"New" NMM 0.60.0a feature

[Mister X]

Heyho,

just wanted to ask, how do you interpret the description of the "profiling" in the NMM 0.60.0a news?

I understood it like that you can fiddle up an working mod list (similar to MO) and then upload a list of the installed mods and the order to the Nexus.

So that you are able to tell NMM "Please, my disk crashed, be so kind as to download and install the mods following the latest uploaded instructions. I'll come back in two hours ..." and NMM can build up a specific mod list autonomic.

 

How did you get it? As a stunning new possibility or just an implementation of a feature that MO got 2 years ago?

[blabba]

Their catching up to MO.

 

The whole upload and download modlist things onto nexus is just a "feature" they say could be possible in the future.

 

But IMHO, with their level of webdev experience (Read: none) by the time they implement that feature it'll be another 2-4 years and huge downtimes that will make the rest of us rage.

And it probably won't work right on their first attempt.

[DoctaSax]

Time will tell if NMM profiling will be done well but I'm not particularly thrilled by how they sell people the idea that you can download entire install orders in one go, have them all sorted in one go, and be on your way to play, as if it doesn't take time, insight and effort to get a fully modded game to run smoothly on your machine.

For me, profiling MO-style helps with taking control over that process, so I think it's rather poor to advertize NMM profiling as a way of taking shortcuts so that you don't have to learn anything about anything. It rewards the exact attitudes that drive modders crazy.

[Ashal]

Sounds like a good idea on paper, but will likely be horrible in practice.

 

There is to many small things that you only get from installing them individually and reading the instructions that just downloading a big list of mods and installing them automatically is likely to have bad results for most users with just a moderate amount of mods. Specific download instructions such as ini alterations, mods that have separated files in the archive that you're supposed to manually pick from, optional files linked from the same nexusmods page, certain mods needing to be installed before or after other mods. Things I doubt this profiling would be able to reliably track and handle. And even if they did pull it off, seems like an excessive amount of work for what's ultimately a niche problem.

[Groovtama]

If it is as good as the update feature, they can leave the old version...

[Angrybird]

Looooool, is all I have to say.

[ElectricSheep]

Seems like something that most will find unnecessary, something that will take tremendous amount of work to execute and something that's impossible to execute properly. Seems like Nexus.

[LeoSky]

MO is still better 90% of the time

[Duoleb The Chosen]

they should fix the CTD's every time when you download or install a mod

[Redflyingmonkey]

Always do complicated and always struggle to prove the very obvious "what can't be done can't be done" : first rule of the lambda "successful" business ... If they do pull it off and it works before the internet dies of old age, we'll look like silly cunts though.

[Rayblue]

I still find it despicable that some people want "one-click" modding, when it really does take a lot of work under the hood to make a modded game stable,beautiful and playable.

[RitualClarity]

Humm.. NMM is getting what MO has had since the beginning...

 

And... it is still ALPHA... Not even talking about even beginning to have published profile list work. They haven't even gotten the profiles out of Alpha... It is going to be a long wait.

[van_gelis]

I am a huge fan of nexus site i have an account there since 5000 member number or so, so a concentrated review is in order.
Well there are two points of view about this new version .
Either you like to bang you're head against the wall cause you like it -yes i should post an image of me here - or because you didn't know better and you fall on to the wall with your head either way it's painful and the wall stays.

[RitualClarity]

Avoid it all and just use MO.. .. it has had profiles and more since the beginning. Now. If you are a newer user and need a very simple dead easy way to install Nexus mods (and many here) then NMM is the one that you should use and I do applaud the inclusion of the Profile feature as I believe it will become standard feature in all mod managers in the future. There are many individuals I know in RL that mod and they use NMM and love it. They aren't willing to go the extra effort and work to convert to MO or figure out how to get the stuff to work. Adding Profiles makes it a very good option for them as they get one of the major features that previously only available for MO users.

 

I agree with some of the post above about the Profile download option which they haven't done yet where it might not work as good as advertised when it is created. However if it does get done and is reliable even for just basic configurations (not the indepth customized mods that many here create with some files from this and some from that etc.) where a group of mods are installed for the users to provide a nice start. (Kind of like Goophers tutorial on Skyrim used as a starting point) That would be awesome and not something that is available anywhere else.

[prideslayer]

If you could share the actual profiles (the files themselves, not just a load order/modlist) then I'd be all for it. Getting a working modlist setup, especially in skyrim, is absolute nightmare fuel. Since it certainly WON'T have such a feature, it's next to useless.

 

Your custom modlist and load order isn't possibly going to work right when you've cleaned mods in TESEdit or created a patch, and even if you don't do any of that, it's probably going to break when any of the mods in your list have been updated by their authors unless nexus implements some kind of RCS 'history' so that not only is your exact modlist used, but the exact same versions of those mods -- even if they've been updated or removed since then.

