Why to use NMM instead of MO?

[Kimy]

 

I use NMM because MO doesn't offer any features I'd be interested in (I don't need profiling).

Alright so you did not only skip reading my post (or anyone elses on the topic of MO) after the first line, but you never tried to figure out why people use MO. It's not the profiles, but the virtual file system.

 

I did read your post (how do I think I was able to quote you?). I just think it's full of b.s. And I already said that I don't like the virtual file system and why. It's a completely overhyped feature and has absolutely zero use for ME personally. The ONE thing it has going for it is that MO can switch between profiles faster than NMM. That's fine. I don't need that, though. I rarely ever switch out mods. I update them only between playthroughs. And the price of this (IMHO) dirty hack is a truckload of more complexity, particularly for development. Which brings me to the next thing:

 

And because it's an absolute pain in the behind to set up MO for development and IMHO offers zero advantages over NMM for that purpose (all it does is making things more complicated for modding).

That is blatantly wrong:

It is easy to set up MO for developing, you add the executable to MO and that's it.

And it does not make modding more complicated, in fact it is perfectly easy and failsafe because you never have to copy your mod files manually from the game folders. Anything you create in programs ran through MO directly ends up in its own standalone mod folder, ready to zip and upload.

But again see above, apparently you never bothered to figure out how MO works.

 

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

It just take 5 times longer and a lot of tinkering to get external development tools working with MO that otherwise would work straight out of the box/ But MO is sooooo much easier and better!

 

I giggled!

 

For version control I use an actual versioning control system btw. Not a mod manager. For the same reason why I wouldn't use a screwdriver to drive in a nail. So if that's the oh-so-awesome reason why MO would be superior for development, I would suggest using proper tools for the job, rather. And I stand by what I said that after two years of modding and creating one of the larger mods on LL, I still cannot see one single compelling reason what MO would offer me to get my job done better. All it does for modders is making things more complicated.

 

The idea of a mod manager is to be able to cleanly install and uninstall mods. That's all. As long as it can do that (and NMM can), it doesn't matter if it puts your mods directly into your Skyrim installation.

And again wrong on both accounts.

NMM is not able to make a clean uninstall of mods, it has never been and given the competency in the NMM dev team it likely never will. The basic idea of the program is already unfitting for mods that overwrite thousands of files with each other.

And yes having a clean Skyrim install is essential for mods and the game itself to work, or why do you think that NMM users have to "reinstall Skyrim again" all over?

 

I have been using NMM for years and it -once- failed to properly uninstall a mod. After I deleted its files, it automatically corrected its own database. It also -does- keep track of what it overwrites. And I never "had' to reinstall Skyrim unless I wanted to. Again, you are just spreading uninformed, biased bullshit. Hint: They actually improved NMM over the years. It's actually fairly solid software now. And it doesn't use questionable hacks to get its job done.

 

That MO has an extremely rabid and outright nasty fanbase that thinks of itself to be so much smarter than others and calls people not using MO "clinically insane" (thank you, Guk!) doesn't mean it's the best mod manager. For some people MO is the the better choice, for others (like me) NMM is. They both have advantages and both have issues you need to accept and work around. People need to think about what they need their mod manager to do and then pick the one that suits them best. That's really all.

We could talk about fanboying if this was a matter of taste, like "CBBE or UNP", "Sushi or Pizza" and the like.

But essentially the way how MO has revolutionized modding for users and authors is clearly out of debate. While NMM has absolutely no advantages whatsover.

 

It's not a matter of taste, it's a matter of picking the correct tool for the job. For some MO is indeed the better choice. If you switch around mods every day and use different characters for different playthoughs using different mods, by all means, MO is for you. But what you lot fail to realize is that not everyone has the same expectations towards a mod manager. Again, I don't do anything that would require profiling, I need a stable development environment more than anything. And I never tinker with my load order during a playthrough. MO's advantages don't do ANYTHING for me. The oh-so-awesome virtual directory does exactly NOTHING for me, it just makes harder what I actually WANT to do. When installing and uninstalling mods, speed isn't an issue for me. I picked the mod manager that's working for ME. It's not "taste", it's a decision based on logic and reason. And I really don't appreciate some self-righteous, half-informed, arrogant bully calling me "clinically insane" for picking a tool that WORKS FOR ME and apparently a lot of others.

 

[Slorm]

 

 

 

 

I use NMM because MO doesn't offer any features I'd be interested in (I don't need profiling).

Alright so you did not only skip reading my post (or anyone elses on the topic of MO) after the first line, but you never tried to figure out why people use MO. It's not the profiles, but the virtual file system.

 

And because it's an absolute pain in the behind to set up MO for development and IMHO offers zero advantages over NMM for that purpose (all it does is making things more complicated for modding).

That is blatantly wrong:

It is easy to set up MO for developing, you add the executable to MO and that's it.

And it does not make modding more complicated, in fact it is perfectly easy and failsafe because you never have to copy your mod files manually from the game folders. Anything you create in programs ran through MO directly ends up in its own standalone mod folder, ready to zip and upload.

But again see above, apparently you never bothered to figure out how MO works.

 

The idea of a mod manager is to be able to cleanly install and uninstall mods. That's all. As long as it can do that (and NMM can), it doesn't matter if it puts your mods directly into your Skyrim installation.

And again wrong on both accounts.

NMM is not able to make a clean uninstall of mods, it has never been and given the competency in the NMM dev team it likely never will. The basic idea of the program is already unfitting for mods that overwrite thousands of files with each other.

 

 

And yes having a clean Skyrim install is essential for mods and the game itself to work, or why do you think that NMM users have to "reinstall Skyrim again" all over?

 

Speak for yourself and don't generalize.

