Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[UnEvenSteven]

 

Perhaps a compromise, instead of a cool-down timer after a single failed escape attempt offer several attempts to escape (depending on device) before going into cool-down. For example the lock on a Chastity Bra looks rather difficult to get to so maybe the player only gets 3-4 attempts to escape with lockpicking before they get tired and have to wait. It could be explained that their hands start hurting/cramping from fiddling with lockpicks in a awkward position.

 

A Chastity Belt could have 6-8 attempts since their lock is on the front. Leg Cuffs could have 10 attempts, Arm Cuffs only 5 since you could really only use one arm when attempting to lockpick them. Having a key for any device (excluding strict arm restraints) should allow for instant escape. Maybe all these escape attempts before going into cool-down could be increased or decreased depending on the setting of that proposed difficulty slider.

 

Since Vel never made ANY constructive suggestion here, I don't think he's interested in improving the system. He's opposed it it in principle, and that's it for him. I don't think short of a kill switch for the entire thing, there is nothing I can offer to him. And the kill switch is the one thing I am not going to do.

 

The cooldown essentially defines an "average" time the player will remain locked in a restraint before they can escape it. The old system didn't have that. You'd just instantly struggle off anything because nothing kept you. I can't see the appeal in that. It's boring and mindless, and essentially means that players don't ever have to play with restraints locked on them, because ALL devices not explicitly disabling the entire escape system could be near-instantly escaped from (as in without moving one inch). According the Vel, that was exactly what he wanted. To each their own. *shrug*

 

But what did you think of the general idea of "X amount of escape attempts before cool-down"?

 

Of course failing to pick the lock on a device should result in a broken pick so the player would have to keep check on how many picks they have left. There is still also the chance of jamming the lock on a device when attempting to lockpick it.

 

I had mucked around with escaping from devices in the latest dev build and I have to say I'm not a fan if the instant cool-down period after a failed escape attempt. My idea wasn't only for Veladarius but also for others who are popping up in this thread voicing their dislike for the new escape mechanisms in the dev builds.

 

I know you can't please everyone but hopefully others start to post balanced compromises that you and the DD team can take under consideration.

 

[bicobus]

Addendum for the escape thingy:

 

My main issue with it is that I don't have any influence on wether or not my character manages to escape. I'm am but a mere spectator watching a virtual toon humping around, I'm am not involved and it feels like dead time. If you make it so the player can influence the outcome, then sure, why not put a cooldown. But otherwise I see no value in that kind of feature.

 

It is the whole point of skyrim though: your character has skills, but they exists solely to complement the player's ability to deal with whatever is thrown its way. Don't make me a spectator.

 

As for Veladarius hard quit, I believe it is more due to the fact he spent the last months going through the CK and editing all the DD items so they'd get recognized. He publicly stated that it was done while under anti-depressant and other drugs that cloud the mind, thus the long time it took. I don't believe Veladarius being willing to go through another batch fo edits because of changes from the DD team. If I understand correctly, the plight was about not increasing Vel's job.

 

If you have an easy way to change the data for those devices, like a json file or something that do not involve the CK, I would assume the amount of work be lesser and more manageable for Vel.

[Ursur1major]

What I'm worried about is how this will mean for the future, because I feel that Veladarius' decision to keep the game to the old framework is simply a prelude to a much larger argument in the future.

 

Because right now Captured Dreams is the only mod that deals in purchasing oneself out of restraints and restraint purchases. I remember Kimy telling people that the dollmaker for example does not offer does services for the reasoning that Captured Dreams already covers that.

But if Captured Dreams is not updated to sell or release the new devices, or any devices made using the new system then the DD team is forced into either forcing their devices into being recognized and sold at CD, or someone is going to have to make a new mod that offers the same or similar services as CD, and at that point CD will become pretty much completely obsolete and superseded, and that's not just stepping on Veladarius' toes, but pretty much bulldozing his driveway and building a Mcdonalds there.

 

Now this comment is ofcourse not relevant to the thread in question, but the big argument, so if you want to remove this I'm fine with that, but I just feel like this needs to be adressed before it escalates even more.

[merManc]

The cooldown essentially defines an "average" time the player will remain locked in a restraint before they can escape it. The old system didn't have that. You'd just instantly struggle off anything because nothing kept you. I can't see the appeal in that. It's boring and mindless, and essentially means that players don't ever have to play with restraints locked on them, because ALL devices not explicitly disabling the entire escape system could be near-instantly escaped from (as in without moving one inch).

 

Not everyone who uses devious devices wants to have to play with restraints locked on them. Surely most people want to play the way they enjoy it most. If that means locked in devices with no easy way out, great. I love dd, but the way I get the most fun out of it is by having the freedom to put the devices on, or take them off, when I want to. I have this freedom, my character doesn't. To some this no doubt seems "boring and mindless" and that's absolutely fair enough, because to some playing that way would be. But not everyone plays their game the same way, or likes the same things. Instead of letting a mod dictate to me when and how I can get my character out of devices I use my imagination and come up with my own conditions. If, however, at any point things get stale and I want a change of pace I can get a key and get her free to play normally for a while. And if I want it to be tougher, I can tweak the mcm to make it that way temporarily, or for the rest of that game if I so choose. That's why I would really prefer not to lose the standard device options in the old version's mcm if it's at all possible.

 

As I said above, giving modders control of devices in their own mods is the right thing to do. If that means player freedom has to go, so be it. Modders should always make the mods they want to, and I wouldn't expect anyone to cater to me. I would just hope there's a way of saving those options somehow for standard devices.

[Nazzzgul666]

We removed the difficulty silders because they were so powerful that users could change item behaviour so drastically that modders making items could no longer rely on their behaviour at all. An example: The user could set whether or not to destroy the key after item removal. If this was set to true and a modder (let's say her name was Kimy) created a set of restraints with only ONE available key for the entire set (which is a fairly realistic thing), the user would lose the only existing key after unlocking the first restraint. That's...bad.

