Sad state of adult indie games.

[b00marrows]

 

RPGMaker games in general have left a horribly bad taste in my mouth. Violated heroine is actually solid, but there are many many games having money thrown at them that just aren't delivering. Just the mere mention of patreon accounts immediately puts me off of a game. I don't want to slam specific games or "developers" because I don't want to be -too- rude, but it seems honestly like a scam. The sex scenes are bare bones, containing around 3 pictures generally speaking, the engine is underwhelming to say the least (rpgmaker) and it's honestly as if these guys on patreon are just delivering as little content as possible so they can ride out their free ride to easy money per month. And honestly why would ANYONE pay for a game that barely gives you anything (seriously, some of the rewards are ONLY seeing the feed for like 5-10$ per month) and usually DEMAND $20-40 for any actual access to content releases. There is no game on earth I'd pay 30$ per month on. Sometimes these developers don't even deliver anything substantial on the due date. It's like the adult gaming world has turned into a cash crop similar to steam early access and to be honest I've seen better games from mobile developers. I'd much rather pay you full price for a GOOD adult game, made on an ACTUAL GAMING engine, with SOME level of detail. I would gladly give 60$ or even pay you 15$ per month (typical game subscription fee) if I felt I was actually getting my money's worth. Five nights at freddy's is better than some of the garbage coming from these "developers". The people working on sexlab framework and the LOADS of FREE mods here on loverslab do 200% of the work and these guys are doing it basically for free aside from donations that I'm sure almost never come through to them for their hard work.

 

That's my rant. And if you're wondering, whenever I referred to these adult game creators with quotations, it's because they're hardly worthy of being called such. 

 

Now if someone can deliver a game that doesn't farm my wallet to live the high life for delivering me a pile of shit on a platter every month, I'd love to give money to you for an ACTUAL game.

 

I honestly have to agree. Theres a severe oversaturation of those rpg maker games BUT take a look at japanese porn game websites THERE JUST AS OVERSATURATED with god awful rpg maker games. I recently got "ahold" of a game where i almost threw up due to the badly done art in a visual novel (another severly oversaturated ground) in the japanese market. So its possible theres a deeper issue here...

 

You know what really pisses me off?... The Lovers Lab Patreon only makes $1,910/month.

https://www.patreon.com/loverslab?ty=h

 

I've seen that number easily eclipsed by a number of RPG Maker games that have offered very little content other than a demo and vague promises. We know Ashal is capable, and yet it's the guys who put out RPG Maker story demos making more than Ashal is.

 

I'm also convinced these Patreon developers intentionally procrastinate on finishing their games (if they ever do), because they know once they're done, the money stops with it. If you're getting paid to do something from home, why would you compromise that!? lol.

 

Now i have a desktop that can run games well i might be invested in funding lovers lab (i seem to find myself frequenting here more recently too) but honestly fallout 4 is kinda shit, not sure if i wanna help fund a HUGE mod of a game im finding to be a bigger disapointment than skyrim was...

 

.....and threads like this are part of the reason some of us just stop making games.....

people complaiing about the oversaturation and lack of quality in said games is enough to turn them away? im not sure if thats a good or bad thing...

[Hanson]

 

Considering we talk openly about for example violated heroine here, i wouldnt say loli is too extreme for here..... well guess i am trying to find that ominous company now in the net... despite having a feeling, that it wont help me much because i guess its all untranslated work... but you only know by searching...

 

The 3rd rule of LoversLab is: "We may be an adult oriented community, but don't be stupid, don't post anything blatantly illegal. Meaning no discussion or assistance with illegal content such as piracy, game cracks, models or textures taken from the assets of other games, or any depictions of underage persons with exposed nudity or in a sexual context."

 

That's the reason, we can discuss of these topics, but not post, link or provide anything in these topics, but I guess saying go search for Violated Heroine is not a problem.

 

And to post an update about the game i'm making, I made a blog here http://www.loverslab.com/blog/501/entry-2904-dev-blog-01/ , if anyone is interested.

 

 

Yes, but then there is no reason to censor the name of a company if you can say the name of a game without punishment. And I guess the name of the company is not something completly obvious with Lolicon in it, most people wouldnt even realised that.

If the name wouldnt have been censored it wouldnt even got my attention, but now it has... so censoring the name definately rose more attention than not censoring...

