[mod] [CK2] Dark World: Reborn - Updated 01MAY2024

[dewguru]

7 hours ago, ngppgn said:

Nice! I'd love to see what "policies" and "status" you can come up with for her. Does this mean that the succubus spells will use lilith's offmap currency now instead of piety?

 

As for the governor title. Are you giving it the enatic succession (and the highest ststus of women for good measure)? What succession law? Some, like patrician elective and turkish succession have the male-only notion hardcoded into them so you should probably avoid those if you aren't already.

I don't see where there are any options for dictating succession type for the governor title. Only for the ruler section does there appear to be a mechanism for forcing it to be a woman.

 

I've no plans on changing succubus spells to using the offmap currency at this time.

 

So far, it's a cool looking concept, yet it's extremely limited as well. I'm already nearing my frustration point in wrestling with it.

[dewguru]

5 hours ago, veedanya said:

Minor bugs:

 

• Portraits: that white line between 314 and 315 shows up in game. I'm not sure if the portrait file was shifted a pixel, or the jade dragon patch did something.
• The Bordello improvement quest should have an alternate trigger/reward that just gives a lump sum of gold or something. As someone who tried to maximize profit income in my holdings, I apparently never held a lower level bordello for long enough to trigger it? So maybe it also needs to trigger for highest-tier bordellos and just give a gold reward, so players won't miss content
• The code you duplicated from the Lucifer corruption event seems to contradict the theme of the Lilith society. e.g., Lilith powers increase beauty and heal mutations, but the corruption events decrease beauty and add mutations.
• The last point could cause an infinite loop bug with AI characters: corruption adds mutations, AI use powers to remove mutations, which increases corruption, which increases mutations, ad infinitum. The AI is VERY bad at managing visibility, and will often spam powers until they get themselves burned as heretics. So this could possibly cause a lot of liliths to get themselves killed.

 

P.S., don't forget about that slave selling patch I sent you a few days ago. It's been debugged and working for a few days now, in both 2.7 and 2.8 versions of CK2. Just overwrite the previous section, but don't to remove those two brackets I mentioned in the message.

Just so you're aware, I'm not really concerned or interested in looking into anything you raised there. I've other things I'm working on at the moment.

[ngppgn]

50 minutes ago, dewguru said:

I don't see where there are any options for dictating succession type for the governor title. Only for the ruler section does there appear to be a mechanism for forcing it to be a woman.

 

I've no plans on changing succubus spells to using the offmap currency at this time.

 

So far, it's a cool looking concept, yet it's extremely limited as well. I'm already nearing my frustration point in wrestling with it.

The governor title behaves like any title regarding succession laws: if it has none defined in history, one that satisfies the allow and potential is picked when the campaign starts. Then you can change it by event (you will want to make sure the ai doesn't change it while you're not looking. Probably an on_death event should do that).

 

I've meddled with offmaps my fair share in trying to test their limits, so feel free to ask me here or via PM if you need any help or advince in implementing them.

[veedanya]

On 12/24/2017 at 12:35 AM, dewguru said:

Advice heard on the traits part, but at this time it's not being taken. Mainly because I don't see it as a problem, largely because I've not experienced it.

The tentacle effect spreads far more rapidly than the others. I'm not sure if it's a triggered event, a spell, or if tentacles spread like an STD, but I've had a count-level court (~20 people) go from zero tentacle-kin to a majority tentacle-kin in under ten years. It's the only "racial" trait that can spread to existing characters rather than through inheritance (except succubus, but that has a high cost to do so, and thus is greatly restricted in its rate of spread.)

 

The tentacle-kin trait and status behaves like an actual disease: it spreads between characters, grows at an exponential rate, and causes harm to its victims (tentacle trait + tentacle pregnancy modifier).

 

But unlike a disease you can't take special measures against it. There's no treatment or prevention by spell or decision. There's no alert when a tentacle-kin appears in your court so it can spread to a large chunk of your court without you noticing. You can't control the spread via imprison and execute (at least, not any more than you can anything else, since you suffer full tyranny penalties from doing so). And kicking them out of your court just spreads it further like a plaguecarrier would an actual disease.