 

 

I totally get that. What i don't get is why you don't add less powerful sliders to DDi. Let me as a user set the defaults i want to have without forcing every modder to make an own menu for that, be it very easy or very hard. There are several mods that will never be upgraded because they are abandoned, there are some few that use DDi and don't even have an MCM.

I want to be able to play with my "don't give me too hard times" settings AND "make it a hell" settings depending on the mods i'm using, and i'll gladly play certain items like expected by the author. But not the random devices that were never touched by anybody outside the DD team, i want to be able to use them however my mood decides. I can't do that anymore with the new version.

[pinky6225]

 

 

Open CK and look at the escape cooldown for the armbinder. I swear most people hammering the new system never actually tried it.

 

 

I'm not "hammering" anything, it was just a comment to think about in regard to the armbinder escape mechanism. But I apologise if I have offended you.

 

 

Admittedly i've not looked but it seems to me that if the idea behind the new system is to prevent cheesy stuff like spamming escape then your trying to fix a problem thats not there (if you think one way) or is never going to be achievable (if you think the other) other than the armbinder (in which i could console up the relationshiprank of a npc and get them to release me) i can get out of stuff by consoling in a key which is no more/less immersion breaking than spamming escape

[Princessity]

Hi Folks, I am looking at the dev branch of dd, downloaded around an hour ago maybe I have a consistent crash to desktop when equipping xx02fa8f or xx02fa8b chains (I hope I have that right, mine are 0d in place of xx but i'm 86% certain thats just load order.) 

 

CTD occurs when equipping Iron Prisoner Chains or Rusty Iron Prisoner chains around one second after, or if i click the ok button, when I either attempt to do something with the inventory or leave the menu, my gut says i've probably forgotten something but a reinstall of the dev branch did not fix and im outta ideas. in papyrus logs I have only a ream of item registrations. Freshly loaded up character. wait for init. Any idea what I can try that would be more helpful?

 

[07/04/2017 - 09:34:58PM] [Zad]: OnEquipped(Prisoner: Rusty Iron Prisoner Chains)

[07/04/2017 - 09:34:58PM] [Zad]: Sending device event DeviceEquippedPrisoner Chains(Prisoner:1)

[07/04/2017 - 09:34:58PM] [Zad]: SyncInventory(): Equipping Prisoner Chains.

[07/04/2017 - 09:34:58PM] [Zad]: RestraintScript OnEquippedPost Full

 

 

 

A request: Is it possible to get something like a container "zadx_deviousContainer" containing all of the currently supported and expected to be working items. or a pointer to get something that helps me get a hold of all the things in a semi easy manner, would help me tinker about. Thanks

 

Crashes upon equipping HDT-enabled items are caused by an incorrect or outdated skeleton. You need to install the latest version of XPMSE (not to be confused with XPMS).

[MrBig]

So I've been following the comment and I've not had the chance to try the new build myself yet (I intend to when i can get around to it) but for whats it worth I don't think its a super good idea to make basic devices crazy restrictive.

 

For one lock shield's should be reserved for special/more punishing devices rather than basic ones. If you happen to have a key in your possession then you shouldn't be limited to removing the device straight away. Not having a key on you is already in itself the main prevention mechanic. If you run things like DCL there's already a good chance you lose keys often and can get hit with basic devices alot.

 

Second the escape options; while I generally agree that it needs something doing to it I don't think limiting the players ability to, well, play for too long is the answer. The more restrictive stuff like armbinders effectively stop most gameplay as it is (maybe not so much in towns but certainly in dungeons/wilderness) so locking players out of escaping for too long isn't wise. And again if multiple mods are equipping restrictive items regularly and you're forced to wait between each escape it could be tedious.

 

As stated I've not had first hand experience with new build yet and I'm only basing my opinions on what im reading so take with a pinch of salt

 

End of the day people like playing for different reasons. If someone want's to struggle in place they can do that or if someone wants a hardcore experience they can do that too; DD's beauty has always been in how much variety and, ironically, freedom it offered.

[donotbugme]

 

Hi Folks, I am looking at the dev branch of dd, downloaded around an hour ago maybe I have a consistent crash to desktop when equipping xx02fa8f or xx02fa8b chains (I hope I have that right, mine are 0d in place of xx but i'm 86% certain thats just load order.) 

 

CTD occurs when equipping Iron Prisoner Chains or Rusty Iron Prisoner chains around one second after, or if i click the ok button, when I either attempt to do something with the inventory or leave the menu, my gut says i've probably forgotten something but a reinstall of the dev branch did not fix and im outta ideas. in papyrus logs I have only a ream of item registrations. Freshly loaded up character. wait for init. Any idea what I can try that would be more helpful?

 

[07/04/2017 - 09:34:58PM] [Zad]: OnEquipped(Prisoner: Rusty Iron Prisoner Chains)

[07/04/2017 - 09:34:58PM] [Zad]: Sending device event DeviceEquippedPrisoner Chains(Prisoner:1)

[07/04/2017 - 09:34:58PM] [Zad]: SyncInventory(): Equipping Prisoner Chains.

[07/04/2017 - 09:34:58PM] [Zad]: RestraintScript OnEquippedPost Full

 

 

 

A request: Is it possible to get something like a container "zadx_deviousContainer" containing all of the currently supported and expected to be working items. or a pointer to get something that helps me get a hold of all the things in a semi easy manner, would help me tinker about. Thanks

 

Crashes upon equipping HDT-enabled items are caused by an incorrect or outdated skeleton. You need to install the latest version of XPMSE (not to be confused with XPMS).

 

 

Many Thanks 

[tfjohnson]

Ok, I have no problem setting the shield lock default to zero, essentially eliminating it from all standard library devices. If that's what people generally want (in other words, tell me your opinion!) But even now it's at a ridiculously small amount of time (a couple hours), essentially meaning that you can't unlock a device RIGHT after got locked on you, if you happen to have a key. But I am not dead set on keeping this feature active for standard devices, if there is general consent among users that they don't want it.

