The Bridge (AAF to NAF)

[Allnarta]

3 hours ago, Blaze69 said:

But I guess actually putting time and work into mod development is hard, mmkay. Easier to just fight tooth and nail to keep a monopoly so people will throw money at  Patreon for doing nothing, like every other scam porn game on F95Zone or whatever. 🙃

 

I sign under every word. AAF is still so underdeveloped compared to even Oblivion, 2006 game framework, that it's not even funny.

[dagobaking]

13 minutes ago, Dlinny_Lag said:

 

Bridge is not a modification of the original mod.

 

Haha. Yes it is! The diff I posted was accurate. His mod includes modified versions of my files.

[vaultbait]

15 minutes ago, Dlinny_Lag said:

Bridge is not a modification of the original mod

 

Including a modified copy of a file from another mod is still a modification of that mod. You don't have to include all the files from another mod to modify it.

[dagobaking]

8 minutes ago, Dlinny_Lag said:

You proved my point of view about you a long time ago %)

You ignoring the message and interpret a part of the message in a way that comfort for you.

Kicking out unwanted information... how mature %)

 

Go to google, please. Find all other exclusions, if you can't find them here. Maybe google can help you in search routines.

Anyway, I will help you a bit:

one

two

 

 

Your arguments are just circular. Like I said. You pretend that I don't address your points and just throw out some other random google searches.

 

Its exactly like I said, you lose an argument then you google for something else to write. It's just a waste of time and demonstrates nothing accurate.

 

Your first link is just some specific case that is not relevant to what NAF and Bridge do. The second link is not an exclusion either. It's a legal concept. One that I myself had to reveal to you guys to demonstrate that literal code is not the only form of copyright violation. NAF copies the expression of my work. Not just the idea. You can see that literally in the authors own description of what it does. No further "proof" is needed beyond that for a reasonably objective person. But, more proof beyond that does exist. Do not worry about that.

 

3 minutes ago, Allnarta said:

 

I sign under every word. AAF is still so underdeveloped compared to even Oblivion, 2006 game framework, that it's not even funny.

 

I don't expect (or really care) that AAF isnt for everyone. I've had tons of great support and encouragement over the years and Im happy to keep it going for those that do like it.

 

The solution is to work on something you do like. Not to blame me for not reading your mind.

[nodtrial]

I'm asking everyone who is trying to discuss with Dagoba and his guards about his rights. Please stop doing this. Let him once again express everything he wants and go about his business. It's useless to prove anything. There is no need for unnecessary pathos around all this. I am sure the administration will make an adequate and informed decision without our further participation. As I told - I am opened to explain any part of written script. He deliberately shifts the focus from discussing the mod and the advantages that NAF gives to something else that he needs. Don't fall for this provocation.
 

The best you can do is write about your experience of playing with this mod and NAF.

Edited March 16 by nodtrial

[Ashal]

40 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

 

Hello Ashal.

 

Just to follow up on this. My source confirmed that the diff file did in fact come from the authors source file. So, I was not inaccurate or misleading in any way. He copied my file, edited it and is now calling it his own work.

 

He posted this mod on Nexus with the source code included. And it has now gone into moderation review there because of the copying issue. That's why he was being coy about admitting that he posted this to Nexus too.

 

He simply removed his own source files and reposted it here. And when the issue came up last night he sat there and let you believe I was just making things up. When he really knew I was correct.

 

I'm not sure what more is needed to remove this mod?

 

1) Its taken down (at least currently) at Nexus.

2) The author misled you directly in this thread.

3) The diff is correct. He started with my source file and modified it slightly. The best he can do now is try to superficially change how it looks. But, the fact will remain that it is derived from my work.

 

 

The picture is not evidence of anything, real or not. It shows literally no code, just 3 variables being declared. And a random person on Nexus saying "Trust me" doesn't make it reliable.

 

And as I said before, a bridge mod is NOT breaking any rules, regardless. It is not replacing your mod, it's a direct requirement, and it's not trying to pass off any of your code as their own.