I use NMM and I never had to uninstall Skyrim because of it ... ever.

I run a lot of mods and my oldest save is about 1000hr old and in perfect condition.

And like @Kimy said NMM does everything I need from a mod manager right 'out of the box', so why would I ever complicate things? Add executables, read instructions, follow directions ... just why?  

P.S. I use NMM 0.50.3 and no I don't like the new NMM - it's trying to copy MO and it sucks at it.

 

 

+1

 

Same here, I have used both the older version of NMM and the current version and neither have ever given me a problem. I suspect the reason that some have a problem is that they do not understand how things work.

 

I have used MO as well (and Wrye Bash), on balance I found NMM suited my needs the best

 

It would also help if MO users remembered it's a mod manager not a religion.

 

As this seems to be a toxic subject every time it comes up perhaps this thread needs locking

 

[Jerbsinator]

NMM is terrible, can't stand it. I used it a while in Skyrim and hated it, changed to Wyrmbash which destroys NMM in every way, never went back from there. Went to MO for Fallout 4. It is fine and works great, never had a problem with it. It's easy to understand once you figure it out. Something about NMM just scream "corporate" to me and I don't care for that. It's nice to have a place to get mods from but not a fan of their tactics....but alas I am getting off topic, this is not about the Nexus...well not really.

[the_mess]

The ONLY reason I keep using NMM is because I just press download and I am ready to go. I am too damn lazy to do the manual install like back in the Fallout 3 days when I refused to use the NMM. I know that NMM is shit but its the best method for lazy asses.

[Darth_Falcon]

I use Mod Organizer over NMM because with MO if I want to change which file is overwriting which, all I have to do is drag the file I want to be the "winner" below the other conflicting file in priority. With NMM, you would have to reinstall the mod, which can be a pain when a particularly large mod which takes a bit of time to install (i.e. NMC's Texture Pack for New Vegas) is overwritten by a different texture and you decide you like the NMC version better.

[RitualClarity]

I use Mod Organizer over NMM because with MO if I want to change which file is overwriting which, all I have to do is drag the file I want to be the "winner" below the other conflicting file in priority. With NMM, you would have to reinstall the mod, which can be a pain when a particularly large mod which takes a bit of time to install (i.e. NMC's Texture Pack for New Vegas) is overwritten by a different texture and you decide you like the NMC version better.

 

This gives an example that needs to be explained a bit more. I don't know how to do this in NMM but in MO you can actually see the conflicts and what mods they are from. Sometimes it is difficult to find a conflict in a very large load order. MO helps with this. From there you can do as Darth states and move it up or down to resolve the conflict. ... another option is to go into the actual files and "hide" it. It is still installed but hidden and never will give another problem. Some tools are repeated in mods and doing this helps keep the mod list cleaner and easier to work. The NMM way is to reinstall the mod(s) if needed and be aware of the exact order you need to install them so that they overwrite each other. During the re-installation you need to be aware of the conflicts and state to overwrite or not to overwrite the files. You can easily get the same results with a complex mod install just a different approach and that approach is preference.

 

So as you can see you can use either manager to install complex mods. you just need to KNOW what to do and how to do it which is more important as you get more and more complex mod installations. NNM is dead simple to install mods at first... if you have a more complex install requirement it gets more complex as you go forward. MO is a bit more complex to get some of the mods installed and set up at first .. as time goes on however you can make changes to your load order "on the fly" without ever having to reinstall a mod again... ever.  Two approaches. Neither of them wrong.

 

I prefer MO approach to modding personally however have no problem using FOMM, NMM or other managers provided they have the tools I need to get the job done. Any issues with loose files getting into the data folder is easy fix. Just delete the loose folders/files and any esm/esp/BSAs that get in the folder that aren't original... re-verify cache and get back to modding. Never need to reinstall the mods. Just remove the files you don't need. Same goes for the main folder. Confused with the Script extenders and updates and other tools? Want to clean up.. delete everything you aren't sure of... re-verify cache and reinstall the tools again. Easy peasy. I never was one to be fearful of having a corrupted Data folder, early Fallout 4 mods were manually installed and yes... each time I wanted to change things up.. I just clean the folder and verified cache, reinstalled the mods (sometimes a repack of the mod was necessary) and in about 10 minutes I was ready to play again.

[I'm The Wabbit]

I use MO because it doesn't put mods inside my game folder, forcing me to reinstall the game when something happens or breaks. Wish more mod managers for other games did this.

[SuccubusAlexa]

I use MO because I had mods I was using with NMM that crash my game tried out MO no more ctd.

[Uhuru N'Uru]

Must disagree with Kimy, about MO being difficult to use with 3rd party tools, there are two factors.

 

For any 3rd party tool to see the Virtual data folder, it must be run through MO, and as MO is 32-bit, the tools must be 32-bit.

That's the only problem you have to deal with.

 

Though this used to be an issue with the Papyrus Compiler, it no longer is, as it turned out to be a simple matter to fix. Using this mod;

Papyrus Compiler Patch for x64 Systems at Skyrim Nexus - mods and community

 

Far from being useless profiles allow you to quickly switch between different setups from Vanilla to multiple modded ones, for testing your mod, efficiently.

NMM profiles, only work, if you never use any 3rd party tools at all, even for users, mods like FNIS, Bodyslide, PerMa (or any SkyProc Mod), etc.will break it's methology.

 

The reason is NMM uses Hard Links and/or Symbolic Links to switch profiles around, and all 3rd Party tools, including Enderal's Launcher, break these links if they change or move a file, and Enderal moves them all!

Plus no new files are managed by NMM, so all these files are left in the Data folder when you switch.

