A Consumer's Musings About Modding

[Gamer_Auto]

Hi. I'm a lurker that occasionally makes a post. I'm on the consumer end of modding. I have no knowledge of how the construction side works. And a recent modder departure from the Skyrim section has gotten me thinking about modding - both in relation to Lover'sLab and in general - because people like me were explicitly called out. None of this has any real rhyme or reason, it's just a collection of musings that I wanted to share.

 

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When I look for a mod, I tap into my very particular tastes. Naturally, that requires a mod's download page to properly advertise itself. A concise and to-the-point description that fills me in on what the mod offers, screenshots to show me what's on offer (because what a reader sees in their head doesn't always equate to the actual product), and - if there's a risk of spoilers - just enough of a tease that it gets me hooked enough to want to know more.
Naturally, you see plenty of this kind of thing on Nexus. But I've found that, on LL, for every mod page I personally find that lives up to that standard, there are at least two more that fall short in one or both ways. Often a mod will have no pics when it easily could, or the screenshots for something like a new player home will be lacking, or its description is next to nothing or literally nothing or mostly technical jargon (though that last one it rare and is mostly reserved for stuff that aims to act as both new content and a framework). Sometimes I don't even see any tags! Like, at the very least, have the courtesy of tagging your mod!
I know the joke is "No pics? I can't fap to this!", but I genuinely consider whether or not a mod is properly showing itself off before I get invested in it. And I'm sure someone will say "just download it, try it out, and uninstall if you don't like it". But that's the thing. Modding is, in essence, a free version of the gaming market. And demos have fallen out of favor, so it's up to descriptions, slideshows, and trailers to hook you. Modding is no different. I may not be wasting money on something if I don't like it, but there's still the time investment of downloading, installing, making sure things haven't broken, starting a file, and hunting down the content. In some cases, going in blind may take more time to determine if you don't like something, depending on how quickly you can set everything up. And for a casual like me, that would take a while. So having the download page effectively advertise itself to me removes most of that process.

 

Instructions
I come from the realm of Steam Modding. I'm spoiled by the one-click downloads and no requirements but the vanilla game and its DLC. I'm slowly getting used to Mod Organizer 2 and Nexus, and really appreciate Nexus' little "Requirement Reminder" popup. But what I really hate seeing is a lack of instructions in the event that there's more to it than just "download, install, and go", because I'm new to this world. If I were to avoid hyperbole, I'd estimate that around 75% of the content I see already assumes that you know what you're doing. In my honest opinion, that can come off as a little arrogant. It gives the vibe of "I don't have to explain anything to you", and that's just a huge turn-off; not only in terms of excitement, but also in terms of turning me off to the community at large. I'm not just a minor member of the community, I'm also (and probably more importantly) a potential consumer. Even the misinterpretation of an off-putting attitude can turn people away from something they might otherwise enjoy.
I don't expect a hyper-detailed step-by-step walkthrough in every dl page, but if that walkthrough exists elsewhere on the internet, I'd at least like to see a link back to it; I may have fifty or more other things I plan to download and install, and one botched google search will just get lost in the tabs.

Speaking of links, I rarely see properly detailed and linked mod requirements on LL, which is a major step down from Nexus. Alongside basic tagging (function (quest, player home, environment, etc), kink (bdsm, piss, gore, etc)) linking to required mods feels like it should be the most common of courtesies; even if you fully expect the audience to already have it.

 

"Competition"
In industry, monopolies are discouraged (and in some countries they're illegal) because perceived competition between two or more companies producing the same product is more often than not a net positive. The consumer gets freedom of choice, and the creators improve each other through perceived rivalry.

In my opinion, this should be true for modding as well; at least to an extent. The more versions of the same idea there are, then the more options the consumer has. Plus, two creators pulling from the same inspiration could come up with vastly different ideas. Take, for example, giving Skyrim a difficulty spike that forces the player to look for alternate means of travel and entry into cities. One modder could use Live Another Life to start you off as a master criminal with max notoriety, could use another mod to make guard/soldier patrols more frequent around cities, could up the number of guards patrolling the walls of a city. The other modder could also start with LAL and utilize similar guard increases, but could use the LL version Live a Deviant Life to make the player's character a runaway slave without any documentation of being authorized to be alone; maybe even have the player's race be a slave-race in Skyrim, adding another layer of possible detection as other slaves might see you and sound the alarm.

This is an extreme example, but it proves my point. Two similar yet different approaches, depending on what the player's into.

 

Modder Burn Out/Abandonware/Missing Requirements

This one starts the more hypothetical side of things, but I feel like it's an observation I should state anyway.
In Skyrim alone I've found tons of mods that have been abandoned, passed around like a hot potato, have a requirement that was straight up deleted for one reason or another (which is a discussion in and of itself). I fully understand that interests change, sometimes attention needs to be drawn elsewhere (like IRL responsibilities), and sometimes people could just throw in the towel thinking that some "competition beat them out". But I think that this is all just a symptom of a larger issue: I don't think Modding can be a one-man-job anymore.