 

Next, the escape cooldown, as I have explained, is meant to prevent spam escape attempts. Like: Player gets put in an armbinder, keeps standing in the -exact- place they got tied up at, and keep spamming "Struggle" as long as it takes to get out of the item. That's extremely boring and pointless, but unless there is a mechanic discouraging this behavior, it's the MOST EFFICIENT way to get out of an restraint. Why wear it if you just have to spam a button long enough to escape ANY item? The cooldown might sound silly as an idea, but it encourages actually playing with a restraint instead of -immediately- get out of them. With the old escape system, I made -every- single custom restraint I ever made to be inescapable, just because there is otherwise no way to prevent a player from spamming escape attempts, and that's what the game would encourage them to do.

If people have a better idea to prevent spam escape attempts, I am willing to listen, but stamina recharges in mere seconds out of combat, so stamina hits won't just cut it. And is in fact just an escape cooldown too, albeit a short one. Preventing spam unlock attempts is one of the cornerstones of the new escape system, and there is no way I can be convinced to let go of the feature. If people feel the default cooldown isn't right, I am willing to consider -that-, but I seriously don't think it's too long right now. It's the equivalent of six minutes real time right now.

 

The default key break chance is 25%, which sounds like a lot at first glance, but it means that on average you can unlock three out of four restraints without issues.

If it was change to a system based on stamina would it be possible to add a stamina regen debuff to the devices to make escape less spam-y?

 

Personally, I treat the framework as an end to itself, I like just running around with the devices and coming up for my own reasons why my char has them on her. I understand completely why the changes were made and I like that the items now behave differently, but the time lock doesn't really prevent me from spamming escape, it just adds an extra step to it. (escape>escape>escape>freedom vs escape>wait x hours>escape>wait x hours>...>freedom). I think a system where the cooldown was a short wait without having to go into the Wait Menu would alleviate a some of the head-ache with the new system.  If the stamina thing isn't feasible, than I think it the suggestion to add multiple chances for escape before being told to wait x amount of hours would make more sense. For me, at least, its a bit weird to get hit with an X hour wait after only about 5-10 seconds of actual struggling.

 

[Nazzzgul666]

 

 

The need to wait between escape trials is a bit odd, because the player will remove those devices anyway and all this feature is doing is stalling.

 

What this feature is meant to do is preventing the player from standing still where they are and spam escape attempts for as long as it takes. While the realism of the cooldown is debatable, it -does- prevent the player from instantly escaping any item just by trying long enough and encourages her to continue playing the game, which the restraint still worn.

 

I'm on Bibocus here. What i did some while ago while testing the dev version was spamming struggle and waiting. By no means that is any more intresting than just struggling, and imho it doesn't get more intresting either if i have need mods additionally to prevent waiting. There are circumstances in which i want to be out of a certain (but not necessarily all) device NOW, be it because i'm playing a quest that needs me out of an armbinder, or compatibility, or whatever. If this item is part of a quest, i get it that i can't do another quest right now. If that item is just a random one, i don't want to walk around and mumble to everybody or walk 200 miles from a sunken ship in the north to the next blacksmith to be able to continue my quest.

 

I partly agree that random devices can be boring, especially if it's not difficult to escape. And therefore i'm playing some questmods, and then i don't want to be forced to fuck with a slightly more intresting because difficult device. There are other times where i think "start that huge quest? Nah... just a little adventure.", so i change my settings to be more difficult, get fight around until i get beaten and bound and i have to find my way out. Running through the wilderness, escaping wolves and bandits, getting enough money to be free again while bound, that CAN be fun, it's lacking dialogues and story, but nevertheless. Whatever you do, with the current system you take away one of those options (easy or hard escape). The numbers don't matter, i'll lose one of those options and that means that i either get rid of half my mods using DD, or i won't upgrade. Imho both would be a big disadvantege and i really hope you reconsider this.

 

*edit: like mentioned in the dev thread: i (and i think anybody) needs necessarily the SAME system back. I'm totally fine if a mod can override my settings for devices added by this mod. If i don't like the restrictions, i can just avoid to use it. But what i want to have are custom settings for every device that doesn't override them. Be it because the modder doesn't want the work, be it that he isn't around anymore.

If a new DDi means i can't play some old mods anymore not because of technical incompatibility but because of missing settings, for me as a user there is no difference. In the end it is: i can't use the mod anymore.

 

Give me default settings i can change, let mods override them, please.

 

This is a weakness of the game of random, it can be fixed with proper content like cursed loot and the mini-quests to remove devious items. The removal would succeed 100% but invite the player to work for it. I'm referring to the "I can't help you, but I know somebody who can." answer, then send the player to the next city.

 

Yes, these features are meant to coexist. There are multiple paths to freedom: Struggling, finding help, doing quests, scavenging for keys etc. That's supposed to make bondage content much more interesting than offering one route of escape that's distinctively easier than the others (which is spamming escape attempts), but also super boring.

 

 

 

 Err, yeah, I go with you on this case. I don't enjoy being forced to use the gag talk system, and enjoy is a very light word to express my hate for that "mini game". If other annoying features becomes like that one, with no way for the user to tweak or disable them, I'll just not upgrade DD. However if the vanilla items are configurable through the MCM, then it would alleviate most of my issues. It is not currently the case with gag talk.

 

I thought long ago about bringing DCL's gag talk system to DDI, but DCL's gag talk system doesn't make sense without DCL. If you have any ideas how to revamp the DDI gag talk and make it more fun, let me know in the dev thread!

 

One thing i'd like to have is an option to get out of ALL devices via gold. I think that should again be something that can be en/disabled in MCM because gold is sometimes too easy to get, in my current game it's quite hard, my best option is to use the abandoned but awesome More devious quests. If someone could take that over and let me work for keys it would be even better, but adding gold as an option would be much less work i guess.

 

 

 

The need to wait between escape trials is a bit odd, because the player will remove those devices anyway and all this feature is doing is stalling.

