Are high heels, lingerie, and BDSM gear "lore friendly"?

[xTrogdorx]

I try to keep my Skyrim (mostly) lore friendly. And so when it comes to armor and clothing mods, I'm wary of things that are too elaborate, or made from materials that the people of Tamriel wouldn't have access to, armor that is too revealing, and so on. I'm also wary of taking anything from ESO as canonical.

 

However, I haven't played any TES games before Skyrim, and so I'm only vaguely knowledgeable about the lore of the previous games. Are there any lore nerds out there who can point me to established canon, either art assets, or having been mentioned in books or quests.. anything that would suggest high heels, lingerie, or BDSM gear are something the people of Tamriel have made, or are capable of making? (For example, obviously wood and leather are common materials, so heels and BDSM gear would be less of a question of  'could they?' and more 'would they?')

 

And specific to lingerie, do they even have the tools necessary to make intricate/delicate fabrics?

[Anatriax]

I try to keep my Skyrim (mostly) lore friendly. And so when it comes to armor and clothing mods, I'm wary of things that are too elaborate, or made from materials that the people of Tamriel wouldn't have access to, armor that is too revealing, and so on. I'm also wary of taking anything from ESO as canonical.

 

However, I haven't played any TES games before Skyrim, and so I'm only vaguely knowledgeable about the lore of the previous games. Are there any lore nerds out there who can point me to established canon, either art assets, or having been mentioned in books or quests.. anything that would suggest high heels, lingerie, or BDSM gear are something the people of Tamriel have made, or are capable of making? (For example, obviously wood and leather are common materials, so heels and BDSM gear would be less of a question of  'could they?' and more 'would they?')

 

And specific to lingerie, do they even have the tools necessary to make intricate/delicate fabrics?

 

Well to answer one question: 

 

Making intricate fabircs (such as lace) is a matter of patience and effort. A lot of high quality lace is hand made with cotton threads. So yes, lace is possible, and quite probable.

[Coopervane]

Most of it? Probably not.. but why let that spoil the fun

[Jexsam]

Tricky.

 

I can't think of anything from lore that would support the inclusion of lingerie or high heels. BDSM gear is trickier. I doubt they'd have much in the way of specifically produced BDSM gear like those wooden horses or chains set up like sex swings. But so much bondage can be accomplished with simple creativity that it's impossible to say stocks or chains and manacles couldn't be applied in such a way.

 

I doubt they'd have to means to make such sheer and delicate materials for lingerie, but that doesn't necessarily rule out skimpy underthings made of more substantial materials.

[GSBmodders]

is it lore friendly? If you look back on our own history, which the elder scrolls mimics in it's races such as nords, bretons and imperials. I would say that these things are likely. We know that torture devices exist, we know that some men and women in the elder scrolls are vain. while many of its men and some women are prone to cruelty So BDSM imo is a given. As for lingerie, women have been devising ways of making themselves more attractive and tempting to men long before the birth of christ and in the elder scrolls jewelry exists, fine clothes exist and what are these if not ways to make oneself more appealing. So yeah I'm going to say that lingerie is a given too. We also know that slavery once existed inside the empire and that some nobles regardless of it having been outlawed still keep slaves So I'll even add that sex slaves are a probability

 

 

Edit

 

Tricky.

 BDSM gear is trickier. I doubt they'd have much in the way of specifically produced BDSM gear like those wooden horses or chains set up like sex swings. But so much bondage can be accomplished with simple creativity that it's impossible to say stocks or chains and manacles couldn't be applied in such a way.

I doubt they'd have to means to make such sheer and delicate materials for lingerie, but that doesn't necessarily rule out skimpy underthings made of more substantial materials.

 

those wooden horses were developed not as bdsm gear but as a means of torture much like a rack which we see they have plenty of in tes so why the hell would for any reason would they lack the means to fucking make something so retardedly simple?