Look on Steam, Nexus, and ModDB. Many of the most modified games now have mods that were made by multiple people; whether they were an organized team or not. Look at the mods Skywind and Skyblivion, Sim Settlements 2, or even the many reconstructions/total conversions for Star Wars: Empire at War - Forces of Corruption like Awakening of the Rebellion, Thrawn's Revenge, Republic at War, EaW Remake. All the big stuff is made by organized teams that work together on a common passion project. They're volunteer game devs. And IDK if this next assumption is true, but that may have changed consumer expectations.

I recognize that it may not be possible for groups to form on LL the same way they form over on Steam, Nexus, and MDB, but nobody will know unless it's been tried. And people here often collaborate already, whether they recognize it or not. Using someone else's assets as a foundation for your own mod, patching someone's mod for them because it's something they didn't have the skill/time/desire to do themselves, making a patch that connects two completely separate mods together, even the dreaded curators of modlists put in a lot of work to make sure that everything is stable for people like me. In my eyes, that's the making of a team, right there! It just requires the right combination with the right vibe to gather together and decide to make something. And if that idea is promoted and encouraged, it could only be a matter of time before we have LL mods that rival the games they're made for! This leads into my next musing.

 

What if?

Imagine, for example, a Skyrim SexLab mod with as much content, if not more content, than Skyrim itself; with fully realized storylines and mechanics that have been put through the drafting process. You could fight and _lose_ the Skyrim Civil War, with actual stories with multiple arcs based around being a PoW or slave to the other faction! Or the flipside, where you win as expected, but now there's something substantial to do afterwards as you round up stragglers, secure your holdings, and subjugate the civilians of the other side! Or an alternate start with it's own unique and complex stories disconnected from the vanilla narrative! The old Wartimes mod is a great example of the potential of this community to make something bigger than just the mechanics or just a glorified animation gallery or just a short quest chain that'll only take a couple hours to beat!
Going back to the Skyrim example, scanning through the SexLab Index and the Devious Devices equivalent, I see a lot of great ideas for each framework, but they're all just lacking that one single element that could link them all together in a natural way! And there are so many creative and talented minds on this website that I know that some group could come together, pool their brain power, and find that one element that could turn scattered animations and mechanics into a full fledged fan game!

 

 

I hope you're not troubled by my musings. I don't really expect much in terms of interaction, but I wouldn't mind it other people wanted to throw their opinions into the ring.

[KoolHndLuke]

Advertisement- Modders often say they take lousy screenshots. Therefor they rely on users to provide them for the mod sometimes and other times they just don't bother. Keep in mind that modders are modders- not advertisers. With that said, you can often find very good mods that don't have but maybe one or two (poor) screenshots and a short description that are none-the-less very good. As far as spelling out exactly what the mod does, again knowing how to make something work and then explaining exactly what it does isn't everyone's strong suit either. General rule I have is that you read what other's have posted about the mod and decide from there.

 

Instructions- Kind of agree with you here. Thing is that the MA may well know how to make the mod work in their game, but not in yours with other mods. No good way to anticipate mod conflicts or potential bugs after updates. As far as dependencies and knowing how to install them, you just have to keep trying until you get it right. If you're stumped, there's a good chance you'll find others with the same problem and have found a solution. I sometimes find better install instructions from users of the mod than the the mod page itself. Also remember that English is not universally spoken.

 

Competition- you're assuming all MA's know exactly how to build and implement whatever fresh idea they have for a game. Simple answer is they don't alone. This is the best reason I can think of for so many mods doing very similar things. Collaboration is the key to achieving more I think anyway. Where one modder is well versed in an area but weak in others, another can carry that load and make very cool mods happen.

 

Modder Burnout/abandonware- Funny thing here is that most mods were built copying someone else's idea and (hopefully) improving upon it. And yes, again, mods are usually much better/more polished when a small team puts them together. The bad thing about this is that it causes lesser MA's with limited knowledge to feel inadequate to offer much and to not share their work. I can attest to this personally since I feel I lack the skill necessary to make what I could feel proud of and people will enjoy.

 

What if- you've got to be kidding. There's a team literally building the entire continent of Tamriel and outlying areas and it's taking them ten or more years to do it. That is a huge group of people putting together something incredible. The amount of work involved with this idea is daunting at best.