 

 

Quote

4) The entire purpose of the mod is to route calls to an allowed mod to one that is not allowed. If that isn't a rule violation, I don't see how it doesn't logically suggest that the rules are contradictory and need to be updated.

 

We allow mods that require mods not on the site all the time. AAF isn't even hosted on LL, it's on a different site of your own, requiring a different login. And NAF only isn't because you want to complain endlessly about XML structures somehow being proprietary, which I still disagree with.

 

Have some faith in the people using your mod and let the people who want to use something different use something different. AAF isn't going to cease to exist just because a bridge to another mod exists. While SexLab was still in active development, a bridge mod to Osex/Ostim was made doing the same thing, did SexLab cease to exist as a result? No.

[Zagrus the old]

Man.... reading post about NAF and AAF is like watching a Turkish Telenovela, so much drama, i love it!.  keep working your magic nodtrial! also i hope the mod goes back to nexus soon

[kziitd]

38 minutes ago, Dlinny_Lag said:

 

The quote from AAF download page:

Bridge is not a modification of the original mod. And definitely not a replacement %)

It provides same API as the original mod. And I explained how it appear that code is partially same. And how merge doctrine applicable here. I understand that it is a complex area and it is hard to explain in a way to be easily understandable by other people. Maybe I'm not clear enough.

 

Interesting metaphor, I suppose you are trying to explain "replacement" idea. But again, Bridge is not a replacement of AAF.

It is not intended for impersonation, why not use the mod name "bridge" to directly create API files with different paths and names?

AAF is an animation playback mod, and the AAF API is the credential for AAF to play animations for all AAF XXX mods.

Your name is AAF API. I will go to your path/home and tell those relatives/mods, my name is AAF API.

If you refuse, I say, I have no intention of replacing you. I just love this place and enjoy everything that was originally prepared for you/you will do.

[dagobaking]

5 minutes ago, Ashal said:

 

 

The picture is not evidence of anything, real or not. It shows literally no code, just 3 variables being declared. And a random person on Nexus saying "Trust me" doesn't make it reliable.

 

And as I said before, a bridge mod is NOT breaking any rules, regardless. It is not replacing your mod, it's a direct requirement, and it's not trying to pass off any of your code as their own.

 

 

 

We allow mods that require mods not on the site all the time. AAF isn't even hosted on LL, it's on a different site of your own, requiring a different login. And NAF only isn't because you want to complain endlessly about XML structures somehow being proprietary, which I still disagree with.

 

Have some faith in the people using your mod and let the people who want to use something different use something different. AAF isn't going to cease to exist just because a bridge to another mod exists. While SexLab was still in active development, a bridge mod to Osex/Ostim was made doing the same thing, did SexLab cease to exist as a result? No.

 

Ashal. We still have the file. He copied the whole thing and edited it from there. (see attached) If we can copy peoples work without permission and it's ok because we make a few edits, that is a sea change in how things have worked.

 

It 100% IS passing off my code as his own. It literally has to copy my work in order to function correctly.

[nodtrial]

7 minutes ago, Zagrus the old said:

Man.... reading post about NAF and AAF is like watching a Turkish Telenovela, so much drama, i love it!.  keep working your magic nodtrial! also i hope the mod goes back to nexus soon

Thank you! I'm glad you're like it (not dramatic part). 

[kziitd]

11 minutes ago, Ashal said:

 

 

The picture is not evidence of anything, real or not. It shows literally no code, just 3 variables being declared. And a random person on Nexus saying "Trust me" doesn't make it reliable.

 

And as I said before, a bridge mod is NOT breaking any rules, regardless. It is not replacing your mod, it's a direct requirement, and it's not trying to pass off any of your code as their own.

 

 

 

We allow mods that require mods not on the site all the time. AAF isn't even hosted on LL, it's on a different site of your own, requiring a different login. And NAF only isn't because you want to complain endlessly about XML structures somehow being proprietary, which I still disagree with.