 

8 hours ago, dewguru said:

Just so you're aware, I'm not really concerned or interested in looking into anything you raised there. I've other things I'm working on at the moment.

Is that concerning just bug/issue reports, or did you want me to stop sending any further code updates/patches until your current project is done?

[jjnoc5]

Anyone know what sub mods are still compatible with JD/2.8?

[Guest]

So I made a hacky submod, mainly for my own use, to prevent Jus Primae Noctae pregnancies from triggering the normal bastardy events.  I was thinking of putting it up in case someone wanted to use it* - but it has a modified version of DWCourtandCommerce.txt of one of the prima noctae events in it.  Is that ok?  (the mod would requires DWR to function)

 

*or look at it, or modify it, or reuse some part of it

**or complain how inefficiently the triggers were coded, etc

*** Merry Happy Holichristukka

 

(edit, refined the mod a little... also it doesn't work!  I just got lucky in my initial tests)

[ngppgn]

8 hours ago, Spoink said:

So I made a hacky submod, mainly for my own use, to prevent Jus Primae Noctae pregnancies from triggering the normal bastardy events.  I was thinking of putting it up in case someone wanted to use it* - but it has a modified version of DWCourtandCommerce.txt of one of the prima noctae events in it.  Is that ok?  (the mod would requires DWR to function)

 

*or look at it, or modify it, or reuse some part of it

**or complain how inefficiently the triggers were coded, etc

*** Merry Happy Holichristukka

 

(edit, refined the mod a little... also it doesn't work!  I just got lucky in my initial tests)

You generally can override events in one file from another file, you need to copy and edit the original file in your submod -from your text it's unclear wether you did the former or the later so the issue may be there.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ngppgn said:

You generally can override events in one file from another file, you need to copy and edit the original file in your submod -from your text it's unclear wether you did the former or the later so the issue may be there.

Originally I copied the whole file, as my wiki fu skills improved I confirmed that I didn't need to do that.

 

The mod wasn't working because I wasn't using the character flags correctly.  I *think* I have it working now.  At least in my testing I managed to impregnate dozens of women without getting any notices about suspicion.

 

At this point I've corrected the mod to the point that it actually doesn't need any of Dew's code in it except to fix the triggers on one of the JPN events.  I found out you can check a flag based on how long ago it was set, so I just used the flag he already sets during JPN event. (*it occurs to me I need to confirm that it doesn't give permanent protection from cuckoo detection.)

 

Oh, it turns out fucking basically every lady in your realm is a great way to get the pox.  Who knew?

[dewguru]

21 hours ago, veedanya said:

The tentacle effect spreads far more rapidly than the others. I'm not sure if it's a triggered event, a spell, or if tentacles spread like an STD, but I've had a count-level court (~20 people) go from zero tentacle-kin to a majority tentacle-kin in under ten years. It's the only "racial" trait that can spread to existing characters rather than through inheritance (except succubus, but that has a high cost to do so, and thus is greatly restricted in its rate of spread.)

 

The tentacle-kin trait and status behaves like an actual disease: it spreads between characters, grows at an exponential rate, and causes harm to its victims (tentacle trait + tentacle pregnancy modifier).

 

But unlike a disease you can't take special measures against it. There's no treatment or prevention by spell or decision. There's no alert when a tentacle-kin appears in your court so it can spread to a large chunk of your court without you noticing. You can't control the spread via imprison and execute (at least, not any more than you can anything else, since you suffer full tyranny penalties from doing so). And kicking them out of your court just spreads it further like a plaguecarrier would an actual disease.

 

Is that concerning just bug/issue reports, or did you want me to stop sending any further code updates/patches until your current project is done?

I always play with the Tentacle-kin stuff activated, but I've never encountered what you've mentioned. Do you use any sub-mods? I don't use anything other than my mod in most play sessions (largely because most of my play sessions are also test sessions).

 

Regarding sending things to me, I don't mind, but I just wanted to make certain it was clear that what some folks see as bugs, I might not, and just because someone posts something - doesn't mean I'm acting on it - since I struggle enough with it is as remaining focused in coding these days. Usually if it's something I do see as an issue that needs to be addressed, I'll respond accordingly that it'd be in the next update or whatever. Everything you posted to me isn't relevant enough to touch during the next wrap-up phase of the next update.