 

In short, I would say to appreciate what we have already rather than expect every thing to be polished up, explained thoroughly, work flawlessly and be fantastic. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by KoolHndLuke

[Gamer_Auto]

10 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Modder Burnout/abandonware- Funny thing here is that most mods were built copying someone else's idea and (hopefully) improving upon it. And yes, again, mods are usually much better/more polished when a small team puts them together. The bad thing about this is that it causes lesser MA's with limited knowledge to feel inadequate to offer much and to not share their work. I can attest to this personally since I feel I lack the skill necessary to make what I could feel proud of and people will enjoy.

You're still several steps ahead of me. I can write prose, but not computer code. I can paint a picture with words, but I can't make character/environment assets. And even then, I'm out of practice. If you actually have Mod creation skills, that puts you in a better position to help any team than I.

 

13 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

What if- you've got to be kidding. There's a team literally building the entire continent of Tamriel and outlying areas and it's taking them ten or more years to do it. That is a huge group of people putting together something incredible. The amount of work involved with this idea is daunting at best.

Scroll around through the SexLab Index. A lot of the foundation is already there. Frameworks, character assets, environment assets, new animations, multiple types of sex mechanics from vanilla to monster-fucking, eventually alternatives to SexLab Survival will pop up now that that major staple has been nuked. The basics are already in place, it just needs a coherent and engaging story to tie it all together and give it solid direction. If you were to just install every single one of those individual mods, it'd be a broken mess. With cohesion, direction, and an engaging narrative, you'd have a smash hit on your hands.

[Miauzi]

Vor 9 Stunden sagte Gamer_Auto:

Du bist mir immer noch einige Schritte voraus. Ich kann Prosa schreiben, aber keinen Computercode. Ich kann ein Bild mit Worten malen, aber ich kann keine Charakter-/Umwelt-Assets erstellen. Und selbst dann bin ich außer Übung. Wenn Sie tatsächlich über Fähigkeiten in der Mod-Erstellung verfügen, sind Sie besser in der Lage, jedem Team zu helfen als ich.

 

Scrollen Sie durch den SexLab-Index. Ein großer Teil des Fundaments ist bereits vorhanden. Frameworks, Charakter-Assets, Umgebungs-Assets, neue Animationen, verschiedene Arten von Sex-Mechaniken von Vanilla bis Monster-Ficken, schließlich werden Alternativen zu SexLab Survival auftauchen, nachdem dieser Hauptbestandteil zerstört wurde. Die Grundlagen sind bereits vorhanden, es bedarf lediglich einer zusammenhängenden und fesselnden Geschichte, die alles zusammenfügt und eine solide Richtung vorgibt. Wenn Sie einfach jeden einzelnen dieser einzelnen Mods installieren würden, wäre das ein Chaos. Mit Zusammenhalt, Regie und einer fesselnden Erzählung hätten Sie einen Volltreffer vor sich.

 

And who chooses which of the many SexLab or DD mods go into such a “collection”?

Everyone has their own personal preferences - but that's only part of the problem.

The other thing is the fact that the "engine" behind the game (i.e. "Skyrim") only has limited performance - so you can't install mods as you like... without running the risk of "killing" the game!

A good 20-30% of the problems raised in the support threads have this aspect as a background.

I now write down my own “role play” and use them to create stories - which I publish in blogs.

In order to be able to implement my own ideas, I don't need to know how to program - i.e. create mods... but I do need to know - what content they have and how different mods work with each other.

In this way you also get deeper into the function of mods... and you can help other users of these mods with certain (content-related) problems.

For example, I decided to write a solution for the quest series for the mod "Laura's Bondage Shop", which I really appreciate.

[HexBolt8]

16 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

I'm a lurker that occasionally makes a post.

Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts.  "Lurkers" are a significant segment of most gaming communities.  If they're not heard from, those communities risk unintentionally becoming insular, with a small group of members mostly writing to and for each other.

 

(I'm adding this statement after writing the rest, that many of my comments below might seem like a counterargument, but my intention was not really to refute anything but to offer different viewpoints on complex issues, just as one might illuminate a multifaceted gem from various angles to better perceive its qualities.)

 

Advertisement/Presentation - This irks me too.  Sometimes I read a mod's entire description page and I still don't know what the hell it does.  Other times, there is a decent description, but it's most of the way down the page under a series of update instructions (some of them long outdated) for people who already use the mod.  That ties into my comment above about communities unintentionally becoming insular and unwelcoming to newcomers.  On the flip side, if the author took the time to write a detailed description page, it's inconsiderate for people to skip over that and post a question in the support section that was already clearly answered on the mod page.

 

Images & Screenshots - Images are most helpful when there's something to show, like a player home, new follower, weapon, or outfit.  However, other things are harder to show, as with mods focused on comments, dialog, or relationships.  Unless a mod is offering new poses or animations, a long series of pictures of sex scenes tends to look a lot like the same stuff shown by other mods, and if you don't have that animation pack, you won't even see those positions when playing the mod.

