Why was Bodytalk Deleted?

[Thn444]

I was looking forward to seeing that mod in action and realised why the NPC's didn't get an erection, will it be back up in the future. If anyone knows? 

If there's alternative Mod for the erections, please tell me. ?

 

[Thn444]

 @blastikor  Thanks man. 

[rjrc]

By the way many mods have been removed lately from Nexus because of its new policy about mod property.

With the introduction of the collections, modders have now to agree to share their work and some well known creators have removed their stuff from Nexus.

You can usually find those mods on private websites or here in LL.

 

Well at least this is what i understood from a simple user point of view

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

Nexus Implemented a change at the end of June with no announcement to authors that takes away our agency over our works by forcing us to "Archive" rather than remove older versions or remove mods we don't want to support anymore. They waited 2 weeks total to actually publicly announce it.

Their excuse was the collections bullshit. That removing outdated files would break collections or whatever, even though it should be the responsibility of the person making that garbage to keep it updated and prune mods that are no longer up... They decided that Collections matter more than author agency.

Nexus' excuse for not allowing authors to simply opt out of collections is because if they did the system would fail before it even got off the ground... Which if a system would flop because people didn't like it... Maybe it's not a good feature and you should invest in better features... But Nexus only sees the cash end of it, so ... 


Personally I watched the entire situation unfold in the private mod author channels and I was disgusted by the behavior Nexus staff exhibited to authors who objected. "Don't like it, get a lawyer" attitudes, ignoring author removal requests for over 2 weeks, going as far as retaliating against a user who tried to excercise their legal options (a author filed a DMCA after their request to remove their work was ignored, they were subsequently banned and accused of perjury...) , watching the owner himself mock people who disagreed, and later chose to leave (including talking about ways of making hidden mods available to get around people protesting the changes) , them allowing people who support them to troll, harass and bully anyone who doesn't explicitly agree with Nexus away from the author forums and server with impunity ... All that behavior to me shows that Nexus is no longer the author friendly place they purport themselves as being. They have chosen to step on authors in favor of chasing more money and I don't fucks with that shit. 

Nexus would be nothing without the authors who made them relevant. Them choosing to fuck us over ain't it and they're getting everything they deserve for it. 

And before anyone goes and gets it twisted. The idea that Authors would be nothing without nexus is bullshit. Modmaking existed long before Nexus, will exist long after Nexus. Nexus is just a host. There's a bunch of other places that mods can be hosted on just fine. Authors will be fine without Nexus. 

I pulled my work and left, I think it's the best course of action for me right now as I put too many hours of work into my content for someone else to come along and act like they own it. 

I opted not to put BT here because I just feel better having my personal work on my own site. I don't have a lot of time to set it up, but I'm working slowly at it. Mind you 60 mods won't pop back up overnight. I made a topic here to update my work. I'm considering redoing my site to make it look nicer, but for now the link works and that's all I need. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by TheBottomhoodofSteel

[rjrc]

Thank you for that explanation TheBottomhoodofSteel.

Authors are providing content and a better game for us, the intellectual property of that content is theirs. 

[Thn444]

@TheBottomhoodofSteel  @rjrc

I didn't realise how shitty nexus was becoming, I wanted to join their site back when fallout 4 came out and just recently decided to use their site, nexus's biggest mistake is shitting on the authors and true the mod authors don't need nexus. I wonder how long nexus will last?  

And I wanted to create a royalty free radio station and upload it there. I guess I could always upload it here since it is for one of mods here. 

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:45 PM, Thn444 said:

@TheBottomhoodofSteel  @rjrc

I didn't realise how shitty nexus was becoming, I wanted to join their site back when fallout 4 came out and just recently decided to use their site, nexus's biggest mistake is shitting on the authors and true the mod authors don't need nexus. I wonder how long nexus will last?  

And I wanted to create a royalty free radio station and upload it there. I guess I could always upload it here since it is for one of mods here. 

Here's the thing of it

I'm not gonna be one who speculates on if this decision will kill nexus, because I don't know or care enough to want to see nexus Fall that badly. I would like to see them get taken down a notch for attempting to take ownership of work away from authors. 

My personal thing is, I have been planning for a while to move away from Nexus, so I've been kinda detaching for a while now. This situation just made the move faster. 