 

So it's just me trying to be open with communication on expectations. I know it was a short response, but folks share things like that a lot, and getting verbose about whether I'll include something or not isn't something I care to do. I'm just explaining it now, to clear-up my intention. I appreciate feedback on parts, but I don't act upon all feedback given.

[dewguru]

11 hours ago, Spoink said:

So I made a hacky submod, mainly for my own use, to prevent Jus Primae Noctae pregnancies from triggering the normal bastardy events.  I was thinking of putting it up in case someone wanted to use it* - but it has a modified version of DWCourtandCommerce.txt of one of the prima noctae events in it.  Is that ok?  (the mod would requires DWR to function)

 

*or look at it, or modify it, or reuse some part of it

**or complain how inefficiently the triggers were coded, etc

*** Merry Happy Holichristukka

 

(edit, refined the mod a little... also it doesn't work!  I just got lucky in my initial tests)

I added a section to the FAQ a while back, in an attempt to answer the question about if it's alright for someone to post a related mod. It's the second thing.

 

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/57549-ck2-dark-world-reborn/?do=findComment&comment=1457168

[veedanya]

2 hours ago, dewguru said:

I always play with the Tentacle-kin stuff activated, but I've never encountered what you've mentioned. Do you use any sub-mods? I don't use anything other than my mod in most play sessions (largely because most of my play sessions are also test sessions).

 

Regarding sending things to me, I don't mind, but I just wanted to make certain it was clear that what some folks see as bugs, I might not, and just because someone posts something - doesn't mean I'm acting on it - since I struggle enough with it is as remaining focused in coding these days. Usually if it's something I do see as an issue that needs to be addressed, I'll respond accordingly that it'd be in the next update or whatever. Everything you posted to me isn't relevant enough to touch during the next wrap-up phase of the next update.

 

So it's just me trying to be open with communication on expectations. I know it was a short response, but folks share things like that a lot, and getting verbose about whether I'll include something or not isn't something I care to do. I'm just explaining it now, to clear-up my intention. I appreciate feedback on parts, but I don't act upon all feedback given.

Ah, you were correct. It is a submod after all. After running more playthroughs, it turns out the catalyst for the tentacle explosion was the DWToska's "summon tentacle beast" spell. That not only converts the character to a tentaclekin, but forces a pregnancy, increasing the tentacle pop even further. I've disabled that for now.

 

As for what you said concerning bugs, you do have a good point. Many of the things I suggested were indeed more balancing changes rather than actual bugs, so I may have been overly enthusiastic in classifying what was really considered a bug. I'll keep that in mind.

[veedanya]

So looking at the game code, it looks like all immortal NPCs start basically revoking their immortality at 80 years. Which means immortality is only a... +20-30 years on the average lifespan? 

 

Would you be okay if I wrote some nuance for lifespans? Like differences between lifespan for different races. And creating a separate trait for longevity (immunity to aging) for the lilith spell, while reserving the actual immortality trait (that also grants +10 health) for only those who complete the long, rare MnM quest chain.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems a bit misleading that getting a mere 20 year life extension is called immortality in DWR.

[dewguru]

6 hours ago, veedanya said:

So looking at the game code, it looks like all immortal NPCs start basically revoking their immortality at 80 years. Which means immortality is only a... +20-30 years on the average lifespan? 

 

Would you be okay if I wrote some nuance for lifespans? Like differences between lifespan for different races. And creating a separate trait for longevity (immunity to aging) for the lilith spell, while reserving the actual immortality trait (that also grants +10 health) for only those who complete the long, rare MnM quest chain.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems a bit misleading that getting a mere 20 year life extension is called immortality in DWR.

You obviously wait a lot longer than I do when I play. Most immortality is starting in the 20-30 year old range when I play.

 

And that's just when the checks begin, and when I add the new ai check value that limits it to checking once a year instead of once a month, then it'll be even less noticeable.

