The space encounters I'd love to see

[TheRightDoorIsNotTheLeft]

I'm pretty sure all the space encounters are pretty random. You know, you jump to a star system and are immediately accosted by a 4th grade class, a factory warrantee salesman, etc. Say you're off to kill a Crimson Fleet ship, but before you can get there, you can sometimes encounter annoying ships like those. 

 

Why not have both at the same time?

 

"Hello, it's Mrs. Whitmore.... what?! Kids! Go to the safe room! It's the Crimson Fleet!"

 

That's the kind of random encounter we all need.

 

 

[Djlegends]

1 hour ago, TheRightDoorIsNotTheLeft said:

I'm pretty sure all the space encounters are pretty random. You know, you jump to a star system and are immediately accosted by a 4th grade class, a factory warrantee salesman, etc. Say you're off to kill a Crimson Fleet ship, but before you can get there, you can sometimes encounter annoying ships like those. 

 

Why not have both at the same time?

 

"Hello, it's Mrs. Whitmore.... what?! Kids! Go to the safe room! It's the Crimson Fleet!"

 

That's the kind of random encounter we all need.

 

 

hmm that probably need to edit vanilla quests but its doable

[Kraven12]

Black hole, quasar's, gas anomalies, more abandoned space stations or ships.   

[Reigor]

Related. I want enemies to be able to target the player ship's engines, disable them, and then board the player's ship to either kill or capture the player and their crew.

 

I also want the possibility of misjumps where the player's ship ends up in a different location or gets stuck in grav space and has a one on one conversation with the Great Serpent or other cosmic entities that lurk there.

 

As for different ship encounters. More derelict ships and stations to explore, ones that have been overrun by pirates or even a terrormorph. I want to be able to scan ships and see if they have a bounty on them. If I'm of the dubious type (part of a smuggler or crimson fleet faction) I can interact and trade with those criminals. On the flip side, the UC and FC might harrass me with spot inspections and other abuse even if I don't have a current bounty.

 

 

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

7 hours ago, Kraven12 said:

Black hole, quasar's, gas anomalies, more abandoned space stations or ships.   

Abandoned or lost ships is always a fun idea, I think.

[Mr. Otaku]

7 hours ago, Kraven12 said:

Black hole, quasar's, gas anomalies, more abandoned space stations or ships.   

 

I don't think Starfield's star map range is big enough to allow black holes and quasars. It's in a weird position where it's big enough to allow a ton of systems really far away but at the same time miniscule compared to our own galaxy, so lot of the cool stuff is simply beyond reach. But abandoned space stations/ships is much more in line with the game's scope, we have some already and they're adding more with Shattered Space which is nice, this time with more cosmic horror vibes which is super interesting.

[VenomousOuroboros]

9 hours ago, Reigor said:

I want enemies to... board the player's ship to either kill or capture the player and their crew.

...

More derelict ships and stations to explore, ones that have been overrun by pirates or even a terrormorph.

...

the UC and FC might harrass me with spot inspections and other abuse even if I don't have a current bounty.

 

 

This.  All of this.  It's time for us, the Player, to not be the only skeevy sonofabitch who exploits the chaotic freedom of Space.
I want to wonder, each time I come across a ship, a new system, or a dogfight: "Am I ready for what might happen?"

[Kraven12]

19 hours ago, Mr. Otaku said:

 

I don't think Starfield's star map range is big enough to allow black holes and quasars. 

More reason I hate this old engine. Too many limitations. 

[Reigor]

On 6/26/2024 at 7:02 AM, Mr. Otaku said:

I don't think Starfield's star map range is big enough to allow black holes and quasars.

 

A grav mis jump could work. According to the lore, the grav drive isn't 100 percent, especially in its early days. So could misjump to a remote part of the galaxy on the edge of a quasar or blackhole system and then have have to get back to the settled systems through a series of tasks. Could also be a gateway to a quest hub region, like a sea of derelict vessels, including Starborn and maybe alien ones.

[Reigor]

5 hours ago, Kraven12 said:

More reason I hate this old engine. Too many limitations. 

 

It's not a limitation of the engine, its a limitation of the game's setting of its stories. 

[Kraven12]

11 hours ago, Reigor said:

 

It's not a limitation of the engine, its a limitation of the game's setting of its stories. 

