Sexout, facial expressions, and you

[prideslayer]

We all know sexout sorely lacks in the facial expressions department; it doesn't have any. Everyone has the same 1000yd stare during sex.

 

There is a solution to this issue, and in fact, I thought there were two but I may be mistaken. So I'm calling on other modders and testers to help me out in trying to find a solution.

 

The "hard" way to fix this is to simply animate the face in each animation file. This isn't hard to do when making them, but with the # we have that already exist, it's a lot of work. Also it would double the # of animation files we need, roughly, so we could have at least two facial expressions for each anim -- a happy/sad cons/rape nice/painful pairing, at least.

 

The easier way, or what I thought would be easier, is to have Sexout do it.

 

For some time now, sexout has included all the expressions and morphs from FAFF. You can execute these on an NPC at any time by just opening the console, clicking them, and doing a playidle. For example, clicking an NPC and typing "playidle fe03" will give you Zoolander's "Blue Steel" expression on that NPC.

 

To remove it: playidle resetface

 

It will stick, more or less, forever. You can do it to the player too but you must be in the UFO cam.

 

The reason these are included is because I had planned to come up with an appropriate mixture of expressions and morphs for each situation and apply them during sex, but there's a problem. For one reason or another, playidle on a sexout anim (or at least the few I've tested) causes the facial expression to reset back to the 1000yd stare.

 

The playidle for the facial expression must come first. If I playidle the expression after the sex anim is playing, it interrupts the sex anim and stands the character up in the neutral pose. So the goal here is to set an expression, let the sexout anim play, then remove the expression.

 

So I'm looking for volunteers to try and figure out why the facial animations get removed when a sexout animation starts. Is it something in the animation files that I can just easily delete with nifskope? Is there some other way than playidle or pickidle of triggering an animation?

 

I know it's possible for the engine to play two animations at once against separate sets of bones. You can see this anytime a character is walking and talking at the same time, or sitting and talking, or doing anything except standing like a mannequin while talking.

 

Incentive: I'll give you a big shoutout and some internets. Duh.

 

bigger Bigger BIGGER incentive: If you get this working, chances are VERY HIGH that I can also get dynamic breast (and other body part) resizing, erection states, and so on working as well.

[panthercom]

 I want to clarify first, there is more than one type of failure, and Prideslayer's  symptoms

differ from some of mine.

 

 Until about a week ago, I was able to load a face expression after sex had started; yes,

the characters would stand up briefly, but the animation would continue with the face expression

in place. The face expression would stick until I reset it, or closed the game. Within the last week,

I experienced  a failure like Prideslayer's where applying a face expression during sex would

stop the sex animation.  The sex animation would only continue if I typed 'playidle resetface'

 

 There is a bug which has nothing to do with Sexout, involving the FAFF expressions. I know

this because I have had the face expressions go from a condition of staying on the face until

reset manually (working correctly) , to automatically resetting after ten seconds, well before I

ever knew about Sexout, on two previous installs of New Vegas. I have also had the facial

morphs stop working in the same fashion, they would  work a few times and then break (individual morphs).

 I 'think' I may have had the same thing happen with Fallout 3; but it's been a while, so I don't

remember clearly.

 

 There is also a bug exactly like what Prideslayer has described; this is what I just encountered in

the past week.

 

 Looking at the support entries for FAFF on the Nexus, a few others have had the same thing happen.

Unfortunately nobody ever bothered to post a solution, from what I could see.

 

 It's also supposed to be possible to load an expression before loading a pose, and have it stick; this

also stopped working correctly at the same time the other symptoms showed up with Sexout.

 

 For the sake of troubleshooting, I reinstalled New Vegas without clearing anything out of the Data

folder first. The purpose of this was to see if the vanilla game files had been corrupted, and if overwriting

them with a new install would clear the problem. This did not fix the problem. So, either the vanilla game

files did not get overwritten successfully, or there is something not native to the vanilla install which is

causing the problem. Now I'm going to wipe everything in the data directory folders and do a reinstall;

I will keep the NVSE and GECK related files and delete everything else. If this fixes the problem, I will

install Amra's new animations (with expressions) Version 27, test, and then add his resources for modders

animation files and test again if the expression didn't fail in the previous steps.

 

 The only other possibility I can think of is the GECK messing something up; I do use it, with the NVSE loader and

Powerup conversion.

 

FWIW, setting the face expressions to loop in the GECK  and creating an .esp to enable this will force the

expressions to stay on, until you apply a pose or animations, so this is not a viable solution.

 

 Also worth noting is that the expressions within Amra's animations still work for me. You need to try setting

expressions on one of the original 'stonefaced' animations. You could also try using some pose mods.

I was using Slave in Pose for New Vegas (Is this embedded within Sexout now, Prideslayer?)