 

Mod authors might not be artists, but at a minimum it's beneficial if screenshots have enough light (night shots and dark interiors don't usually show off the author's creations very well).  A focus on what the mod offers really helps, so people don't have to ask if the interesting outfit, weapon, or new textures in the images come with the mod (often, they don't).

 

Instructions - Not arguing with the original points, but Nexus is a large site with a bigger budget, so it has nicer site features and different conventions.  It might be a matter of perception, but we seem to have more variations of some of the commonly required mods, so should a mod author list all of them, or play favorites and only link to one, possibly offending someone?  Even on Nexus, most of the mod instructions assume that readers are familiar with the required mods and know how to install and enable mods, so it's a common problem with modding games (how many Nexus mods that require BodySlide explain how to install and use it?). 

 

Competition - A comparison with commercial products risks overlooking the important factor that the vast majority of mods are free.  A company's motivation is profit, but motivations can vary a lot from one mod author to the next.  One might instead compare them to artists (though that's imperfect), where drawing inspiration from a work and producing something similar but different is one thing, but essentially recreating someone else's work can carry negative implications, such as that the original work is low quality.  It's a complex issue with various gray areas.

 

Collaboration/Teamwork - This can work well in small groups, but there's also the saying that too many cooks spoil the soup -- if each team member has different ideas for what the mod should be and offer, one might end up with a jumble of compromises, a weird mishmash of features designed by committee rather than a sleek, focused mod with a consistent experience.  Authors here often do talk to each other, seek advice, use examples from others as starting points, and gratefully accept contributions from players who have technical knowledge but aren't mod creators themselves (a limited collaboration).

 

What If - I admire the enthusiasm of the sentiment (sincerely, not being sarcastic), but LoversLab is a niche site largely devoted to sex and fetishes.  A big project dedicated to bestiality, for example, might hold zero interest for a lot of people, whereas a big civil war project on Nexus could appeal to a lot of players.  Smaller works, easily within the ability of a single developer, won't tightly mesh, but they do allow players to choose from niche interests, and it's not unusual for developers of other mods to offer varying degrees of interaction with the cooperation of other authors.

Edited November 4, 2023 by HexBolt8

[NickNozownik]

I have to disagree on the instructions part, because based on what I've seen on the Fallout 4 Nexus plenty of people never do any basic internet search on their own. If they would simply look up "how to mod fallout 4" using pretty much any search engine they would get plenty of short and straight to the point instructions. Majority of mods don't need them because you install them in the exact same way.

I've seen this over and over again. "The gun is invisible, all textures are messed up, my character T-poses, firing it crashes the game." Then I download it, drag and drop it to the Vortex mod manager and it works just fine.

[KoolHndLuke]

Thinking about this some more and I seem to remember several member creators here getting together to make a unique sex game. Kept up with it for a bit, but eventually lost track of it. Whatever became of it? Think it was around 2018/2019? Then Covid hit and the site lost some members shortly after and it's dwindled more over the years since due to other reasons.

 

The flip side of newbies wanting mods streamlined and easy to install is that I think they lose the knowledge older modders inevitably gained beating their heads against their keyboards by having to do things the hard way in the last decade. One click installs and run doesn't teach them a damn thing except how to want more. If they understood the long progression it took to get to this point in modding games, they'd better understand what goes into making them I think and curb somewhat (or very) unrealistic expectations for free mods from people sharing their passions from days, weeks, and years of their free time.

 

Anyway, there's some pretty decent Indie sex games being made anymore via Unity. Have a couple on my drive that I really like and am regularly looking for more. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by KoolHndLuke

[Miauzi]

Vor 9 Stunden sagte HexBolt8:

Anweisungen – Ich möchte nicht mit den ursprünglichen Punkten streiten, aber Nexus ist eine große Website mit einem größeren Budget, daher verfügt sie über schönere Website-Funktionen und andere Konventionen. Es mag eine Frage der Wahrnehmung sein, aber wir scheinen mehr Variationen einiger der häufig benötigten Mods zu haben. Sollte ein Mod-Autor also alle auflisten oder Favoriten spielen und nur auf eine verlinken, was möglicherweise jemanden beleidigt? Sogar auf Nexus gehen die meisten Mod-Anleitungen davon aus, dass die Leser mit den erforderlichen Mods vertraut sind und wissen, wie man Mods installiert und aktiviert. Es handelt sich also um ein häufiges Problem bei Modding-Spielen (wie viele Nexus-Mods, die BodySlide erfordern, erklären, wie man es installiert und verwendet). ?). 

 

 

 

From my experiences here in this forum, information about the content of a mod or its installation... is usually NOT read or only PARTIALLY read.

By "read" I also mean "understand"... that also includes the fact that a mod you want to use is simply 1-2 "house numbers" too big for the user's current abilities.

