NAF still Banned (on LL) ?

[Lapsio]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:37 PM, Dassu said:

Looks very good, I had no idea there was such a mod available.

 

For me AAF works pretty well. Issues I noticed so far:

• If high heels are used then animations will misalign
• Adjustment keys, such as rotation, will misalign the actors
• Fade in black delays
• No MCM
• OCPBC does not work well with animations. Boobs should jiggle way more. I even tried the softest setting possible but no luck.
• Some animations lack sound and Custom Moans is not the easiest thing to configure

If NAF is everything it promises to be then I would definitely make the switch.

 

Btw, why was it banned?

OCPBC works for you in AAF at all? For me it just plain doesn't. Only in-game OCPBC works for me. AAF anims have static bounciness baked in I guess.

[Ashal]

NAF isn't and never was banned.

 

It was just requested that its backward-compatible functions with AAF be removed because AAF's author didn't approve of their code being copied, which is their right to object to. Rather than making that change, NAF's author decided to take the mod elsewhere, as is also their right.

 

It's just unfortunate the authors or AAF and NAF couldn't come to an agreement as the modding scene is worse off as a result.

 

It might just sound like semantics when it comes whether it's "banned" or not.  But we as a site, have absolutely nothing against NAF or its author, it was their choice.

[kziitd]

For me, the interesting part is the hostility that many people have towards AAF.

There is a proverb in the place where I live: after dinner, start scolding the cook.

If your hostility comes from "AAF preventing NAF from existing in LL".

The administrator has provided an explanation.

But I think you might think it's just mutual assistance within the gang, right?

I see everything expressing politics.

Don't waste your time.

If you as users, hope for the healthy development of the module community, then this post is of no use at all.

----

As an animator, have I also been considered a member of the AAF gang after expressing this feeling??

Edited December 18, 2023 by kziitd

[Snapdragon_]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:47 AM, Ashal said:

NAF isn't and never was banned.

 

It was just requested that its backward-compatible functions with AAF be removed because AAF's author didn't approve of their code being copied, which is their right to object to. Rather than making that change, NAF's author decided to take the mod elsewhere, as is also their right.

 

It's just unfortunate the authors or AAF and NAF couldn't come to an agreement as the modding scene is worse off as a result.

 

It might just sound like semantics when it comes whether it's "banned" or not.  But we as a site, have absolutely nothing against NAF or its author, it was their choice.

 

Could you specify what the 'backward-compatible functions' are? Specific functions were never pointed out in the message I was sent, it just pointed out XML compatibility & Papyrus API similarities. (One API function was mentioned, but that didn't seem to be what LL primarily took issue with.)

 

I discussed these issues with Nexus staff when they contacted me about the report from the AAF author, and that ended amicably. If you indeed have nothing against me or NAF, I'd be happy to discuss the matter here or in PMs. I'm not an unreasonable person, although it initially seemed to me that LL condemned NAF in its entirety.

[gegging]

I hope functions related to overlays gets supported in NAF soon.

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

I'd argue the amount of entitlement to author works and the consistent contentification of modding on display here is what's killing the modding scene more than anything else tbh. Why bother being an author in a community that treats ya as less than human and demands MORE then treats you like shit when you ask for the barest minimum back. 

 

Y'all forget that Dagoba develops and maintains AAF entirely free (And has for years) with NO OBLIGATION to pay for any feature of AAF. Not only that, Dago has bent BACKWARDS to make sure support for sex mod content is seamless and given priority despite his numerous assertations that AAF was to be a neutral animation/posing framework and that he didn't just want to make a sex framework.

The only thing dago has asked and had asked for in this situation was respect for his work. Snapdragon used work they didn't have permission to and lifted code they had no right to use for the AAF compatibility aspect in NAF. Instead of showing ANY respect to Dago or Dago's work, this community has had the biggest temper tantrum over it because how dare dago demand respect for the work he has made and has bent over backwards to give support to that went far outside of his vision for his own mod. 

I said this before when asked about why BT dropped off the Nexus and I stand on it now. This idea that you are owed other people's work and if they don't give it to you or ask you to respect them they're an asshole who needs to be taken down is gonna alienate a lot of good talent out of the community and y'all should have some introspection and growth to better the community, because this current attitude is not gonna make anyone want to stick around and if we're being for real will probably kill Starfield's scene before it even begins. 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by TheBottomhoodofSteel

[gegging]

2 hours ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Snapdragon used work they didn't have permission to and lifted code they had no right to use for the AAF compatibility aspect in NAF.

so which code was lifted.

2 hours ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

kill Starfield's scene before it even begins. 

I'd be more surprised if anybody sticks around after Bethesda releases creation kit for starfield.

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

12 hours ago, gegging said:

so which code was lifted.