 

The simple fact is, niether manager is perfect, and though I'm part of the MO support Team, I must say, both have their merits, but in all honesty for Skyrim.

FoMM beats NMM any day of the week, it avoids the profiles issue, and has more useful features (NMM was an inferior FoMM port, at the start of it's life).

 

Fallout 4 is another matter, being 64-bit, MO2 is 64-bit, but isn't ready or released yet, it can be used, by the most advanced users, but it;s still an alpha. NMM is the only choice, but I gave up on F4 long ago, so don't keep up with the latest info.

 

In general for single profile use NMM is fine, FoMM is even better for 32-bit.

Advanced uses for games before Skyrim, should consider Wrye Bash, which is great for them, not so good for Skyrim.

 

MO is an advanced manager, for users who want either multi-profile abilities, or the advanced control on an individual file and/or mod basis.

No other manager can do that, for Skyrim.

 

Ultimately, you decide what's best for yiour needs, and all managers have good and bad points, even MO, good as it is, isn't perfect

Shocking I know, to be part of the team, and not call it perfect, but it didn't become so good, by ignoring the flaws.

[Sharkness Monster]

I don't really use either of them, I manually install for everything(except the ones that are only used for NMM)

I haven't used MO yet so I can't make an assumption about it.

[RitualClarity]

 

The simple fact is, niether manager is perfect, and though I'm part of the MO support Team, I must say, both have their merits, but in all honesty for Skyrim.

FoMM beats NMM any day of the week, it avoids the profiles issue, and has more useful features (NMM was an inferior FoMM port, at the start of it's life).

 

You use FOMM for Skyrim? (or better phrased can use it)

[Kimy]

Must disagree with Kimy, about MO being difficult to use with 3rd party tools, there are two factors.

 

For any 3rd party tool to see the Virtual data folder, it must be run through MO, and as MO is 32-bit, the tools must be 32-bit.

That's the only problem you have to deal with.

 

Wrong. The problem really is that with MO I have to do SOMETHING (actually a lot) to get 3rd party tools to run, when in NMM I don't have to do ANYTHING. They just run. Having to do no work at all is objectively better than having to work just to get the same result, no?

Far from being useless profiles allow you to quickly switch between different setups from Vanilla to multiple modded ones, for testing your mod, efficiently.

NMM profiles, only work, if you never use any 3rd party tools at all, even for users, mods like FNIS, Bodyslide, PerMa (or any SkyProc Mod), etc.will break it's methology.

 

I don't see why I would -really- need this feature. I have the set of mods I am trying to be compatible with installed in my load order. If there would be an issue I'd notice the conflict right away and fix it. To track down compatibility issues, TES5Edit and being able to enable/disable the ESP in the load order is enough to find and fix any issue around 100% of the time, and NMM can do THAT just nicely. I officially don't support any mod not officially supported by my mod. Given the sheer number of mods around, it's an exercise in futility to try to compatible with them all. If I really want to test my mod with somebody else's that I got reported to clash with, I install it quick, test the issue and then uninstall it again. Yes, NMM can do that. Cleanly so.

 

The reason is NMM uses Hard Links and/or Symbolic Links to switch profiles around,

 

Yes, that's the -clean- way to implement this feature. Which is why I personally prefer it.

 

The simple fact is, niether manager is perfect, and though I'm part of the MO support Team, I must say, both have their merits, but in all honesty for Skyrim.

FoMM beats NMM any day of the week, it avoids the profiles issue, and has more useful features (NMM was an inferior FoMM port, at the start of it's life).

 

Agreed here. I can't stress enough that I am in no shape or form a NMM fangirl. I use NMM because it suits -my- preferences. What I object to is when people keep saying how superior MO is to any other mod manager around and that everyone not using it must be some variant of stupid.

 

Fallout 4 is another matter, being 64-bit, MO2 is 64-bit, but isn't ready or released yet, it can be used, by the most advanced users, but it;s still an alpha. NMM is the only choice, but I gave up on F4 long ago, so don't keep up with the latest info.

 

Off topic, but give the game another chance when the circumstance that it might have to failed to meet some expectations you might have had has faded enough. I had not much expectations. And while I could list you a few things I disliked about FO4, I must say it's a really solid game.

 

In general for single profile use NMM is fine

 

Yes, that's why it works for me. One profile is all I really need. For playing and for developing. And I don't have to deal with how to get my development tools to run with a mod manager that does unorthodox things with the game's directory structure.

 

MO is an advanced manager, for users who want either multi-profile abilities, or the advanced control on an individual file and/or mod basis.

No other manager can do that, for Skyrim.

 

I consider myself to be a fairly advanced user. At least if developing one of the largest mods on LL in terms of lines of code constitutes being "advanced", I dunno. And I still would think it's a matter of what you want and how you work. Using MO doesn't make you a pro, and not using it doesn't make you a noob. I know people still writing code in VIM. Personally, I prefer my code editor to be a tad more modern than that. But that's just me and how I work. In this case...I guess I am living proof that MO is in no shape or fashion needed for developing a working mod. It boils down to how you work.

 

Ultimately, you decide what's best for yiour needs, and all managers have good and bad points,

 

That's exactly what I am trying to say.

 

[Guest]

Wow the debate is actually somewhat civil this time around.... for now lol

[I'm The Wabbit]

 

Must disagree with Kimy, about MO being difficult to use with 3rd party tools, there are two factors.

 

For any 3rd party tool to see the Virtual data folder, it must be run through MO, and as MO is 32-bit, the tools must be 32-bit.

That's the only problem you have to deal with.

 

Wrong. The problem really is that with MO I have to do SOMETHING (actually a lot) to get 3rd party tools to run, when in NMM I don't have to do ANYTHING. They just run. Having to do no work at all is objectively better than having to work just to get the same result, no?

