state of HDT now

[gtcard]

so i noticed more or less for the past 6 months or so, there's been a sudden surge in the number of hdt-smp outfits coming out of chinese modder sites 3dm and 9dm. my understanding of the sudden proliferation is because smp is more accessible than hdt-pe, which required hct to rig. however, i'm pretty sure every single smp mod released recently came from the chinese sites, so i'm wondering if there's any specific reason for that. is the chinese modding community the only ones who are interested in rigging for smp? are they the only ones capable? or are they simply the only ones who are releasing it publicly?

 

i was hoping given the amount of time smp had to mature, there'd be more mods to take advantage of it--the physics are really really good with smp. i've used hdt-pe for ages, and i still do, but since i saw how well smp worked, i started rerigging every hdt-pe outfit i had with smp via meshrigger, provided i have a smp mesh with a similar shape. it's not perfect, but it's still miles better than when the same mesh used hdt-pe. skirts have proper collision with thighs, flutter properly when turning--it's just great. 

 

so is it a learning curve thing? i'm not entirely certain, but i think all the recent smp clothes from 3dm/9dm are released by 1 or 2 modders also. i just figured if the biggest hurdle before was accessibility to the tools, then the adoption of smp should be much quicker than it is now, since it doesn't require hct anymore. is it a lack of interest?

[darkevilhum]

More like complacency due to HDT coming first and covering all the basic user/modder needs in regards to physics. Right now the only people really delving into SMP are the ones willing to get their hands dirty or those who fancy a change and use one of the All in One Packs.

 

Producing content with HDT in the first place was still a select number of modders who either were willing to get all the shit together or already had a good knowledge base when it comes to meshes and some 3D Software. That number ofcourse dwindles to near nothing with SMP as it came after and while its difficult to make newer HDT stuff, there is already plenty.

 

Is a shame for sure, SMP being miles superior.

[swmas]

1 hour ago, darkevilhum said:

More like complacency due to HDT coming first and covering all the basic user/modder needs in regards to physics. Right now the only people really delving into SMP are the ones willing to get their hands dirty or those who fancy a change and use one of the All in One Packs.

 

Producing content with HDT in the first place was still a select number of modders who either were willing to get all the shit together or already had a good knowledge base when it comes to meshes and some 3D Software. That number ofcourse dwindles to near nothing with SMP as it came after and while its difficult to make newer HDT stuff, there is already plenty.

 

Is a shame for sure, SMP being miles superior.

How is it superior when is so hard to run hardware-wise?

[27X]

It's superior because it runs better and does FAR more accurate and realistic collisions.

 

Because you don't know how to use it means quite literally nothing.

 

A bullet train is faster than a car so in terms of speed, it is factually  superior, period. That other fact that you don't know how to operate a bullet train is utterly immaterial.

 

PE is dead, and won't be coming back, and you can thank M$ for that.

 

Second of all exactly two people in the western skyrim sphere have offered public expertise on advancing PE to its logical conclusion, and neither of them have ever posted anything on the nexus, so this "hard to run" premise of yours doesn't actually exist, because the three people making AIO PE packs haven't a clue, and have demonstrated as such repeatedly, meanwhile the sole person making SMP packs has openly committed himself to learning all he can and passing it on, he works openly with people he can't stand to make sure everybody gets both a good understanding (provided you can read) and a open buffet of sampled and assembled materials.

 

Thirdly chinese modders getting into sex stuff is a dicey proposition for them so the onus in that category will be always be on this side of the pond anyway.

 

SMP uses an open source library, does faster calculations, and doesn't have to rely on static rigidbodies for collisions or interaction and is therefore better in every way than PE, the last remaining pseudobarrier is hair, and after that PE is completely redundant.

 

 

Quote

so is it a learning curve thing?

 

Given that people still can't even install SMP despite having literal pictures with arrows says yes. Skyrim users have also grown, thanks to the Sims community cross pollination, rather unrealistic expectations that said mod providers have an obligation to individually hand hold them through every part of said process, when there is no such animal of the kind existent.

[darkevilhum]

8 hours ago, swmas said:

How is it superior when is so hard to run hardware-wise?