[dewguru]

Looking at doing a small release either this weekend or the next. Content wise right now it's looking like this:

 

• adds an event to the Chosen of Lilith society
• an offmap empire for Lilith - that will be set-up to only be visible to those who are one of her children (a succubus or incubus), or a member of the Chosen of Lilith society. It's interactions are going to be limited, but you'll have the opportunity to obtain favor and what not. Also - I don't really know why, but once you qualify to see the offmap tab, it takes a month in game time to pass before it actually appears. Not game breaking, but annoying as you wait and hope it actually shows up.
• A few existing images that were in the short format have been updated to use the larger view.
• Shantae's random visit fix that was covered a few pages back.

Not certain much more will be added as I'm poking at the offmap addition, although I'd like to get in another power related item for the Chosen of Lilith and the Wizards College.

[ReMeDy]

I have some questions regarding offmap_powers for modding because I don't trust Paradox worth a damn to try it myself:

1.) Can the emperor (or whoever is in place of the emperor) be in a society, even though he's an offmap character?
2.) Does the default offmap Chinese empire have to be replaced when you add in your own empire, or can more than offmap power coexist at the same time? Basically, would creating a second button next to the Chinese button to view a different offmap power be feasible?

[Reaper Frank]

2 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

I have some questions regarding offmap_powers for modding because I don't trust Paradox worth a damn to try it myself:

1.) Can the emperor (or whoever is in place of the emperor) be in a society, even though he's an offmap character?
2.) Does the default offmap Chinese empire have to be replaced when you add in your own empire, or can more than offmap power coexist at the same time? Basically, would creating a second button next to the Chinese button to view a different offmap power be feasible?

From what ive seen the "Character" is more less a non entity that isn't directly intractable, all interaction with Chinese emperor and his Family are Via those menus in the Tab, also when you get direct messages it form the Governor of the "Western Protectorate". Also when you send characters to china they are more or less dead. as they are no longer intractable.  For your Second point i believe what i read in the patch notes and Dev blogs was that you could add more of them and have  another tab under or replacing the Chinese emperor's one.

[ngppgn]

3 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

I have some questions regarding offmap_powers for modding because I don't trust Paradox worth a damn to try it myself:

1.) Can the emperor (or whoever is in place of the emperor) be in a society, even though he's an offmap character?
2.) Does the default offmap Chinese empire have to be replaced when you add in your own empire, or can more than offmap power coexist at the same time? Basically, would creating a second button next to the Chinese button to view a different offmap power be feasible?

Hey, the documentation tbey are adding since 2.7 for new features is pretty decent.

 

You can add as mamy offmap powers as you want.

 

As for the other question: dunno, maybe, try a quick script to see if you can add the emperor of china to the satanists or something. Note though that offmpa powers cannot take decisions nor receive normal events, they have their own pulses, aren't caught by any_* scopes, etc.

 

So, maybe have the offmap not be in the decision after all but make it send the mission cosmetically.

[ngppgn]

4 hours ago, dewguru said:

Looking at doing a small release either this weekend or the next. Content wise right now it's looking like this:

 

• adds an event to the Chosen of Lilith society
• an offmap empire for Lilith - that will be set-up to only be visible to those who are one of her children (a succubus or incubus), or a member of the Chosen of Lilith society. It's interactions are going to be limited, but you'll have the opportunity to obtain favor and what not. Also - I don't really know why, but once you qualify to see the offmap tab, it takes a month in game time to pass before it actually appears. Not game breaking, but annoying as you wait and hope it actually shows up.
• A few existing images that were in the short format have been updated to use the larger view.
• Shantae's random visit fix that was covered a few pages back.

Not certain much more will be added as I'm poking at the offmap addition, although I'd like to get in another power related item for the Chosen of Lilith and the Wizards College.

It is an optimisation thing that the offmap visibility is only evaluated by the game once a month.

 

Will we be able to become the lilith's "governor" somehow?

[dewguru]

10 hours ago, ngppgn said:

It is an optimisation thing that the offmap visibility is only evaluated by the game once a month.

 

Will we be able to become the lilith's "governor" somehow?

At this point it is not my intention to do so.

 

I'm viewing the offmap in this case as more about it being a corner of hell, and I've been thinking about some others being potential pocket dimension type additions (land of the fae for example).

 

I've just begun to poke at the hornet's nest though, so this of course is subject to change as I come to either like or hate it.