 

as for sheer and delicate materials these are people that for magic is no big deal we know that they use spider silk. and we also know that they have trade agreements, so either producing or trading for these things would be of no real consequence

 

[Jexsam]

as for sheer and delicate materials these are people that for magic is no big deal we know that they use spider silk. and we also know that they have trade agreements, so either producing or trading for these things would be of no real consequence

I feel like just saying "a wizard did it" is a cheap cop-out more than an actual explanation or rationalization. It relieves you of actually having to think of how or why the thing in question came to be. Not that it isn't a perfectly valid solution to the fabric problem, just... it's the easy way out. Makes it really easy to claim "magic!" to justify any stupid bullshit people want.

[Serithi]

Wall of text inbound.

 

 

High heels as we know them today are a little more recent, but the basic design has been around for millennia, going back to horse-rider shoes shaped that way to be more comfortable in the stirrups (cowboy boots are a more recent example of that). And similar styles were worn basically to keep your feet off the group because shit (literally) was strewn everywhere, didn't wanna be walking in that. Having said that, TES is a fantasy setting (with a distinct lack of shit on the ground :v, which also ties into a later point i'll make about high heels not being portrayed much) known for taking stuff from all over history including modern times (vernacular and terminology, various ideals and concepts in general people didn't really hold in medieval times, etc.), and indeed there is precedent for them in TES.

 

A pic of some TES2 NPC's. Bottom row, 3rd from the left, woman in red and black.

 

 

Straight up high heels, those. I've actually been wondering about those and lingerie in lore recently and been scouring various pics, both old and new, to determine if they're lore-friendly. As far as i can tell, high heels exist but are kinda rare, perhaps it's a nobility thing, or perhaps Bethesda just doesn't show them a whole lot and prefers good ol' boots for the most part. I can certainly relate to the boots master race :v.

 

 

Lingerie is entirely within the realm of possibility, all things considered. There's exotic skimpy fantasy outfits ahoy in the games (even in ESO, which definitely reaffirms the legitimacy of these styles since it's the most recent), weaving silk is already possible (You know the Mithril armor from TES4? That's Elder Moth silk. Yeah), and quite frankly it doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together and figure some lacey undergarments would go down well considering how skimpy some undergarments (and even full outfits) have been shown to be in the games. Corsets are around, obviously, and historically corsets were "the" thing people went for over underwear, but i'm pretty certain things work a little different in TES's history , we've got corsets and skimpy clothing existing side by side.

 

Not to mention, considering a full 3 TES games (1, 2, Battlespire) had full-on nudity (no genitals, but quite a few exposed breasts and sexy clothing to go with it), and no-one really gives a damn about you walking around nude in any of the games other than the occasional berating or joking comment - more importantly, the guards don't do anything, which is my main point -, i think TES3 onwards being more "prudish" in that sense was just because of the console crowd, since TES3 was the first TES game to have a console release, so they chose to de-boobify a bit* to appeal to a more family-friendly audience. Because nothing says family-friendly like LITERALLY ALL THE FUCKED-UP STUFF IN THE 36 SERMONS OF VIVEC . But oh well. Considering the success of The Witcher, i'm pretty sure it's a seriously flawed reasoning anyway, especially since TES can pretty much sell on its name alone at this point and the "controversy" of bringing back nudity would actually sell more units.

 

Reeling this back in, while lingerie is perhaps not portrayed a whole lot (if at all) in the games, i'm pretty sure it's one of those "there's not a chance in hell it's not a thing at this point" subjects, perhaps not so much having entire stores dedicated to making it but more tracking down someone who does that kinda work. Not quite commonplace per se, but existent at least. Or so i'd assume, all things considered.

 

 

BDSM, that's been answered in Mogie56's post.

 

 

*And i would like to point out, Suran's House of Earthly Delights literally has 3 almost-naked women dancing on a stage. I'd imagine that if Bethesda (or Zenimax or whoever it was that decided the game needed to have underwear instead of nudity) hadn't decided to go down that underwear route, those dancers would be straight up nude up there. TES2 had fully-nude women in the temples (not just Dibella's, all the temples could have them), so a quasi-seedy bar sure as hell aint gonna have a problem having them .