Far from being useless profiles allow you to quickly switch between different setups from Vanilla to multiple modded ones, for testing your mod, efficiently.

NMM profiles, only work, if you never use any 3rd party tools at all, even for users, mods like FNIS, Bodyslide, PerMa (or any SkyProc Mod), etc.will break it's methology.

 

I don't see why I would -really- need this feature. I have the set of mods I am trying to be compatible with installed in my load order. If there would be an issue I'd notice the conflict right away and fix it. To track down compatibility issues, TES5Edit and being able to enable/disable the ESP in the load order is enough to find and fix any issue around 100% of the time, and NMM can do THAT just nicely. I officially don't support any mod not officially supported by my mod. Given the sheer number of mods around, it's an exercise in futility to try to compatible with them all. If I really want to test my mod with somebody else's that I got reported to clash with, I install it quick, test the issue and then uninstall it again. Yes, NMM can do that. Cleanly so.

 

The reason is NMM uses Hard Links and/or Symbolic Links to switch profiles around,

 

Yes, that's the -clean- way to implement this feature. Which is why I personally prefer it.

 

The simple fact is, niether manager is perfect, and though I'm part of the MO support Team, I must say, both have their merits, but in all honesty for Skyrim.

FoMM beats NMM any day of the week, it avoids the profiles issue, and has more useful features (NMM was an inferior FoMM port, at the start of it's life).

 

Agreed here. I can't stress enough that I am in no shape or form a NMM fangirl. I use NMM because it suits -my- preferences. What I object to is when people keep saying how superior MO is to any other mod manager around and that everyone not using it must be some variant of stupid.

 

Fallout 4 is another matter, being 64-bit, MO2 is 64-bit, but isn't ready or released yet, it can be used, by the most advanced users, but it;s still an alpha. NMM is the only choice, but I gave up on F4 long ago, so don't keep up with the latest info.

 

Off topic, but give the game another chance when the circumstance that it might have to failed to meet some expectations you might have had has faded enough. I had not much expectations. And while I could list you a few things I disliked about FO4, I must say it's a really solid game.

 

In general for single profile use NMM is fine

 

Yes, that's why it works for me. One profile is all I really need. For playing and for developing. And I don't have to deal with how to get my development tools to run with a mod manager that does unorthodox things with the game's directory structure.

 

MO is an advanced manager, for users who want either multi-profile abilities, or the advanced control on an individual file and/or mod basis.

No other manager can do that, for Skyrim.

 

I consider myself to be a fairly advanced user. At least if developing one of the largest mods on LL in terms of lines of code constitutes being "advanced", I dunno. And I still would think it's a matter of what you want and how you work. Using MO doesn't make you a pro, and not using it doesn't make you a noob. I know people still writing code in VIM. Personally, I prefer my code editor to be a tad more modern than that. But that's just me and how I work. In this case...I guess I am living proof that MO is in no shape or fashion needed for developing a working mod. It boils down to how you work.

 

Ultimately, you decide what's best for yiour needs, and all managers have good and bad points,

 

That's exactly what I am trying to say.

 

 

Every time you talk about MO, you sound like it killed your family and you have a vendetta against it. Did it just blow up your computer one day or something?

[Yotix]

I tried both. If I remember right. NMM can't order mods, has shitty handling, and doesn't have tools integrated. It's a toy for adding mods.

MO, once you figured out the UI and some basic concepts, is a powerful tool for installing, maintaining and repairing a modded Skyrim.

[RitualClarity]

I tried both. If I remember right. NMM can't order mods, has shitty handling, and doesn't have tools integrated. It's a toy for adding mods.

MO, once you figured out the UI and some basic concepts, is a powerful tool for installing, maintaining and repairing a modded Skyrim.

It has loot built in just like MO to help order the mods.

It can run or configure FO4edit and even Bodyslide (drop down tools haven't used it so don't know how good the set up is but I believe it is good)

Auto-configures the script extenders as well. Can check for mod updates (something MO can't) however some state it isn't fully functional (not sure if the current version has that issue. I haven't had one yet with my Fallout 4)

 

I use both. MO for the rest of the games and NMM for Fallout 4 since MO isn't up to the task yet. (Alpha) So far it works just fine for my needs. The use of most other tools don't need the added work that is needed to be done with MO so there isn't any need to add some of the other tools to be integrated. just use them normally.

 

I prefer MO however have no problem using NMM when needed. Both handle the mods and tools (that I needed to use so far) perfectly fine. Just have to approach the task of modding slightly differently.

 

[Yotix]

 

I tried both. If I remember right. NMM can't order mods, has shitty handling, and doesn't have tools integrated. It's a toy for adding mods.

MO, once you figured out the UI and some basic concepts, is a powerful tool for installing, maintaining and repairing a modded Skyrim.

It has loot built in just like MO to help order the mods.

It can run or configure FO4edit and even Bodyslide (drop down tools haven't used it so don't know how good the set up is but I believe it is good)

Auto-configures the script extenders as well. Can check for mod updates (something MO can't) however some state it isn't fully functional (not sure if the current version has that issue. I haven't had one yet with my Fallout 4)

 

I use both. MO for the rest of the games and NMM for Fallout 4 since MO isn't up to the task yet. (Alpha) So far it works just fine for my needs. The use of most other tools don't need the added work that is needed to be done with MO so there isn't any need to add some of the other tools to be integrated. just use them normally.

 

I prefer MO however have no problem using NMM when needed. Both handle the mods and tools (that I needed to use so far) perfectly fine. Just have to approach the task of modding slightly differently.

 

OK then I just failed to notice many of NMM's features  Thanks for the info. Sorry if I wrote nonsense.