[Xpyke]

 

 

Considering we talk openly about for example violated heroine here, i wouldnt say loli is too extreme for here..... well guess i am trying to find that ominous company now in the net... despite having a feeling, that it wont help me much because i guess its all untranslated work... but you only know by searching...

 

The 3rd rule of LoversLab is: "We may be an adult oriented community, but don't be stupid, don't post anything blatantly illegal. Meaning no discussion or assistance with illegal content such as piracy, game cracks, models or textures taken from the assets of other games, or any depictions of underage persons with exposed nudity or in a sexual context."

 

That's the reason, we can discuss of these topics, but not post, link or provide anything in these topics, but I guess saying go search for Violated Heroine is not a problem.

 

And to post an update about the game i'm making, I made a blog here http://www.loverslab.com/blog/501/entry-2904-dev-blog-01/ , if anyone is interested.

 

 

Yes, but then there is no reason to censor the name of a company if you can say the name of a game without punishment. And I guess the name of the company is not something completly obvious with Lolicon in it, most people wouldnt even realised that.

If the name wouldnt have been censored it wouldnt even got my attention, but now it has... so censoring the name definately rose more attention than not censoring...

 

 

I find it strange too, might ask Ashal to take a look, after all we are all adults here.

 

[ajsimps]

I think when there's money in it, something good will come out eventually as it is the best motivator.

Once talented teams start coming together to create something actually worthy of 3k $ / month the garbage that's currently available will lose its appeal.

 

It's a revitalized market that is still relatively untapped.

[Tj412]

There are two H-games that run Patreons that I've actually supported: Malise and the Machine (Link) and Crisis Point: Extinction (Link). MaTM is on RPGMaker, but its battle system is completely different to most. Plus all the art assets are completely original, they're really pushing the limits of the engine. Demo links for both in links.

CPE is a side-scrolling "Metroidvania" type game that's pretty fun on its own. 

They both have public demos/releases that are very generous with content and both have extremely reasonable price-tags - if you pledge a total of $20 for each you get the full game on release, and it's $10 for each (playable) content update (MaTM) or per month with an update released every month (CPE).  

YMMV on whether the content and the games themselfs are enjoyable, but imo Patreon is a great avenue for western H-developers to get in to it, and get paid doing it.

[Guest mayaktheunholy]

Maya your comment makes no sense, but okay. We're discussing facts about what people are doing with patreon. There ARE good indie developers out there, but they're few and far between. If you treat people like cash cows and just release your game ever so slowly to keep raking in money, then you're part of the problem.

 

HOWEVER. If you are one of the developers that actually releases a game and doesn't take almost two years to release a single rpgmaker title (unacceptable and inexcusable. RPGMaker games in depth with art can be made 10x faster than that) , then you're not included in this rant.

 

This rant is about the majority of developers who eat up our money and do things like buy a car or a house (which HAS happened) or take the money and abandon your original project. People bitch about AAA game companies treating people like cash crops for content, but at least they deliver the content and don't make us shovel out 30$ a month each for it. 

 

Which is another good point, the prices for the patreon games are extremely overreaching. Your single game is not worth one person paying over 200$ for, which is what they pay in less than a year of waiting for a game. I can subscribe to a AAA title and get VASTLY superior gameplay and content for $120 in a year. Hell, black desert online is buy once and play and I got hundreds of hours racked up on that for $50.

 

 

people complaiing about the oversaturation and lack of quality in said games is enough to turn them away? im not sure if thats a good or bad thing...

 

 

Many of these devs are just one person, just starting out and developing their skillset. So yes, people crying about quality like they expect a AAA quality title from one person on their first attempt at game creation can be pretty discouraging. Major companies usually have a dozen or more people working on each aspect of their games (just look at the credits sometime) for multiple years, and they still ship with bugs. Expecting one person to magically crap out a AAA quality adult game on their first outing is more than a bit unreasonable. A lot of devs choose something like RPGmaker for their first game because it's relatively easy and saves a lot of time with pre-packaged resources. It's a first step, something to practice with till you are ready for something more ambitious. And I'm not just defending RPGmaker, I never even used it myself.