 

 We need some guinea pigs here, unless you enjoy having your PC stare off into space like a mannequin

when she's getting fucked, for all eternity...

 

 Slave in Pose pose animations are in the t01 to t70 (approximately) range.

Face expression are from fe01 to fe27.

Open console, type tfc, close console, open console and click on your player

character and type fe27; her mouth should open and eyes close and should

stay that way until you type playidle.resetface. If the expression sticks the way

it should, exit tfc mode (type tfc) and type 'y' to initiate masturbation within Sexout, or

load a pose and see if the expression stays or resets to the vanilla blank stare.

 If the open mouth expression stays in place, it would be useful to know what you haven't

installed, in addition to your load order. So if you haven't manually added Amra's animations,

or recently updated any Sexout plugins that would be useful to know.

[prideslayer]

Slave in pose is not included in sexout, no.

 

The facial animations in amra's animations do work of course, but that's sort of a "duh". Doing that to all the animations is a "last ditch" way to fix this, but we'd all rather get the standalone expressions and morphs working nicely with sexout.

 

I don't have any real solution to your issues or those reported on the FAFF discussion, but I'm in favor of starting fresh here anyway. In my testing, which is very lightweight on mods, the expressions stick on an NPC until they play a new idle. It doesn't matter if the new idle comes from sexout or from the engine. I have no pose or animations mods installed except for Sexout.

 

This indicates to me the two problems are actually the same problem -- playing any animation after setting an expression resets the expression.

 

If you do want to make sure this is the case, uninstall all mods, tell steam to validate the FONV cache, install only sexout (or FAFF), and test.

 

Here is the same discussion, basically, from June 2012:

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/7007-facial-idles-sexout-faff/

 

We did not get it working then, so I'm firing up a 2nd attempt.

[prideslayer]

Regarding that thread and the morphs, I'm having two problems at present.

 

1. The morphs (fmXX) do not seem to last long at all any more.

 

2. The "stand up" issue.

 

I am going to keep testing and experimenting, but the more the merrier.

[prideslayer]

I'm also going to revisig the lipsync/dialog solution. Maybe we can get that working and screw the FAFF files.

 

There is a guide on nexus for getting the GECK lipsync working by copying some stuff from the Skyrim CK to the FONV data dir, for others who want to give it a try.

 

This has the potential to work by creating an empty WAV file of the appropriate length, and the text to go with it, generating the .lip file, and then telling the character to speak that dialog during sex. I'm not sure how/if this would work to animate the players face.

[D_ManXX2]

Don't know if this is an issue. But blender will make default priority when exporting an animation if you don't set a number it will use a default 33 % so if the faf has an default of 20 the sexout animation will override faff. when an animation plays. so i am not sure what the priority for faff was when exporting it will be best to import those and then export those head morphs with 99 priority so nothing else will override them when they play normally.

 

Those animation i made previously i made everything 99 and kept the head as low as possible so other animation can override them normally if i kept it at 99 sexout will always keep the head morphs at neutral state. So you will never see any faf morphs when playing them.

[A.J.]

I did a try

 

- Playidle fe01 - ok

- set id.anim, set actora to getself etc.etc. cios - ok - facial expression is still up

- after the end it's still up, even if I re-cios, until I manually reset the facial expression.

- Setting fe01 after the cios stops the animation, as Prideslayer said.

 

Is it useful?

 

PS since you spoke about lipsync... wouldn't be nice using some startconversation to trigger a lipsync? I know there's a workaround to Fallout broken lipsync system, installing a patch, I never used it because the few times I used lipsync was using the "old system" as Oblivion

[prideslayer]

A.J., that's what I found the last time I tried this, and I think it's the only "working" method I can use right now.

 

In the other thread, when I figured that bit out, I asked for volunteers to go through the different sexout anims and test them with different morphs and send me the morph combinations that looked good with the different anims. I got no volunteers for that one.

 

StartConversation won't work, but SayTo or whatever it's called should. StartConversation pops up the dialog window, the other one is for "overhearing" conversations without having to interact with a menu. That's the one that I'm not sure will work on the player. It *should* but you never know what crazy things beth has done in the engine for no good reason.

[t3589]

Having the NPC SayTo themselves worked a treat to get NPCs to express the emotions set on the SayTo topics dialogue.  I too tried fairly hard to get the PC to do it and failed miserably.  FAFF worked, but only if they stand up reset.  The SayTo trick I couldn't get to work on the PC at all.  It's been a while, but I think it makes them stand up reset too.

[prideslayer]

Well that figures. On the one hand, having it work on everyone else is still a good thing. On the other hand.. we're players. We probably don't care if everyone but us works right.

[A.J.]

