[UPDATE] only one texture question now - normal map issue solved.

[SmedleyDButler]

Two questions, one cup thread, because they might be related and they're for the same mesh anyway.

 

1) Cannot match cubemap shading - what am I missing?

 

The main problem I've been having is that for the life of me, I cannot get the colour and shade of the environment mapping to match up properly between the armour plate on most of my meshes and a the greaves on pair of boots I'm using for this armour set

 

(BTW, don't worry kids: yeah this is the male 100 weight version, but there'll be sets for all genders and sizes when I'm done, and lots more besides).  

 

 

I have gone through all the textures and done as much as I can (as far as I know) to harmonize them:

 

- I'm using the same cubemap (duh)

- I'm Using identical settings in the BSLightingShaderProperty settings of the mesh, including lighting types, numeric values, etc. I've gone over these and compared them line by line several times and while it's still possible I might have a setting off, I don't think this is the issue?

- I've done my best to make sure the saturation, shading and tone of the difference (base colour) map, specular map, and the environment map have been made as close as possible. Yes, this includes the alpha channel of the normal map.

 

I've done this many times with other armours I've worked on with good results but this time It's just off enough that a small adjustment somewhere isn't the problem. I must be missing a setting or texture formatting detail somewhere.

 

(second question spoilered because solved):

 

Spoiler

2) Normal Map light orientation changed when saving? What settings to fix this?

 

As mentioned in an earlier thread, I was trying to fix a .dds normal map manually earlier today. I don't have a lot of experience with this, but I've worked with normal maps occasionally and there's one or two good tutorials out there for using the NVidia plugin for photoshop if messing with normal maps (I use this one: http://www.bencloward.com/tutorials_normal_maps12.shtml)

 

Here's the boots again:

 

 

You can see that the surface of the metalic parts has a very crappy scaly/scratched texture to it, and in the image in the first question, you can see hat rougher texture doesn't match the other armour pieces I'm going to use it with.

 

So I smoothed out the normal map by hand, applied the "normalize" NVidia filter per the steps listed in the tutorial above, and the new normal map was nice and tidy with no artifacts or issues. Except one kind of big one:

 

 

While the texture is perfect now, the direction of the light seems to have changed completely (hard to tell, but I think it might be reversed). I have tried inverting the X axis, the Y axis, and both at once, but no matter how I save the normal map, it generally comes out matching the second image pretty closely when applied to the mesh.

 

You can see it in the output quite easily if you look at the normal map itself. The colours are technically the same, but...

 

(Original is on the left, probably obviously, every version saved after editing comes out like the one on the right)

 

 

So it must be something else I need to do when saving or filtering... but what?

 

EDIT: Something 27X mentioned in another thread is not to mess with compression formats when saving normals, which is absolutely correct. However, I have previously edited normal maps which were missing alpha channels by adding the alpha channel and saving as DTX5. I have not had a problem doing this,

 

HOWEVER, in those cases I was not actually saving them s a normal map, I was just saving them as a generic .dds without turning on the normal map settings, since I wasn't changing that part of the image. Maybe this was because I was always taking a dds with DTX5 compression and re-saving it as DTX5 again. But with these boots, as far as I can tell I'm still doing the same as the original normals are DTX5 again?

 

So I have no idea if that information helps at all. But I'm at least saving in the same compression format as well.

 

[Tlam99]

The same map applies to both boots, right ?

If so, you have a left boot and a right boot, using same map.

Then it's mirrored, light from left, light from right.

2 maps you need.

[SmedleyDButler]

13 hours ago, T-lam said:

The same map applies to both boots, right ?

If so, you have a left boot and a right boot, using same map.

Then it's mirrored, light from left, light from right.

2 maps you need.

 

Texture maps are generally applied to one mesh and then the mesh is mirrored, so you only have one texture for a mirrored mesh to save resources on texturing.

 

Lots of fancier or higher-quality mods do use separate left/right meshes (or at least separate textures) to improve looks, but not this pair of boots.

[Tlam99]

2 hours ago, SmedleyDButler said:

(or at least separate textures

Thats the reason. The normal map will be mirrored. You know how normal works ?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping

 

Mirror the normal for the boots, one left normal, one right normal, when the pair is created by mesh mirror, the the mirrored  boot has the original normal again.

Light always from right, or left for both boots.

 

 

[27X]

Cube maps are a static projection of a specific angle of an enviroment. If they're projected somewhere else, they look off, if they're projected backwards or inverted they look off.

 

Pretty cut and dried.

[SmedleyDButler]

Okay, I'll preface this by saying I assume you guys are both talking abotu question #2.

 

1 hour ago, 27X said:

Cube maps are a static projection of a specific angle of an enviroment. If they're projected somewhere else, they look off, if they're projected backwards or inverted they look off.

 

Pretty cut and dried.

 

Yes, I understand how they work. I've made new cubemaps myself.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here but it seems like the message I'm getting from T-Lam is that I need a second normal map when not only have I never seen that be the case in a mirrored mesh over thousands of textures I've messed with over the years while modding, but this exact mesh did not need two different normal maps before? That makes approximately zero sense as far as I can tell.

 

Why would I need to turn one mesh into two, with their own normal maps when the cubemap reflects properly and I only need one normal map, one set of textures and one mesh, so long as I'm using the unedited, original normal map?

 

I'm changing the texture of the normal map, not adding a second one. Why would smoothing out a normal map to remove a rough texture mean I need two? The direction of the reflection changing is the problem, and my understanding is that I'm doing - or not doing - something when I save the edited normal map which causes the original directional information to be changed or lost.