 

Have some faith in the people using your mod and let the people who want to use something different use something different. AAF isn't going to cease to exist just because a bridge to another mod exists. While SexLab was still in active development, a bridge mod to Osex/Ostim was made doing the same thing, did SexLab cease to exist as a result? No.

I can modify the original files in sexlab that Skyrim mod uses to determine/associate with playing animations using sexlab without your permission. After setting them to the same path/name, users can overwrite your original files through installation.

And then declare the mod as "Bridge Jr "? 😲

[dagobaking]

5 minutes ago, Dlinny_Lag said:

Show it. Just "yes" is not enough.

 

Screenshot with diff of files you(!) compared. How people can get the same result?

 

It still need to be proven. You always ignore the part of proving, right? %)

 

I can't, sorry. I can't just see that you are blaming people without any hard evidence.

 

I did show it. People can no longer get the same result because the guy removed the source file and was taken down on Nexus.

 

There is already enough proof for objective people available. I'm not going to share additional proof publicly that I would use in court. I'm waiting for snapdragon to take up your solid case. Any time!

[Douie]

Seems like mods got scared of losing Dagoba's support so they gave in and did his bidding.

[georgechalkias]

I already made a basic comparison video between the two mods. They are clearly different. It's up to the community to decide which to use and which is actually better. It's all preference. 

 

Sad to see that NAF has been taken down only because of Dago's insistence and not because it's actually 'illegal', a matter that has been disproved by a few users here who are well-versed with US laws. Nexus already said that NAF is a legit product and nothing has been stolen, it's time for LL to do their part. 

 

This diversion needs to be stopped, it only sets back the FO4 NSFW community.

Just my take, thank you.

[nodtrial]

24 minutes ago, georgechalkias said:

I already made a basic comparison video between the two mods.

Thank you for this! And for repeat!

[dagobaking]

31 minutes ago, georgechalkias said:

I already made a basic comparison video between the two mods. They are clearly different. It's up to the community to decide which to use and which is actually better. It's all preference. 

 

Sad to see that NAF has been taken down only because of Dago's insistence and not because it's actually 'illegal', a matter that has been disproved by a few users here who are well-versed with US laws. Nexus already said that NAF is a legit product and nothing has been stolen, it's time for LL to do their part. 

 

This diversion needs to be stopped, it only sets back the FO4 NSFW community.

Just my take, thank you.

 

Those people didn't prove shit about NAF's legality. lol

 

If you have such a strong legal case, bring it on. Lets put it in front of the inexpensive copyright court recently set up just for this type of dispute. I am all for it. Where is snapdragon?

[Mahuhu]

Nodtrial, fist-bump. Thanks for the great work. Trying to drain a shit-soup, not easy. Looking forward to wherever this mod lands. LL used to be less trolly. Will be a big bump in Fallout 4 franchise, once Amazon IP goes live. Stay on it. Fix this shit.

Edited March 16 by Mahuhu

[nodtrial]

11 minutes ago, Mahuhu said:

Nodtrial, fist-bump. Thanks for the great work. Trying to drain a shit-soup, not easy. Looking forward to wherever this mod lands. LL used to be less trolly. Will be a big bump in Fallout 4 franchise, once Amazon IP goes live. Stay on it. Fix this shit.

 Thank you too, for your callback!

[Douie]

Thank you Nodtrial for your mod. I think your mod is a really good thing for the modding community. I hope that one day, everyone will work together to better the modding scene as a whole.

[Nuka Cherry]

>> XML structures somehow being proprietary

 

They are only copyright-able if they contain original content in both US and UK cases (where the Nexus is owned and located). The XML structure is not copyright-able as shown in a recent high court ruling :“XML is a standard computer language for defining and representing structured data in a way which is partly self-describing using natural language terminology”.

 

The content then has to be creative and original as well.

[nodtrial]

47 minutes ago, Douie said:

Thank you Nodtrial for your mod. I think your mod is a really good thing for the modding community. I hope that one day, everyone will work together to better the modding scene as a whole.

Thank you for your words! I'm glad you have good experience with NAF and this mod. Even though this is a small part, I still tried hard to do it good.