So poor planning on the part of the devs? If Fallout 76 can get new areas added and expanded to that game, it can happen here. Realistically in RL, the universe is expanding as well. 

Edited June 27, 2024 by Kraven12

[nIn nIn nIn]

7 minutes ago, Kraven12 said:

So poor planning on the part of the devs? If Fallout 76 can get new areas added and expanded to that game, it can happen here. Realistically in RL, the universe is expanding as well. 

 

The settled systems is a good design choice. Grav drives have a limit on their range. A design choice. The number of systems in the playable space is a design choice based on grav drive limitations and "realistic" extent of human expansion in a 200 year window of time. No point having a billion systems with just 1 family in each of them. The steam haters are raging that the planets are "empty" already. Imagine them with a billion empty star systems and 8 billion empty planets and 16 billion empty moons.

BGS could always add extra systems with DLC. Something I am expecting with the Shattered Space DLC that is coming this fall (Spring for me). 

It's reported (or so I am told) that devs have mentioned content was cut during "crunch week" so they could get the game out. Maybe thats true. Cut content can get finished and added back in as an expansion/dlc.

[Kraven12]

I am still looking for the "Hey I finally ( manually) left a solar system and travelling the universe and scans have picked up something that is not hostile to me between Atlantis system and Tau. What could it be? If you ever look up Spacedock on youtube, explains what goes into exploration and what is not. And Starfield(in gameplay and not by name) is featured twice in it.

Edited June 28, 2024 by Kraven12

[TheRightDoorIsNotTheLeft]

On 6/23/2024 at 10:18 AM, Djlegends said:

hmm that probably need to edit vanilla quests but its doable

 

I'd seriously pay money for that tweak. You offering?

[DocClox]

6 hours ago, Kraven12 said:

I am still looking for the "Hey I finally ( manually) left a solar system and travelling the universe and scans have picked up something that is not hostile to me between Atlantis system and Tau

 

The thing to understand is that there are two theoretical ways to travel between stars faster than the speed of light would normally allow. One of them is wrap the ship in its own bubble of spacetime, and move the bubble which doesn't technically violate light speed. This is the Star Trek Warp Drive approach.

 

The second one is to generate a temporary wormhole linking where you are with the star where you want to go and then fly through the wormhole. This is the approach used in the Niven & Pournelle Mote books, and also in Star Wars. It's the approach used in the Grav Drive in Event Horizon (although the creepy ship possessed by uncanny forces from beyond the void aspect isn't strictly part of the theory). And it's the approach used in Starfield, which even takes the name of the drive from Event Horizon.

 

It's not because the engine can't cope. It's not because the devs were lazy. It's a matter of worldbuilding.  That's all there is to it.

 

On 6/26/2024 at 3:07 AM, Kraven12 said:

Black hole, quasar's, gas anomalies

 

The thing is, a Black Hole isn't the sort of thing you walk around the corner and go "you know, I could have sworn that wasn't there last week". These are supermassive objects with gravity fields the bend spacetime dramatically. If there was one in the region, we'd know about it. Again, it's not an engine limitation, but world-building. Which isn't to say we might not encounter artificially generated black holes at some point, but that's almost certainly going to be a plot point rather than a random encounter.

[Miauzi]

Am 26.06.2024 um 05:07 Uhr sagte Kraven12:

Schwarze Löcher, Quasare, Gasanomalien, mehr verlassene Raumstationen oder Schiffe. 

 

I have no idea whether you have ever had at least one class in "astronomy" at school or whether you learned all your knowledge about space from comics...

...but a "quasar" is an active galaxy core with an energy output that is not only millions of times greater than that of our sun, for example... but also creates a dead zone for biological life hundreds of light years wide.

For a superficial immersion in real space, the Wiki article is enough

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasar

 

Am 26.06.2024 um 13:02 Uhr sagte Herr Otaku:

Ich glaube nicht, dass der Sternenkartenbereich von Starfield groß genug ist, um Schwarze Löcher und Quasare zu ermöglichen.