 

Which leads us to all the mods that aren't mod manager friendly thanks to lazy asshole modders who can't be bothered to make an install script or just provide different "manager ready" downloads for each of their options -- instead just jamming everything into one big archive and then giving some byzantine list of instructions on how to install it copying these files from here, those from there, etc.

 

They say they've been working on it for a year, and in an entire year they haven't figured out that this isn't going to work properly.

 

They also say that once 0.60 is released, no more updates to 0.5x will be coming. Looks like I may have to fork NMM too at some point, maybe abandon FOMM. Depends on what will be easier -- adding skyrim etc. to FOMM, or forking NMM.

[RitualClarity]

Forking NMM might be easier. I believe you stated it was pretty clean code wise inside it is open source.  Might be easier being newer to make these added changes. I supports Skryrim, Fallout and I believe the Oblivion mods as well already. ( If my memory served me correctly I think I used it the time before last when I attempted to use Oblivion. ). If you forked it you could add the various features you have been working on for FOMM and perhaps the Profile feature as well. Make it LMM for Lovers Mod manager.. LOL

 

As for using NMM.  It worked pretty good when I used it, I just didn't like what I thought it was doing in the background this was when Nexus was rumored to have virus be uploaded into mods that were already there. (not some new mod that came from someone infected. I can understand that) Not to mention all those hacking and such. I thought it be safer using something that wasn't such a big target... Otherwise than that it seems to work just fine as advertised which is all I can expect it to do. I did like the idea that I could install all my mods using the same manager.. That I thought was cool.

[prideslayer]

I'm using NMM for Skyrim without issues, there's been no 'spying' that I've seen or anything like that. I don't allow it to auto-update though. For a while I ran a 'custom' version that just removed the "not a premium member :(" frowny face at the bottom. I don't remember how clean the code was overall, but I remember it being cleaner than FOMMs certainly. They learned a lot during FOMM development, which is to be expected.

 

The only reason I'm even considering forking it is due to that workload. To be true to my own needs, I really want to keep the fomod c# scripting stuff in place, and that means whatever I call it (we'd settled on 'GeMM' -- that is FOMMs internal name to begin with, for Gamebryo engine I think) it must be written in C# -- a language I have no experience without outside of FOMM.

 

Going to a language I know better means ditching support for the C# install scripts like sexouts, though supporting the XML based ones like tryouts would be easy. My inability to really come to a decision on this is what has me just continuing to plug away on FOMM, and also the fact that more or less FOMM "just works" now. Switching to NMM also has its own 'issues' for me. One thing I hate about FOMM (and NMM) is having to choose a game at startup -- you should be able to easily switch games while the program is running, and manage/launch/etc them all without quitting and starting again. NMM is also fairly buggy in the UI department and I have no idea why. Most of the time whenever I install a mod with it, I have to wiggle the mouse around after it's done to get the X to turn into a checkbox. Right-clicking a mod to change its category often hangs the whole application ("not responding") for a good 20-30 seconds.

 

Fixing these bugs is not high on my wishlist of ways to spend a weekend or longer.

[RitualClarity]

Wouldn't going to a language you know better help with the development of the mod manager? Also couldn't XML based install scripts be used for Sexout as well. I think I see most of the mods I have used having xml scripts.. However I didn't know NMM was buggy now. When I used it before it was reliable. didn't do as much as it does now but it worked fairly well. It never actually bothered me having to shut down the manager to change the game.

 

Oh give MO a spin for Skyrim. It was the only manager that tamed my Skyrim to where I could stand to play the game. There are a few contributors and moderators that have or are actually using it. it would be interesting to hear your take on the manager after you had a change to really give it a serious run down.

[prideslayer]

NMMs bugs all seem to be centered around the UI, not it's ability to manage mods and keep the data dir sane, thankfully. As such, I can suffer through them for the time being. Yes, moving to another language would speed things up dramatically, but there are things I can't do with XML that I the sexout installer does because it's just one step away from being a program all its own. It's just a C# script, but it's one being run by a program written in C# and can do basically anything FOMM can do.

 

The main thing the script does right now that XML can't do is reorder mods other than itself. When you install it with FOMM (and maybe NMM too? I believe it still runs the FOMM C# scripts?) it puts Sexout, SCR (and even defunct SSR), Slavery, and Legion in the right order if they're present. It also checks that Slavery is present if you have Legion. Not as important since Slavery started shipping with sexout, but complex conditional logic like that is something the XML can't do -- or I read the instructions wrong, which happens.

 

I eventually intended to even have it check for NVSE, NX, and MCM and do some other clever things. FOMM itself can (well could, probably broken right now) do the NVSE check, but not the rest.