Hardware wise I'm not sure what you mean. I ran SMP fine on a near 5 year old PC. Up until last year when I upgraded my GPU, but otherwise still a 5 year old machine. Otherwise it's pretty much how 27X dropped it. Get your hands dirty 'till it works.

 

It's the first and most off putting step that many seem to either shy away from or fail miserably at. Hence the never ending flow of 'SMP is too hard on my system' complaints because people just give up before getting stuck into it. It's not hard to find the required information either, it's all contained in a single post by prZ. I always advise anyone looking to switch to SMP to just read a little, tinker a little, reap the benefits or don't try at all if you arn't willing to put in the effort.

 

This 'effort' barrier again being pretty much the primary answer to your original post.

[swmas]

5 hours ago, darkevilhum said:

Hardware wise I'm not sure what you mean. I ran SMP fine on a near 5 year old PC. Up until last year when I upgraded my GPU, but otherwise still a 5 year old machine. Otherwise it's pretty much how 27X dropped it. Get your hands dirty 'till it works.

 

It's the first and most off putting step that many seem to either shy away from or fail miserably at. Hence the never ending flow of 'SMP is too hard on my system' complaints because people just give up before getting stuck into it. It's not hard to find the required information either, it's all contained in a single post by prZ. I always advise anyone looking to switch to SMP to just read a little, tinker a little, reap the benefits or don't try at all if you arn't willing to put in the effort.

 

This 'effort' barrier again being pretty much the primary answer to your original post.

When I hear 20 fps on a gtx1080 I back down. Also the processor has to support opencl something that only 7th gen and up processors can do, was kabby lake out 5 years ago?

Even if that is required only for collisions... well I'd rather have collisions.

[darkevilhum]

5 hours ago, swmas said:

When I hear 20 fps on a gtx1080 I back down. Also the processor has to support opencl something that only 7th gen and up processors can do, was kabby lake out 5 years ago?

Even if that is required only for collisions... well I'd rather have collisions.

The version of opencl is important too, which I learned recently, as I ran SMP as I said on an older machine with a 6th gen nvidia gpu with collisions etc (6th gen nvidia supports an older version of opencl but not a newer I believe). But yeah, when you hear stuff like '20 fps gtx1080', it's just people who don't know what they're doing. As long as you have opencl via your gpu and you're willing to read a bit.

 

I currently run a full SMP enabled body (almost full, physics and collisions on breast, butt, vagina, calves, thighs, upper arms, belly, (hands and feet = collisions only) just none for forearms) and I have a stable 40fps in exterior cells with a fairly high number of npcs in render distance, and a flat 60 fps for interiors with any number of npcs, i do see some stutter if i enter a tavern and it pops in about 30 npcs at once from some tavern populating mod, but that only lasts a few moments as I enter.

 

I keep reiterating my setup and my performance because people get mislead by all those who arn't willing to put in the effort, instead they download some SMP stuff, throw it in, have no fps and then go on a complaining rant. And I'm not even that well versed in SMP and the mechanical side of things, I just peruse XMLs and nifs when I want to tweak. People like 27X have much heavier physics setups and still achieve a stable gameplay environment.

[27X]

6 hours ago, swmas said:

When I hear 20 fps on a gtx1080 I back down. Also the processor has to support opencl something that only 7th gen and up processors can do, was kabby lake out 5 years ago?

Even if that is required only for collisions... well I'd rather have collisions.

You clearly haven't read anything actually and factually related to the subject.

 

Again, you not knowing what you're doing and the subject itself are two completely unrelated things.

[swmas]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

You clearly haven't read anything actually and factually related to the subject.

 

Again, you not knowing what you're doing and the subject itself are two completely unrelated things.

I have you on the ignore list for a while. I'm sorry I made an exception to read this post.

[swmas]

2 hours ago, darkevilhum said:

The version of opencl is important too, which I learned recently, as I ran SMP as I said on an older machine with a 6th gen nvidia gpu with collisions etc (6th gen nvidia supports an older version of opencl but not a newer I believe). But yeah, when you hear stuff like '20 fps gtx1080', it's just people who don't know what they're doing. As long as you have opencl via your gpu and you're willing to read a bit.