 

as I have already written - quasars are the cores of active galaxies ... and the core of our Milky Way is far from being a quasar

Black holes ... well, there are "stellar" black holes - that is, the corpses of stars with more than three times the mass of today's sun ... and they will be quite numerous

so one or more stellar black holes can easily exist in the tiny star area that the game world of "Starfield" encompasses ... either as a solo system (which would then be the starting point for a "misjump") or as a companion in a multiple system (this is how many currently known black holes were discovered - through the visible transfer of matter from the visible partner star)

However, neutron stars are much more dangerous - especially "pulsars" or even "magnetars" - their output of electromagnetic radiation destroys all ship electronics ... and they are much more common

[Miauzi]

Vor 19 Minuten sagte DocClox:

 

Man muss verstehen, dass es theoretisch zwei Möglichkeiten gibt, zwischen Sternen schneller zu reisen, als es die Lichtgeschwindigkeit normalerweise zulässt. Eine davon besteht darin, das Schiff in seine eigene Raumzeitblase einzuhüllen und die Blase zu bewegen, was technisch gesehen keine Verletzung der Lichtgeschwindigkeit darstellt. Dies ist der Star Trek Warp Drive-Ansatz.

 

Die zweite Möglichkeit besteht darin, ein temporäres Wurmloch zu erzeugen, das Ihren Aufenthaltsort mit dem Stern verbindet, zu dem Sie wollen, und dann durch das Wurmloch zu fliegen. Dieser Ansatz wird in den Büchern von Niven & Pournelle Mote und auch in Star Wars verwendet. Es ist der Ansatz, der beim Grav Drive in Event Horizon verwendet wird (obwohl das gruselige Schiff, das von unheimlichen Kräften jenseits des Leerenaspekts besessen ist, nicht unbedingt Teil der Theorie ist). Und es ist der Ansatz von Starfield, der sogar den Namen des Laufwerks von Event Horizon übernimmt.

 

Es liegt nicht daran, dass der Motor nicht damit klarkommt. Es liegt nicht daran, dass die Entwickler faul waren. Es ist eine Frage des Weltaufbaus. Das ist alles dazu.

 

 

Die Sache ist die: Ein Schwarzes Loch ist nicht die Art von Ding, bei dem man um die Ecke geht und sagt: „Weißt du, ich hätte schwören können, dass es letzte Woche nicht da war.“ Dies sind supermassereiche Objekte mit Schwerkraftfeldern, die die Raumzeit dramatisch krümmen. Wenn es einen in der Region gäbe, wüssten wir Bescheid. Auch hier handelt es sich nicht um eine motorische Einschränkung, sondern um den Aufbau der Welt. Das heißt nicht, dass wir nicht irgendwann auf künstlich erzeugte Schwarze Löcher stoßen werden, aber das wird mit ziemlicher Sicherheit eher ein Handlungspunkt als eine zufällige Begegnung sein.

 

The current SF films limit the range of possibilities far too much - in earlier SF literature, other concepts for traveling "faster than light" were discussed... and one should remember that quite a few SF authors came/come from the world of natural science.

In the "Ringworld" universe, for example, there is the concept of "hyperspace" - which has nothing in common with "warp bubble" or "wormhole"!

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringwelt

 

 

[DocClox]

9 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

In the "Ringworld" universe, for example, there is the concept of "hyperspace" - which has nothing in common with "warp bubble" or "wormhole"!

 

It's still basically a warp drive, albeit one where you can't see out the windows. You go through normal space (or a space close enough to normal space) such that flying through a star would be a Bad Idea - it was a major plot point in the second Beowulf Shaefer story, At The Core, if you remember.

 

Really it all boils down to one of two options: you either move through our universe space at superluminal speeds, or you move outside of our universe and take a shortcut. The window dressing varies, but most everything breaks down into one of those two scenarios.

 

The only thing I can think of that really doesn't fall into either classification is Ozzie's Walkabout in Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga, and while that might conceivably crop up as a plot point, it doesn't get us any closer to encountering Black Holes as random encounters - which was the original point.

[Miauzi]

Vor 17 Minuten sagte DocClox:

 

Im Grunde ist es immer noch ein Warp-Antrieb, wenn auch einer, bei dem man nicht aus dem Fenster sehen kann. Man fliegt durch den normalen Raum (oder einen Raum, der nahe genug am normalen Raum liegt), so dass es eine schlechte Idee wäre, durch einen Stern zu fliegen – wenn Sie sich erinnern, war das ein wichtiger Handlungspunkt in der zweiten Beowulf Shaefer-Geschichte, At The Core.