 

... I remember switching to MO because some mod recommended using a Loverslab custom build of MO. After a day or so of despair, I started to really like MO.

[Uhuru N'Uru]

 

 

The simple fact is, niether manager is perfect, and though I'm part of the MO support Team, I must say, both have their merits, but in all honesty for Skyrim.

FoMM beats NMM any day of the week, it avoids the profiles issue, and has more useful features (NMM was an inferior FoMM port, at the start of it's life).

 

You use FOMM for Skyrim? (or better phrased can use it)

No I only use MO for all the games it supports (32-bit). Don't play F4, a big letdown

However I know it can be used for Skyrim, and even Gopher prefers it to NMM, and said so in a stream, shortly before he switched to MO.

I know there's an updated fork, which is now the goto version.

Fallout Mod Manager - FOMM - Fork by Q Timeslip and kaburke

 

 

Must disagree with Kimy, about MO being difficult to use with 3rd party tools, there are two factors.

 

For any 3rd party tool to see the Virtual data folder, it must be run through MO, and as MO is 32-bit, the tools must be 32-bit.

That's the only problem you have to deal with.

 

Wrong. The problem really is that with MO I have to do SOMETHING (actually a lot) to get 3rd party tools to run, when in NMM I don't have to do ANYTHING. They just run. Having to do no work at all is objectively better than having to work just to get the same result, no?

 

What tools, can you be specific?

Do they actually need to operate on the data folder as an whole, like say xEdit/FNIS etc, we try to actually fix these issues, if we know of them.

The Papyrus Compiler fix was made by DoubleYou, one of the MO Support team, for instance.

 

I'm not aware of any tools, that are not 64-bit, actually requiring full access to the entire data folder, that need anything other than running from within MO, which isn't a big deal, it's just like making a shortcut for the desktop, one that  can be added to MO's toolbar.

If only the file needs accessing, that doesn't need MO running at all.

 

Please elaborate, as genuine issues need solutions, if we can solve the problems, others will benefit, whether you use MO or not.

 

The reason is NMM uses Hard Links and/or Symbolic Links to switch profiles around, and all 3rd Party tools, including Enderal's Launcher, break these links if they change or move a file, and Enderal moves them all!

Plus no new files are managed by NMM, so all these files are left in the Data folder when you switch.

 

Yes, that's the -clean- way to implement this feature. Which is why I personally prefer it

I've re-added the important point, you cut out, and there's nothing -clean- about it

I'll elaborate

 

Here you are 100% mistaken, but as you don't use profiles, you won't see the issues it causes, and as the only reason for using this in NMM is to switch profiles, it defeats the entire point.

 

Any 3rd party interference, including making manual alterations, breaks the links NMM relies on, change, copy or move any file with anything other than NMM, and the link is broken, when you come to switch that profile, the broken links and all new files made outside NMM will remain in the data folder.

NMM thinks it's removed them, when it hasn't, and it never has control of new files made outside NMM

 

This is a serious flaw that is entirely ignored, mods like FNIS, Bodyslide, SkyProc Mods, or any mod that changes the data Folders contents, and unlike MO, starting these tools within NMM has no effect on this issue.

 

Even a single Profile user has the issue, they just don't suffer the results, because they never switch, but its one of the reason FoMM is still better for the 32-bit games.

Tannin MO's author rejected these type of links early in the planning stage, because they simply can't cope with any 3rd party tools or manual changes.

MO can, but it's never easy and the biggest issue for MO is new files.

 

The main advantage of MO's system is Mod Isolation, MO knows which mod every file comes from, and more importantly it provides the user with this information.

It makes conflict resolution much easier in MO, and the Mod install Order, which is call Mod Priority in MO, as it's not just set at install time, but is as easy to alter as the Load Order, using simple drag and drop.

 

MO defines a mod as a Folder which gives incredible granular control, if required, what authors do with FoMod installers, can be done in MO by activating the folders in the FoMod on a profile by profile basis.

 

When you are hitting the maximum plugin limits, and have a mod list in the thousands, I have 1200 individual Mods/Folders at this moment, knowing where each file comes from, what wins and loses conflicts, is invaluable.

 

That's what I mean by advanced manager, Wrye Bash is great for older games, and even has features MO lacks, but I can run Wrye Bash through MO, and use it's best attributes, with MO, and sadly the WB team stopped development on Skyrim, when the Workshop appeared, and decided to merge, the separate Wrye mods, it's still unfinished. NMM also changed course, and ceased Skyrim development, becoming the jack of all games, master of none it is today.

 

Only MO stuck to making itself the best it could be for Skyrim, I only started modding in April 2013, and chose MO as the best, and more importantly only manager being actively developed to mod Skyrim.

 

Regardless of whether you use it or not, nothing gives the Skyrim user the tools that MO has, and it doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, but uses the best tool for the job, required. Even using Wrye Bash to make a bashed patch.

 

The STEP team were avid Wrye Bash users, yet 6 months after I made my choice, they switched to MO, for the same basic reason I selected it from the start, and that was before MO support moved to the STEP site.

 

MO was the only Manager in active development for Skyrim, above and beyond all the Mod Isolation features, I found so useful.

The others were standing still, and stagnating, that lasted for two years. Neither WB or NMM has improved, for Skyrim since then.

MO got better and better, and in time, issues with the older games, were also solved. UIO replaced Gopher's UnifiedHUD, and that was the last major issue solved.

None of that makes any difference to what you choose to use, if NMM suits your needs, it's fine, but it's simply not as advanced as Wrye Bash or MO.

Both can do much more than NMM is capable of, Wrye Bash even has profiles, by moving the entire Data folder in and out, it's slow,  that's the only "-clean- " way to implement this feature.