 

I currently run a full SMP enabled body (almost full, physics and collisions on breast, butt, vagina, calves, thighs, upper arms, belly, (hands and feet = collisions only) just none for forearms) and I have a stable 40fps in exterior cells with a fairly high number of npcs in render distance, and a flat 60 fps for interiors with any number of npcs, i do see some stutter if i enter a tavern and it pops in about 30 npcs at once from some tavern populating mod, but that only lasts a few moments as I enter.

 

I keep reiterating my setup and my performance because people get mislead by all those who arn't willing to put in the effort, instead they download some SMP stuff, throw it in, have no fps and then go on a complaining rant. And I'm not even that well versed in SMP and the mechanical side of things, I just peruse XMLs and nifs when I want to tweak. People like 27X have much heavier physics setups and still achieve a stable gameplay environment.

Regardless, until it's as easy to use and well supported, saying everyone should use it is a stretch.

Google translating chinese sites and xml editing is something not many are eager to do. Until it is main stream it's not superior.

[jimmywon34]

5 hours ago, darkevilhum said:

The version of opencl is important too, which I learned recently, as I ran SMP as I said on an older machine with a 6th gen nvidia gpu with collisions etc (6th gen nvidia supports an older version of opencl but not a newer I believe). But yeah, when you hear stuff like '20 fps gtx1080', it's just people who don't know what they're doing. As long as you have opencl via your gpu and you're willing to read a bit.

 

I currently run a full SMP enabled body (almost full, physics and collisions on breast, butt, vagina, calves, thighs, upper arms, belly, (hands and feet = collisions only) just none for forearms) and I have a stable 40fps in exterior cells with a fairly high number of npcs in render distance, and a flat 60 fps for interiors with any number of npcs, i do see some stutter if i enter a tavern and it pops in about 30 npcs at once from some tavern populating mod, but that only lasts a few moments as I enter.

 

I keep reiterating my setup and my performance because people get mislead by all those who arn't willing to put in the effort, instead they download some SMP stuff, throw it in, have no fps and then go on a complaining rant. And I'm not even that well versed in SMP and the mechanical side of things, I just peruse XMLs and nifs when I want to tweak. People like 27X have much heavier physics setups and still achieve a stable gameplay environment.

i'm thinking of taking another stab at hdt smp, I installed it in both oldrim and SSE and there is physics certainly but they're not very good, so perhaps I did something wrong. or is the fact that I installed it and have the physics mean my system already has openCL?

 

which openCL version do I need to install for an i5 4690k and gtx 980 ti? do you know by chance? i';m also running windows 10 64 bit.

 

in the support thread for oldrim there is two links but I have no clue what I need. I assume the openCL version will be the same for SSE and oldrim right?

 

https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/opencl-drivers

 

https://developer.nvidia.com/opencl

[darkevilhum]

8 hours ago, swmas said:

Regardless, until it's as easy to use and well supported, saying everyone should use it is a stretch.

Google translating chinese sites and xml editing is something not many are eager to do. Until it is main stream it's not superior.

No one said everyone should use it. Infact I literally said, if you arn't willing to mingle a little, then stick to HDT where it's as easy and a few clicks to install.

SMP is also supported in terms of development. HDT has no more support as it's died out due to HCT not being supported anymore.

 

And I'm not sure what you mean google translating chinese sites. All the info anyone needs is in a single thread right here on LL. Your original post was basically asking why it isn't the main physics solution. The simple answer is, it came second and it's not a 'install and work perfect' solution. It's a 'install and tweak to your liking and hardware' solution.

 

As far as physics simulation goes, it's factually superior as 27X has stated, I get his frustration, we're having to say the same stuff across multiple threads to multiple people who you would think are all incapable of reading. But don't take his posts as bashing but rather him reaching out from behind his frustration to give you some insight.

 

If you want superior physics and collisions, put in the effort. If not, then don't. All we can do at this point is let you know, yes SMP is better, yes it does require some DIY, and yes it can be used in game with stable performance. Because, an All In One solution + thread discussing every problem conceivable and tweaking discussions already exists.

[darkevilhum]

6 hours ago, jimmywon34 said:

i'm thinking of taking another stab at hdt smp, I installed it in both oldrim and SSE and there is physics certainly but they're not very good, so perhaps I did something wrong. or is the fact that I installed it and have the physics mean my system already has openCL?