 

 

EDIT: Okay, i'm going through Daggerfall's sprites myself. Can't be bothered screenshotting, but there are indeed a few more high heels, and it's not just nobility wearing them. So it might be more "Bethesda doesn't show them much" than them actually being that rare.

 

 

EDIT: Holy shit, i was right about the de-boobifying thing. Here's a couple development shots of TES3, notice the woman in the background for both (same woman looks like, though she's missing pants in the first. Considering the armor, might be the same two NPC's in both shots). They were gonna have nudity in it at first, only later taking it out. There is a point to be made that Morrowind was a saving grace since they were kinda in a bad place after Battlespire and Redguard didn't sell well, so they had to play it a little safer for this, but still.

 

[GSBmodders]

 

as for sheer and delicate materials these are people that for magic is no big deal we know that they use spider silk. and we also know that they have trade agreements, so either producing or trading for these things would be of no real consequence

I feel like just saying "a wizard did it" is a cheap cop-out more than an actual explanation or rationalization. It relieves you of actually having to think of how or why the thing in question came to be. Not that it isn't a perfectly valid solution to the fabric problem, just... it's the easy way out. Makes it really easy to claim "magic!" to justify any stupid bullshit people want.

 

 

My bad clarity is at times one of my biggest problem when typing. I know what I am saying in my head but putting down to words oh christ that is where the trouble starts. I was stating that they are in many ways much further advanced then civilation during the era of the roman empire. So working with silks to create finer lingerie wouldnt be much of a problem I would imagine that the redguards are already creating finer fabrics. The imperials and nords however seem to be lacking in the craft. Then again at this point in time a bolt of finer fabric would be worth half a kingdom

[Shadowhawk827]

I was going to post here myself, but reading over the previous post GSBmodders posted pretty much what I would have said.

 

Torture has been around for ages.  The ancient Chinese were masters of it, but they hardly had a monopoly.  Likewise, the lingerie and heels have been around in real world history alot longer than many people would think.  IIRC (old history channel show I saw) heels actually came into being in medieval France because the King was self-conscious about hwon short HE was, lol.  Accurate?  Who knows for sure.  History channel is USUALLY fairly accurate, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if somebody here found info about heels in ancient China and Egypt.

 

Blarrgh's post did a pretty good job of showing supportive pics from Daggerfall also.

 

 

One last thing also; keep in mind that 1) It's just a game.  I kind of like lore friendly also, BUT enjoyment should come first.  2) TES lore is pretty screwed up to begin with.  As Blarrgh also pointed out in another thread, there were muskets and ship board cannons in the old Redguard game, and that was set well before even Arena.  About 400 years according to the Wiki.  So, even guns can be argued to be lore friendly, even with Magic slowing the development of technology.

[xTrogdorx]

A pic of some TES2 NPC's. Bottom row, 3rd from the left, woman in red and black.

 

 

Straight up high heels, those.

 

That's actually http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:The_Night_Motherso I'm not sure she counts, being a spirit and all.

 

http://i.imgur.com/sJyM8DU.png

 

I'm still working on identifying the lady in the pink shirt.

[Kelinas]

I think the only real thing I've seen that's been 'unlore friendly' with my perusals have been the 'Ebonite' items, which is basically 'magic latex treating' or some similar thing. Appearencewise they look a bit odd in comparison to the mostly leather, steel and wood used in most construction in the holds of Skyrim, though considering it IS fluffed as a magic process you can handwave it slightly.

[carnifex]

 

as for sheer and delicate materials these are people that for magic is no big deal we know that they use spider silk. and we also know that they have trade agreements, so either producing or trading for these things would be of no real consequence

I feel like just saying "a wizard did it" is a cheap cop-out more than an actual explanation or rationalization. It relieves you of actually having to think of how or why the thing in question came to be. Not that it isn't a perfectly valid solution to the fabric problem, just... it's the easy way out. Makes it really easy to claim "magic!" to justify any stupid bullshit people want.