 

I'm considering the possibility anyway. I actually don't know how many mods out there with complex installers are actually using the C# scripting vs. the XML, but I suspect my prejudice as a programmer has biased me into thinking more people use the C# way than actually do. If there aren't really any important mods using it, I'll see about converting Sexout, and maybe even finally getting the wrye/BAIN compatibility I promised a year ago done. Of course I hear that MO has some kind of ini file that I should make as well.....

[RitualClarity]

I am not as skilled or as knowledgeable as you are on the various mods and differences between scripting programs. You have given me some added info on xml and C# I hadn't had before. I knew there were limits and such and C# is pretty much as flexible as possible in the scripting languages available. So I can be mistaken with the scripts being used to install mods but so far most seem to be xml if anything at all. However of course those are only related to those that I have been using and just now recently breaking apart to learn how they tick.

 

 

but there are things I can't do with XML that I the sexout installer does because it's just one step away from being a program all its own. It's just a C# script, but it's one being run by a program written in C# and can do basically anything FOMM can do.

Shame it wasn't just a program that could be run for those individuals to create the install scripts themselves using this. . Imagine:

1. Select the various mods and/or resources into a folder
2. Then just plugs in the various mods and/or Resources in the order they want installed from a list.
3. A panel to check for list of mods and small dialogue panel to give when anything critical fails.
4. A Check list and make sure mods ordered properly according to the list provided by the program (see BOSS)
5. click run.
6. program creates the various scripts to create the new mod.

Something so simple that even an Alien could use it. It would be its own mini mod manager.. maybe called a pre-mod manager.. lol.

Yes this is almost the way it is now so far as I understand it but not quite there unless I am missing something. Then more can use the power of C# and perhaps even the lazy modders that use convoluted and confusing install instructions like move file to here then that to there and if you want this move this here and those there. etc. The mod creator would just create mini modules with a selection of various options. ..

 

yes I am still learning about this..

[Duoleb The Chosen]

did someone tested it with oblivion and morrowind?

[Osiris1]

    The primary issue with making clients like NMM do all the work for  you from a coding perspective is that you must do what is impossible to do:  You must prepare for all of the distinct and unique modding-styles on your file-hosting website, and you must be able to respond to them in an automatic way.  Otherwise, you have issues.  For example, the moment a mod author has not made their mod specifically to work with NMM, NMM becomes useless.  This wouldn't be problematic for someone with veteran modding experience, but if people use NMM the way the owner seems to want them to, which is as a substitute for actual modding knowledge, then that will literally be the end of the road for new users.

 

    Modding is dynamic, not static, and that is an automated program's worst enemy.  It's alright if you can prepare for every or even most eventualities, but it's unnecessarily complex for users to use.  I don't believe the one-click setup is anything more than a pipe dream, unless they plan to provide the installation in the form of pre-defined mod lists.  Then they could do that...but that means the user will not have any say in what mods are in that list, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of using NMM. 

 

    As someone who loves to fine-tailor their games into being exactly what they want it to be, NMM is like the plague to me.  Not to mention it only works on the Nexus, and I find that steam workshop and LL are having much more quality and innovative mods being made than the Nexus is.  It's like the difference between building your own nice house or having an automatic robot build a bedazzled trailer-house.  You take the trailer because you like seeing the shiny robot do cool things, but you'd never live in it.

 

[prideslayer]

Osiris I think you miss the point of what they're trying to accomplish with it. Including a list of what mods are going to be installed is exactly what it's going to do, and is the entire point. I think the theory is good and if properly implemented it will be a good feature, but I don't trust them to properly implement it.

 

Properly implemented, there is no drawback to a mod manager that doesn't also exist for something like an installshield/innosetup program installer. Do you prefer to install all your programs by making manual registry entries and creating all the directories under "program files" yourself and then copying files there? This is all a mod manager is, at its core.

[Osiris1]

Osiris I think you miss the point of what they're trying to accomplish with it. Including a list of what mods are going to be installed is exactly what it's going to do, and is the entire point. I think the theory is good and if properly implemented it will be a good feature, but I don't trust them to properly implement it.

 

Properly implemented, there is no drawback to a mod manager that doesn't also exist for something like an installshield/innosetup program installer. Do you prefer to install all your programs by making manual registry entries and creating all the directories under "program files" yourself and then copying files there? This is all a mod manager is, at its core.

 

    I understand that including the list is their intent, I just believe that they will probably do it poorly.  I also believe NMM handles mod installation poorly, since I've tried it and found it very lacking in terms of being able to install different files.

[prideslayer]

Well that's the core of the issue. If they do it right, it can work beautifully. If they do it wrong, as we all suspect, it will probably barely work at all. The biggest problem I have personally with NMM is the GUI, it's just so fuckedup. I only use it for skyrim but I've lost count of the number of times it's become out of sync with reality and I've had to just quit and restart to stop it lying.

 

FOMM marches on, in any case.