 

which openCL version do I need to install for an i5 4690k and gtx 980 ti? do you know by chance? i';m also running windows 10 64 bit.

 

in the support thread for oldrim there is two links but I have no clue what I need. I assume the openCL version will be the same for SSE and oldrim right?

 

https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/opencl-drivers

 

https://developer.nvidia.com/opencl

If you're really concerned, I'd ask in the main SMP thread, but i would try installing it first and see what you do and don't have (bounce/collisions), you should be fine. I've never actually had to manually install openCL, just luckily always used a GPU that was compatible. https://www.loverslab.com/topic/68009-all-in-one-hdtskinnedmeshphysics-setup-20b-fomod/ 

[swmas]

7 hours ago, darkevilhum said:

No one said everyone should use it. Infact I literally said, if you arn't willing to mingle a little, then stick to HDT where it's as easy and a few clicks to install.

SMP is also supported in terms of development. HDT has no more support as it's died out due to HCT not being supported anymore.

 

And I'm not sure what you mean google translating chinese sites. All the info anyone needs is in a single thread right here on LL. Your original post was basically asking why it isn't the main physics solution. The simple answer is, it came second and it's not a 'install and work perfect' solution. It's a 'install and tweak to your liking and hardware' solution.

 

As far as physics simulation goes, it's factually superior as 27X has stated, I get his frustration, we're having to say the same stuff across multiple threads to multiple people who you would think are all incapable of reading. But don't take his posts as bashing but rather him reaching out from behind his frustration to give you some insight.

 

If you want superior physics and collisions, put in the effort. If not, then don't. All we can do at this point is let you know, yes SMP is better, yes it does require some DIY, and yes it can be used in game with stable performance. Because, an All In One solution + thread discussing every problem conceivable and tweaking discussions already exists.

You're pretty cool for giving all these instructions. thanks! I'm not trying to debate you or nothing if that what I sounded like obviously I don't know much about the subject, I'm just saying not everybody can do all that work. I don't eve dare to use the JFF tool for hdt. About the opencl requirements where to look to see gpu compatibility I hear that only 10 series support it am I right? What thread here on LL you mean?

 

EDIT: If this is the thread https://www.loverslab.com/topic/68009-all-in-one-hdtskinnedmeshphysics-setup-20b-fomod/

Isn't your advice to not just use a premade one and tweak it ourselves? The guide says you will get memory leak and crash eventually which kinda kills the excitement for me. How long do you play before crashing?

[darkevilhum]

9 hours ago, swmas said:

You're pretty cool for giving all these instructions. thanks! I'm not trying to debate you or nothing if that what I sounded like obviously I don't know much about the subject, I'm just saying not everybody can do all that work. I don't eve dare to use the JFF tool for hdt. About the opencl requirements where to look to see gpu compatibility I hear that only 10 series support it am I right? What thread here on LL you mean?

 

EDIT: If this is the thread https://www.loverslab.com/topic/68009-all-in-one-hdtskinnedmeshphysics-setup-20b-fomod/

Isn't your advice to not just use a premade one and tweak it ourselves? The guide says you will get memory leak and crash eventually which kinda kills the excitement for me. How long do you play before crashing?

Yep that's the thread. The memory leaks 'can' happen, depending on your setup and how heavy it is, for example, super realistic ENB, lots of bouncing etc. For me, I play usually 3-6 hours and don't crash. So it just depends. 

( I run KounterVibe ENB max settings ).

 

I will check now, but I know 100% that 10 series and 6 series support openCL. https://streamhpc.com/blog/2011-12-29/opencl-hardware-support/ Scroll down a bit to find the GPUs.

 

And yes  JFF can be really confusing for HDT, SMP is much easier to edit xmls. 

