Potential New Mouth Mesh? [Thoughts & Tongue Animations?]

[NightroModzz]

Okay, so I finished the mouth part of my full body model and all I have left to do are the eyes (which I may release as a replacement for the default Skyrim eye mesh) before I do retopology. (low poly version)

 

I'm wondering if any of you find it necessary to replace the Skyrim mouth + teeth over some other existing mouth mesh mods. There is also a tongue mod, but is an add-on for animation which probably replaces the head as well during certain animations. I'm wondering if a high poly tongue would make that mod unnecessary? Maybe a mouth mesh that matched the verticies of the human Citrus heads too?

 

If you all do find it necessary and someone is willing to adopt it, I may upload it here as a recourse.

 

 

Note: Will add more detail after I retopologize to fix some weird or not so smooth artifacts by bringing it back into Zbrush, subdivide it, project detail back on to it from the high poly model, then continue to add more detail.

 

 

 

[Naked Ekans]

You don't plan in coming back here later and say you won't release this right?

[NightroModzz]

You don't plan in coming back here later and say you won't release this right?

Well...I never said I would release it. I said I might release it as a recourse. That's why I'm asking questions and wonder if there is any interest for it. So far it doesn't seem likely.

 

I'm more likely to release functional eyes (not a recourse) as a mod after I retopologize it considering that there aren't many tri files to make and just simple rotations of the eyes. Also beast race variants just by morphing the inner edge of the iris.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Naked Ekans]

 

You don't plan in coming back here later and say you won't release this right?

Well...I never said I would release it. I said I might release it as a recourse. That's why I'm asking questions and wonder if there is any interest for it. So far it doesn't seem likely.

 

I'm more likely to release functional eyes (not a recourse) as a mod after I retopologize it considering that there aren't many tri files to make and just simple rotations of the eyes. Also beast race variants just by morphing the inner edge of the iris.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was just a joke about another thread going on here.

 

Now talking seriously, I think the models look great, it would be awesome if they come to be full mods.

 

[Arhon]

Indeed i agree with @naked ekans, the models really look great.

 

They can be released as a full mod or as resources so that other modders can make use of it.

 

The question is, are there gonna be incompatibilities with other eye mods?(Sure its obvious there might be but better ask to make sure).

[NightroModzz]

Indeed i agree with @naked ekans, the models really look great.

 

They can be released as a full mod or as resources so that other modders can make use of it.

 

The question is, are there gonna be incompatibilities with other eye mods?(Sure its obvious there might be but better ask to make sure).

Of course. New textures will need to be made as well. Considering the layer system and the way UVs will be made, making textures for the new mesh should be easier and look better too. The default Skyrim eyes has no layers. 

 

Hopefully I can add a RaceMenu iris morph slider options or in-game mesh switches. That way, one texture can look like many by having the iris or pupil change sizes. maybe if possible, the default eyes can be kept and you can switch meshes in RaceMenu. Similar to how the heads work in "Detailed Khajiit Heads."

[yatol]

that's already this almost nobody use

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/2599-high-poly-teeth/

but the 2k texture is just some grey and red

 

it's 1k on the left

 

[NightroModzz]

that's already this almost nobody use

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/2599-high-poly-teeth/

but the 2k texture is just some grey and red

 

 

 

it's 1k on the left

 

 

It looks good and was excited after reading the description, but ended up as a let down. (not to be rude to the author. Everyone has preferences)

 

The poly count is unnecessarily high for Skyrim. If it were me, it would probably be around half that, included with the higher poly tongue and inner cheek layer. Usually the mouth and inner cheek/lip layer are one connected mesh. This keeps the default  inner cheek layer and adds a separate mouth. Don't know why credits were given to Citrus heads if the edge seams don't match up with the Citrus head vert for vert so you can snap them together and be seamless. Also, sadly it doesn't touch the tongue.

 

 

 

 

Only checked version 0.2a. He used 3ds Max, while I can create a much higher poly version in Zbrush for normal maps and Quad Draw that in Maya for good retopology for a low poly model. Well I'll be making a low poly of mine for my head model anyways, but may edit it for a version that matches the Citrus Head seams vert for vert.

[Wandering Starspawn]

Looking great! The vanilla mouth is so freaking awful and looks like it came from the Nintendo 64. Yours looks excellently proportioned.

Glad you're going with baking to normal maps, a lot of people don't seem to realize that heedless use of polygons, multiplied by every NPC on screen does indeed have a performance impact 

 

One thing I've been wondering about eyes, if there's a way to make ones that don't have the ENB shadowing bug (which Boris said cannot be solved through ENB alone.)

[NightroModzz]

Looking great! The vanilla mouth is so freaking awful and looks like it came from the Nintendo 64. Yours looks excellently proportioned.