If you're gonna play sealion in the face of Ashal themselves saying the issue at hand, please feel free to not even attempt to engage me. I have 0 interest in dealing with people who choose to play stupid and act like Snapdragon's a victim here. 

[katrina.balanchuk]

On 12/17/2023 at 8:52 PM, kziitd said:

For me, the interesting part is the hostility that many people have towards AAF.

There is a proverb in the place where I live: after dinner, start scolding the cook.

If your hostility comes from "AAF preventing NAF from existing in LL".

The administrator has provided an explanation.

But I think you might think it's just mutual assistance within the gang, right?

I see everything expressing politics.

Don't waste your time.

If you as users, hope for the healthy development of the module community, then this post is of no use at all.

----

As an animator, have I also been considered a member of the AAF gang after expressing this feeling??

I have no beef with anyone and on the contrary and grateful for all the AAF that is working wonderfully on my computer

[gegging]

6 hours ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

If you're gonna play sealion in the face of Ashal themselves saying the issue at hand,

Which Snapdragon himself also directly asked "what and where" to Ashal in the thread.

It could be as banal as a read(file) that not even dago wrote for all I care.

I don't give a shit about taking sides especially when it boils down to "you stole from me, not telling you what" "I didn't steal, not telling you how"

[DarkSinfulMage]

Can we just focus on porting the good mods to NAF - hopefully with a little less jank and refined features? It's a good time to do it.

[Olmech]

Hate it seems to have become a war. Have enjoyed both mod authors work. Shame a meet in the middle workaround couldnt be found. 

 

If Henry Ford had been able to squash his competition...he would have and we would probably still be driving Model Ts. All black at that.

[MrGrey]

Is there a "how to make animations" guide for AAF or NAF?

NAF seems to use familiar tools i.e. uses the game not Blender or some multi-hundred dollar 3dsMax

[alexbobp]

So I'm a bit of an outsider to this but wanted to give my perspective as a software developer.  Hopefully it won't offend anyone.

 

Any developer, modder included, has the right to protect their work.  It's no fair if someone takes your work and gets the glory.  That said...  game modding communities also fundamentally live by a certain understanding of the concept of Fair Use.  After all, game modding fundamentally almost always involves redistributing snippets of the original game's code...  perhaps you replace some function, and need to reproduce the work it was doing before, etc.  I won't get into details, but game companies can and sometimes do go after modding with the technically true claim that mods include some of their code, which in most games (any without a robust mod framework with content/game separation) is unavoidable.

So we rely on fair use, and the fact that we can show that we are making a good faith effort to only copy what is needed for compatibility and to exercise our right to modify our own copies of software for our own use.  These arguments do hold up in court, luckily.

 

Now this isn't a court.  LL is a private forum with its own moderation standards, and I do understand the importance of keeping established developers from feeling like their work will be abused here.  Not really agreeing with the moderator decision, but seeing the explanation, it doesn't seem like power abuse.

 

The biggest detail I don't know is whether the AAF dev made any effort to credit the NAF dev for the copied code, and preceding work in general.  That's just good manners as well as copyright law, and very reasonable to demand in a community like this.

 

But if the NAF developer's fundamental line in the sand is the compatibility itself, and wanting to ensure that a certain mod ecosystem remains under their control, without an alternative mod being compatible...  well...  eugh.  That's super bad for the whole community, and if there is the appearance that this might be the case, then it's understandable why people are upset.  We should make sure all the hard working mod devs feel appreciated...  including if their work was foundational but later maybe gets replaced by newer work...  they are still important to us.  But I do think it's a concern if ego-related factors might hold back the state of the actual modded game experience we're wanting.

 

Edit: At risk of being a sealion myself...  I do want to acknowledge, while I don't know the situation, it sounds like the maybe AAF developer themselves sabotaged the situation by behaving badly.  Still a shame.

Edited December 27, 2023 by alexbobp

[MrGrey]

Terms of use we all agreed to was that Bethesda owns all mods, and they allow us to use their IP and tools to make mods. I'm not a lawyer, I just had 1 semester of business law 100 years ago.  But as an engineer, I understand this concept. I sold my ideas to the company which owned everything. I can't claim it as my own e.g. the patent belongs to the corporation and I sold it for $$.

 

But anyway... Just looking for a how to guide to make animations.

[urabi]

NAF it is or should be - and everyone here knows it.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by urabi

[Snapdragon_]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:34 PM, Olmech said:

Hate it seems to have become a war. Have enjoyed both mod authors work. Shame a meet in the middle workaround couldnt be found. 

 

If Henry Ford had been able to squash his competition...he would have and we would probably still be driving Model Ts. All black at that.

 

 

[dagobaking]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:58 PM, Snapdragon_ said:

Could you specify what the 'backward-compatible functions' are? Specific functions were never pointed out in the message I was sent, it just pointed out XML compatibility & Papyrus API similarities. (One API function was mentioned, but that didn't seem to be what LL primarily took issue with.)