[gtcard]

i'm using pe and smp together and there's no perceptible hit to my performance. any slowdown i experience is usually due to memory leak, since it slows waaaay down, like 1-2 fps and always happens when i equip a smp outfit (i use SL Utility scripts to automatically change outfits a lot). i know i shouldn't use smp and pe together but i'm not even sure how to begin to transition fully from one over to the other. i'm using PE solely for the ahri hair and the vagina physics. honestly it works well enough, plus i already rigged every single outfit with hdt vagina so that the labia opens with and without clothes on. that being said the reason i asked why there isn't an obvious scene for smp isn't for the body physics, but mainly for the clothing physics. PE cannot even come close to smp in that regard. i'm just really curious about why there's this sudden surge of clothing coming out of 9dm, all with smp skeleton rigs and xml for physics. it's become something of an expectation. if you check eiheispot or sky tm you'll probably know what i'm talking about--if the source link is 9dm, there's a pretty good chance the outfit is smp rigged. any other source and it's pretty much hdt-high heels and boob jiggles at best lol. so smp rigging feels like it's almost second nature to the chinese modders, and i'm wondering why that is. 

 

i will point out one huge advantage i've notice with smp, other than the fluid physics--and that's the problem with followers disappearing when they are equipped with hdt-pe. with my setup, they do not have that issue with smp outfits. 

[gtcard]

there's a video on youtube from clonereal with a smp rig of the french maid outfit from the nexus. it's the same outfit, but if you have the hdt-pe one from the nexus, you can clearly see the difference in the physics. i'm talking about just the skirt, never mind the fact that the bow in the back and the choker all have their own collision physics. and that's what i'm seeing--more fluid physics and more pieces of the outfit being rigged when it comes to smp. with hdt-pe, it's a miracle to see anything move at all, since the term hdt has been so diluted to mean just regular standard breast jiggle. with smp full mesh physics is almost a given.

 

honestly, i think smp is worth the effort to get working. i stuck with pe for so long because it worked well enough, but it was always lacking because clothing was spazzing all the time, and even when they didn't, the movement just wasn't natural. on clothing, hdt-pe felt like physics for the sake of just having physics, and not realism. after trying a single smp mesh, it was like night and day. i think 27x pointed it out the chinese modders didn't really delve too deeply into the sex parts of smp on public forums, which explains why almost all of the smp clothing from there don't have a working vagina rig. i liked smp so much after trying it out, i made the effort to figure out some homebrew way to add the hdt-pe vagina to all the smp outfit meshes i have, while retaining the collisions that the body makes with the outfits. it wasn't easy since i only have a barely functional understanding of how hdt-pe works, and i still can't wrap my head around smp. it was mostly trial and error, but i managed to get them to play nice together. and as i said before, it's totally worth the effort. 

[gtcard]

which brings me again to my main point of why this system, which is just plain better, and in theory more accessible than pe, isn't more widely adopted? the rate at which the chinese modders are rigging smp bones onto outfits and the complexity of those rigs lead me to believe that smp is also easier to implement than hdt-pe. so it kind of sucks to not see smp explode into a scene, or at least more people taking stabs at making it work. i still see the periodic hdt-pe outfit released outside of chinese forums, but i've yet to see a single smp outfit release that isn't from the chinese forums. they can be out there, sure, but i'd expect them to be more visible if the adoption rate was anywhere close to hdt-pe--which to be fair, was minuscule to begin with. but i always thought that was due to HCT's inaccessibility, which is essentially addressed with smp, a whole new system that doesn't require proprietary tools. unfortunately that doesn't seem to have helped with motivating more people to experiment with the system. 

[SassaAria]

On 21/01/2018 at 3:52 AM, gtcard said:

which brings me again to my main point of why this (SMP) system, which is just plain better, and in theory more accessible than pe, isn't more widely adopted?

here's one opinion, as someone who (for now) makes SMP outfits privately (long post)

Spoiler

 

 

(Made the SMP BSLs by the way for the AIO, and other lil contributions at LL, so I'm 99% ahead of most other LL posters in terms of sharing, IMO)

 

to make SMP outfits, the skills needed are:

(1) make new bones (including roll, pitch and yaw settings)

(2) weightpaint or skin the mesh to these bones , which includes allowing for transition areas

(3) some outfits need denser meshes in places inorder to allow for proper deform, which means not just making higher topo but sometimes separating out mesh into other nitrishapes, and adding bones for them

(4) People want Bodyslide (BSL) and with custom bones it's a bit finicky, if not bitchy (Maybe Caliente and Ousionious will address this in future updates)

(5) know WTF your doing with XML settings and making it different sets for different users (realistic vs more stylistic or dramatic). 