 

What this feature is meant to do is preventing the player from standing still where they are and spam escape attempts for as long as it takes. While the realism of the cooldown is debatable, it -does- prevent the player from instantly escaping any item just by trying long enough and encourages her to continue playing the game, which the restraint still worn.

 

I'm on Bibocus here. What i did some while ago while testing the dev version was spamming struggle and waiting. By no means that is any more intresting than just struggling, and imho it doesn't get more intresting either if i have need mods additionally to prevent waiting. There are circumstances in which i want to be out of a certain (but not necessarily all) device NOW, be it because i'm playing a quest that needs me out of an armbinder, or compatibility, or whatever. If this item is part of a quest, i get it that i can't do another quest right now. If that item is just a random one, i don't want to walk around and mumble to everybody or walk 200 miles from a sunken ship in the north to the next blacksmith to be able to continue my quest.

 

I partly agree that random devices can be boring, especially if it's not difficult to escape. And therefore i'm playing some questmods, and then i don't want to be forced to fuck with a slightly more intresting because difficult device. There are other times where i think "start that huge quest? Nah... just a little adventure.", so i change my settings to be more difficult, get fight around until i get beaten and bound and i have to find my way out. Running through the wilderness, escaping wolves and bandits, getting enough money to be free again while bound, that CAN be fun, it's lacking dialogues and story, but nevertheless. Whatever you do, with the current system you take away one of those options (easy or hard escape). The numbers don't matter, i'll lose one of those options and that means that i either get rid of half my mods using DD, or i won't upgrade. Imho both would be a big disadvantege and i really hope you reconsider this.

 

*edit: like mentioned in the dev thread: i (and i think anybody) needs necessarily the SAME system back. I'm totally fine if a mod can override my settings for devices added by this mod. If i don't like the restrictions, i can just avoid to use it. But what i want to have are custom settings for every device that doesn't override them. Be it because the modder doesn't want the work, be it that he isn't around anymore.

If a new DDi means i can't play some old mods anymore not because of technical incompatibility but because of missing settings, for me as a user there is no difference. In the end it is: i can't use the mod anymore.

 

Give me default settings i can change, let mods override them, please.

 

This is a weakness of the game of random, it can be fixed with proper content like cursed loot and the mini-quests to remove devious items. The removal would succeed 100% but invite the player to work for it. I'm referring to the "I can't help you, but I know somebody who can." answer, then send the player to the next city.

 

Yes, these features are meant to coexist. There are multiple paths to freedom: Struggling, finding help, doing quests, scavenging for keys etc. That's supposed to make bondage content much more interesting than offering one route of escape that's distinctively easier than the others (which is spamming escape attempts), but also super boring.

 

 

 

 Err, yeah, I go with you on this case. I don't enjoy being forced to use the gag talk system, and enjoy is a very light word to express my hate for that "mini game". If other annoying features becomes like that one, with no way for the user to tweak or disable them, I'll just not upgrade DD. However if the vanilla items are configurable through the MCM, then it would alleviate most of my issues. It is not currently the case with gag talk.

 

I thought long ago about bringing DCL's gag talk system to DDI, but DCL's gag talk system doesn't make sense without DCL. If you have any ideas how to revamp the DDI gag talk and make it more fun, let me know in the dev thread!

 

One thing i'd like to have is an option to get out of ALL devices via gold. I think that should again be something that can be en/disabled in MCM because gold is sometimes too easy to get, in my current game it's quite hard, my best option is to use the abandoned but awesome More devious quests. If someone could take that over and let me work for keys it would be even better, but adding gold as an option would be much less work i guess.

 

[Kimy]

 

§ 1: It is irrelevant for the framework, any kind of waiting period goes into game design. It has to have a purpose beyond basic mechanic, like encouraging the player to seek other form of help. In my games I find no key, nor exists any npc capable of removing a device for me. The only way to remove them, if they are "rogue" devices, is through the escape mechanic. If the devices are put on my character through a third party mod, that mod will usually handle the removal part (sd+, Captured Dream, POP).

 

The framework without any content mods to actually use is utterly and totally -meaningless-. I guess half of the misconception people have about DDI is that it's a "mod". It's not. It's a piece of software to create mods with.

 

By extension, I find no reason to wear bondage in my games. There is no mechanic in place that would encourage me to do so, with the exception of Shout like a Virgin which will provide boons and constraints alike. However SlaV do not rely on escapes nor keys to remove the devices, bypassing the DDi feature entirely.

 

Exactly. Some content mods will make use of the features provided by the framework. Some will not. That's...100% intended and the reason why the new system puts control largely in the hands of the content mods.

 

§ 2: Yes I have an idea: remove the gag talk entirely or disable it by default. Instead have a "mmmhf" sound every time the player select a dialogue option. It's not difficult to make yourself being understood when you can't talk or your interlocutor do not understand what you are saying. If somebody think of a mini-game they are free to implement it in their own mod, but the DDi thing is superseding every other mod out there. As you said, a gag system make sense along the mod that introduce it.

 

That was the status quo before the DDI gag talk got merged into the framework. Gags would prevent speaking. At all. Period. Unless a content mod would provide a means around it, there was NO way to do any quest or talk to any NPC while wearing a gag. Them being a complete showstopper was why the gag talk was invented. I am not sure if want to go back to gags being a showstopper, but if that's what the community wants? I rather thought about ways to make the gag talk more interesting. I think the DCL gag actually DOES that, but DCL isn't a part of the framework, and I am not sure people would appreciate DCL-like mechanics in the framework. It's what DCL is there for.

 

[...]

What I would recommend is - download the dev build and actually test the new system. As Princessity said, the default values are totally up for debate. They are largely untested and are based on Kimy Guesswork™. If they turn out to make items too hard/easy/unfun/unbalanced/boring, let us know, and we'll consider changing them!

[...]

 

Emphasis is mine.

Instead of guessing around, wouldn't it better to draft a roadmap and call the various active modders who depend on DDi for comment on your ideas?