 

I discussed these issues with Nexus staff when they contacted me about the report from the AAF author, and that ended amicably. If you indeed have nothing against me or NAF, I'd be happy to discuss the matter here or in PMs. I'm not an unreasonable person, although it initially seemed to me that LL condemned NAF in its entirety.

 

What a bunch of nonsense this is.

 

The aspects of AAF that NAF copies has been made very clear. It is made clear by this very simple point: NAF is unusable as a product without referring to the AAF documentation.

 

You keep trying to hide behind this idea that NAF is merely "XML Compatible". That is incredibly dishonest and misleading. NAF is designed to work specifically with XML files IN A STRUCTURE THAT IS PROPRIETARY TO AND PART OF AAF. There is no way to utilize "the same files" without copying the original work I created.

 

NAF does have some unique features (mostly added after the initial build). But, the core of the application is simply a copy of AAF in a different language. It is the equivalent of translating The Hunger Games into French and then claiming you are the author. Copyright law clearly identifies that as infringement.

 

Which brings up Nexus. There was nothing amicable about it. I sent a DMCA Takedown Notice to Nexus and they refused to follow DMCA procedures. Instead of following that actual law (which they imply following on their site), they wanted to act as judge and jury as if intellectual property law was something that they have qualifications to evaluate.

 

DMCA law is designed to remove unqualified middle-men from the equation. So that these kinds of disputes can be resolved by experts in the correct place: court. That Nexus wants to play games with DMCA is a stain on their professionalism and will most likely eventually come back to bite them as a business.

 

---

 

Furthermore, its dishonest to post here publicly as if you, the LL staff and I did not have a whole conversation about this. Remember, that was your idea. And they were trying to evaluate the situation. As soon as it looked like it was going against you, you threw a huge tantrum, called me a bunch of names and then stated that you would remove the AAF aspects I was complaining about.

 

Instead of following through with your word, you left those things in, posted the mod anywhere else you could and went around telling people that I was the one who was reacting "immaturely."

 

One of the complaints you made during your tantrum was that us going to court would be too expensive. However, there is a "small-claims" copyright court we can go to to resolve this. It costs a very small amount and is designed exactly for this kind of dispute. I propose that we utilize that court to efficiently resolve this issue. Please let me know and we can work together to arrange for it.

 

On 12/23/2023 at 10:11 PM, gegging said:

Which Snapdragon himself also directly asked "what and where" to Ashal in the thread.

It could be as banal as a read(file) that not even dago wrote for all I care.

I don't give a shit about taking sides especially when it boils down to "you stole from me, not telling you what" "I didn't steal, not telling you how"

 

See above for clarification about what was stolen. This information has been clarified since the very beginning of the issue.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 9:34 AM, Olmech said:

Hate it seems to have become a war. Have enjoyed both mod authors work. Shame a meet in the middle workaround couldnt be found.

 

There is only one side of this that decided to forego even trying to reach a middle ground or cooperate. As I pointed out in the very beginning, my door was open for collaboration and SnapDragon was always treated well by myself and others on the AAF team.

 

On 12/27/2023 at 4:52 AM, alexbobp said:

Edit: At risk of being a sealion myself...  I do want to acknowledge, while I don't know the situation, it sounds like the maybe AAF developer themselves sabotaged the situation by behaving badly.  Still a shame.

 

I think you got the mods mixed up. AAF was around first. NAF is the mod that has copied AAF.

 

Fair Use doesn't apply in this case as the parts copied are unique and not the only way to do something. Had SnapDragon put in the work, he could have devised his own API and the XML structure would be different.

Edited January 5 by dagobaking

[gegging]

@dagobaking Are you going to take action against the Starfield version of NAF or is Nexus a lost cause?

[dagobaking]

Just now, gegging said:

@dagobaking Are you going to take action against the Starfield version of NAF or is Nexus a lost cause?

 

It depends on whether or not the Starfield NAF is also infringing on my work. I am waiting for the CK to come out before I even play Starfield. So, I haven't had a chance to look at the details.

[shittyguy]

17 hours ago, dagobaking said:

 

What a bunch of nonsense this is.

 

The aspects of AAF that NAF copies has been made very clear. It is made clear by this very simple point: NAF is unusable as a product without referring to the AAF documentation.

 

You keep trying to hide behind this idea that NAF is merely "XML Compatible". That is incredibly dishonest and misleading. NAF is designed to work specifically with XML files IN A STRUCTURE THAT IS PROPRIETARY TO AND PART OF AAF. There is no way to utilize "the same files" without copying the original work I created.

 

NAF does have some unique features (mostly added after the initial build). But, the core of the application is simply a copy of AAF in a different language. It is the equivalent of translating The Hunger Games into French and then claiming you are the author. Copyright law clearly identifies that as infringement.