Glad you're going with baking to normal maps, a lot of people don't seem to realize that heedless use of polygons, multiplied by every NPC on screen does indeed have a performance impact 

 

One thing I've been wondering about eyes, if there's a way to make ones that don't have the ENB shadowing bug (which Boris said cannot be solved through ENB alone.)

Can you provide a link to this eye shadow bug? A low poly of the eyes has already been made and can be found here. The pictures in the main page are certainly optional, but not the latest. You can find pics of the latest low poly eyes somewhere in the thread.

 

I will also be making a mouth for khajiits, but only for normal maps. Any future updates or announcements regarding the human mouth (if I release it) will be there as well.

[Wandering Starspawn]

http://enbdev.com/enbseries/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3279

 

I'm really not sure the particulars of it or if it's even fixable through the mesh itself.

 

Thanks for working on this stuff, I'm keeping an eye on it

[NightroModzz]

http://enbdev.com/enbseries/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3279

 

I'm really not sure the particulars of it or if it's even fixable through the mesh itself.

 

Thanks for working on this stuff, I'm keeping an eye on it

I think it has to do with the way liighting is rendered resuting in a shadow cast on certain objects based on there mesh parts. As in, the human eye mesh has 3 parts. The eye, the eye lids, and eye lashes. The shadow casted in that pic looks like it's comming from the other eye parts. If it's only with ENB, then it's the ENBs fault and should be fixable if not present in the base game. But I don't work with ENB stuff, so won't or can't do it myself. Boris says it can't be fixed, but more like he just doesn't know how.

 

If this shadow bug doesn't effect beast races, then it's definitely a shadow cast coming from the other eye parts. Beast races only have one eye part or mesh layer. The bug will likely be present in my model as well from the other vanilla eye parts. However, my eye ball model has 3 parts alone and may be worst with that bug. Although it may be avoidable with some sort of minor glow effect, or just the way the textures are set up/made.

 

In UE4, this can easily be avoided depending on the material functions or how the textures are made. A material in UE4 is blueprint that includes a combination of textures and or added codes that can give it specific functions or edit the textures included in it such transparency or added gloss. Also light reflection and can give any mesh it's own minor light source to prevent shadows within a set range which can also prevent shadows being casted from the object itself. However, I never edited textures for Skyrim.

[Wandering Starspawn]

It seemed to me something that happens in vanilla but is barely noticeable due to crappy shadow quality.

 

I was never able to get the bug to show up on beast races, and there's always funky stuff going on with the eyelashes when I view human eyes in nifskope. I've never gotten a full grasp on all the shader flags available in nifskope but I wouldn't be surprised if the solution is in there...somewhere. Maybe eyelashes casting shadows where they shouldn't. I should look into it again.

 

Looking at UE4 and any other modern engine just makes me groan whenever I go back to fiddling with Skyrim stuff, so many juicy new features... 

[yatol]

One thing I've been wondering about eyes, if there's a way to make ones that don't have the ENB shadowing bug (which Boris said cannot be solved through ENB alone.)

 

just remove castshadow if you don't want your eyes to cast shadow on your head or themselves

 

while you are it

you can see your brows shadow on the wall? useless waste of performance

and that mouth shadow inside your mouth, someone can see it?

 

you can see the hair shadow on the wall

but you won't see any difference if you no longer see the hairline shadow on that wall (if the hairline is the same mesh)

 

fixing that on your char, it's just replacing those fail nifs with some from mods (if there's a mod for that)

fixing that on npc... if you generate 3 heads per minutes, it will take a dozen hours

fixing that on npc from npc replacer... euh...

[idle]

 

Looking great! The vanilla mouth is so freaking awful and looks like it came from the Nintendo 64. Yours looks excellently proportioned.

Glad you're going with baking to normal maps, a lot of people don't seem to realize that heedless use of polygons, multiplied by every NPC on screen does indeed have a performance impact 

 

One thing I've been wondering about eyes, if there's a way to make ones that don't have the ENB shadowing bug (which Boris said cannot be solved through ENB alone.)

Can you provide a link to this eye shadow bug? A low poly of the eyes has already been made and can be found here. The pictures in the main page are certainly optional, but not the latest. You can find pics of the latest low poly eyes somewhere in the thread.

 

I will also be making a mouth for khajiits, but only for normal maps. Any future updates or announcements regarding the human mouth (if I release it) will be there as well.

 

Sorry for the slight off-topic, but is the eye available for download?

[Kaz Aanh]

3d teeths in Skyrim look absolutely terrible.

[yatol]

3d teeths in Skyrim look absolutely terrible.

 

that's supposed to be better

than that?

those flat teeth suck, you better not open the mouth too much

 

some creatures have better teeths than your char

 

[Kaz Aanh]

Waste of resources since i barely see any character to open mouth. I talk here about pinup screenshots

 

Also its a terrible comparison, looks hella ugly with all whose mini holes between teeths.