Nexus has been slowly losing popularity to Discord/Patreon for authors. Discord is 100% free, minimally restrictive on what you can do and you get to upload whatever without going through the nightmare of Nexus' upload system (Which is absolutely trash and has been in need of an overhaul, but instead they have opted to do nothing to make it better). Patreon on the other hand allows you to get more money from your work (Nexus' DP pays pretty much peanuts and you have to wait 3 months to get what you earned anyway. They love to bloviate about how much they have paid out in DP, pretending that authors are makin bands, when we're makin nothin) and better interaction with your community. Patreon is partially less restrictive (Adult content is the only thing restricted) and easier to upload to. It's no shock to see authors flocking away to places that are more conveient, less restrictive and have better incentives to upload and produce content than Nexus has. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by TheBottomhoodofSteel

[Thn444]

@TheBottomhoodofSteel
I know how hard it is to create mods, I wanted to make a game that was kind of like battlefield 4 but due to my budget was at £0 I couldn't go on with it. lol 

Having a site claiming ownership, paying me peanuts for my hard work, yeah I'd delete my mods from there and move else where. 

[BillyG]

On 8/4/2021 at 1:11 AM, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Here's the thing of it

Thanks for the explanation, I was wondering what was going on there - I already had to scout a discord for some mod that was removed from Nexus. I thought it was just Nexus bitching about some adult policy. And I'm seeing a lot more mods locked behind Patreon paywalls lately - I have no idea how much authors of popular mods get out of either Nexus or Patreon.

 

From a mere user's perspective: If collections is about one-click installing mod "groups" other than going through every step in the STEP guide, requiring _weeks_ of tedious work it does sound like a good idea. And it can be useful to see older versions archived - otherwise you're bound to run into "mod x or patch y only works with (older) version of mod z, but mod author z insists on doing a forced update because it's the latestest and greatestest". I just saw a mod on Nexus that broke compatibility with FNIS, for example.

 

It would be unfortunate to see the mod ecosystem scattered, having just links to hundreds of discords or patrons. Of course, the content has become a lot more professional since the FO3 'ctd' days - and the more monetarization there is, the more everyone will wonder "Why should I be the last person to distribute this for (nearly) free?) :-\

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

3 hours ago, BillyG said:

Thanks for the explanation, I was wondering what was going on there - I already had to scout a discord for some mod that was removed from Nexus. I thought it was just Nexus bitching about some adult policy. And I'm seeing a lot more mods locked behind Patreon paywalls lately - I have no idea how much authors of popular mods get out of either Nexus or Patreon.

 

From a mere user's perspective: If collections is about one-click installing mod "groups" other than going through every step in the STEP guide, requiring _weeks_ of tedious work it does sound like a good idea. And it can be useful to see older versions archived - otherwise you're bound to run into "mod x or patch y only works with (older) version of mod z, but mod author z insists on doing a forced update because it's the latestest and greatestest". I just saw a mod on Nexus that broke compatibility with FNIS, for example.

 

It would be unfortunate to see the mod ecosystem scattered, having just links to hundreds of discords or patrons. Of course, the content has become a lot more professional since the FO3 'ctd' days - and the more monetarization there is, the more everyone will wonder "Why should I be the last person to distribute this for (nearly) free?) ?

I'm Not gonna lie, I don't really care about user perspective on Collections/modpacks. OFC it's convenient and easier for you, that's how it's designed and what they're using to get you to buy into it. Note how you have to have Premium to get that one click experience... End of the day, they decided Author Agency in their own works doesn't matter cause they only see the money they could make selling users a feature and that's not right. You don't fuck over the people who built you up.

Any reasonable user with common sense and respect for the work authors do should want authors to WANT to participate in this system (Which yes, does mean some authors will not want to participate and you should respect that too) , rather than feeling like they're being FORCED to participate in this system.

As I said before, If giving authors an option to opt out of the system would kill your system/feature/etc , maybe... Just MAYBE the system isn't good and you should invest in better systems and features that mod authors would actually want to participate in.