[veedanya]

22 hours ago, dewguru said:

You obviously wait a lot longer than I do when I play. Most immortality is starting in the 20-30 year old range when I play.

 

And that's just when the checks begin, and when I add the new ai check value that limits it to checking once a year instead of once a month, then it'll be even less noticeable.

 

I feel the Lilith power to grant immortality is a quite misleading. The characters are not anywhere near immortal; they aren't immortal against time (statistically, few will live past their 80s), nor assassination. They only get protection against disease from the +10 health, and maybe 20-30 years longer average lifespan. That's about as immortal as someone with modern medicine, which would similarly live a few decades longer and have diseases treated much better than someone in medieval times. 

 

So here's a proposed change for immortality. Lilith-related powers no longer grant immortality, but instead grant "Longevity" which has the following effects:

•  Immunity to aging like "Immortality" does. The +10 health bonus is reduced to +3 health
• -10 general opinion. Helps offset the higher average attributes of immortals, since longer lifespans means they complete more focus quests and events that raise stats
• -10 liege opinion, -20 vassal opinion. Helps to discourage players from stacking their vassal ranks with immortals possessing awesome stats, or granting immortality to everyone willy-nilly. Instead they'll be more likely to grant it to only those their character really trusts.
• -2 piety per month, -20 church opinion. Immortal temple-holders inevitably become Pope, since being older and having more total piety increase your score in elections)
• -50% fertility. Immortals stay their age, so have a fertile period that's unlimited. And -70% seems like a lot, but it's possible to get +100% or more just from vanilla focus events, artifacts, and traits. Never-mind the additional fertility from Dark World traits, and submods' traits.
• +50% plot defense. In my tests, a somewhere between a third to half of teenage immortal courtiers never make it to what is considered human old age (~80 years). And that's just courtiers -- the risk increases considerably when they actually hold titles. Immortal dukes suffered a premature death rate of up to 50%. I imagine it's even higher for kings and emperors.
• There will be a running script to cap the maximum age based on the particular species, if applicable. But I'll push it past the 60-80 age range currently in game, since I think that's unrealistically short for immortals to get bored of life.

I'm also considering a set of character attributes that grant bonuses to immortals at certain year marks (every 25 years? 50 years?). This will help encourage players to help nurture their immortals as a precious resource in the long term, instead of replacing immortals so casually (e.g., when they get one or two bad traits, or when someone with slightly higher stats comes along). This will look something like

• Reducing fertility further
• Increasing plot defense further
• Increasing health bonus further
• Maybe minor attribute increases.

Immortality proper will be much harder to obtain, probably only through the default M&M event chain, reaching a certain age with "longevity", or for certain VIP characters (like the Ancient Vampire and Ancient Werewolf kings from NoxBestias). It would probably have effects along the lines of:

• Same piety penalty
• Weaker opinion penalties
• Restore the 10 health bonus
• +100% plot defense 

 

[JesusKreist]

You are trying to transform a boon into a penalty.

The drawbacks are hefty for a mere 3 health, added plot defense and a slightly lesser malus to fertility.

- 30 opinion for vassals and - 30 for church does mean the longliving child of lilith will be facing rebellions and excommunications at a much higher probability.

 

The immortality as it is now is not perfect and is in need of a little tweaking. But your proposed changes are way too much.

[ngppgn]

5 hours ago, veedanya said:

 

I feel the Lilith power to grant immortality is a quite misleading. The characters are not anywhere near immortal; they aren't immortal against time (statistically, few will live past their 80s), nor assassination. They only get protection against disease from the +10 health, and maybe 20-30 years longer average lifespan. That's about as immortal as someone with modern medicine, which would similarly live a few decades longer and have diseases treated much better than someone in medieval times. 