 

EDIT: Maybe you guys think I'm changing more than I am? This mesh did not start out as a single boot which I mirrored. It's been both feet from the beginning. Though even when I DO mirror meshes, this cubemap direction change has never been an issue before and the reflection has been consistent across all surfaces. For example the pauldrons meshes of this armour set started as a single left one, which was then duplicated and mirrored using OS. I had absolutely no issues with their textures at all, but then I didn't need to edit those textures.

 

[Tlam99]

13 minutes ago, SmedleyDButler said:

f the reflection changing is the problem

this is because normal map became     mirrored   by mesh mirror. 

 

light rays are alway perpendicular on normal map and will be refelected that way always.

Check how normal map works, again.

 

another link. colors define where the light will be reflected.

if you mirror, the reflection goes a different direction. maps need to be the same for both boots, NOT mirrored.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20160820195558/http://www.falloutsoftware.com/tutorials/gl/normal-map.html

 

[SmedleyDButler]

6 minutes ago, T-lam said:

this is because normal map became     mirrored   by mesh mirror. 

 

light rays are alway perpendicular on normal map and will be refelected that way always.

Check how normal map works, again.

 

Again. I did not mirror the mesh. I have not actually changed the mesh in any way. And even when I HAVE mirrored a single mesh to make two, that has not caused this problem.

 

I know I typed a lot of words out and it's easier to just skim quickly, but the problem I am having is not the one you seem to think I am having. As far as I can tell you are describing a very different situation and problem.

[SmedleyDButler]

15 minutes ago, T-lam said:

if you mirror, the reflection goes a different direction. maps need to be the same for both boots, NOT mirrored.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20160820195558/http://www.falloutsoftware.com/tutorials/gl/normal-map.html

 

They're not mirrored. I'm not using two separate normal maps.

 

I am using Only One mesh.

 

I am using Only One normal map.

 

This is what the mesh was like BEFORE I edited it, and I have not changed this at all.

 

All I did was take one existing mesh and try to take the existing one single normal map that mesh had and smooth out that one normal map. This editing work is producing an additional, unwanted change in the direction of the reflection. 

 

I don't know why I'm apparently not able to explain this in a way it can be clearly understood, but I am finding this extremely frustrating.

[coolfreaky]

i can not see the PICS .jpg ( better do PICS.png ) .

 

i think if i understand well ; you are talking about textures ' normal maps ' and T-lam  is talking about the mesh ' faces ' .

 

just try with nifskope  : select the mesh , left right click to pop out a small window , with in  the pop out window high light ' mesh ' , and select ' face normals ' , save your mesh and try , see if it changed .

 

in fact generaly when one do boots in 3 d  , the use of mirror is commun .  this cause an inversion in faces ( what is out become in for the mirrored ) resulting in a disparity of the image ( like a bad normal maps ) .

[SmedleyDButler]

36 minutes ago, coolfreaky said:

i can not see the PICS .jpg ( better do PICS.png ) .

 

i think if i understand well ; you are talking about textures ' normal maps ' and T-lam  is talking about the mesh ' faces ' .

 

Yes, I think that's right. I have not edited this boot mesh at all. Only the texture files.

 

Quote

just try with nifskope  : select the mesh , left click to pop out a small window , with in  the pop out window high light ' mesh ' , and select ' face normals ' , save your mesh and try , see if it changed .

 

in fact generaly when one do boots in 3 d  , the use of mirror is commun .  this cause an inversion in faces ( what is out become in for the mirrored ) resulting in a disparity of the image ( like a bad normal maps ) .

 

Gave it a try (as well as several of the other options in that menu, like face flip and normal flip), but none of those really changed the reflection.

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I think those are actually settings for which side (face) of the mesh the texture is on. Thanks for suggesting it though... didn't hurt to try!

[SmedleyDButler]

One small update.

 

If I compare the individual channels between the original normal map and the edited normal map, the edited version's green and red channels are much fainter, but the blue channel is much more visible.

 

Perhaps a setting in the NVidia re-normalization filter is mucking something up on save? When I apply the normalization filter before saving, the normal still looks correct. It's ONLY when saving that this problem happens and the texture is changed.

[coolfreaky]

first as you thought ' normal maps ' test your textures on an other model ( mesh ) . 

 

if nifskope fail than there is no chois to use blender or 3ds max  to revert the faces  .  

 

you can always post the mesh.nif here if you do not know the use of 3d soft  ( i do not know about outfit studio you can try it and see ) .

 

 

[SmedleyDButler]

Hilarious update.

 

The edits work perfectly... as long as the only thing I do is apply the NVidia normalization filter, and then save the normal map as a regular diffuse texture, instead of as normal map.

 

NVidia!

[Tlam99]

Nice 

 

So the logic of the developers. Normalize and save diffuse. Saving normalized as normal map means you normalize twice.

If this is the logic of the developers, then not normalizing and save as normal map should give the same result as normalize and save as diffuse. ?

 

[SmedleyDButler]

8 minutes ago, T-lam said:

Nice 

 

So the logic of the developers. Normalize and save diffuse. Saving normalized as normal map means you normalize twice.

If this is the logic of the developers, then not normalizing and save as normal map should give the same result as normalize and save as diffuse. ?

 

 

Probably! ?

[27X]

28 minutes ago, T-lam said:

Nice 

 

So the logic of the developers. Normalize and save diffuse. Saving normalized as normal map means you normalize twice.

If this is the logic of the developers, then not normalizing and save as normal map should give the same result as normalize and save as diffuse. ?

 

 

Which is why I don't use it.

[Tlam99]

11 hours ago, 27X said:

is why I don't use it

Same here, use the intel.