Nexus doesn't and hasn't done that. I've watched numerous times our demands and asking for improvements and fixes to features just get treated as a low priority while they work on the user end more or give priority to the user experience. Uploading to Nexus is a whole ass daunting task as it is, the upload page feels like a damn tax form and there's a lot of times where things will break or act up. They have spent their time basically treating us like we don't matter and I can see why this latest change has authors basically fed up with Nexus. The DP pays peanuts and you have to wait 3 months to get what you earned anyway and the upload system is a nightmare. It's easier to go on Discord/Patreon/Twitter/LL and upload, so why bother with Nexus other than visibility? 

Ultimately Nexus has made their bed, and are layin in it... Had they actually tried to do better about actually being author friendly and making authors happy, I'm sure things would have went differently, but their behavior up to now is what is causing this mess now. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by TheBottomhoodofSteel

[maddadicusrex]

4 hours ago, BillyG said:

Thanks for the explanation, I was wondering what was going on there - I already had to scout a discord for some mod that was removed from Nexus. I thought it was just Nexus bitching about some adult policy. And I'm seeing a lot more mods locked behind Patreon paywalls lately - I have no idea how much authors of popular mods get out of either Nexus or Patreon.

 

From a mere user's perspective: If collections is about one-click installing mod "groups" other than going through every step in the STEP guide, requiring _weeks_ of tedious work it does sound like a good idea. And it can be useful to see older versions archived - otherwise you're bound to run into "mod x or patch y only works with (older) version of mod z, but mod author z insists on doing a forced update because it's the latestest and greatestest". I just saw a mod on Nexus that broke compatibility with FNIS, for example.

 

It would be unfortunate to see the mod ecosystem scattered, having just links to hundreds of discords or patrons. Of course, the content has become a lot more professional since the FO3 'ctd' days - and the more monetarization there is, the more everyone will wonder "Why should I be the last person to distribute this for (nearly) free?) ?

We learn to succeed by actually failing a few times. I learned how to redo XMLS, understand how modding works, by screwing up so much. Modding is wonderful when it works on your game and we can get help and support for any issue regarding the latest mod with the most updated features. What happens if you get a modpack now with older versions, less features of those mod authors who have left? Who is to say that crucial mod X of that pack on Nexus has now updated on Nexus and there are no original authors left on Nexus for the older versions to follow suit? Best hope that Nexus tech geek who assembled that mod pack is good at reverse engineering the codes of the now illegitimate other mods to keep the pack from unwinding. Good luck with that.

[BillyG]

1 hour ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Note how you have to have Premium to get that one click experience...

Right, thanks again for the background information on Nexus!

 

I haven't had Nexus Premium ever, and neither realize nor really care what it can do. I don't even use the update check feature of MO2 (i.e. give MO2 my Nexus credentials), but download each mod manually. That's what I've been doing since FO3 was released, an I never saw an urgent reason to change it.

 

However, I do realize how much time that actually takes, and I might be more enthusiastic about trying out mods than most users - so it's no surprise Nexus wants to widen their business to users who just want to spend money and get it done. I hope mod authors get the lion's share of that.

Edited August 7, 2021 by BillyG

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

54 minutes ago, BillyG said:

Right, thanks again for the background information on Nexus!

 

I haven't had Nexus Premium ever, and neither realize nor really care what it can do. I don't even use the update check feature of MO2 (i.e. give MO2 my Nexus credentials), but download each mod manually. That's what I've been doing since FO3 was released, an I never saw an urgent reason to change it.

 

However, I do realize how much time that actually takes, and I might be more enthusiastic about trying out mods than most users - so it's no surprise Nexus wants to widen their business to users who just want to spend money and get it done. I hope mod authors get the lion's share of that.

That should not come at the cost of our agency and control over our files or being forced into a system we may not want to participate in... 

I'm lucky that BT, Fusion Girl and all my mods are easy to work with, but I think I know my support end more to know I'd prefer to have BT and FG not be included in a modpack system because there's things a user should read and know before using these works to minimize support issues and that should 100% be my choice to do so. 

I decided to leave because my right to choose what happens to my work is being taken away. I watched the behavior of the staff and people who supported it, and I don't like it. Nexus in the end Alienated me away from their platform. 

[IBAGadget]

I will say this. 

 

I am a Premium member.

 

I like the ease of access to things on Nexus that that feature gives me.

 

However, I vehemently disagree with how they are treating the Mod Authors with their collections feature.