 

I must have missed something. Because I thought getting feedback from stakeholders was exactly what I am doing here... *confused*

 

In short, a RFC before investing resources and time into actual development. The varied individual could then read and propose an amendment to the RFC, which would then need to be reviewed and accepted by DDi's core team.

 

This approach regularly leads to ten years of fruitless talk and bickering without ever reaching an agreement. It has never worked well anywhere in human history. What usually works is making a suggestion and collecting people's opinions and then make necessary changes. That's what I am doing.

 

One thing i'd like to have is an option to get out of ALL devices via gold. I think that should again be something that can be en/disabled in MCM because gold is sometimes too easy to get, in my current game it's quite hard, my best option is to use the abandoned but awesome More devious quests. If someone could take that over and let me work for keys it would be even better, but adding gold as an option would be much less work i guess.

 

 

There are SO many DD content mods available offering that exact feature that I really don't understand why the framework would need to add that is well.

[Nazzzgul666]

 

 

§ 1: It is irrelevant for the framework, any kind of waiting period goes into game design. It has to have a purpose beyond basic mechanic, like encouraging the player to seek other form of help. In my games I find no key, nor exists any npc capable of removing a device for me. The only way to remove them, if they are "rogue" devices, is through the escape mechanic. If the devices are put on my character through a third party mod, that mod will usually handle the removal part (sd+, Captured Dream, POP).

 

The framework without any content mods to actually use is utterly and totally -meaningless-. I guess half of the misconception people have about DDI is that it's a "mod". It's not. It's a piece of software to create mods with.

 

It's the same for me: i have CD, POP and DEC (and i think Dovakiins infame might use DD as well, not sure). None adds keys. If you don't consider SD+, POP, CD and DEC content mods, i wonder which counts? I have had a lot of probems with Cursed Loot which isn't your fault, my hardware just doesn't allow to run all those mods together without stack dumps, and after almost one year withou cursed loot only, i want to try some other mods. Did you ever try a game without cursed loot? I think it might change your perception, and i don't mean that "Kimy only cares about her own mod" but very literally. I know it changed my view a lot. It's still a DD game, but completly different.

 

By extension, I find no reason to wear bondage in my games. There is no mechanic in place that would encourage me to do so, with the exception of Shout like a Virgin which will provide boons and constraints alike. However SlaV do not rely on escapes nor keys to remove the devices, bypassing the DDi feature entirely.

 

Exactly. Some content mods will make use of the features provided by the framework. Some will not. That's...100% intended and the reason why the new system puts control largely in the hands of the content mods.

 

§ 2: Yes I have an idea: remove the gag talk entirely or disable it by default. Instead have a "mmmhf" sound every time the player select a dialogue option. It's not difficult to make yourself being understood when you can't talk or your interlocutor do not understand what you are saying. If somebody think of a mini-game they are free to implement it in their own mod, but the DDi thing is superseding every other mod out there. As you said, a gag system make sense along the mod that introduce it.

 

That was the status quo before the DDI gag talk got merged into the framework. Gags would prevent speaking. At all. Period. Unless a content mod would provide a means around it, there was NO way to do any quest or talk to any NPC while wearing a gag. Them being a complete showstopper was why the gag talk was invented. I am not sure if want to go back to gags being a showstopper, but if that's what the community wants? I rather thought about ways to make the gag talk more interesting. I think the DCL gag actually DOES that, but DCL isn't a part of the framework, and I am not sure people would appreciate DCL-like mechanics in the framework. It's what DCL is there for.

 

I have some ideas for another system, quite raw, though. Have to sleep and think about it before i post it. In case of doubt i think the DCL gag talk is a lot better and i'd prefer it any time.

 

[...]

What I would recommend is - download the dev build and actually test the new system. As Princessity said, the default values are totally up for debate. They are largely untested and are based on Kimy Guesswork™. If they turn out to make items too hard/easy/unfun/unbalanced/boring, let us know, and we'll consider changing them!

[...]

 

Emphasis is mine.

Instead of guessing around, wouldn't it better to draft a roadmap and call the various active modders who depend on DDi for comment on your ideas?

 

I must have missed something. Because I thought getting feedback from stakeholders was exactly what I am doing here... *confused*

 

Yes, but the most contoverse decision of all is always out of discussion, for some reason i don't understand. 

It's not the first time that removing the options was questioned.

 

In short, a RFC before investing resources and time into actual development. The varied individual could then read and propose an amendment to the RFC, which would then need to be reviewed and accepted by DDi's core team.

 

This approach regularly leads to ten years of fruitless talk and bickering without ever reaching an agreement. It has never worked well anywhere in human history. What usually works is making a suggestion and collecting people's opinions and then make necessary changes. That's what I am doing.

 

One thing i'd like to have is an option to get out of ALL devices via gold. I think that should again be something that can be en/disabled in MCM because gold is sometimes too easy to get, in my current game it's quite hard, my best option is to use the abandoned but awesome More devious quests. If someone could take that over and let me work for keys it would be even better, but adding gold as an option would be much less work i guess.

 

 

There are SO many DD content mods available offering that exact feature that I really don't understand why the framework would need to add that is well.

 

DCL and SD+ are the two i know, and both are too heavy for my setup. Any recommendations beside those too?

[bicobus]

The framework without any content mods to actually use is utterly and totally -meaningless-. I guess half of the misconception people have about DDI is that it's a "mod". It's not. It's a piece of software to create mods with.

Why are you forcing default values on each item then? If the framework is there to build stuff, don't define pre-existing rules. As I said, one of the best mods I have played is Shout Like a Virgin and it totally bypass DDi locking/escaping mechanics. Those mechanics should be left to each individual mods, while the framework provide for a basic one. I'm just following your stance here, a simple question would suffice like: "Do you want to remove the device now? Y/N".

 

Exactly. Some content mods will make use of the features provided by the framework. Some will not. That's...100% intended and the reason why the new system puts control largely in the hands of the content mods.

 

I must admit that I have no idea how to modify those mechanics. Will each modder need to go through each individual device to tweak them? That seems like a lot of work.