Well, we're talking about a world where magic is both abundant and very loosely defined, which makes any attempts to carefully explain things equal parts difficult and pointless.

[r5e4w3q2]

Randomness in lore clothing with no mention of the Khajiit suits from Daggerfall?  Apparently they have something related latex or spandex in Elsweyr.

[Rayblue]

BDSM gear are something the people of Tamriel have made, or are capable of making? 

 

Prior to Alessia's uprising, the Ayelids were twisted as Oblivion, especially when it came to the treatment of their slaves, and in one extreme case:

 

 

Most humans, at least, agree that the Ayleids' fall from power, if not their extinction, is for the better, as the portrayals of them passed down by their former slaves are not kind. Their scholars label the Ayleids as bellicose and arrogant, and point to this being the ultimate reason for their downfall.[23][29][30] Slaves were utilized by the Ayleids for a variety of purposes, including agricultural work, entertainment, and the building and maintenance of their empire's infrastructure. According to legend, the Ayleids literally turned cruelty into an art form, and many Daedra-worshipping Ayleids across Cyrodiil derived strange pleasures from "art-tortures".[27][17]

 

Typically, Ayleid kingdoms where the most malevolent Daedric Princes were worshipped also proved to exhibit the worst treatment of their slaves.[17] Various settlements became famous for their particular, elaborate method of torturing their slaves, such as "wailing wheels", "gut gardens", "flesh-sculptures", and forced ingestion of hallucinogenic drugs, as well as nighttime "tiger sport", which involved the immolation of human children.[27]

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleids

 

As for the high heels, well, let's just say we have the great Moebius to thank for the influence.

[xTrogdorx]

 

BDSM gear are something the people of Tamriel have made, or are capable of making? 

 

Prior to Alessia's uprising, the Ayelids were twisted as Oblivion, especially when it came to the treatment of their slaves, and in one extreme case:

 

 

Most humans, at least, agree that the Ayleids' fall from power, if not their extinction, is for the better, as the portrayals of them passed down by their former slaves are not kind. Their scholars label the Ayleids as bellicose and arrogant, and point to this being the ultimate reason for their downfall.[23][29][30] Slaves were utilized by the Ayleids for a variety of purposes, including agricultural work, entertainment, and the building and maintenance of their empire's infrastructure. According to legend, the Ayleids literally turned cruelty into an art form, and many Daedra-worshipping Ayleids across Cyrodiil derived strange pleasures from "art-tortures".[27][17]

 

Typically, Ayleid kingdoms where the most malevolent Daedric Princes were worshipped also proved to exhibit the worst treatment of their slaves.[17] Various settlements became famous for their particular, elaborate method of torturing their slaves, such as "wailing wheels", "gut gardens", "flesh-sculptures", and forced ingestion of hallucinogenic drugs, as well as nighttime "tiger sport", which involved the immolation of human children.[27]

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleids

 

As for the high heels, well, let's just say we have the great Moebius to thank for the influence.

 

 

They're talking about torture there, though. Skyrim has torture in abundance; you can't go through a castle, fort, cave, dwemer or nordic ruin, or bandit camp without tripping over some sort of torture implement. Heck, the vanilla intro runs you right through a dedicated torture room.

 

I was hoping for references/evidence of BDSM being used for sexual play, heels and/or lingerie being worn by mortals or mentioned in books. So far, all we have is conjecture and some sprites which show high heels, but one of those two characters is the portrayal of a daedric spirit and the other one appears to be a generic mage npc. That's not exactly a solid foundation for making the claim that any of this stuff is lore friendly. :Q

 

I'll do some reading into the Dunmer, maybe there's something there. I didn't find anything in the stories of Barenziah, but I was reading Skyrim's version so maybe there was something that got sanitized from the record.