 

Personally I prefer a clean (Vanilla) data folder, and only MO does that.

 

[Kimy]

 

 

Every time you talk about MO, you sound like it killed your family and you have a vendetta against it. Did it just blow up your computer one day or something?

 

 

If you had read my post, you would have noticed that I said more than once that I have absolutely nothing against MO and can totally understand why some people use it. What I really DO mind is the MO fan crowd calling NMM users stupid for not using MO and insisting that MO would be so much better than any other mod manager in every possible regard, when that's just objectively wrong. Seriously, these people make me feel as if I'd be debating religion with a cult. They are rabid, aggressive, devoid of any objectivity and often enough have very limited clue of what they are talking about. The simple truth is that every mod manager has something going for it and caters to different preferences and different use cases. And that's a good thing. Diversity always is. MO users should finally accept and respect that and stop behaving like a bunch of zealots - and that happens a LOT with these folks.

 

[Kimy]

 

Must disagree with Kimy, about MO being difficult to use with 3rd party tools, there are two factors.

 

For any 3rd party tool to see the Virtual data folder, it must be run through MO, and as MO is 32-bit, the tools must be 32-bit.

That's the only problem you have to deal with.

 

Wrong. The problem really is that with MO I have to do SOMETHING (actually a lot) to get 3rd party tools to run, when in NMM I don't have to do ANYTHING. They just run. Having to do no work at all is objectively better than having to work just to get the same result, no?

 

What tools, can you be specific?

Do they actually need to operate on the data folder as an whole, like say xEdit/FNIS etc, we try to actually fix these issues, if we know of them.

The Papyrus Compiler fix was made by DoubleYou, one of the MO Support team, for instance.

 

I'm not aware of any tools, that are not 64-bit, actually requiring full access to the entire data folder, that need anything other than running from within MO, which isn't a big deal, it's just like making a shortcut for the desktop, one that  can be added to MO's toolbar.

If only the file needs accessing, that doesn't need MO running at all.

 

Please elaborate, as genuine issues need solutions, if we can solve the problems, others will benefit, whether you use MO or not.

 

I never said that I couldn't get my tools to run with MO. I know that it is possible and trust me, I would be perfectly able to configure it properly. My point is that configuring all this stuff to run with MO is -work- and adds complexity. Work that I simply don't have to do when using NMM. Because NMM doesn't mess with file structure at runtime, so the tools find them where they expect them to be.

 

The reason is NMM uses Hard Links and/or Symbolic Links to switch profiles around, and all 3rd Party tools, including Enderal's Launcher, break these links if they change or move a file, and Enderal moves them all!

Plus no new files are managed by NMM, so all these files are left in the Data folder when you switch.

 

Yes, that's the -clean- way to implement this feature. Which is why I personally prefer it

I've re-added the important point, you cut out, and there's nothing -clean- about it

I'll elaborate

 

I am a software engineer. What I meant with "clean way to implement" is that the way any modern OS I am aware of expects file and folder structures to be mirrored is using hard or symbolic links. What MO does to do its magic is essentially a dirty hack in my book. Yes, it works. Sort of. The price is MO not playing overly nice with 3rd party tools since they don't expect the file system to (ab)used like that, see above) But I don't exactly consider this implementation something I'd teach in a CS class, if you know what I mean.

 

This is a serious flaw that is entirely ignored, mods like FNIS, Bodyslide, SkyProc Mods, or any mod that changes the data Folders contents, and unlike MO, starting these tools within NMM has no effect on this issue.

 

I have already conceded that MO is the better choice if you want to use profiling heavily. I am not sure what I else to say. But I already said multiple times that I don't that and a lot of other people don't either. Yes, due to the nature of what they do, FNIS and Bodyslide need to change Data files post-install. These are the ONLY two mods I am aware of having a truly good reason to do that. Don't get me started on PerMa and other hyper-invasive mods that act as if compatibility would be something only other modders ever need to care about.

So if you switch profiles with NMM, go ahead and double click FNIS after NMM is done switching. Click. Click. If required, let Bodyslide run as well. Click, click. It's not rocket science, and as long as you don't switch profiles 10 times a day, neither is it work. You can run them from NMM even. The only difference to MO is that you have to remember doing it.

 

The main advantage of MO's system is Mod Isolation, MO knows which mod every file comes from, and more importantly it provides the user with this information.

It makes conflict resolution much easier in MO, and the Mod install Order, which is call Mod Priority in MO, as it's not just set at install time, but is as easy to alter as the Load Order, using simple drag and drop.

 

No dispute from me, but the only true use case for mod isolation I can think of is switching profiles fast. Which again is of no concern to you if you don't or rarely do that. You can drag and drop mods in NMM to change their order too, btw. Also it -does- keep track which mod installed what file. I am not sure why MO fans constantly argue as if NMM would just dump files into your Data folder as if it would be a garbage bin. It keeps a database if what and where it installs it. It can uninstall mods just as cleanly as MO.

 

When you are hitting the maximum plugin limits, and have a mod list in the thousands, I have 1200 individual Mods/Folders at this moment, knowing where each file comes from, what wins and loses conflicts, is invaluable.

 

I never had more than 170 mods in my load order. I guess that's why the two of us prefer different mod managers. We simply have different needs. I want the best possible and most stable development environment. You want to handle loads of mods.

 

Only MO stuck to making itself the best it could be for Skyrim, I only started modding in April 2013, and chose MO as the best, and more importantly only manager being actively developed to mod Skyrim.

 

That's a little hyperbole, considering that NMM had countless releases in the last year. No, it's not being developed specifically for Skyrim, but I like that I can use it for FO3 and FO4 as well.