 

That was the status quo before the DDI gag talk got merged into the framework. Gags would prevent speaking. At all. Period. Unless a content mod would provide a means around it, there was NO way to do any quest or talk to any NPC while wearing a gag. Them being a complete showstopper was why the gag talk was invented. I am not sure if want to go back to gags being a showstopper, but if that's what the community wants? I rather thought about ways to make the gag talk more interesting. I think the DCL gag actually DOES that, but DCL isn't a part of the framework, and I am not sure people would appreciate DCL-like mechanics in the framework. It's what DCL is there for.

That wasn't what I meant, sorry for not being precise enough. What I meant is to allow the player character to open a dialogue without restrains, even with a gag. And as a sign the player is actually wearing a gog, throw some "mmmhfs" sound every time an option is selected. If a mod want to retrofit the mechanic, then more power to it. As you said, a framework does nothing but provide tools for creators to build things with.

 

I don't know how DCL works with a gag, I haven't played that mod in a long time.

 

I must have missed something. Because I thought getting feedback from stakeholders was exactly what I am doing here... *confused*

 

This approach regularly leads to ten years of fruitless talk and bickering without ever reaching an agreement. It has never worked well anywhere in human history. What usually works is making a suggestion and collecting people's opinions and then make necessary changes. That's what I am doing.

Actually, you are implementing features then wait for comments. What I am suggesting is drafting a proposal to retrofit the current mechanics, have people read it and provide comments, argue about the difference you people may have on the game design and concepts. It does take time, but that's how nearly everything in IT is done. People in the videogame industry have daily meetings to discuss whatever is going on with the project, area that need to be worked on, stuff that needs to be dropped or retrofitted and so on. Development is 60% talking, 30% planning and 10% coding.

 

I would be interested and be involved in any kind of talks about future features or reworks. I just can't test for the reasons I've given.

[Kimy]

 

The framework without any content mods to actually use is utterly and totally -meaningless-. I guess half of the misconception people have about DDI is that it's a "mod". It's not. It's a piece of software to create mods with.

Why are you forcing default values on each item then? If the framework is there to build stuff, don't define pre-existing rules. As I said, one of the best mods I have played is Shout Like a Virgin and it totally bypass DDi locking/escaping mechanics.

 

The reason why it bypasses the old DDI system is because it's so inflexible that modders can't do what they want within it. That and because users can influence the values so heavily that as a modder you have zero way to know what your item would actually behave like in any particular installation. I do the same btw. Every single one of my custom items bypassed the DDI escape system as well, because it was really that bad (*hugs* Min. Sorry, but it's true!).

 

Those mechanics should be left to each individual mods,

 

THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT THE NEW SYSTEM IS DOING. *SOB*

 

Exactly. Some content mods will make use of the features provided by the framework. Some will not. That's...100% intended and the reason why the new system puts control largely in the hands of the content mods.

 

I must admit that I have no idea how to modify those mechanics. Will each modder need to go through each individual device to tweak them? That seems like a lot of work.

 

Creating custom items is100x simpler than it used to be. Most custom items do not even need custom scripts anymore. You can do it all with item properties now.

 

I must have missed something. Because I thought getting feedback from stakeholders was exactly what I am doing here... *confused*

 

This approach regularly leads to ten years of fruitless talk and bickering without ever reaching an agreement. It has never worked well anywhere in human history. What usually works is making a suggestion and collecting people's opinions and then make necessary changes. That's what I am doing.

 

Actually, you are implementing features then wait for comments.

 

Yes.

 

What I am suggesting is drafting a proposal to retrofit the current mechanics, have people read it and provide comments, argue about the difference you people may have on the game design and concepts.

 

As I said above, "public consultation" is never getting anything done. You end up with UN-style fruitless bickering, some people hating an idea and some loving it. And then you STILL have to make a decision, weighing both sides. The result is the same as with my approach, except yours takes 10 times longer.

 

It does take time, but that's how nearly everything in IT is done

 

We do this sort of thing in the DD team. Because that's the people actually most qualified to do that and most invested in DD. In IT you also don't ask users for their input before you have at least a working prototype ready.  You ask other DEVELOPERS for their input. We do that.

 

People in the videogame industry have daily meetings to discuss whatever is going on with the project, area that need to be worked on, stuff that needs to be dropped or retrofitted and so on. Development is 60% talking, 30% planning and 10% coding.

 

That's what this thread is there for. I am not quite sure what people think we made this thread for. But that's really it. The simple truth is that almost nobody makes use of the tools provided to them (Hint: Count Vel's postings here prior to today). Everyone is welcome to post suggestions here. Users and modders alike. They can make suggestions even before we start implementing them. We won't keep them. The new escape system has been in development for a while now, and Vel chose not to speak up all the time, while we were gradually pushing out changes on the PUBLIC repository and talking about them here. That's his choice and his loss. If you don't speak up, you don't get a say.

 

What you are suggesting amounts to us coming up with all ideas, putting in all the work, and then let every Tom, Dick and Harry vote on it, and not do anything Tom, Dick and Harry don't approve of, regardless of whether Tom, Dick or Harry ever contributed -anything- to the development process, including even following the development thread. Sorry, but in my world, if you want a say, you need to get involved. The tools are there. GitHub. This thread. Even offering help to the DD team if you want to be a part of it and have something to contribute. People need to use these tools or STFU. Sorry if this sounds slightly annoyed, but lately this seems to become a common state of mind for me. If you are suggestion that Vel didn't have his fair chance to have a say, you and I are just not on the same page. He did. He chose not to. Read his own postings where he admitted to that.

 

I would be interested and be involved in any kind of talks about future features or reworks. I just can't test for the reasons I've given.

 

You are free to post suggestions here, as well. No testing required.