Edited March 16 by nodtrial

[Pamatronic]

7 hours ago, Dlinny_Lag said:

I've answered these questions in my post.

Maybe answer is not detailed enough to be fully clear. I will try to clarify details:

3rd party mods expect functions with certain name in the script with certain name. It is the part of Papyrus scripting system, not Dagoba's "work". Dagoba had  to follow scripting engine rules with no choice, so it is not a creative work that can be protected by copyright lows.

So path and name of pex file must be identical to AAF's one. Not because of infringement, but because of functions calling system provided by Papyrus engine.

If there are any changes in AAF scripts that make Bridge invalid, then 3rd party mods become invalid as well. Maybe not all of them, depends on certain changes.

This might not be clear to everyone due to the chopped machine translation, so lemme give it a go with explaining.

The entire point of this Bridge is to reroute api calls from mods which depend on AFF, to NAF, and therefore its just technically impossible to not use large parts of of the original AFF api. 3rd party mods expect the api file to have this specific name and path, and also expect certain functions within this api. without these prerequisites, the mods would just not work.
So, as Dlinny rightfully asserted, this isn't a derivative work or even fucking copyright infringement, is simply a technical necessity.

 

 

But if we are being completely honest here, the entire argument isn't even about copyright, its about Gatekeeping and hurt egos.
I´m not gonna comment on the pros and cons of AFF/NAF, but to me it seems that a certain someone is absolutely terrified of the prospect to have another framework take market share away from him, which really is just petty.

 

 

The existence of NAF or this bridge doesn't take away from AFF, it simply gives users more choice and is thereby a net-positive for the community.

[dagobaking]

17 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

This might not be clear to everyone due to the chopped machine translation, so lemme give it a go with explaining.

The entire point of this Bridge is to reroute api calls from mods which depend on AFF, to NAF, and therefore its just technically impossible to not use large parts of of the original AFF api. 3rd party mods expect the api file to have this specific name and path, and also expect certain functions within this api. without these prerequisites, the mods would just not work.
So, as Dlinny rightfully asserted, this isn't a derivative work or even fucking copyright infringement, is simply a technical necessity.

 

 

But if we are being completely honest here, the entire argument isn't even about copyright, its about Gatekeeping and hurt egos.
I´m not gonna comment on the pros and cons of AFF/NAF, but to me it seems that a certain someone is absolutely terrified of the prospect to have another framework take market share away from him, which really is just petty.

 

 

The existence of NAF or this bridge doesn't take away from AFF, it simply gives users more choice and is thereby a net-positive for the community.

 

lol

 

There is no "technical necessity" exception that allows copying. Copying is copying. Full stop.

 

Just because its necessary to copy to do something you feel like doing doesn't mean you have a right to do it.

[dagobaking]

45 minutes ago, Nuka Cherry said:

>> XML structures somehow being proprietary

 

They are only copyright-able if they contain original content in both US and UK cases (where the Nexus is owned and located). The XML structure is not copyright-able as shown in a recent high court ruling :“XML is a standard computer language for defining and representing structured data in a way which is partly self-describing using natural language terminology”.

 

The content then has to be creative and original as well.

 

A) I don't live in the UK. I'm pretty sure that snapdragon doesnt either.

B) Your own link undermines the argument you try to make. The AAF XML that NAF copies DOES include content (ie. what valid entries in the structure can be). Your own article points out that there is precedent for that being considered copyrightable work.

C) The copying goes beyond the XML structure. It goes into copying how the application responds to the structure as well. It copies aspects of AAF from top to bottom.

[Pamatronic]

7 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

Copying is copying

copying a necessity, yes.

 

8 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

Just because its necessary to copy to do something you feel like doing doesn't mean you have a right to do it.

Ok then, lets try something different. Assuming you wanted to write a mod with the same functionality as this bridge, i.e something which reroutes api calls intended for AFF, to NAF.
How would you do this without having file called AFF_API.pex and retaining at the very least the function declarations?

 

I'm genuinely curios about this, because a solution would open up a lot of new possibilities for mod intercompatibility in general.