Personally I prefer a clean (Vanilla) data folder, and only MO does that.

 

That's perfectly fine. But I still don't care about this feature. All I want is a mod manager that can keep track of what it installs and is able to uninstall mods cleanly again. NMM can do that. Due to its method of implementing tracking and conflict resolution, it's slower than MO at un/installing mods, but it doesn't change the fact that it works just as well and doesn't add unwanted complexity for developing mods. I keep saying this a lot, but people really have different needs and work differently.

 

 

[RitualClarity]

 

 

I tried both. If I remember right. NMM can't order mods, has shitty handling, and doesn't have tools integrated. It's a toy for adding mods.

MO, once you figured out the UI and some basic concepts, is a powerful tool for installing, maintaining and repairing a modded Skyrim.

It has loot built in just like MO to help order the mods.

It can run or configure FO4edit and even Bodyslide (drop down tools haven't used it so don't know how good the set up is but I believe it is good)

Auto-configures the script extenders as well. Can check for mod updates (something MO can't) however some state it isn't fully functional (not sure if the current version has that issue. I haven't had one yet with my Fallout 4)

 

I use both. MO for the rest of the games and NMM for Fallout 4 since MO isn't up to the task yet. (Alpha) So far it works just fine for my needs. The use of most other tools don't need the added work that is needed to be done with MO so there isn't any need to add some of the other tools to be integrated. just use them normally.

 

I prefer MO however have no problem using NMM when needed. Both handle the mods and tools (that I needed to use so far) perfectly fine. Just have to approach the task of modding slightly differently.

 

OK then I just failed to notice many of NMM's features  Thanks for the info. Sorry if I wrote nonsense.

 

... I remember switching to MO because some mod recommended using a Loverslab custom build of MO. After a day or so of despair, I started to really like MO.

 

No problem just wanted the info to be there and not be missed in the shuffle. I stated I really like MO but not for Fallout 4 it isn't ready for me to use yet so I use NMM. It does the job well and is simple to use for the most part.

 

Many here on LL do recommend MO for their mods as they develop with the manager as well. It is easier for them to support a mod when the users are using the same manager. Some might not even know the equivalent steps needed to be done for the  NMM users. When something goes wrong that doesn't make sense to them they will likely blame NMM for failing to install the scripts and it might or might not be the cause. (so far nothing choked with my NMM use regardless of me even trying to break it. Take a shit load of time over MO to do a task but it does it and don't fail) I had only one mod that failed to uninstall and left remnant in the Data folder. Not a problem I can clean that up in seconds. To be honest early MO failed as well. I was using an external tool and it glitched with MO and left remnants in the data folder. Which shouldn't have happened.

 

I am not a fan boy of NMM but I can't diss it as it does do the job it is suppose to do, and that is manage mods.

 

 

Seriously, these people make me feel as if I'd be debating religion with a cult. They are rabid, aggressive, devoid of any objectivity and often enough have very limited clue of what they are talking about.

 

Yea MO!

[Uhuru N'Uru]

 

 

 

I tried both. If I remember right. NMM can't order mods, has shitty handling, and doesn't have tools integrated. It's a toy for adding mods.

MO, once you figured out the UI and some basic concepts, is a powerful tool for installing, maintaining and repairing a modded Skyrim.

It has loot built in just like MO to help order the mods.

It can run or configure FO4edit and even Bodyslide (drop down tools haven't used it so don't know how good the set up is but I believe it is good)

Auto-configures the script extenders as well. Can check for mod updates (something MO can't) however some state it isn't fully functional (not sure if the current version has that issue. I haven't had one yet with my Fallout 4)

 

I use both. MO for the rest of the games and NMM for Fallout 4 since MO isn't up to the task yet. (Alpha) So far it works just fine for my needs. The use of most other tools don't need the added work that is needed to be done with MO so there isn't any need to add some of the other tools to be integrated. just use them normally.

 

I prefer MO however have no problem using NMM when needed. Both handle the mods and tools (that I needed to use so far) perfectly fine. Just have to approach the task of modding slightly differently.

 

OK then I just failed to notice many of NMM's features  Thanks for the info. Sorry if I wrote nonsense.

 

... I remember switching to MO because some mod recommended using a Loverslab custom build of MO. After a day or so of despair, I started to really like MO.

 

No problem just wanted the info to be there and not be missed in the shuffle. I stated I really like MO but not for Fallout 4 it isn't ready for me to use yet so I use NMM. It does the job well and is simple to use for the most part.

 

Many here on LL do recommend MO for their mods as they develop with the manager as well. It is easier for them to support a mod when the users are using the same manager. Some might not even know the equivalent steps needed to be done for the  NMM users. When something goes wrong that doesn't make sense to them they will likely blame NMM for failing to install the scripts and it might or might not be the cause. (so far nothing choked with my NMM use regardless of me even trying to break it. Take a shit load of time over MO to do a task but it does it and don't fail) I had only one mod that failed to uninstall and left remnant in the Data folder. Not a problem I can clean that up in seconds. To be honest early MO failed as well. I was using an external tool and it glitched with MO and left remnants in the data folder. Which shouldn't have happened.

 

I am not a fan boy of NMM but I can't diss it as it does do the job it is suppose to do, and that is manage mods.

 

If that last sentence was true, for profiles, I wouldn't have been debating with Kimy, as like you, I understand, if it suits the users needs, it works well enough, but only in single profile usage.

FoMM would be the better choice, even so, as it doesn't use profiles, and is designed without the links NMM now uses.

 

The simple fact is, NMM's profile system just doesn't work with 3rd party tools, this doesn't affect Kimy, but does affect all the NMM users who are unaware of the problems it causes, and use it's profile system, assuming it works.