No matter - people just try to use the "crowbar"... which usually doesn't work... which doesn't result in reflecting on one's own abilities... no - it will do a lot for the mod author." blown around the ears”.

Another group of mod users... they expect a "round-the-clock" service from the mod author... the answer to a simple question within a few minutes... even if the same problem 1-2 The previous pages were explained in detail.

And woe betide those users who point out such a circumstance... but then a "holy indignation" about the lousy treatment follows.

Exactly such circumstances over time drive away the motivation of a mod author to share the work he has created in his free time with others... this then leads to "burn-out".

I always ask myself:

What is the motivation of a mod user to learn something new?

I'm well aware that this isn't the case for everyone... but if I had to do a statistic...

[KoolHndLuke]

41 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

What is the motivation of a mod user to learn something new?

Patreon money? ?

 

Have seen reskins for $50 a download. 

 

Edit: The truth isn't very funny I guess.

Edited November 4, 2023 by KoolHndLuke

[FauxFurry]

Item #1 us up to the modding community as a whole to assist on, something that some modders greatly benefit from while others sadly lack access to.

Some mod pages are filled with high quality screenshots from not only satisfied users but collaborators who specialize in fashion shoots in games while others only have a handful of low quality images from the mod makers who just want to get across the basic idea of what their mod can do before getting back to the part that they find fun, the modding itself.

 

While I have tried, I simply sample too wide a variety of mods to test out their content as well as the limits of their stability to remember to take optimal screenshots to show off what they have to offer in a manner that does not detract from them with some other mod's content overlapping it. I used to take and post a lot more screenshots to mod pages but I find myself have less time to do so these days. I still do point people in the direction of as many mods that might appeal to their tastes as possible, however. A hefty percentage of my posts are md recommendations or answering queries about mods.

[Gamer_Auto]

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

The flip side of newbies wanting mods streamlined and easy to install is that I think they lose the knowledge older modders inevitably gained beating their heads against their keyboards by having to do things the hard way in the last decade. One click installs and run doesn't teach them a damn thing except how to want more. If they understood the long progression it took to get to this point in modding games, they'd better understand what goes into making them I think and curb somewhat (or very) unrealistic expectations for free mods from people sharing their passions from days, weeks, and years of their free time.

 

So...what's the solution? Honestly, all I see here is a complaint with no offered solution. It's not like every casual looking to drop a new feature into their game has the time, mental capacity, or desire to learn the history of game modding and how to do it themselves. If that was the requirement, we wouldn't have a community; much less incredible tools like MO2, Vortex, or Steam Workshop.

 

And if you ask around, I'm sure more people thank you think realize that modding is a couple steps removed from professional game development; all the work with none of the pay. They're just like me: lurkers that don't often speak out except to ask for help, because we have nothing to offer to mod authors except ideas that the authors themselves probably already thought of and put on the eternally long list.

[Miauzi]

Vor 18 Minuten sagte Gamer_Auto:

 

Also...was ist die Lösung? Ehrlich gesagt sehe ich hier nur eine Beschwerde ohne angebotene Lösung. Es ist nicht so, dass jeder Gelegenheitsspieler, der eine neue Funktion in sein Spiel einbauen möchte, die Zeit, die geistige Leistungsfähigkeit oder den Wunsch hat, die Geschichte des Spielmoddings zu erlernen und zu erfahren, wie man es selbst macht. Wenn das die Anforderung wäre, hätten wir keine Gemeinschaft; viel weniger unglaubliche Tools wie MO2, Vortex oder Steam Workshop.

 

Und wenn Sie sich umhören, bin ich mir sicher, dass mehr Menschen erkennen, dass Modding ein paar Schritte von der professionellen Spieleentwicklung entfernt ist; die ganze Arbeit ohne Bezahlung. Sie sind genau wie ich: Lauernde, die sich nicht oft äußern, außer um um Hilfe zu bitten, weil wir den Mod-Autoren nichts zu bieten haben außer Ideen, die die Autoren selbst wahrscheinlich schon erdacht und auf die ewig lange Liste gesetzt haben.

 

However, many mods are NOT for so-called "casual" players - because they require you to not only deal with the content but also the complex installation required.

Modifying your own game is completely different than installing a purchased game and using it.

Unfortunately, many mod users today confuse a mod for a game with the application of an “app” for their smartphone.

---

Mod authors help?

This is also possible WITHOUT knowledge of programming - because quite a few mods contain quests or entire "chains" of quests.

Mod users often get stuck "processing" a quest... for often very different reasons.

Here, as a user, you can help the mod author... by providing your knowledge of these quests as help... and ACTIVELY participate in answering questions.

Yes - that's the step from a purely passive mod user... to an active forum participant.