 

Not to mention assuming they are trying to scam people because they don't update as often as some would like (more like demand). Maybe they got in over their head and had to learn new skills, maybe part of the creation process is harder than they thought, maybe RL kicked them in the junk, etc. A lot of other things can come up other than "dev is just riding Patreon and being lazy".

 

[ticky09]

So two years for a single RPGmaker title is acceptable to you then? Because I've seen some pretty unique RPGmaker titles that WEREN'T adult that WERE made by one or two people that took a lot less time to create for a hell of a lot less money or FREE that have as much if not more interesting gameplay than these adult titles. I mean people were making them for youtubers to play with just one fan or a fan and their spouse. Took them about 6-8 months for a really good one that they did absolutely for free.

They shouldn't be willing to accept thousands per month if they know they can't deliver something of quality. No one's asking for AAA content. But I am asking for something better than scenes that take 20 minutes to unlock ONE with three pictures to it and nothing but "mm ahh ah ahn" for text filler.

[b00marrows]

 

So yes, people crying about quality like they expect a AAA quality title from one person on their first attempt at game creation can be pretty discouraging.

 

Dont even ATTEMPT that. AAA games are shit, they are NOTHING to compare a game to.

What "quality" is there in AAA anymore? oh all those graphics? HAHAHAHAHA! enjoy the poor perfomance and patches dripped out like IV to keep people interested in the shit. Oh, dont forget the shit ports and dulled down gamepley to please the masses. I mean look at fallout 4 and skyrim, both are hated by real fans.

 

When i look for an indie game i look for something that has soul something that stands out from the crowd. Not fancy graphics, not fancy music... i want fucking gameplay in my games.

[Guest mayaktheunholy]

So two years for a single RPGmaker title is acceptable to you then? Because I've seen some pretty unique RPGmaker titles that WEREN'T adult that WERE made by one or two people that took a lot less time to create for a hell of a lot less money or FREE that have as much if not more interesting gameplay than these adult titles. I mean people were making them for youtubers to play with just one fan or a fan and their spouse. Took them about 6-8 months for a really good one that they did absolutely for free.

They shouldn't be willing to accept thousands per month if they know they can't deliver something of quality. No one's asking for AAA content. But I am asking for something better than scenes that take 20 minutes to unlock ONE with three pictures to it and nothing but "mm ahh ah ahn" for text filler.

Sounds like you've been burned with some pretty bad games. But that is no reason to assume all of us devs are like that.

Honestly I shy away from RPGmaker H-games anyway just due to how many I've seen from DLsite that just follow the cookie cutter "hunt for still image CGs" formula. I wouldn't even consider joining a Patreon for an RPGmaker game unless the public demo was impressive.

 

And I have seen some Japanese devs take that kind of time on RPGmaker games. Another thing about Japanese H-devs, a lot of times they don't even announce a game till they have already been working on it for some undisclosed amount of time.

 

Dont even ATTEMPT that. AAA games are shit, they are NOTHING to compare a game to.

What "quality" is there in AAA anymore? oh all those graphics? HAHAHAHAHA! enjoy the poor perfomance and patches dripped out like IV to keep people interested in the shit. Oh, dont forget the shit ports and dulled down gamepley to please the masses. I mean look at fallout 4 and skyrim, both are hated by real fans.

 

When i look for an indie game i look for something that has soul something that stands out from the crowd. Not fancy graphics, not fancy music... i want fucking gameplay in my games.

 

 

That is probably a rant for another thread (or PM), but you are preaching to the choir. Generally have to agree with you there. There are a few here and there that are decent, but for the most part, yeah.

 

[Krh]

 

And to post an update about the game i'm making, I made a blog here http://www.loverslab.com/blog/501/entry-2904-dev-blog-01/ , if anyone is interested.

 

 

Definitely relevant to my interests, as the meme goes.

 

Is the overall state of adult indie games all that sad, anyway? Sure, a lot of projects wither and die before they even get out of the "a room with three goblins in it" stage, but there's a lot of promising stuff around in various stages of completion. Not even counting scammers and procrastinators.

 

Off the top of my head: Malise and the Machine, Aylia's Story, Adventures of Tara, Officer Chloe... and a bunch of projects that I don't personally find interesting, but could end up being quality games.

[Yotix]

I guess adult games need to move out of the "let's do something pornographic in a shitty engine that looks lousy and offers little creative freedom" RPGmaker niche. 