When my Premium membership expires in September, I will not renew it.

More often than not now, I look for the mods I want here on LL, even if it's only a clothing mod.

 

One thing that I don't think the folks running Nexus have taken into account is that some mods have prerequisites that need to be manually installed, and one-click collections download/install will not do this. Files need to be manually extracted from the archive, then copy/pasted or moved into the required area of your game folder. When someone one-click installs one of these collections that contains a manual install required mod, things are not going to get installed correctly, and the users game is going to break, or things simply will not work. This will cause a lot of grief and frustration for the user, and because they installed a collection, they are not going to know what the issue is.

 

What if you decide to install more than one collection, but some of the mods in those collections are different versions of the same mod? How is that going to affect the end result?

 

Again, your game will likely break and things will not work the way they are supposed to. The user will not know where the issue is. They will not know who or where to go to get support or help.

 

I have my own collections of the mods that I use, as well as some mods that I haven't used yet stored on my HD, in dedicated folders separate from the games that they are for. I can delete a mod from my mod list without losing the master file, so I can always re-install it later.

 

@TheBottomhoodofSteel As a mod user, I respect and support your decision to leave Nexus and host your work on your own site. I respect and support all mod authors who choose to pull their work from Nexus.

[BillyG]

13 hours ago, IBAGadget said:

One thing that I don'tthink the folks running Nexus have taken into account

Well, but this are mere technicalities.

 

Due to the download and update check stats, Nexus most likely has a full grasp of what popular mod "custers" are and what to concentrate their work on. Or simply look at the STEP guide, I have to admit I'd even pay if the website guide would be converted into a a one-click installer with some choice branches. At some point, even for me time is more valuable than money :-p - trying LL mods is fun, but installing snow, lod, ... improvements is just work to me.

 

When there is such a lot of money around as in the gaming industriy - which is bigger than the movie industry afaik - it's no problem to integrate scripts for mod collections into Vortex, which does exactly what's in the description and users do manually otherwise. Or pop up "MUST READ" boxes. Which is full circle - such a scripted installation system would have to depend on specific mod versions not getting removed, and newer ones having different installation prerequisites.

 

I hope modding will get better anyway, and with TES6 Bethesda will take the time to make it more plug and play, including removing mods. The current system allows for a lot, but going trough all the motions with merge patches, FNIS and the like - it feels like Bethesda does realize modding drives their sales, but never has taken the time to really adapt the FO3 engine for it.

 

13 hours ago, IBAGadget said:

As a mod user, I respect and support your decision to leave Nexus and host your work on your own site. I respect and support all mod authors who choose to pull their work from Nexus.

 

+1 even though creativitiy usually gets dominated by platforming, see Apple and Google stores and the like.

 

That's why I like LL so much, it's a bit like freedom and anarchy in comarison to 'empire of evil ' Nexus - and because I'm not using any Nexus installation system anyway, getting mods from LL and Nexus isn't a problem for me. Realistically, a more closed collection mod ecosystem might hurt ohter modding sites that distribute zips while Nexus Premium users only have to click.

 

We'll see, I'm simply curious because of the tech industry aspect, it's not like I'm planning to become a modder myself.

 

20 hours ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

I'm lucky that BT, Fusion Girl and all my mods are easy to work with

 

Thanks again for the interesting background, and all the best for you and you mods.

 

I have to admit Fusion Girl seems to be severe case of not backward compatible development. Whch is fine of course if it's getting improved. However, whenever I wanted to try it on FO4, a lot of stuff seems to have been written for yet-another-version of FG :-\  - but I see there's activity to get the clothing-armor mods compatible with the new version. For me, DD (bodyslides and HHS) is essential, so I'd probably wait for that.

 

But esp. FG with all attached gear would really profit from a "collection" targeting specific FG base :-> though I of course understand and applaud your reasoning, and your decision to keep your work under your own control.

 

Edit: Maybe someone should create a "mod author's union" :-) that seems to have worked with the writer's guild. Otherwiese it's divide and conquer.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by BillyG

[BillyG]

On 8/7/2021 at 10:35 PM, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

That should not come at the cost of our agency and control over our files or being forced into a system we may not want to participate in...