[Kashked]

14 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Mod authors might not be artists

 

I'll chime in with the other side of the coin... some modders are NOTHING but artists. Particularly when it comes to things like armor in a game like Skyrim, but more generally, visual stuff that requires an artistic touch. Often you get a gorgeous set, only to have it either be totally under- or overpowered, with no gameplay integration (the classic "You'll find it in a chest in Riverwood"), or alternativly, have extremely complex way to attain it which doesn't correspond at all to it's gameplay utility.

 

I generally don't bother with downloads these days that only show off screenshots without describing the item in gameplay terms for this reason.

[Vader666]

3 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

It's not like every casual looking to drop a new feature into their game has the time, mental capacity, or desire to learn the history of game modding and how to do it themselves.

 

Modding a game is a hobby in itself, if you don't invest time and effort you get only so far and some won't get it at all.

The amount of needed information / understanding grows exponetially with the size of your load order, which is why throwing in half a dozen armors into your game is easy and running a 200 .esp loadorder is hard.

 

On 11/3/2023 at 9:18 AM, Gamer_Auto said:

All the big stuff is made by organized teams that work together on a common passion project.

 

Because it's needed for the big stuff, creation of ordinary sized mods only gets harder when multiple people are involved and at some point in time you realize that your "common passion" isn't as common as you think it is.

In the end modding is the expression of individualism, which is kinda hard to get with multiple people involved.

 

5 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Whatever became of it? Think it was around 2018/2019?

 

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but the project i know was in 2017 and went nowhere.

Just like a lot of the other "joint ventures" in modding.

 

 

[HexBolt8]

6 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

lurkers that don't often speak out except to ask for help, because we have nothing to offer to mod authors except ideas that the authors themselves probably already thought of and put on the eternally long list.

Don't sell your ideas short.  Most mod authors appreciate ideas.  They can't or won't want to do a good number of them, but some of the feature suggestions that I've seen are fantastic!  It doesn't take long to post a suggestion and make a contribution to a mod that one enjoys.

[Frayed]

5 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

It's not like every casual looking to drop a new feature into their game has the time, mental capacity, or desire to learn the history of game modding and how to do it themselves. If that was the requirement, we wouldn't have a community; much less incredible tools like MO2, Vortex, or Steam Workshop.

 

I believe that's the point about expectations - if you're used to one-click installs that just work, it's only logical to assume that this is the norm, and you'll start expecting it everywhere. But when it doesn't work, you're immediately in trouble. Because unlike commercial products, there is no customer service, quality control or assurance, because mods are not commercial products. Many of the things you write in your post are entirely reasonable expectations for commercial products, but again, mods aren't. And maybe I've missed your point, but the fact that new people took the time and mental effort to learn is exactly why we now have those incredible tools you mention and a vibrant community. Communities require participation. As for the solution...

 

Quote

And if you ask around, I'm sure more people thank you think realize that modding is a couple steps removed from professional game development; all the work with none of the pay. They're just like me: lurkers that don't often speak out except to ask for help, because we have nothing to offer to mod authors except ideas that the authors themselves probably already thought of and put on the eternally long list.

 

First for what users can do: Remember that mod authors are primarily hobbyists. When they share their work, they do so (I believe) primarily because they're made something they think is cool, and they want others to see and enjoy it. Sometimes that last bit is part of their motivation (extrinsic), sometimes not (intrinsic).

 

If you want to contribute to a modding community without making mods, this is the simplest thing you can do and perhaps even the most meaningful: let people know you like what they made. Leave a comment. Share a story. Post a screenshot. Suggest their stuff to others, that kind of stuff. I'm personally always kind of humbled when an account made 4 years ago with 3 messages total leaves a nice comment on my mod - I imagine that must mean I did something right.

 

A next level is providing feedback. This can be tricky. Some people don't like having their stuff criticized. For a commercial company, this would be entirely unreasonable but again: mod authors are hobbyists. Don't write feedback like you're writing a review on Amazon. Give feedback like, I don't know, your friend took up painting and is showing you their first work. Sure, it may not be great, but cut them some slack.

 

These are all things you and others can do that take no skill, time or effort other than being nice.

 

For mod authors, a lot of the stuff you mention are indeed good points. A simple description and a few clear screenshots go a long way for clarity and advertisement, and as a result for how much people can enjoy your content. If you share because you want people to enjoy it, why not advertise it a little? It's worth it.

 

I think here the difference between LL and Nexus is that Nexus has set up their upload page in such a way that you do these things automatically. Just for fun, go click the "upload" buttons on LL and Nexus. See the difference? Nexus is a modding platform - it's set up for distributing mods and secondly for discussing them. Loverslab is a modding forum - it's set up for discussing mods and secondly for distributing them. Nexus almost enforces a better format. Honestly, LL might benefit from taking some hints from nexus on that field.