 

[Serithi]

some sprites which show high heels, but one of those two characters is the portrayal of a daedric spirit and the other one appears to be a generic mage npc. That's not exactly a solid foundation for making the claim that any of this stuff is lore friendly. :Q

... Dude, that's two canonical portrayals of high heels. That's as solid and lore-friendly as you can get. The Night Mother being a spirit (who's not Daedric, FYI. Worships Sithis, yes, but was mortal in life nonetheless) has literally zero bearing here, they're not gonna have her wear high heels and then say "well the concept of high heels doesn't really exist in TES". That would make no sense whatsoever and is plain lazy, the concept of modern-day high heels pretty clearly exists already or she wouldn't be wearing them in the first place, same for the mage sprite. High heels - rare or not - clearly exist in TES, we have two confirmed NPC sprites with them, and the generic mage sprite would be popping up multiple times so that counts as multiple appearances of them.

 

You're setting yourself an impossibly high standard for evidence if two* blatantly obvious high heel-wearing sprites from a main TES game doesn't tell that yes indeed, high heels exist in TES.

 

You asked us lore nerds to point you towards art assets and the like that would be able to confirm this stuff, since you yourself haven't seen these assets yet. I've taken the liberty of scouring the lore pages and linking you the actual damned assets that confirm this, and here you are claiming "it's not solid"? You don't even know this stuff, hence why you're asking in the first place, so i kinda have to ask what position you're in to claim that two canonical portrayals - that have not been overwritten or retconned in any way - are anything less than canon?

 

*And that's not counting the multiple times the mage sprite would appear in the game.

 

EDIT: Actually, three. I linked you that sprite of the man in heels a couple days ago. Not quite high heels, but still pretty clearly the same sorta thing.

[xTrogdorx]

 

... Dude, that's two canonical portrayals of high heels. That's as solid and lore-friendly as you can get. The Night Mother being a spirit (who's not Daedric, FYI. Worships Sithis, yes, but was mortal in life nonetheless) has literally zero bearing here, they're not gonna have her wear high heels and then say "well the concept of high heels doesn't really exist in TES". That would make no sense whatsoever and is plain lazy, the concept of modern-day high heels pretty clearly exists already or she wouldn't be wearing them in the first place

 

 

The Night Mother is believed to have lived during the Second Era. Daggerfall takes place during the Third Era, so she must be dead by that point. Therefore, the sprite in the game files is a depiction of her spirit, wherein she can arguably appear however she wants, or however Sithis wants her to. This does not automatically translate to justification for mortals making and wearing heels; just because it's a concept for daedra or other oblivion-dwellers, doesn't mean it's also a concept for Tamriel-dwellers.

 

 

 

same for the mage sprite. High heels - rare or not - clearly exist in TES, we have two confirmed NPC sprites with them, and the generic mage sprite would be popping up multiple times so that counts as multiple appearances of them.

You're setting yourself an impossibly high standard for evidence if two* blatantly obvious high heel-wearing sprites from a main TES game doesn't tell that yes indeed, high heels exist in TES.

 

I admit that the mage sprite is stronger evidence... however, not much stronger than the "a mage did it" argument, because in this case, a mage could have literally done it.

 

Part of me wants to jump up and down and go "woo-hoo, heels confirmed canon!" But the rational part of me says, "ehhh, the fact that the only place we're seeing it is in a few old sprites suggests that their inclusion was perhaps due to liberties taken by the art team, that weren't caught by the story team." And the fact that they don't seem to be depicted in later games supports this theory; a sort of retcon-by-omission, if you will.

 

 

 

You asked us lore nerds to point you towards art assets and the like that would be able to confirm this stuff, since you yourself haven't seen these assets yet. I've taken the liberty of scouring the lore pages and linking you the actual damned assets that confirm this, and here you are claiming "it's not solid"? You don't even know this stuff, hence why you're asking in the first place, so i kinda have to ask what position you're in to claim that two canonical portrayals - that have not been overwritten or retconned in any way - are anything less than canon?

 

*And that's not counting the multiple times the mage sprite would appear in the game.

 

EDIT: Actually, three. I linked you that sprite of the man in heels a couple days ago. Not quite high heels, but still pretty clearly the same sorta thing

 

I appreciate the effort you put into looking up the assets. However, this is a discussion, where we come to state our opinions and challenge the opinions of others. You are certainly welcome to claim that I'm setting an impossible standard of evidence. However, if you're going to get cranky about it, well, no one is forcing you to post here.