 

Open Cities is gone from Nexus, too - and while looking for it I found an interesting blog post from the author. I'll link and copy-paste it here, because it's a nice addtion to the information above concerning the viability of mod packs. https://www.patreon.com/arthmoor

 

Spoiler

  

On 8/11/2021 at 12:50 AM, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Is loverslab ok today? 

 

There's obviously a bug when copy-pasting styled text into to spoiler box - below in pl

 

 

 

Spoiler

My View on Mod Packs
 

Author Engagement

One of the biggest reasons many authors release their mods to the public is the engagement they get with their users. Communities can form around certain mods, the author and their users may generate a rapport with each other and come to build friendships outside of the mod itself. There are even examples of where the users and mod authors of certain things have gotten together for real world meet ups. None of which would be possible if people are never directed to where the authors choose to foster this kind of community engagement. The blind downloading of mods in a modpack makes that very unlikely, and in some cases it's not possible at all because the modpack doesn't tell anyone who made the stuff that's in in.

 

Mod Page Engagement

Mod are about more than just downloading files and running off to play. They always have been. Part of being able to properly set up a load order involves the need to view a mod's description page and its other documentation. There could be some quirky known issues that might come up. There may be some special instructions needed to make the mod work properly that have to be done after it's been installed. Mod pages may have special compatibility information about using them with other mods. There may be modular setups available to make the mod work in different ways depending on what the author provides and/or the users wanted. None of this information is delivered at all to a user installing all of their mods using a modpack. This will lead to problems they won't know how to solve and ultimately only causes more frustration.

 

Author Recognition

This flows from the first two issues. Modpacks promote the marginalization of mod authors by allowing people to skip over who made the content and thus who to give praise to, etc. When the authors of mods become faceless unknowns, the community is then more able to treat mods themselves as worthless commodities that should always be available for free and without restrictions. Some mod authors will lose out on extra money they bring in through Patreon or Paypal donations as well as modpacks will not display this information to their users. None of the prompts for this purpose are displayed. Not even the endorsement prompt is given, and even Nexus itself appears ready to devalue this for no apparent reason. Granted, not all authors care that much about endorsements (ie: I don't) but not even getting that possibility seems like an unnecessary slap in everyone's faces.

 

Support and Bug Reports

Let's face it. At some point someone is going to go looking for help. When a users has downloaded their stuff directly from the pages, they're more likely to know where to go when Mod X misbehaves or has a bug. With modpacks, this is no longer the case and they'll be much more likely to pick something at random and go to them based on the assumption that we all know what mods are in what packs. When users don't know who to contact it raises the chances significantly of them filing reports in the wrong places, or for the wrong reasons. Modpack makers will not be able to correctly deal with this without having to become virtual gurus, which is unlikely to be the case. So they'll have little incentive for taking on the burden of diagnosing issues and are likely to instead pass this burden along to us - the authors.

 

Compatibility and Stability

Modpacks lay claim to the ability to put an end to compatibility and stability issues. This is unfortunately not true in any way though. Especially for any game older than Skyrim Special Edition. The idea that 200+ mods can just be grabbed and put into a package and expected to work together for any of these older games is wishful thinking. Those engines simply don't have the ability to handle the content load due to restrictions on how 32-bit programs work. People are going to assume that someone who puts 200 mods into the package is also guaranteeing that this issue won't take place but they can't, and chances are that instead of the modpack maker taking the blame it'll be passed on to mod authors in some way. Even with games like SSE or Fallout 4 it's not always possible to have a giant list of mods work right when put together depending on exactly what they're doing. There are also a huge number of dirty mods with bad edits and things like deleted navmeshes that require manual intervention. No automated install system can deal with this without encouraging the unwanted modification of an author's files.

There are also issues with games that don't have official modding tools at all, such as Mass Effect, or that have inadequate tools for the job like the Witcher series. In both of these cases it is often necessary for mods to make direct edits to base game files which then leads to the paradox of not being able to install multiple mods into the game. These are technical limitations with these game engines that cannot be overcome by the use of modpacks. So it simply becomes impossible to force the issue. A system built around the idea that this is impossible needs to be able to take this into consideration and either block modpacks entirely, or allow authors of mods for such games the ability to hard opt-out of it if they know their mod could never work in a package.