XML examples with videos and XMLs showing how they work together are non-existent. 

I mean frick, no one has openly even talked about LERP in SMP-XML, which is a great tool for outfits.

 

These skills as a group require both higher technical and artsy orientations.

Less likely to find in one person.

Teams of people will likely work better.

 

Also, If i maybe so bold, I think a big part of the problem all comes down to this in your OP with the underlined part specifically>

"i was hoping given the amount of time smp had to mature, there'd be more mods to take advantage of it--the physics are really really good with smp."

99% of users waiting for others seems a common theme.  Just means you have to wait longer util someone skilled and determined enough comes along to pick up the torch.

 

If you're serious about getting SMP outfits going, then can only suggest

Start a team of  like-minded people that enjoy spending tons of hours getting up to speed and then posting it for free and maintaining it

and start making and sharing XML videos if you really want to see why this is a "higher level of demanding" on skills.

 

As much as Ousnious is every once in a while maligned by some for this or that, he (and Caliente) still does all this stuff for free and offers a very sophisticated package in BSL/OS to achieve all this, and tries to help out over the years.  I personally stick with Oldrim and UNNP because ...more freedom and options should i decide to release publically.

Maybe with his interest in SMP-SSE for Calientes and his new CBBE-SSE body, you will see new conveniences re: adding customs bones?  which is essential for more SMP outfits.

Have fun!

 

 

Edit:  almost didn't reply to this thread, cause of the title of thread.

Over time seems HDT became the shortened nickname for HDT-PE, cause that's how it seemed to be used by many.

SMP outfits in the thread title is more inviting, for whatever that suggestion is worth lol

 

 

[gtcard]

6 hours ago, SassaAria said:

XML examples with videos and XMLs showing how they work together are non-existent. 

i think this is a really huge point. i learn from trial and error through experience, and although i'm not even going to call myself a modder, i did gain enough basic knowledge to fiddle around with hdt bones to get the results i want, specifically as you said, with regards to outfits. there are very few tutorials on how to rig an outfit with regular hdt-pe (i remember a few on youtube using HCT, but i couldn't follow along since i don't have HCT), and there are literally 0 video tutorials on how to begin to apply smp. the points you list are all valid and do add up to a very high level of skill required from an individual, especially someone with absolutely no knowledge of how to create 3D models. however, i would imagine an outfit author will have at least half of that down, specifically the weightpainting since as far as i understand it, that dictates how the mesh conforms to bone movement. that should mean the learning curve isn't as steep for someone who can already create outfits and are familiar with adding bones. to someone with a background of creating 3D models, learning smp shouldn't be a process from scratch, but more of an extension of what they already know. taking this a bit further, i will reasonably assume that it's possible for an author with absolutely 0 knowledge of smp to create an outfit, rig extra bones along parts that they want to move, paint them, and release the outfit as it is. i want to say the next step is someone else familiar with smp can take this mesh, and create an xml to control those extra bones. however this is where it becomes fuzzy for me, because i don't understand HOW those xmls are created. looking at the data inside them, i don't think someone actually types the whole thing out from scratch within notepad. i assume most of it is machine generated, but with what? at what point of the creation process does the xml with smp data get created?

 

for me, that's what's keeping me from actually experimenting with smp. i have 2 end products--a mesh, and a xml. i don't have any idea how one lead to the other, and i have no resources to tap to find that out. the only thing i can do is literally graft a smp bone right from one outfit into another, attach the xml, and hope they play nice together. i'd say 75% of the time it works well enough for me, which is a whole lot better than 0. i guess it's plausible to assume that's also the case with other people, specifically for the reason you mentioned: lack of examples showing how they work together.

 

however, let's assume the reason hdt-pe growth was stunted because of the tool's inaccessibility. with smp, that issue should have been solved. however, there's still a dearth of people trying their hand at making smp rigs, and if i am going to make a huge assumption right now, i would assume the ones who are trying out smp are the same ones who were willing to play around with hdt-pe in the first place. so has it always been a learning curve thing, and had nothing to do with accessibility? is it because of a lack of industry value for smp? i mean people are certainly willing to whip themselves into shape to learn something if it promises satisfactory ROI. it can also be people are playing with smp in private, such as yourself.