 

Most NMM users will use things like Bodyslide and FNIS, with the profiles and have no idea that it causes errors when they switch.

You can use the very handy

Link Shell Extension

 

To show you the links, in Explorer, and it also clearly shows when no link exists, on all the files that are left behind.

It is capable of copying and changing Linked files, and I extensively use Sym links on my game folders, to keep Steam games where I want, and fool steam into, running them.

I've extensively used NMM profiles, in XCOM 2, Witcher 3 and Fallout 4, and in every case it's profiles are broken by 3rd party tools.

Leaving befind those files and folders affected when switching.

 

Links used correctly are very useful, but they are not suitable, as used in NMM for profiles.

 

The NMM team is more interested in instigating the proposed share yourr setup system, than fixing this issue.

Users easily switching between setups, will make this problem, much worse, as they pass on what they think is the full setup, only to find it's missing key files that NMM doesn't even know exists.

[RitualClarity]

 

If that last sentence was true, for profiles, I wouldn't have been debating with Kimy, as like you, I understand, if it suits the users needs, it works well enough, but only in single profile usage.

FoMM would be the better choice, even so, as it doesn't use profiles, and is designed without the links NMM now uses.

There are people here that regularly use Profiles (Elf Prince for one)  Might not be the best and you might have to learn how far you can push it but it does work. I used it originally when I installed Fallout 4 and had some mods running. I didn't have many problems although I did have a few (  likely the reason for some data files to leak permanently into the data folder needing to be manually removed) but all those problems were easy fixes with a couple of clicks. Ideal.. no... possible .. yes.

 

You mention FOMM. Most don't even know it was usable for Skyrim I suspect. I didn't..

Also you miss the main reason for the use of NMM by their users. Ease of use. NMM is supported by Nexus modders (for the most part) the site and make it easy for click and install for the newer members. We have members coming here not even knowing how to install a mod because they use the NMM for their mods. I took care of answering some questions for a new member today int he SCR thread. Using FOMM means you have to download these mods manually and work to install them through the manager. Not as easy as NMM.

 

As I answered the OP (I believe) originally the difference is most users of NMM want a dead simple way to work with their mods. Pure and simple. MO doesn't provide that.

 

 

[RitualClarity]

There is a tutorial that Gopher created for skyrim and MO.. it gives a lot of good video info on how to set up MO with many of the common tools you need. If you get time and patience give that a try. Clean out your Skyrim folder (clean install or at least delete all the crap and then verify cache etc) make sure NMM isn't setup for Skyrim and give it a try. Most of the time those that have problems is because the process is different and it takes a bit of time to get use to it. To be honest I had some problems with NMM since it changed from when I last used it so many years ago. I screwed up a few things . Took me a bit and I am still having to look up how to properly backup my game files and such for NMM.

 

There are people here that can help you I believe there is an official MO thread as well as an unofficial one. Also there is Steps etc. If you want to use it and feel it is worth the time to learn and get used to the new methods then have some patience. Some have had three or even 4 times to get used to it. I took about 4 times, not because it was hard but because I got fed up and frustrated and quit and remove it .. each time I learned more and more until I can use it completely for the most part with only occasionally looking up a process I might be doing wrong. (like Body slide) etc.

 

I am one that has no problem with the current NMM system. There is some reports of the profile system being flakey but the rest seems to be working well enough. However that being said... MO is very powerful mod manager. Even Gopher states that on one of his videos that he shows MO and Skyrim tutorials. Very, very powerful. Can't compare it with Wyre bash as I haven't used it enough but it should be on that level or at least close to it (better or worse etc) NMM is still more along the lines of FOMM or OBMM in complexity. getting a bit more with the virtual folders and all that.

 

The key schizobion is to have a manager that you can really understand and works for you how you want it to and does what you need it to do. If your current one does this and you don't need anything more then it isn't needed to move to MO. If you find the features of NMM lacking or you want more from your manager and willing to put in the time and effort to learn the new process then go for it. Get MO and start using it.

 

Case in point.. the current MO for 64 bit isn't where I want it to be for my serous Fallout 4 game plays. Likely won't be there when Skyrim 64bit is released either. So I use the only manager that can do what or close to what I want to do reliably and that is NMM. I'd love it if MO could resolve those few problems and get to a point for a public release so I could use it. And Perhaps later when I am not so serious in my game play in Fallout 4 I might give the current version a try. You get my point. Use the manager that is best for you. If you need help with NMM or MO etc there is loads of support on this site as well as others. You only need the patience and willingness to learn.

[Lady Horus]

I tried NMM once, back when I first started playing Skyrim (we're talking like back in 2013 I think). I didn't like it, it didn't seem to handle the files well and personally I like to know exactly where everything is going and what's overwriting what etc. Before I knew about MO, I was manually installing everything. For quite a long time that is how I played Skyrim and it worked fine. In some ways I miss it, because to me it was easy to drop in a few of my custom textures without fuss or something like that... Buuut ever since I switched to MO a few months back I haven't ever looked back. It really is 100000% easier to manage once the initial set up is done and all the essential programs are linked. I don't even really need profiles either since all my characters use the same one (well, except one I use for testing/screenshots). And making mods with it is also sooooo much easier, because I don't have to go into the file structure in the data folder directly anymore, I can just zip my files, install it once, then edit them in its specific mod directory. There's probably a better way to create mods with MO, but personally I have a method that works for me and that's what matters.

 

Long and short of it is, I definitely prefer MO. I don't know what NMM is like now... if it's true it does the virtual setup like what MO does, then that's probably a lot better. I should think they'd want to improve their mod managing program just as much as anyone else who creates one. It's just a shame it didn't really leave the best impression on me I guess.