Legal issues will also get in the way of a properly functioning modpack. Let's take as an example, my own load order. Wrye Bash currently shows it to be approximately 150 mods. It covers a wide range of things, centered around my village mods and Open Cities. This load order is not especially difficult to assemble, but it is also not possible to distribute as-is due to the presence of several compatibility patches and at least one actual mod I've modified for personal use. Despite my having the appropriate level of skill to actually build this modpack and set it up for others to use, it would not be legal to actually do so since it would have to include those files I can't distribute.

So why not just leave those parts out of the modpack then, right? The problem with that is that it's now a package that's no longer possible to run cohesively because the necessary "glue" is missing. It would no longer be composed of a well crafted set of completely compatible and stable mods. Which is why this kind of thing simply isn't feasible. My load order is certainly not going to be some exception to the rule either. Many of us will have done the same sort of thing and some guides that have been converted into modpacks are already including files they're not legally allowed to distribute.

 

Demands for Modpack Compatibility

At some point, users may find your mod and want it in the modpack too. This is likely to lead to demands from others that your mod somehow be made to work with this modpack even if you have no interest in modpacks at all. Other user communities such as reddit and Steam are already seeing posts from users demanding that some mod author alter their work so that it'll fit into Ultimate Skyrim. Sometimes up to and including openly asking someone else to illegally modify their work to make it happen, even after the author has said no. This is a situation that should never take place in a properly run community. If a mod author doesn't want to be involved, leave them alone. If they don't want their work included in some way, that desire needs to be respected.

 

Homogeneous Community

Another thing modpacks promote is the consolidation of mods around a select group. For Bethesda games this would likely start from the top 100 list on Nexus and if we're lucky may extend outward to 1000 or so. At some point if modpacks continue to be pushed as "the way of the future" then that future will be one where there's 1000 or so mods in use and any others getting published are ignored regardless of their quality level. Diversity in modding will be reduced to nothing since everyone is now running one of the 5 modpacks that ends up dominating the landscape.

If you don't think this won't happen, have a look at what happened with Minecraft. Prior to about 2014 or so, the Minecraft community was large, vibrant, and thriving. Numerous authors had quality mods being released. Then the movement toward modpacks began and in very short order, mod authors who wanted nothing to do with them were driven out of the community. Now, when looking for discussion of mods for Minecraft, one runs into basically "Feed the Beast" or "Better Than Wolves" and indications are both of these are bitter rivals of each other.

 

Discourages Learning

Part of the process in modding is learning how the game works and what can and can't be done with it. For the last 15 years we've enjoyed a steady growth in the number of mod authors who started off as users, primarily because they were able to engage the process directly and learn from it and eventually become proficient with the CK. When modpacks are the rule of the day, this learning is discouraged in favor of a "click click click" mentality. Since it removes all of the interaction points previously mentioned, it results in far fewer people becoming mod authors due to the absence of engagement with the process and leads to the homogeneous community issue through basic attrition as the existing pool of mod authors leaves the scene voluntarily or are driven out.

 

A Solution?

All of the various things mentioned here will tend toward a community that doesn't respect the contributions of mod authors, their rights, or bringing in new people to write new material. So what's the solution to these problems? It's surprisingly simple and goes hand in hand with one of the central philosophies of modding: Choice. Provide a choice to mod authors on whether or not they want their work in mod packs. The easiest way to accomplish this is for Nexus Mods to alter their API in order to allow mod authors to check a box to opt-out of any such system. The next option, while more difficult to implement, would be to get makers of the various modpacking tools to write code to support a community opt-out standard that can be added to their mod descriptions. Something simple like a tag: [ModPacks: NO] or [ModPacks: YES]. If a mod is found to contain one of these tags the tool can act accordingly. The bottom line here though is that authors should be given the choice. Users are not the only people entitled to that.

If market forces should become such that choosing to opt-out has a negative effect on a particular author, they can always choose to change their stance. In this way, everyone should be happy since everyone gets to choose.

 

Author Engagement

One of the biggest reasons many authors release their mods to the public is the engagement they get with their users. Communities can form around certain mods, the author and their users may generate a rapport with each other and come to build friendships outside of the mod itself. There are even examples of where the users and mod authors of certain things have gotten together for real world meet ups. None of which would be possible if people are never directed to where the authors choose to foster this kind of community engagement. The blind downloading of mods in a modpack makes that very unlikely, and in some cases it's not possible at all because the modpack doesn't tell anyone who made the stuff that's in in.