 

Im Grunde läuft alles auf eine von zwei Möglichkeiten hinaus: Entweder man bewegt sich mit Überlichtgeschwindigkeit durch unseren Universumsraum, oder man bewegt sich außerhalb unseres Universums und nimmt eine Abkürzung. Die Schaufensterdekoration ist unterschiedlich, aber fast alles lässt sich auf eines dieser beiden Szenarien zurückführen.

 

Das Einzige, was mir einfällt und das wirklich keiner der beiden Kategorien zuzuordnen ist, ist Ozzies Walkabout in Peter F. Hamiltons Commonwealth Saga, und obwohl das möglicherweise als Handlungspunkt auftauchen könnte, bringt es uns der Begegnung mit Black nicht näher Löcher als zufällige Begegnungen – das war der ursprüngliche Sinn.

 

It wasn't just about flying directly through a strong gravitational center like a star... planets, on the other hand, are not a problem... but hyperspace itself is a separate space with -> its own life forms and they obviously exist at such grav-fixed points.

Why don't the "outsiders" go into hyperspace even though they have the technology to do so, or rather they equipped the "warm" races with it in the first place.

But stellar objects like the huge ring world (its mass is at least enough for a red dwarf star) can be transported through this hyperspace and positioned exactly at a new sun.

 

[DocClox]

53 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

Why don't the "outsiders" go into hyperspace even though they have the technology to do so, or rather they equipped the "warm" races with it in the first place.

 

Yeah. The Outsiders are basically Space Magic. No one in Known Space knows how they do what they do, and no one can afford the prices the Outsiders charge to answer those questions. They're not a great example of alternative FTL mechanisms.

 

Which isn't to say Bethesda will never introduce a race of aliens with godlike powers that can only be employed at major plot points ... but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.

Edited June 28, 2024 by DocClox
"Known Worlds?" Still waking up, clearly.

[Miauzi]

Vor 38 Minuten sagte DocClox:

 

Ja. Die Outsider sind im Grunde Weltraummagie. Niemand in den Bekannten Welten weiß, wie sie tun, was sie tun, und niemand kann sich die Preise leisten, die die Außenseiter für die Beantwortung dieser Fragen verlangen. Sie sind kein gutes Beispiel für alternative FTL-Mechanismen.

 

Das heißt nicht, dass Bethesda niemals eine Rasse von Außerirdischen mit gottähnlichen Kräften einführen wird, die nur an wichtigen Handlungspunkten eingesetzt werden können ... aber ich werde nicht den Atem anhalten und warten.

 

The concept of hyperspace - which has been around in science fiction literature for at least 70 years - was usually conceived as -> "outside" Einstein space (the physical universe as we know it).

This was the only way to circumvent the Einstein limit of the speed of light - because in hyperspace other limits apply... which, depending on the author, were either meticulously fantasized together or completely ignored.

Hyperspace is basically a reverse string theory - in which our 4 dimensions (3 for space and one for time) are only sub-dimensions of a larger "construction".

Let's see what the "holographic universe" approach brings in the next few years

 

---

 

I have no idea where the "writers" of StarField got their ideas for their world construction... but it reminds me of the worst science fiction trash I've ever read.

 

We already have a super race with godlike powers and knowledge -> the "starborn"

How did humanity get the formulas for the grav drive? -> through a "starborn"

... who deliberately concealed from his "protégé" that the formula is incomplete... and that the drive based on it not only makes the earth uninhabitable but also wipes out 95% of the earth's population

 

So they deliberately created a counterpart to the "grandfather" paradox... the authors definitely watched too many episodes of the SF series "Sliders"

Edited June 28, 2024 by Miauzi

[DocClox]

30 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

The concept of hyperspace - which has been around in science fiction literature for at least 70 years - was usually conceived as -> "outside" Einstein space (the physical universe as we know it).

 

Yes. And both the warp drive and the generated wormhole approach use "hyperspace". So how does that help us?

 

Functionally, you either move through a space analogous to conventional space and are able to interact with it to an extent depending on the setting's lore, or you effectively use a wormhole to teleport.It doesn't really matter which buzzwords you use to dress it up, it's one of the two.

 

The only thing not accounted for is the wormhole/hyperspace jump which has a measurable travel time. Star Wars and Babylon 5 are good examples here. I honestly think Bethesda missed a trick by making the Grav Drive instant, but it is what it is. In any event, traveling through a hyperspace completely separate from our spacetime still doesn't help us bump into unexpected black holes, to once again bring the discussion back to the original point.