While some of the games using that have some okay ideas in them, I always stop playing them after like five minutes because, basically, I wasted enough time in better-looking games in the early 1990s, and I don't want to have to figure a way through yet another stupid labyrinth or puzzle question just to see yet another badly computer-generated porn still.

 

... though some of the text adventures around are even a lot worse: HTML choose-your-answer bullshit, in the 21st Century? "Open door, approach house, wank in front of the window, choose one" - WTF Peter fucking Jackson's interactive adventure books offered better gameplay in the 1980s. Or all the Flash Strip Poker games, I found that shit boring when I played it on my C64 at age 16 and my opinion hasn't changed much.

 

And the flash crap available on various sites? Most of them are brainless "meet and fuck" clones or horribly designed multiple choice things. QSP? Girl Life is okayish for a while, though most of the text is auto-translated gibberish and the TGF page that lists Girl Life links to a malware-infested version of the QSP player.

 

The only great "porn games" I can think of are found on this site here: Skyrim with tons of mods, Fallout New Vegas if you can get Sexout + Mods to run without fucking up your save file every two hours, Sims with Oniki Kay's KinkyMod. (One Unity game does kinda have potential, "AATOFL Abandoned something", but that's also kinda an old-fashioned multiple choice thing.)

[ticky09]

Just tried out Tale of Forgotten lives and for one guy working on it, it's amazing. Could do with spellchecks and a little more dialogue options and general control over the story for the player, but it's a great step forward toward better adult themed games. I enjoy story, I enjoy gameplay, I enjoy actually feeling something about the characters I'm playing or that are involved with my character. 

 

Awesome graphics are a plus, but not required if I can at least not get bored with the story within 10 minutes. Skyrim mods are only fun to an extent due to the fact that I feel almost nothing toward my own character or other characters in skyrim. It's just good for a 3d sex sim with fetish support.

[The Dreamer]

Over the years, I've started dozens of erotic game projects that have all died out because I haven't been satisfied with the quality of the design or the content (I'm only good at writing and my standards are insanely high), although I can easily pull off an excellent implementation. It's really difficult to even come up with a concept that would support good gameplay and good erotica at the same time. Too many sex games that have some kind of a gameplay that works just lack any excitement on the erotic side, and too many that have good quality erotica are just boring as fuck as games.

 

Currently, I'm planning to start some kind of a slave management game, since those can at least kind of work for gameplay and erotica, even if there are already dozens of those out there. I'd be a lot more excited about this if I had an artist to work with me, but that's probably difficult to pull off as well without being able to promise any kind of payment in advance. Even if I could find someone who wanted to work for free, I wouldn't be able to trust that they'd stick around until the end.

 

There's a huge risk in spending a lot of time on a project like this, because there's no kind of guarantee for any income, so these projects are done mostly for one's own enjoyment. That's probably one of the biggest reasons why there just aren't any good ones around. And then people are upset that some developers do make money on Patreon... What's up with that? It's not your money they're spending. It's pretty much the only financial motivation that indie adult game devs have at the moment.

[ticky09]

This argument was made before, Dreamer, and I have been victim of someone who procrastinated and to this day is procrastinating and making god awful donation requirements (requiring 4 months of patreon donation before giving you a release) so yes, it was my money. Two years of game development making 8k a month and while the game is pretty good, he's farming it for cash. I feel I was ripped off. And the rate of release vs. the amount of money earned per month does not add up. They demand 20$ per month to give you any form of decent access to the game and release it intentionally in very minute increments to generate more money for least amount of work put into a game, and then spend the money IRL on new houses, new cars, trips, etc. It's basically the same kind of fiasco that goes on with 90% of steam early access games.

[The Dreamer]

Just shop carefully. People are greedy as fuck.

[youngfool]

I played 'breeding season' about a year ago and was bored out of my mind after 20mins or less.

Few days ago as i was casually browser the patron lists in this post, i shocking the found the team of 'breeding season' gets a whooping $30,000 per month.

https://www.patreon.com/user?u=108351&ty=h

 

Then i thought to myself, oh wow, i must have missed something, there has to be more than what i had experienced a year back, i mean there HAS to be!

 

After investing a good 2 to 3 hours playing, i found nothing. the game has NOTHING beyond repetitive grind with low pixelated boobs and dicks. The ONLY profane feature the game is the PG13 version of pregnancy and birthing system which has no sophistication, been instantaneous.