 

There's more to say on the topic of collaborations etc but this post is already getting long so I'll truncate it here. It's an interesting discussion so far, though. Please excuse me if any of the above sounds a little accusatory, it's not meant that way.

[EgoBallistic]

On 11/3/2023 at 4:18 AM, Gamer_Auto said:

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When I look for a mod, I tap into my very particular tastes. Naturally, that requires a mod's download page to properly advertise itself. A concise and to-the-point description that fills me in on what the mod offers, screenshots to show me what's on offer (because what a reader sees in their head doesn't always equate to the actual product), and - if there's a risk of spoilers - just enough of a tease that it gets me hooked enough to want to know more.

 

I tend to agree and I make every effort to name my mods appropriately, have a concise description first followed by a detailed one, pics, etc.  On the other hand, not every mod author is going to be able to do that - some don't speak the same language, some are just more technically oriented and not good at writing descriptions.  A lot of times, questions and answers posted in the mod's comment section will provide the missing details.  So it's kind of incumbent on the user to do some legwork, maybe try the mod out, etc.

 

On 11/3/2023 at 4:18 AM, Gamer_Auto said:

Instructions
I come from the realm of Steam Modding. I'm spoiled by the one-click downloads and no requirements but the vanilla game and its DLC. I'm slowly getting used to Mod Organizer 2 and Nexus, and really appreciate Nexus' little "Requirement Reminder" popup. But what I really hate seeing is a lack of instructions in the event that there's more to it than just "download, install, and go", because I'm new to this world. If I were to avoid hyperbole, I'd estimate that around 75% of the content I see already assumes that you know what you're doing.

 

Not every mod author wants to put detailed instructions on how to install a script extender, an animation framework, a bondage framework, an animation tags resource, etc, on their mod's Description page.  And if a mod author does write those up, they have to keep those descriptions up to date.  It becomes a lot of work if you are the author of a lot of mods. 

 

At some point users have to learn how to do these things for themselves.

 

On 11/3/2023 at 4:18 AM, Gamer_Auto said:

"Competition"
In industry, monopolies are discouraged (and in some countries they're illegal) because perceived competition between two or more companies producing the same product is more often than not a net positive. The consumer gets freedom of choice, and the creators improve each other through perceived rivalry.

 

That all depends.  Two mods that do similar things in different ways, great.  Even better if they can both be run side by side so you can take advantage of each one's strengths in a particular scenario.

 

But another mod coming along and reimplementing someone else's idea with a few improvements?  Not cool, and unfortunately happens a lot.

 

On 11/3/2023 at 4:18 AM, Gamer_Auto said:

Modder Burn Out/Abandonware/Missing Requirements

This one starts the more hypothetical side of things, but I feel like it's an observation I should state anyway.
In Skyrim alone I've found tons of mods that have been abandoned, passed around like a hot potato, have a requirement that was straight up deleted for one reason or another (which is a discussion in and of itself). I fully understand that interests change, sometimes attention needs to be drawn elsewhere (like IRL responsibilities), and sometimes people could just throw in the towel thinking that some "competition beat them out". But I think that this is all just a symptom of a larger issue: I don't think Modding can be a one-man-job anymore.

 

You're really talking about two different things here.

 

Burnout happens for a variety of reasons.  IRL responsibilities and interests changing does happen and does take mod authors out of the scene, either temporarily or permanently, but I suspect they aren't the reasons for actual burnout.  Most mod authors who quit seem to do so because of mod users.  People who demand hand-holding, refuse to read, claim their mod is causing a CTD when that's not even possible, etc.  It's a constant, and exhausting, game of whack-a-mole.  In the FO4 community we are very fortunate that there are a number of users who have stepped up to help out in mod support threads, create comprehensive guides to installing a working mod ecosystem, spend half their lives on Discord helping out users, etc.  They provide an invaluable service, I probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them.

 

As far as collaboration, there are lots of problems with that argument.  First, most mods don't need more than one author.  A single developer with their own vision can implement what they want, keep it up to date, expand it, etc, better and faster than a group.  Second, smaller mods are how people learn to make mods.  You find something broken and fix it, or something missing and add it.  You can't just jump into a group modding project with no experience. 

 

Group projects work well with small groups, usually a couple of people who divide the labor according to their interests and talents.  Several large quest mods for FO4 were developed by groups of two, and those have worked out well and become very popular.  But look at the track record for bigger projects.  They almost never come to fruition.  And it's not surprising.  You're trying to coordinate between half a dozen or more people with different schedules, interests, detail orientation, levels of motivation, and IRL work and personal responsibilities.  And unlike a salaried game developer position, working on a mod project doesn't have any tangible benefits, nor does it have consequences if you quit.  It's certainly possible for large groups to work together and develop mods but the odds of success are lower than for small groups, and much lower than for individuals.