 

Which brings up Nexus. There was nothing amicable about it. I sent a DMCA Takedown Notice to Nexus and they refused to follow DMCA procedures. Instead of following that actual law (which they imply following on their site), they wanted to act as judge and jury as if intellectual property law was something that they have qualifications to evaluate.

 

DMCA law is designed to remove unqualified middle-men from the equation. So that these kinds of disputes can be resolved by experts in the correct place: court. That Nexus wants to play games with DMCA is a stain on their professionalism and will most likely eventually come back to bite them as a business.

 

---

 

Furthermore, its dishonest to post here publicly as if you, the LL staff and I did not have a whole conversation about this. Remember, that was your idea. And they were trying to evaluate the situation. As soon as it looked like it was going against you, you threw a huge tantrum, called me a bunch of names and then stated that you would remove the AAF aspects I was complaining about.

 

Instead of following through with your word, you left those things in, posted the mod anywhere else you could and went around telling people that I was the one who was reacting "immaturely."

 

One of the complaints you made during your tantrum was that us going to court would be too expensive. However, there is a "small-claims" copyright court we can go to to resolve this. It costs a very small amount and is designed exactly for this kind of dispute. I propose that we utilize that court to efficiently resolve this issue. Please let me know and we can work together to arrange for it.

 

 

See above for clarification about what was stolen. This information has been clarified since the very beginning of the issue.

 

 

There is only one side of this that decided to forego even trying to reach a middle ground or cooperate. As I pointed out in the very beginning, my door was open for collaboration and SnapDragon was always treated well by myself and others on the AAF team.

 

 

I think you got the mods mixed up. AAF was around first. NAF is the mod that has copied AAF.

 

Fair Use doesn't apply in this case as the parts copied are unique and not the only way to do something. Had SnapDragon put in the work, he could have devised his own API and the XML structure would be different.

dude show some proof for once that has a side by side of your code vs naf code because i have not seen you post hard proof about copied code.
aaf and naf both work way different from each other, also if the code you show is known a base modding code which all mods start from your going to be in the wrong and people on nexus have told you, you don't own the right to xml type mod.
 

Edited January 5 by shittyguy

[davisev5225]

Additionally, per Google v Oracle, while an API may or may not be copyrightable (the Supreme Court made assumptions in their ruling, going so far as to explicitly state they were assumptions, but declined to actually rule definitively whether a public-facing API can be copyrighted or not...), using common elements and interpreting it fall squarely under fair use, so there is no case here.  NAF is not infringment since it didn't lift any actual code from AAF (which itself is nearly impossible since someone keeps the source code under wraps...).

 

Interpreting a data structure outside of the functional code is considered reverse engineering, and was established all the way back in 1992 in the Atari v Nintendo case as perfectly legal.  The AAF team does not have a case, which is why Nexus told them to pound sand with their fraudulent DMCA attempt.

 

https://techcrunch.com/2021/07/01/months-later-were-still-making-sense-of-the-supreme-courts-api-copyright-ruling/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Games_Corp._v._Nintendo_of_America_Inc.

Edited January 5 by davisev5225

[Yannis Valentine]

inb4 topic locked lol

[mrwiseman]

So, the problem is using a specific XML structure not the code used to parse the damn thing ?
If Snapdragon create is own format, open-source it with and ship it with a converter for the legacy "upper duper" proprietary format, that would be acceptable ?
By the way, i still don't understand closed source in a community project. I get wanting to protect his works, specially if you wish to make money.
But this is modding working with lookmenu hooking with the script extender ( not available on console, no Bethesda store ) and you need to add S.A.M to align things, all of this pioneer by Four-Play.
Proprietary/closed format complicated things ? Havok, Scaleform ... 
Imagine someone fork Lookmenu, fix the bug after 1.6.18 and be shutdown by expired6978.
I know it is beside the point, but AAF, like FP, are Papyrus scripts and NAF is a full fledge FSE plugin ("easily" extendable with others functions, like physic animations ?) not the same beast, respect Snapdragon ;).
We should all worked to make FO4 modding a better experiences.

[davisev5225]

7 minutes ago, mrwiseman said:

So, the problem is using a specific XML structure not the code used to parse the damn thing ?

 

That seems to be a certain person's (legally-baseless) complaint, yes.

 

  

7 minutes ago, mrwiseman said:

If Snapdragon create is own format, open-source it with and ship it with a converter for the legacy "upper duper" proprietary format, that would be acceptable ?

 

Said person has already explicitly stated that they would bitch about any converter software.  They want everyone to have to recreate new animations and data files from scratch rather than use or convert the existing.  It's not about cooperation, it's about protecting their Patreon nest-egg and their malicious data collection on their own website.

Edited January 5 by davisev5225