 

Its not just the disproportion mismatch between the game quality and its funding that makes this is ridiculous, what makes me, more upset than angry, is that this team is comprised of FIVE members.

 

I totally feel the OP, this is just fking stupid.

 

Edit: Oh and the last Sovereign is a very good rpg!! very good writing.

 

https://www.patreon.com/sierralee?ty=h

[Benn82]

Can't resist to give my 2 cents.

 

S-Games (Sex) Developer type ...

1. Big Studio - Bait pervert gamers to pay their games by subscribing scam.

2. Amateur (White) - Too much ambitious, with lack of skill and manpower. Result, either stuck up of ideas, or just tired continuing their projects ... the games abandoned or continue creating but without passion.

3. Amateur (Black) - Basically same as the big studio, but use Patreon to get easy money. Tease a little bit of Sex scene to their games, add little by little without significant content, just to keep their supporter from cancel their subscription.

[shadow2k]

I feel I should step in here and just remind people that there aren't that many places in the world where experienced H-game creators can actually find work or the resources they need to pursue their dreams.  Few development companies will even touch adult themes let alone full-on sex in games, and most people in game dev go well out of their way to avoid this sort of content.

 

Those of us who make these games have to fund them one way or another - either by asking for donations, subscriptions, or just funding them ourselves.  While there certainly are scams out there that give us all a bad name, I would caution people not to jump to conclusions or generalize.  Some of us are doing as much as we can given our circumstances and game development is VERY time consuming and VERY expensive, even for a small project.  I don't think most gamers realize just how much money and time is needed just to make a small game.  You may think a developer is asking for too much, but try making an adult game yourself and you'll quickly come to realize just what a daunting task that is - especially for those of us who develop these games alone.

[Kerny]

I feel I should step in here and just remind people that there aren't that many places in the world where experienced H-game creators can actually find work or the resources they need to pursue their dreams.  Few development companies will even touch adult themes let alone full-on sex in games, and most people in game dev go well out of their way to avoid this sort of content.

 

Those of us who make these games have to fund them one way or another - either by asking for donations, subscriptions, or just funding them ourselves.  While there certainly are scams out there that give us all a bad name, I would caution people not to jump to conclusions or generalize.  Some of us are doing as much as we can given our circumstances and game development is VERY time consuming and VERY expensive, even for a small project.  I don't think most gamers realize just how much money and time is needed just to make a small game.  You may think a developer is asking for too much, but try making an adult game yourself and you'll quickly come to realize just what a daunting task that is - especially for those of us who develop these games alone.

 

As far as i experienced it , game creation is a very time consuming task.  If you think playing costs you time... hehe xD

But it has much to do with the things  things you love .I want to create games and content because i can created them the way i want it to be.

I can add my stuff , my ideas and... too much machine fetisch but that's another story.

 

Anyway. I agree that game creating IS time consuming and you need a certain amount of money for it .(Mostly buying environment 3d art on the asset store).

But there is always the question :

 

Why do you start to create a game ?

 

Currently i would answer this question with :

- I want to create the story (OR expand the story where i want it to go..system shock with monstergirls...i really need to create CS chapter 6)

- I am a naughty boy who knows that my fetisch isn't that.. popular (lack of games with my fetisch)

- I want to be one of the guys who gives something. Something People could talk about.(I love reading comments xD)

[d2unite]

^ I enjoyed your story and it has definitely potential.

I like the games that makes sense and are one same theme. Princess Trainer and Witch Trainer for example are character we can relate/know about and the story is pretty good with the dialogues being fucking perfect; I honestly can't stand these other games that are just a miss match of hentai images found on the internet - I do appreciate the work put into them but definitely not for me.

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

Scam artists and cowards who will block you the moment you begin to question them. It's like YouTube, only sadder.

[johnpage]

After reading all this it proves to me yet again that lovers lab is becoming a patreon railway, i can see my stop in the distance getting nearer...

[red phantoms]

i kinda giggle reading the topic. Ive been observing things for a while so i guess i can be as objective as possible

 

1st let me call elephant on the room. Kickstarter patreon or whatever new platform that facilitate a fancy subscription before the game is out are all susceptible to scam. Have you ever hear a tiny metal and project phoenix controversy?  yeah that is not just a mere indie dev

 

2nd About the water down quality again..... we have mighty no 9. and that is another not just a mere indie dev.