 

 

[Veladarius]

Addendum for the escape thingy:

 

As for Veladarius hard quit, I believe it is more due to the fact he spent the last months going through the CK and editing all the DD items so they'd get recognized. He publicly stated that it was done while under anti-depressant and other drugs that cloud the mind, thus the long time it took. I don't believe Veladarius being willing to go through another batch fo edits because of changes from the DD team. If I understand correctly, the plight was about not increasing Vel's job.

 

If you have an easy way to change the data for those devices, like a json file or something that do not involve the CK, I would assume the amount of work be lesser and more manageable for Vel.

 

Between Generic Keyed items, Standard Quest items, Protector items and Protector Plus items I have 323 devices (646 items between Inventory and Script instance parts) not counting some quest specific items. Of these 106 are Generic Non-Quest devices (212 items between inventory and script instance parts). 

 

When I updated to v3 and set up for using the QuestItem keyword and removal script I had to modify 217 devices by adding keywords to them, create a new device removal function that would only remove my devices, go through all the quest scripts whether it was the main script, dialogue scripts or scene scripts and make sure that it was using the proper removal function and then test every single quest and all of its variations to make sure I didn't miss any. As a reference there are 1766 scripts, 588 scene fragments and around 9500 lines of dialogue in CD. 

 

Yes Kimy, I know I didn't have to update and use the QuestItem keyword but to ensure the devices were not removed in error by someone else's carelessness I had to. Just like I am sure that you did the same thing to your quest devices.

 

 

I have not quit CD just yet but I won't be updating for the new DD releases and will just keep using the current mods I have installed.

[Guest]

I don't know why everyone is bitching about the gag talk to be frank, it was so inhibiting before kimy merged her version of gag talk into the framework. Seriously sometimes we should support these decisions and not be so trivial about every little thing that is done with this mod.

 

Work on the real issues of the framework not bitch about gag talk when it doesn't interrupt and is far less annoying then how it was before. Come up with suggestions on how to make it better removing it entirely will make me smash my face into a wall if we have to go back to the old mechanic ffs.

[sapho888]

 

 

There are SO many DD content mods available offering that exact feature that I really don't understand why the framework would need to add that is well.

 

 

Perhaps that IS a reason to have it in the framework then?  I have some of these mods that allow for blacksmiths or someone else to remove restraints and I can never remember which dialogue option is for which mod.  I have to ask myself, will this option break another mods quests or is it actually part of the quest?  If it were consolidated into the framework, then modders could just use the framework's system while letting the modder choose which NPCs can remove their restraints?  

[bicobus]

They can make suggestions even before we start implementing them.

About what? If you don't talk about your plans, how can we know whatever is going to happen? This whole episode is reactionary, because most modders and users are busy enough with their own issues.

 

Providing actual documentation about how the changes will impact the future of the DD community is actually a big deal, as it would prevent nervous breakdowns like we've seen earlier. That is the task of the roadmap and discussions. Takes time, sure, but the framework is so critical that it needs to be taken.

 

THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT THE NEW SYSTEM IS DOING. *SOB*

Yeah, I actually wanted to expand on this to put the player's perspective but I waited for your answer

 

As a player, I don't want DDi do do anything. I don't want it's shield locking feature, I don't want it's key breaking feature, I want nothing but the utmost basic thing to troubleshoot. Lock an item on, then if the player ask remove it. That's not going to happen though, I am aware of it, so what I actually expect is a way to disable the DDi features. A tickbox in the MCM: "Do not enforce device lock on player.". If it is enabled, another option would then appears: "Allow third party mod to ignore the previous setting.". Those are optional and user based choices. There is no mechanics involved, no struggling, no nothing. Just simple keep you locked in as intended or let you go. The second option is obviously if the player is using a mod requiring the lock mechanism, like every DD mod out there, and exists solely for troubleshooting purpose for non-quest items.

 

This is all I care about: 2 simple settings and basic freedom. How you implement the escape mechanics and keys and other stuff isn't relevant to me as a player.

 

So there it is. If I can't at least do that I expect things to be extremely annoying for me, and I'll probably leave too (which wouldn't be a great loss, I concur).

 

The new escape system has been in development for a while now, and Vel chose not to speak up all the time, while we were gradually pushing out changes on the PUBLIC repository and talking about them here. That's his choice and his loss. If you don't speak up, you don't get a say.

Vel has his own issues, as stated earlier by himself. The factor of "choice" in this case matters little. From what I understood, it took a great deal of pain and effort for Vel to continue to work on his mods, which is brave enough. You can't expect everybody to just turn up and test and do all the things in addition to fixing their own broken shit. Yeah CD scenes were broken due to the previous changes in DDi, not sure if you knew. So I understand Vel reaction to the prospect of more rework and QA tests instead of working on content.

 

As I said, discuss more. Nobody will agree on anything, but at least it get the ideas and point of view out there so you can gauge the state of the projects depending on the framework. I'm pretty sure the changes you have in mind aren't that bad, but it doesn't seem anybody exactly know whatever they are and they're freaking out. Me included.

I don't know why everyone is bitching about the gag talk to be frank, it was so inhibiting before kimy merged her version of gag talk into the framework. Seriously sometimes we should support these decisions and not be so trivial about every little thing that is done with this mod.

 

Work on the real issues of the framework not bitch about gag talk when it doesn't interrupt and is far less annoying then how it was before. Come up with suggestions on how to make it better removing it entirely will make me smash my face into a wall if we have to go back to the old mechanic ffs.

 

No gag talk is best gag talk. Unless you have a reason to keep the player character from speaking, which isn't existent from the framework point of view. So yeah.

[Veladarius]

 

 

 (Hint: Count Vel's postings here prior to today).

 

I never said anything until you asked. Why? Because you gave me the exact answers I expected you to. You focus on the things you want and ignore or brush off everything else, your comments of dislike and disinterest about the open back belts and fixing them made that all the more obvious even when I literally handed you the fix between them and the plugs.

[Guest]

 

I don't know why everyone is bitching about the gag talk to be frank, it was so inhibiting before kimy merged her version of gag talk into the framework. Seriously sometimes we should support these decisions and not be so trivial about every little thing that is done with this mod.