[Miauzi]

1 hour ago, DocClox said:

 

Ja. Und sowohl der Warp-Antrieb als auch der erzeugte Wurmloch-Ansatz nutzen den „Hyperraum“. Wie hilft uns das?

 

Funktionell bewegt man sich entweder durch einen Raum, der dem konventionellen Raum ähnelt, und ist in der Lage, mit ihm in einem Ausmaß zu interagieren, das von der Überlieferung des Schauplatzes abhängt, oder man nutzt effektiv ein Wurmloch, um sich zu teleportieren. Dabei spielt es keine Rolle, welche Schlagworte man verwendet, um es zu kleiden oben, es ist eines von beiden.

 

Das Einzige, was nicht berücksichtigt wurde, ist der Wurmloch-/Hyperraumsprung, der eine messbare Reisezeit hat. Star Wars und Babylon 5 sind hier gute Beispiele. Ich glaube ehrlich gesagt, dass Bethesda einen Trick verpasst hat, indem sie den Grav Drive sofort aktiviert hat, aber es ist, was es ist. Auf jeden Fall hilft uns die Reise durch einen von unserer Raumzeit völlig getrennten Hyperraum immer noch nicht, auf unerwartete Schwarze Löcher zu stoßen, um die Diskussion noch einmal auf den ursprünglichen Punkt zurückzubringen.

 

Even simple spaceships obviously have grav sensors - to "measure" star systems with their planets and moons over a distance of about 30 light years - a stealth black hole (which has at least several times the mass of our sun) should not be able to hide

And the "Constellation" space station can locate small grav distortions over almost 100 light years!

Well then, have fun writing a story or quest plot - which lets a black hole appear quite unexpectedly.

[DocClox]

33 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

Even simple spaceships obviously have grav sensors - to "measure" star systems with their planets and moons over a distance of about 30 light years - a stealth black hole (which has at least several times the mass of our sun) should not be able to hide

 

Exactly my point!

 

33 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

Well then, have fun writing a story or quest plot - which lets a black hole appear quite unexpectedly.

 

I'm not the one who wants this.

[Mr. Otaku]

On 6/28/2024 at 12:54 PM, Miauzi said:

as I have already written - quasars are the cores of active galaxies ... and the core of our Milky Way is far from being a quasar

Black holes ... well, there are "stellar" black holes - that is, the corpses of stars with more than three times the mass of today's sun ... and they will be quite numerous

so one or more stellar black holes can easily exist in the tiny star area that the game world of "Starfield" encompasses ... either as a solo system (which would then be the starting point for a "misjump") or as a companion in a multiple system (this is how many currently known black holes were discovered - through the visible transfer of matter from the visible partner star)

However, neutron stars are much more dangerous - especially "pulsars" or even "magnetars" - their output of electromagnetic radiation destroys all ship electronics ... and they are much more common

 

The point i was making is that the area of space that Starfield takes place in isn't big enough to consistently have those massive cosmic objects. They could've added one black hole at the far edge of the star map sure, but it looks like it wasn't part of their vision. In Starfield a ship generally can't gravjump more than 30 lightyears at a time so suddenly misjumping in front of a blackhole when there aren't any nearby would be a narrative inconsistency by itself.

 

Now personally i would've much preferred if the whole Starborn thing was tied to black holes and the secret within them, like maybe being "beacons" to the unity and only the Starborn can go in and out of them or something, at least that'd be my approach if i wrote the lore but that's neither here nor there.

 

On 6/27/2024 at 11:56 AM, Kraven12 said:

More reason I hate this old engine. Too many limitations. 

 

It's not an engine limitation tho. One of the biggest complaints against Starfield (which i don't really agree with, not the way it's usually argued anyway) is that the map is "too big" so it feels shallower than it actually is and that they should've focused on one system with few planets (again, don't agree with it at all) so now imagine how a 1:1 procedural recreation of the galaxy would be received by the same people. Hell even 1% of the galaxy would be "too big" because that's a bit over 1000 light years compared to Starfield's 100(?).

 

Personally i think they should've gone that big and said fuck it we're adding all kinds of cosmic stuff to blow you away but they went for a more "realistic" tone of still keeping these things far from humanity on a technical scale (which clashes super hard with the whole Starborn thing but this isn't a Starfield criticisms thread so i won't rehash all that here, there are threads for that already.