A.J., that's what I found the last time I tried this, and I think it's the only "working" method I can use right now.

 

In the other thread, when I figured that bit out, I asked for volunteers to go through the different sexout anims and test them with different morphs and send me the morph combinations that looked good with the different anims. I got no volunteers for that one.

 

StartConversation won't work, but SayTo or whatever it's called should. StartConversation pops up the dialog window, the other one is for "overhearing" conversations without having to interact with a menu. That's the one that I'm not sure will work on the player. It *should* but you never know what crazy things beth has done in the engine for no good reason.

 

- Yes, but it seems panthercom had problems with that method, so I just wanted to say that it was working for me exactly as for you, so maybe there's something else for him, as a mod conflict from some extra mod he is using, etc.

 

- I'm... not good in that, so I unfortunately will pass this one... Please don't bash me for this...

I'm very interested in this thread because I really would like to learn how to add facial expressions to animations. If there were bones in the main skeleton I use for "common animations", I would animate them along with the other bones, an expression is sooo essential for an animation... I've read a lovely tutorial from Labrat that explains how to add an expression using nifskope, but there's a problem in my opinion. For what I've understood (but I can be wrong of course), you can't link the expression to the timeline itself, you can simply say "in this animation, use this facial expression". So you can't say "at second 1.4 close the eyes, at second 1.6 open the eyes" to simulate a "nictate" (this comes from dictionary, I hope it's the right word). This leads me to the next point...

 

- I don't know how it works with player too, but I made a mistake. I wasn't meaning startconversation, I was meaning npc.sayto himself, like the other user said. In my opinion, if you can use SO "noises" as a sort of dialogue, it would be great: not only you could apply lipsync that is perfectly synced, but MAYBE it would be possible to play with the Animations you choose during a dialogue. You know, like LooseCrossedArms etc.etc., well think to this: adding new animations that don't involve the bones you use during the animation, I really feel they could play together the animation itself in this case (inside a dialogue topic), creating a very nice variety that won't imply changing the animation itself, only changing the dialogue parameters. I... don't know if I explained well what I mean. But I think for example if I'm speaking with a NPC that is working to a workbench, he continues working at the workbench while speaking with me, this means both (facial and body animations) are running toghether. In this case the only unrealistic fact is that the npc will turn to me while he continues working, so he's working at "nothing", hammering the air... but this is because of startconversation, if it was a "npc.sayto himself" he wouldn't turn to me.

[panthercom]

 I've done a little bit of troubleshooting.

 I'm running Sexout with a TTW install on a new computer, including

a new SSD, so there shouldn't be any artefacts from my previous install.

 

Sexout Core 2.6.82

Sexout Data 2.6.80

 

I initially tried it without Amra's animation replacer. The face reset itself 90%

of the time with or without sex animations running. On fe27 (yawning) the eyes

would reset but the mouth would stay open some of the time.

I tried swapping the Sexout.esm with the one from 2.6.77 - no cure.

 

 I'm confident if I had done an install with 2.6.77 Core and Data with no plugins

that the expressions wouldn't be resetting themselves, as my intial testing had

no additional Sexout plugins installed; the only sex animation was masturbation.

 

 Do the latest Sexout Core and Data files contain any of the new animations, or

perhaps a skeleton that differs from Astymma's in some way? I'm asking, since his

skeleton is a requirement for FAFF. Something seems to have gotten broken

between old and new versions of Sexout, and if it's not the esm then it's something

else within the core or data.

 

 My next step will be to uninstall all Sexout components and revert to  2.6.77, after

I have a look at the skeleton and replace it with Astymma's original one if needed.

 

 One other odd thing about my old New Vegas install; I'm pretty confident I had FAFF

running alongside Sexout for at least a year, being unaware that Sexout contained it.

 At the same time my facial expressions started resetting, the independent install of

FAFF started preventing sex animations from playing.

 

 

[prideslayer]

Do the latest Sexout Core and Data files contain any of the new animations, or

perhaps a skeleton that differs from Astymma's in some way?

Nope. I have not included AMRA's or DMan's animations yet due to lack of time, and because AMRA's conflict with the vanilla ones (the penis issue.)

 

The skeleton is astymma's, added in .81r2 (point release from .81, no other differences)

 

The last animations added were in 78.

 

One other odd thing about my old New Vegas install; I'm pretty confident I had FAFF

running alongside Sexout for at least a year, being unaware that Sexout contained it.

 At the same time my facial expressions started resetting, the independent install of

FAFF started preventing sex animations from playing.

That is because the FAFF esp is broken, it has a dirty edit to the idle groups, like most of the other animation mods (groovatron, umpa dance, etc). If you fix the FAFF esp then the two can coexist fine, though doing so is pointless.