 

So here's a proposed change for immortality. Lilith-related powers no longer grant immortality, but instead grant "Longevity" which has the following effects:

•  Immunity to aging like "Immortality" does. The +10 health bonus is reduced to +3 health
• -10 general opinion. Helps offset the higher average attributes of immortals, since longer lifespans means they complete more focus quests and events that raise stats
• -10 liege opinion, -20 vassal opinion. Helps to discourage players from stacking their vassal ranks with immortals possessing awesome stats, or granting immortality to everyone willy-nilly. Instead they'll be more likely to grant it to only those their character really trusts.
• -2 piety per month, -20 church opinion. Immortal temple-holders inevitably become Pope, since being older and having more total piety increase your score in elections)
• -50% fertility. Immortals stay their age, so have a fertile period that's unlimited. And -70% seems like a lot, but it's possible to get +100% or more just from vanilla focus events, artifacts, and traits. Never-mind the additional fertility from Dark World traits, and submods' traits.
• +50% plot defense. In my tests, a somewhere between a third to half of teenage immortal courtiers never make it to what is considered human old age (~80 years). And that's just courtiers -- the risk increases considerably when they actually hold titles. Immortal dukes suffered a premature death rate of up to 50%. I imagine it's even higher for kings and emperors.
• There will be a running script to cap the maximum age based on the particular species, if applicable. But I'll push it past the 60-80 age range currently in game, since I think that's unrealistically short for immortals to get bored of life.

I'm also considering a set of character attributes that grant bonuses to immortals at certain year marks (every 25 years? 50 years?). This will help encourage players to help nurture their immortals as a precious resource in the long term, instead of replacing immortals so casually (e.g., when they get one or two bad traits, or when someone with slightly higher stats comes along). This will look something like

• Reducing fertility further
• Increasing plot defense further
• Increasing health bonus further
• Maybe minor attribute increases.

Immortality proper will be much harder to obtain, probably only through the default M&M event chain, reaching a certain age with "longevity", or for certain VIP characters (like the Ancient Vampire and Ancient Werewolf kings from NoxBestias). It would probably have effects along the lines of:

• Same piety penalty
• Weaker opinion penalties
• Restore the 10 health bonus
• +100% plot defense 

 

Traits with immortal = yes prevents from dieing from natural causes including illnesses. The +10 health is there just to resuce the chances of getting illness traits that will do nothing anyway.

 

If the problem is that npcs are taking a decision to effectively suicide, then the required tweak is reduce/remove the xhance of taking said decision, not rebalancing the whole system around it (IMHO anyway).

 

I think there are other ways to offset the accumulation of good modifiers, e.g. a low mtth event to alter the personality of an immortal (changing patient for wroth, removing ambitious, adding paranoid, etc) to account for how the pass of time make them disconnect from the life goals and their aurrounding.

 

It'd be interesting if you were somehow limited in the number of immortals you could create e.g. by it giving you a permanent power (currently, piety) drain. That way you would need ti think twice before immortalising someone without making immortality itself into a penalty.

[dewguru]

11 hours ago, veedanya said:

 

I feel the Lilith power to grant immortality is a quite misleading. The characters are not anywhere near immortal; they aren't immortal against time (statistically, few will live past their 80s), nor assassination. They only get protection against disease from the +10 health, and maybe 20-30 years longer average lifespan. That's about as immortal as someone with modern medicine, which would similarly live a few decades longer and have diseases treated much better than someone in medieval times. 

 

So here's a proposed change for immortality. Lilith-related powers no longer grant immortality, but instead grant "Longevity" which has the following effects:

<Snip>

 

 

Sorry - not interested.

[veedanya]

11 hours ago, JesusKreist said:

You are trying to transform a boon into a penalty.

The drawbacks are hefty for a mere 3 health, added plot defense and a slightly lesser malus to fertility.

- 30 opinion for vassals and - 30 for church does mean the longliving child of lilith will be facing rebellions and excommunications at a much higher probability.

 

The immortality as it is now is not perfect and is in need of a little tweaking. But your proposed changes are way too much.

 

Lilith can grant immortality for 250 piety, meaning it can pretty much be spammed to the whole court (especially with to harvest piety en masse via sex or sacrifices). So it's high weakness should reflect this, imo. And the intention is to make longevity weak and first, and then reduce its penalties over time -- this will make immortality more a long-term investment project and not just an instant +10 health buff.

 

10 hours ago, ngppgn said:

Traits with immortal = yes prevents from dieing from natural causes including illnesses. The +10 health is there just to resuce the chances of getting illness traits that will do nothing anyway.