 

2d is still superior, just just waifus,

[yatol]

you have the same holes between teeths... your "superior 2d" is just the low poly version of the mesh above...

and it's the same teeths here too

less decimated than there

[Wandering Starspawn]

The appearance of teeth has more to do with the textures and shaders than geometry or lack of. If 3D modelled teeth look inferior in-game, it's because they're just not up to standards.

 

However the vanilla teeth have far too few polys as well as some other issues (those UV maps) and a good mesh replacer would really be nice for those who are capable of noticing the difference. Seems actually implementing that isn't so easy though.

[NightroModzz]

 

 

 

Can you provide a link to this eye shadow bug? A low poly of the eyes has already been made and can be found here. The pictures in the main page are certainly optional, but not the latest. You can find pics of the latest low poly eyes somewhere in the thread.

 

I will also be making a mouth for khajiits, but only for normal maps. Any future updates or announcements regarding the human mouth (if I release it) will be there as well.

 

Sorry for the slight off-topic, but is the eye available for download?

No, it's not. The eye won't be a recourse, but a mod. My priorities changed and will release it when I release it.

[NightroModzz]

The appearance of teeth has more to do with the textures and shaders than geometry or lack of. If 3D modelled teeth look inferior in-game, it's because they're just not up to standards.

 

However the vanilla teeth have far too few polys as well as some other issues (those UV maps) and a good mesh replacer would really be nice for those who are capable of noticing the difference. Seems actually implementing that isn't so easy though.

I kind of find them to all be just as important. A normal map is probably the most important and is a texture, but relies on the high poly mesh to be made, which is geometry. As for the teeth,  you can keep it very low poly, but high poly or multiple loops when it's making a curve at the edges of the teeth for a good and smooth 3D effect.

[Wandering Starspawn]

Overall I think specularity and getting a convincing diffuse is the most important because they leave a subconscious impression during conversations when the mouth is moving too quickly to closely analyze. A lot of existing teeth retextures look bizarre because they don't nail the colors. One of the more popular teeth textures out there is actually missing a proper specular map. Doesn't help that Skyrim especially with ENBs is pretty inconsistent about applying self-shadowing.

 

I'm a little concerned with 3D teeth's potential clipping. Even vanilla's 2D planes has problems clipping here and there.

[NightroModzz]

Overall I think specularity and getting a convincing diffuse is the most important because they leave a subconscious impression during conversations when the mouth is moving too quickly to closely analyze. A lot of existing teeth retextures look bizarre because they don't nail the colors. One of the more popular teeth textures out there is actually missing a proper specular map. Doesn't help that Skyrim especially with ENBs is pretty inconsistent about applying self-shadowing.

 

I'm a little concerned with 3D teeth's potential clipping. Even vanilla's 2D planes has problems clipping here and there.

It's difficult to avoid clipping with teeth. My mesh has it too, but only in the back side teeth in the middle sides of the tooth. Not the top of bottom of the tooth. So it's not perfect and Is just a matter of how well you conseal it or make it hard to notice. Proper normal maps can help cover that up. With mine it may only be noticeable, but still fine to look at when you pull back the cheek and look at it closely from the side. So only minor, yet not very noticeable clipping.

[yatol]

 

I'm a little concerned with 3D teeth's potential clipping. Even vanilla's 2D planes has problems clipping here and there.

 

if the teeth are inside the mouth, and the reference weights you copy paste are good, there can't be clipping

the problem when you give stuff to npc, it's sieges or other things with a lot of npcs

 

no mod, 30 npcs it's 50-100 mb maybe

if you give them high poly teeth, that are 1 mb, while vanilla is 50 kb maybe, if only half those npc are clones (there's only 6 soldiers, one superior, 2 tulius...), those npcs are now 65-115 mb

with mods like obis or 3dnpc, you facegendata folder become 5 gb bigger

 

if you give them hair mods, that are 2-6mb (don't pick 6 mb hairs for npcs), those npcs are now 95-205 mb, and facegendata become 10 gb bigger (it matter too)

 

if you use immersive armors, or have add stuff to leveled lists, and those npc pick 5 non vanilla armors that are about 25 mb, they are now 220-330 mb

 

eating more ram no longer matter much, most have more than 2 gb now, with gpu that have more than 1 gb

the problem it's to have to regenerate heads for the npc of all mods you try, because of that those mods fall to oblivion

 

and the performance impact, if cpu can handle 50.8 frames per seconds here, with those high poly teeth it may drop to 50.4 frames per seconds

you can't see the performance impact here

after adding something else, it drop to 50.1, and with another mod 49.9, most will think it's that another mod that is performance hungry