[ChancellorKremlin]

I'm also going to revisig the lipsync/dialog solution. Maybe we can get that working and screw the FAFF files.

 

There is a guide on nexus for getting the GECK lipsync working by copying some stuff from the Skyrim CK to the FONV data dir, for others who want to give it a try.

 

This has the potential to work by creating an empty WAV file of the appropriate length, and the text to go with it, generating the .lip file, and then telling the character to speak that dialog during sex. I'm not sure how/if this would work to animate the players face.

 

To answer this question, it works fine on both the PC and NPCs involved, but the effect is far too subtle. Yeah, the lips move a little, you get some (small) oohs and aaahs here and there, but dead eyes, no upper face movement, it's not much of an improvement, unfortunately. 

[prideslayer]

Ah, that's unfortunate. Thanks for looking into it. Guess we're back to trying to figure out what we can do with FAFF.

 

Another possibility would be automatically combining two NIFs with niflib. This could take the vanilla non-expression animations and then 'apply' faff expressions to them automatically to create new rapey-notrapey-etc 'combo files'. I don't know if that's something niflib can do or not though. If it can, I could run a standalone tool to generate the different permutations and include them in the fomod, or possibly do the combination in NX just in time. The latter is probably not realistic though, as the .kf files are probably cached after being read up the first time, similar to the skeleton, textures, etc.

[ChancellorKremlin]

Well, I might be being harsh, but my problem is mainly that you don't get frowns, or any sort of deep or meaningful expression above the mouth, which is obviously incongruous with say, rough sex. It is still better than nothing, but probably not worth the effort of lipsynching and writing entire lines.

 

Take a look:

 

http://www.naughtymachinima.com/video/9039/ll-so-lipsync-test

 

Notes - the music is just an overlay, but the moans are custom replacers I added. Each "scene" represents a different test with a variation of different written lines (say aaahhh vs AAAHHH) and combinations of values and facial expressions such as sad, angry, happy, surprised, etc. The girl is the PC.

 

As you can see, the effect is subtle.

 

EDIT: Forgot to set it to public. Fixed.

[prideslayer]

I'm with you bud.

 

I do have another thing to check though. It's possible that the animation group settings are wrong for the facial expressions and morphs. If they're set to upperbody, they *will* conflict with all other animations in that group -- only one animation from that group can be playing on an actor at a time.

 

If that's the case, just fixing that should fix their compatability problem with sexout. I'm checking now.

[prideslayer]

Well they are all set to the same group, I need to brush up on the 'rules' there. I think it's upperbody (or wholebody) that is restricted, but it may be that no two anims in the same group can play at the same time no matter what the group is. Both FAFF and Sexout use the SpecialIdle group for their animations.

[prideslayer]

Ah indeed that looks like it.. from the geck wiki.

 

Only one animation file can play on any animation group. Thus, playing a special idle on a Weapon group will terminate any animation currently playing on that group. Whole Body animation group terminates all other animations playing. Upper Body teminates animations playing on the groups associated with the upper body.

So I'll have to experiment with the groups and see what kind of combination I can come up with. Changing the sex ones to UpperBody instead of SpecialIdle should work I think.

[ChancellorKremlin]

I really hope it is this simple! 

 

EDIT: Preliminary testing really is proving that it really is not  that simple.

 

If I'm doing it right and all it takes it to switch the Group Animations under Idle Animations in the GECK, then so far no combinations of a single SO anim, lipsynched moans and fe's seem to be working. If there is more to the process, then I'm obviously doing something wrong.

 

If not, then I'm running out of combinations to try.

[labrat]

Keep trying. I'm sure you'll get there eventually

[D_ManXX2]

Gerra has already succeeded getting facials for blender:

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/18277-lovers-animations-workshop-new-thread/page-33?do=findComment&comment=590384

 

Maybe we could try and ask him to make something like oblivion for fallout. This will seem to fix all of our problems in 1 go.

 

Not only having facials during animation bu also having the facials available during animation creation will make it easier for animators to combine both in 1 go.

[prideslayer]

AJ has told me that the animations can't be combined by the engine no matter what, but I'm getting more details.

 

One thing I think is possible as a backup plan is for sexout to combine the sex and facial .kf's during mod activation in FOMM. This is an ugly hack but would save animators from having to create different copies of every animation, with different facial expressions. It would be sort of like a FNIS type deal, except built in to the sexout FOMOD and automatically run whenever the FOMOD is activated.

 

The oversimplified process would be to load a sexout animation, copy the bone information to it from a facial animation, and then save it as a new name. As many combinations as we need could be made this way.

[Loogie]

I don't see how it's an ugly hack. Sounds like a more advanced version of slapping outfits and weapons together in nifskope.

[DoctaSax]

x facial anims times x sex anims might take some reorganizing though.