 

Work on the real issues of the framework not bitch about gag talk when it doesn't interrupt and is far less annoying then how it was before. Come up with suggestions on how to make it better removing it entirely will make me smash my face into a wall if we have to go back to the old mechanic ffs.

 

No gag talk is best gag talk. Unless you have a reason to keep the player character from speaking, which isn't existent from the framework point of view. So yeah.

 

You can create your own gags that make it so you don't speak. But standard gags not being able to speak is just ridiculous as it really throws the game into a standstill as you basically have to drop everything you're doing just to get the gag off because you need to be able to talk.

 

Before gagtalk I had gags disabled to be honest and this was a discussion we had awhile ago about whether or not it should be merged and was the consensus at that time.

 

Again find a better way for gags to be used removing it completely is really boneheaded idea IMHO

[bicobus]

 

 

I don't know why everyone is bitching about the gag talk to be frank, it was so inhibiting before kimy merged her version of gag talk into the framework. Seriously sometimes we should support these decisions and not be so trivial about every little thing that is done with this mod.

 

Work on the real issues of the framework not bitch about gag talk when it doesn't interrupt and is far less annoying then how it was before. Come up with suggestions on how to make it better removing it entirely will make me smash my face into a wall if we have to go back to the old mechanic ffs.

 

No gag talk is best gag talk. Unless you have a reason to keep the player character from speaking, which isn't existent from the framework point of view. So yeah.

 

 

You can create your own gags that make it so you don't speak. But standard gags not being able to speak is just ridiculous as it really throws the game into a standstill as you basically have to drop everything you're doing just to get the gag off because you need to be able to talk.

 

Before gagtalk I had gags disabled to be honest and this was a discussion we had awhile ago about whether or not it should be merged and was the consensus at that time.

 

Again find a better way for gags to be used removing it completely is really boneheaded idea IMHO

 

My point is the framework should not care if the player is able to talk or not. It's the job of the mods, and beside DCL I know not of a mod that implement a gag talk mechanic. So dropping it from the framework wouldn't be too bizarre, and I would actually like to get the view point of the different modders on the subject. I know most people aren't fan of the gag talk auto-randomized-failing you when you try to talk to an NPC. Not everybody is a masochist.

 

Please don't get me started on how obnoxious the current system is, I already feel my blood boiling.

[Bugg]

I have to agree with Atreyatan about the gag-talk. In my (fairly pointless) opinion, the current gag-talking works fine. Sure, the more-often-than-not failure can be annoying and even sometimes infuriating, but its another case of how different people play with DD and Skyrim in completely different ways. I too had gags completely disabled before the gag-talk was implemented, because I stop everything and try to find a key or get frustrated and console-command myself one. At least now you have have a chance of being able to continue your adventure whilst gagged because you can still, at times, talk with npc's.

 

Instead of removing the gag-talk completely or keeping it, more-or-less, the same, would it be possible to have gag-talk for the "less punishing" gags and have the "more punishing" gags keep you from talking/mumbling altogether. Just an idea, I don't know how hard this would be to do...

[Guest]

 

My point is the framework should not care if the player is able to talk or not. It's the job of the mods, and beside DCL I know not of a mod that implement a gag talk mechanic. So dropping it from the framework wouldn't be too bizarre, and I would actually like to get the view point of the different modders on the subject. I know most people aren't fan of the gag talk auto-randomized-failing you when you try to talk to an NPC. Not everybody is a masochist.

 

Please don't get me started on how obnoxious the current system is, I already feel my blood boiling.

 

I never said it was the best but dropping it entirely is still a dumb idea, if I had to come up with an idea right now to replace it I would say:

 

IDEA 

 

When wearing a gag and pressing "activate" on a NPC it doesn't go into a dialogue menu as soon as you press "activate" it has a top message that says something of the effect of "Success" or "Speech craft to low" or "failed" while still doing that gag sound everytime you activate an npc

 

ON FAILURE

If it fails you can't talk to that NPC unless you have a quill + roll of paper (like Gags+.) or wait to try again 

 

ON SUCCESS 

It takes you straight into dialogue.

 

1.) Depending on the NPC they can also choose to ignore you and choose not to speak with someone with a gag on.

 

2.) but also the longer you wear it the more used to it you get you will have better chance to be able to speak to someone.

 

But the reason I like the current system is when you go into the gagtalk people act like you have a gag on instead of just not being able to speak at all and nobody having any general reactions.

[bicobus]

 

My point is the framework should not care if the player is able to talk or not. It's the job of the mods, and beside DCL I know not of a mod that implement a gag talk mechanic. So dropping it from the framework wouldn't be too bizarre, and I would actually like to get the view point of the different modders on the subject. I know most people aren't fan of the gag talk auto-randomized-failing you when you try to talk to an NPC. Not everybody is a masochist.

 

Please don't get me started on how obnoxious the current system is, I already feel my blood boiling.

 

I never said it was the best but dropping it entirely is still a dumb idea, if I had to come up with an idea right now to replace it I would say:

 

IDEA 

 

When wearing a gag and pressing "activate" on a NPC it doesn't go into a dialogue menu as soon as you press "activate" it has a top message that says something of the effect of "Success" or "Speech craft to low" or "failed" while still doing that gag sound everytime you activate an npc

 

ON FAILURE

If it fails you can't talk to that NPC unless you have a quill + roll of paper like Gags+.

 

ON SUCCESS 

It takes you straight into dialogue.

 

1.) Depending on the NPC they can also choose to ignore you and choose not to speak with someone with a gag on.

 

2.) but also the longer you wear it the more used to it you get you will have better chance to be able to speak to someone.

 

But the reason I like the current system is when you go into the gagtalk people act like you have a gag on instead of just not being able to speak at all and nobody having any general reactions.

 

That's a third party mod mechanic, it has nothing to do in a framework. The framework should concern itself to "can the PC talk or not". And default to "can talk", regardless of the gag, if nothing is saying otherwise.