 

On 11/3/2023 at 4:18 AM, Gamer_Auto said:

Imagine, for example, a Skyrim SexLab mod with as much content, if not more content, than Skyrim itself; with fully realized storylines and mechanics that have been put through the drafting process.

 

Yeah sure that sounds great.  Free DLC, whee.  Sign me up.

[Miauzi]

Vor 23 Minuten sagte HexBolt8:

Verkaufen Sie Ihre Ideen nicht unter Wert. Die meisten Mod-Autoren schätzen Ideen. Sie können oder wollen nicht viele davon machen, aber einige der Funktionsvorschläge, die ich gesehen habe, sind fantastisch! Es dauert nicht lange, einen Vorschlag zu posten und einen Beitrag zu einem Mod zu leisten, der einem gefällt.

 

As a mod user, you can simply overwhelm a mod author with your wishes.

In his efforts to secure the favor of his “customers”, the latter can completely overwhelm himself to the point of final burnout.

It's not always possible to find someone who will completely take over this mod... and ensure that the ingenious creation is preserved.

However, this worked in the following example:

 

 

The mod essentially filled a gap in the entire "network" of BDSM and fetish mods... that's why its requirements are quite extensive.

For quite a few users there were too many requirements... whose wishes to reduce these requirements - but ultimately ensures that many things in the mod are no longer real tasks for the player (topic: "Exams by the club dominatrix").

Other wishes would simply have overwhelmed the Skyrim engine - so they couldn't be implemented without keeping a user's mod list very, very small.

[HexBolt8]

38 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

As a mod user, you can simply overwhelm a mod author with your wishes.

In his efforts to secure the favor of his “customers”, the latter can completely overwhelm himself to the point of final burnout.

That depends a lot on the attitude of the author and the politeness of the suggestions.  If they're worded as complaints or demands, that would be annoying, but most suggestions that I see (for any mod) are stated nicely.  As a mod author, I'd rather have too many suggestions than too few.  Suggestions also indicate interest in the mod content.

 

Trying to please everyone is always a bad idea.  It's enough to say that an idea is impractical, too much word, doesn't fit the mod, or just doesn't appeal to you.

[DarkBlade13]

What about my mods? I think I did a neat job.

Regarding proper quest lines I just want to add that I had really big plans for extensive additions on the existing quest lines. However I quickly realised that the only way to do this while guaranteeing the quality would be to find the actual voice actors of the existing npc's and have them all help and speak lines for my quest lines. Since I am not an employee of bethesda game studios I therefore refuse to extend on existing quest lines. I could use voice synthesizer but I feel like the quality is too bad to be a valid option. I don't have the resources to put together a team for building up quest lines from the ground.  Otherwise I could heavily extend skyrim.

The issue with Bruma from what I saw in videos is that they lack interesting content. Sure they offer new maps but they don't really go with something new. They take an old game and try to refurbish. This shows a little lack of creativity. They should build something new non existing. Like a new great war to resist the elves. This time with the dragonborn on the side of Skyrim. Perhaps even vampires? Or what about turning on Molag Bal while maintaining imortality, joining Arkay as revenenge for what Molag Bal did. I assume with enough research vampires must be able to feed on magic sources instead of blood right?

[Gamer_Auto]

24 minutes ago, DarkBlade13 said:

What about my mods? I think I did a neat job.

Regarding proper quest lines I just want to add that I had really big plans for extensive additions on the existing quest lines. However I quickly realised that the only way to do this while guaranteeing the quality would be to find the actual voice actors of the existing npc's and have them all help and speak lines for my quest lines. Since I am not an employee of bethesda game studios I therefore refuse to extend on existing quest lines. I could use voice synthesizer but I feel like the quality is too bad to be a valid option. I don't have the resources to put together a team for building up quest lines from the ground.  Otherwise I could heavily extend skyrim.

The issue with Bruma from what I saw in videos is that they lack interesting content. Sure they offer new maps but they don't really go with something new. They take an old game and try to refurbish. This shows a little lack of creativity. They should build something new non existing. Like a new great war to resist the elves. This time with the dragonborn on the side of Skyrim. Perhaps even vampires? Or what about turning on Molag Bal while maintaining imortality, joining Arkay as revenenge for what Molag Bal did. I assume with enough research vampires must be able to feed on magic sources instead of blood right?

Your mods? Let's see, what do you have...? Ah! You did Old Hroldan Farm! And a sex bow? Hm.
You certainly did a good job providing pictures! However, I would suggest showing us the model for the bow and arrows, if they happen to be unique models. If they're just unique enchantments, it would be nice to see the in-game description. A picture of the in-game descriptions for something this simple usually gets across the point to a casual browser. Piqued interest from there would lead them to the well written description.

 

And I love your ideas! That's the kind of thing that I'd love to see incorporated with the otherwise random sex mods!