 

if those above is already happening honestly i dont find what happens to indie and personal project is surprising. Actually i saw it from long time ago when kickstarting is at its infancy. i know scam is bad thing done by the criminal but let us face it backer is the one to blame here as they let themselves fooled just like all preorder and micro transaction shenanigan heck they fuel the practice even.

 

so its a problem for all kickstrarter and patron problem not only on adult game

 

Let move on to next topic. I do have a proficiency in programing so i said not without base.

 

3. Creating new game engine is a tremendous work and not all developer is an advanced programmer who double as an erotic designer. Thus they are going for valid option. RPG maker as base engine and artificial girl honney selector other illusion game for HCG. ppl have been tweak RPG maker for everything. Pokemon format check, fire emblem format check VN format check....... man we need more eroge pokemon and fire emblem game....................... ehem back to topic it is the most friendly platform for non programmer who want to share their idea. Sadly yeah most ppl dont have enough imagination and time enough to exploit this. thus lackluster game

 

4. indie developer are often figuratively kill themselves. mostly from internal drama and for most of the time big ambition for integrated feature causing the game to fell into development hell, causing depression of the dev and bunch of bug

 

So I think its a problem of all indie dev

 

 

 

[Guest]

The thing with the Patreon model is that, despite its susceptibility to scams, it's the best we've got.

 

In order to enable people to actually put in the time and effort required to create a quality product, people need to be paid. Someone needs to invest in the production of the content. Adult content is high-risk due to the social stigma surrounding it, so you aren't going to get big, central investors. The crowdfunding model is the means currently available to us of solving that problem. 

 

Certainly there are indie developers, both in the adult realm and outside of it, who manage success without a prior investment because they have the good fortune to be able to work on their game without pay for a long period of time. (Along with exceptional perseverance - again, a blessing more than anything else...) This cannot, however, be treated as the norm. Quality content requires quality developers. There are numerous creators of various types of adult content out there who are quite talented! There is quality content out there in individual skillsets - art, writing, code - but not so much put together. You need a team. But then team dynamics become an issue, as we've seen in ... honestly, too many projects to name. It seems that a highly-functional team is about as exceptional as the fortunate indie dev. Another paradigm is needed.

 

The best thing to do, then, is to create a studio and hire people on to use their skills for a specific project, the way mainstream games are made. This avoids a huge friction-generating problem in teams, of each individual feeling like they have ownership over the project and thus encountering "differences in creative vision". But then, again, you run into the issue of investment. Who is going to fund a studio to hire a team - probably multiple teams - to produce a game over the course of multiple years, like is necessary for a high-quality experience? When it comes to adult content, it's just too risky. And crowdfunding runs into the same scammability problem.

 

I do want to say something else positive about the crowdfunding model as we use it today, though. It shows that people are willing to pay for adult content. That wasn't necessarily the case a few years ago - people are very, very used to free porn catering to their preferences whenever they want it. But a lot of us want a more interactive experience that we are willing to pay a premium for, clearly! Seeing that the market exists is important for any potential investors. I think we've done a good job of showing that interest.

 

Another issue, on the topic of paid content, is a strange phenomenon I'm still trying to understand... but basically, I think people are less likely to spend money on an experience if it has to be private. They're embarrassed by paying for porn, and I'm not entirely sure why. My guess is that you simply get less value out of an inherently solitary experience. Pornography consumed in community - whatever that means - would help circumvent this issue. Both the issues of investor attraction and consumer willingness to pay, honestly, trace back to a cultural issue. Shift the cultural taboo on sex and pornography in particular, and you have a healthy market. 

[cypress_z]

I know it's easy to look around and say that the state of things right now are the worst because everyone is the worst (though I'm not saying anyone here is saying that), just remember that there was no industry at all just a few years back. Not every project should be for money, but to put out lots of games or build things up you need it. So the people working right now are mostly pioneers building things up. Things go slowly and might seem to be far from what we'd hope, but reality will catch up. Things change and there's now more people trying than ever. Even if the 90% rule always held true, the good will add up a lot over time and the crap discarded. 

 

It'll take time but I think things are on the right path to a better scene.