 

i guess in the end, knowing the reason why people aren't using smp isn't going to change the fact that it's just not proliferating as much as i hoped it would. i'm just really bummed that that is the case, and was wondering why there's a sudden surge of smp outfits coming out of the chinese forums--in fact, just off the top of my head, i think there are now more smp outfits than there are hdt outfits. i was hopeful that the reason for that is because smp is just becoming popular to the point of adoption, but since they all came from the chinese forums, and are likely from just a handful of authors, then that just tells me this is a passing growth burst, and will die down as soon as those few people lose interest. 

 

just to throw it out there: i think given the state of hdt now--with how fluid the physics are and how few people are taking advantage of smp in public--i think there is certainly going to be demand for custom made smp rigs, if someone were to start a patreon. just saying. 

[SassaAria]

15 hours ago, gtcard said:

and create an xml to control those extra bones. however this is where it becomes fuzzy for me, because i don't understand HOW those xmls are created. looking at the data inside them, i don't think someone actually types the whole thing out from scratch within notepad. i assume most of it is machine generated, but with what? at what point of the creation process does the xml with smp data get created?

 

what i do, is exactly that.

you use an existing XML, copying and pasting chunks and then modifying various references and values

The location of your bone and it's position in the chain of bones is very important.

If you really want to learn, grab any SMP outfit you like and look at bones, weight paints and the xmls.

 

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however, let's assume the reason hdt-pe growth was stunted because of the tool's inaccessibility. with smp, that issue should have been solved. however, there's still a dearth of people trying their hand at making smp rigs, and if i am going to make a huge assumption right now, i would assume the ones who are trying out smp are the same ones who were willing to play around with hdt-pe in the first place. so has it always been a learning curve thing, and had nothing to do with accessibility? is it because of a lack of industry value for smp? i mean people are certainly willing to whip themselves into shape to learn something if it promises satisfactory ROI. it can also be people are playing with smp in private, such as yourself.

Making an SMP rig takes a special kind of person.

I find it boring AF, but need it before you can make a nice outfit.

 

As for those who are HDT-PE users, and maybe they would move to SMP, you should go ask @Lady Horus or @Bazinga and see what they say.

Of all the LL users I've seen, those two, at this time, have the personality and higher level technical skills to make SMP outfits (though the new SMP bones may be a technical hurdle), and they share stuff openly.  (if anyone knows anyone else please share)  Though not sure how much into outfits Bazinga is. 

Both of those LL users are still with HDT-Pe.

Just guessing but Lady Horus prbly wasn't keen on the current VERY heavy sexual emphasis that surrounds SMP (totally can understand that if it's one of the reasons).

Other reason maybe Oldrim doesn't have the framework like SSE-64, so means harder to get setup, and fewer users due to hardware.

If SMP outfits stated showing up in Non-Adults Oldrim, things might change?

 

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i guess in the end, knowing the reason why people aren't using smp isn't going to change the fact that it's just not proliferating as much as i hoped it would. i'm just really bummed that that is the case, and was wondering why there's a sudden surge of smp outfits coming out of the chinese forums--in fact, just off the top of my head, i think there are now more smp outfits than there are hdt outfits. i was hopeful that the reason for that is because smp is just becoming popular to the point of adoption, but since they all came from the chinese forums, and are likely from just a handful of authors, then that just tells me this is a passing growth burst, and will die down as soon as those few people lose interest. 

Over time I've seen Chinese technical artists produce very intricate detailed things.

I could attempt to explain the reasons for why that is, but I'd be in danger of generalizing too much.

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just to throw it out there: i think given the state of hdt now--with how fluid the physics are and how few people are taking advantage of smp in public--i think there is certainly going to be demand for custom made smp rigs, if someone were to start a patreon. just saying. 

LOL sign of the times? or a dangerous thing to say at LL?

Further...

Spoiler

 

For such a niche market, the money would be peanuts compared to the time and hassle involved.

Would be better for someone living in a "poorer country" where the exchange rate and living costs makes it more worthwhile.

 

 

Still think if you or others here started getting teams together, you might get something started.

If you have the time and want it bad enough.