 

If the problem is that npcs are taking a decision to effectively suicide, then the required tweak is reduce/remove the xhance of taking said decision, not rebalancing the whole system around it (IMHO anyway).

 

I think there are other ways to offset the accumulation of good modifiers, e.g. a low mtth event to alter the personality of an immortal (changing patient for wroth, removing ambitious, adding paranoid, etc) to account for how the pass of time make them disconnect from the life goals and their aurrounding.

 

It'd be interesting if you were somehow limited in the number of immortals you could create e.g. by it giving you a permanent power (currently, piety) drain. That way you would need ti think twice before immortalising someone without making immortality itself into a penalty.

Actually, the way game scripts work, diseases can be forced onto those with immunity character flags to them via event or decision (e.g., dark touch that satanists can use, or the corporeal corruption for lilith folks). Immunity only protects against naturally-occurring diseases using the Reaper's Due symptoms system or plague spread system. During my tests with immortality I found many immortals reduced to 0.1 base health because they kept getting spammed with the same disease over and over by spell-casting enemies.

 

As for the suicide thing, in my opinion it's far too aggressive. I think right now he has it set so it's 1% per year chance over 60 years old, and 5% chance per year for each year over 80 years old. But factoring in disease and assassination, the overwhelming majority don't even live to see 80, so the very few that make it that long shouldn't really be offing themselves so easily.

 

4 hours ago, dewguru said:

Sorry - not interested.

Could you perhaps be more specific about what you don't like? It'd help to know what aspects you do or don't like, so I won't waste your time by offering suggestions you won't even look at, versus those you might think would be usable with better balancing.

 

And I think immortality really does need a re-balancing, even if its not extreme as what I proposed. Between the ability to create piety from lovers embrace, and create piety from sacrificing prisoners, you can make your entire court immortal without any real cost to yourself (since piety is otherwise largely unused by feudal rulers). And it also renders the major M&M event chains useless is immortality is so easy to get and does not really last that long for other characters, which is why I recommended splitting "true" immortality and the lilith spell effect into different traits.

[ngppgn]

1 hour ago, veedanya said:

 

Lilith can grant immortality for 250 piety, meaning it can pretty much be spammed to the whole court (especially with to harvest piety en masse via sex or sacrifices). So it's high weakness should reflect this, imo. And the intention is to make longevity weak and first, and then reduce its penalties over time -- this will make immortality more a long-term investment project and not just an instant +10 health buff.

 

Actually, the way game scripts work, diseases can be forced onto those with immunity character flags to them via event or decision (e.g., dark touch that satanists can use, or the corporeal corruption for lilith folks). Immunity only protects against naturally-occurring diseases using the Reaper's Due symptoms system or plague spread system. During my tests with immortality I found many immortals reduced to 0.1 base health because they kept getting spammed with the same disease over and over by spell-casting enemies.

 

As for the suicide thing, in my opinion it's far too aggressive. I think right now he has it set so it's 1% per year chance over 60 years old, and 5% chance per year for each year over 80 years old. But factoring in disease and assassination, the overwhelming majority don't even live to see 80, so the very few that make it that long shouldn't really be offing themselves so easily.

My point was that you can't die from an illness if you are immortal, even though you can get an event. IIRC there's also a low mtth event that removes illnesses off immortal characters little after they gain them. Basically, immortal can only be killed by evemts (this include plot events and battle events of course).

 

So the only thing you would get from reducing the health buff is gettingthe illness traits more often event though they would be removed on their own over time, so basically it would just be a nuisance.

 

In other words, if you see an immortal character dieing from natural causes or illness, that's a bug.

 

Regarding the "renounce immortality" or whatever it's called decisions, imho it should be fleshed it out somehow. My proposal would be that itis not something a character can do oneself but need to ask his "donor" (the succubus who made him/her immortal) to lift. The succubus would then have a choice, nd denying it would lead to the petitioner getting depressed, angry, or lossibly becoming a rival. You then would want to use carousing to soothe thing with hin/her. 

 

Another option would be that you need to renew the spell or it'll wear off (in prsctical terms, an event that repeats each n decades telling you to invest more piety or else the immortality will be removed from the subject.