[Serithi]

The lack of high heels in later games can just as easily be chalked up to the same main reason Khajiit and Argonians have been plantigrade post-Morrowind: Bethesda's lazy, so they just used standardized bodies for everyone. Zenimax is guilty of this too with ESO.

 

The Night Mother is dead, we already know that, matter of fact IIRC she killed herself as part of the ritual. That doesn't change the fact she can't just appear in some kind of clothing that no-one has a concept for, since it still begs the question of where she got it from. Even if high heels aren't that common, which does seem to be the case, there's a point to be made that her appearing in them would certainly introduce them to some people, spreading the concept further. And again, she's not a Daedra, she was a mortal and is ultimately the spirit of a mortal, she just hangs around a lot. She's certainly known for appearing in different forms, but she's still working with form that are known and recognizable to people. She still looks like a person, she still wears our clothes.

[GimmeBACON]

Short answer? No, not really. Regardless I wouldn't say the idea of sexy apparel and sexual devices are that foreign either, thinking about it, if you wanted it to be "lore-friendly" you would have to limit that kind of stuff to brothels and the like.

[yatol]

 

However, this is a discussion, where we come to state our opinions and challenge the opinions of others.

 

there is nothing to discuss

 

http://history-of-heels.weebly.com/origins-of-high-heels.html

maybe elisif have some high heels in her bedroom, why don't you go check

oh, you talk about lingerie too, did your heard about the lusty argonian maid? and your char need mods to not have a bra when she remove her clothes

and there's bdsm gear in unmodded skyrim, since you care so much about lore, instead of rushing the coffer, take a closer look when you are stealing

[the_mess]

I don't consider the high heels lore friendly because of the environment where the game takes place. Unless the girl is some witch/sorcerer who floats above the ground to move around, I doubt anyone would prefer to run around with high heels. 

[Guest]

 If this was an online game with lore enforcers itching to jump all over you for dressing like an anachronistic  sloot and upsetting the roleplay guilds  I could understand the desire for absolute guidance on such things. But it isn't and there aren't any.  That just leaves a dizzying number of mods covering just about every taste, and personal judgement. 

 

Don't go looking for some sort of hive minded approval or disapproval, not here on this site especially, we're all freaks.  

 

Do what thou wilt. 

 

 

 

[Hey_I'm_Mike]

Not really.

[carnifex]

They're talking about torture there, though. Skyrim has torture in abundance; you can't go through a castle, fort, cave, dwemer or nordic ruin, or bandit camp without tripping over some sort of torture implement. Heck, the vanilla intro runs you right through a dedicated torture room.

 

I was hoping for references/evidence of BDSM being used for sexual play, heels and/or lingerie being worn by mortals or mentioned in books. So far, all we have is conjecture and some sprites which show high heels, but one of those two characters is the portrayal of a daedric spirit and the other one appears to be a generic mage npc. That's not exactly a solid foundation for making the claim that any of this stuff is lore friendly. :Q

 

I'll do some reading into the Dunmer, maybe there's something there. I didn't find anything in the stories of Barenziah, but I was reading Skyrim's version so maybe there was something that got sanitized from the record.

 

You might as well say there was no bdsm in the middle ages, since we have no sources explicitly describing such practices *roll*

[Serithi]

Regarding BDSM, i would like to include "Sanguine is a Daedric Prince whose sphere is hedonistic revelry, debauchery, and passionate indulgences of darker natures" and "Sanguine's Realms are a collection of one hundred thousand realms of Oblivion, created and ruled over by the Daedric Prince of Indulgence, Sanguine. The realms are used mainly as "pleasure pockets", with very little else being known about them."

 

I don't know about you, but i'm pretty sure hardcore BDSM falls under "darker indulgences" here, not to mention 100,000 individual planes of pleasure is statistically speaking pretty much guaranteed to include that stuff somewhere.