[gtcard]

On 2/2/2018 at 12:45 PM, SassaAria said:

LOL sign of the times? or a dangerous thing to say at LL?

i think both actually. the precedent has already been set so there's realistically no going back at this point. as long as there's someone out there receiving compensation for their work via patreon, there will be others who would feel their work deserves the same--the seeds have already been sown so to speak. im not going to argue for it one way or the other because i feel the discussion isn't going to change the outcome. however, i think there are ethical ways to do this, which can drive motivation without being destructive to the  community. specifically, im talking about an early access model used by some authors, but extending it so that authors who receive pledges should also pledge a bit to LL as well. just giving credit where it's due imo.

 

but i digress. i want to see more instances of smp being released, and sitting around waiting hasn't really produced the results i hoped for. i said it with well intentions and i think it's an inevitability going forward.

[SassaAria]

On 03/02/2018 at 2:45 PM, gtcard said:

but i digress. i want to see more instances of smp being released, and sitting around waiting hasn't really produced the results i hoped for. i said it with well intentions and i think it's an inevitability going forward.

You absolutely came across as having best intentions for SMP outfit development.

It was actually a great question and it feels like a timely question.

Which is why I joined in your thread.

 

There's actually more energy at the moment over at the SSE-SMP thread.

Alot of the questions by users makes it feel like they're kinda starting over again and not using everything that is know here.

But "people-come and go", free modding means people need time and abilities to move it forward.

Perhaps with time your hopes and predictions will be right.

But if Bethesda releases a new game with decent modability, guessing many potential SMP modders will migrate over there.

Now is definately the time to create a better environemnt for SMP modding.

[Guest]

On 19.1.2018 at 4:44 PM, swmas said:

Regardless, until it's as easy to use and well supported, saying everyone should use it is a stretch.

Google translating chinese sites and xml editing is something not many are eager to do. Until it is main stream it's not superior.

wrong.

you use the plugin the wrong way, but this is only something you are not able to do.

if you ever visited the 7th class of school you can do those xml edits.

On 21.1.2018 at 10:22 AM, gtcard said:

i'm using pe and smp together and there's no perceptible hit to my performance. any slowdown i experience is usually due to memory leak, since it slows waaaay down, like 1-2 fps and always happens when i equip a smp outfit (i use SL Utility scripts to automatically change outfits a lot). i know i shouldn't use smp and pe together but i'm not even sure how to begin to transition fully from one over to the other. i'm using PE solely for the ahri hair and the vagina physics. honestly it works well enough, plus i already rigged every single outfit with hdt vagina so that the labia opens with and without clothes on. that being said the reason i asked why there isn't an obvious scene for smp isn't for the body physics, but mainly for the clothing physics. PE cannot even come close to smp in that regard. i'm just really curious about why there's this sudden surge of clothing coming out of 9dm, all with smp skeleton rigs and xml for physics. it's become something of an expectation. if you check eiheispot or sky tm you'll probably know what i'm talking about--if the source link is 9dm, there's a pretty good chance the outfit is smp rigged. any other source and it's pretty much hdt-high heels and boob jiggles at best lol. so smp rigging feels like it's almost second nature to the chinese modders, and i'm wondering why that is. 

 

i will point out one huge advantage i've notice with smp, other than the fluid physics--and that's the problem with followers disappearing when they are equipped with hdt-pe. with my setup, they do not have that issue with smp outfits. 

27X, can you shoot me in the head please?

[27X]

I tole you mang.

 

I done tole you.

 

As devil's advocado, SMP will always perform differently because of hardware itself, much less hardware under "see that ______, I lied at the e3 presentation" paradigm so you shouldn't be trying to account for that anyway, as edge cases of work/doesn't work will always exist, much less "oh my feeetissh *family guy noises here*", much less getting baseline performance, much less people doing exactly what the readme says not to do. You can justifiably hate on the chinese, korean and 4 chan waifu/tumblr club for obvious reasons, but one of the caveats is by keeping things private you get to keep your sanity and get all kinds of internet famous while you do it.

 

It's like ENBs, and I don't release ENBeast for the same reason; saying "_____" is the best ENB ever omg FAPFAPFAP with a straight face is kind of amazing considering how many monitors and how many GPUs are on the market, much less how those GPUs and monitors are (not)calibrated and what options are (not) in play on anyone's given system.