 

Mod Page Engagement

Mod are about more than just downloading files and running off to play. They always have been. Part of being able to properly set up a load order involves the need to view a mod's description page and its other documentation. There could be some quirky known issues that might come up. There may be some special instructions needed to make the mod work properly that have to be done after it's been installed. Mod pages may have special compatibility information about using them with other mods. There may be modular setups available to make the mod work in different ways depending on what the author provides and/or the users wanted. None of this information is delivered at all to a user installing all of their mods using a modpack. This will lead to problems they won't know how to solve and ultimately only causes more frustration.

 

Author Recognition

This flows from the first two issues. Modpacks promote the marginalization of mod authors by allowing people to skip over who made the content and thus who to give praise to, etc. When the authors of mods become faceless unknowns, the community is then more able to treat mods themselves as worthless commodities that should always be available for free and without restrictions. Some mod authors will lose out on extra money they bring in through Patreon or Paypal donations as well as modpacks will not display this information to their users. None of the prompts for this purpose are displayed. Not even the endorsement prompt is given, and even Nexus itself appears ready to devalue this for no apparent reason. Granted, not all authors care that much about endorsements (ie: I don't) but not even getting that possibility seems like an unnecessary slap in everyone's faces.

 

Support and Bug Reports

Let's face it. At some point someone is going to go looking for help. When a users has downloaded their stuff directly from the pages, they're more likely to know where to go when Mod X misbehaves or has a bug. With modpacks, this is no longer the case and they'll be much more likely to pick something at random and go to them based on the assumption that we all know what mods are in what packs. When users don't know who to contact it raises the chances significantly of them filing reports in the wrong places, or for the wrong reasons. Modpack makers will not be able to correctly deal with this without having to become virtual gurus, which is unlikely to be the case. So they'll have little incentive for taking on the burden of diagnosing issues and are likely to instead pass this burden along to us - the authors.

 

Compatibility and Stability

Modpacks lay claim to the ability to put an end to compatibility and stability issues. This is unfortunately not true in any way though. Especially for any game older than Skyrim Special Edition. The idea that 200+ mods can just be grabbed and put into a package and expected to work together for any of these older games is wishful thinking. Those engines simply don't have the ability to handle the content load due to restrictions on how 32-bit programs work. People are going to assume that someone who puts 200 mods into the package is also guaranteeing that this issue won't take place but they can't, and chances are that instead of the modpack maker taking the blame it'll be passed on to mod authors in some way. Even with games like SSE or Fallout 4 it's not always possible to have a giant list of mods work right when put together depending on exactly what they're doing. There are also a huge number of dirty mods with bad edits and things like deleted navmeshes that require manual intervention. No automated install system can deal with this without encouraging the unwanted modification of an author's files.

There are also issues with games that don't have official modding tools at all, such as Mass Effect, or that have inadequate tools for the job like the Witcher series. In both of these cases it is often necessary for mods to make direct edits to base game files which then leads to the paradox of not being able to install multiple mods into the game. These are technical limitations with these game engines that cannot be overcome by the use of modpacks. So it simply becomes impossible to force the issue. A system built around the idea that this is impossible needs to be able to take this into consideration and either block modpacks entirely, or allow authors of mods for such games the ability to hard opt-out of it if they know their mod could never work in a package.

Legal issues will also get in the way of a properly functioning modpack. Let's take as an example, my own load order. Wrye Bash currently shows it to be approximately 150 mods. It covers a wide range of things, centered around my village mods and Open Cities. This load order is not especially difficult to assemble, but it is also not possible to distribute as-is due to the presence of several compatibility patches and at least one actual mod I've modified for personal use. Despite my having the appropriate level of skill to actually build this modpack and set it up for others to use, it would not be legal to actually do so since it would have to include those files I can't distribute.

So why not just leave those parts out of the modpack then, right? The problem with that is that it's now a package that's no longer possible to run cohesively because the necessary "glue" is missing. It would no longer be composed of a well crafted set of completely compatible and stable mods. Which is why this kind of thing simply isn't feasible. My load order is certainly not going to be some exception to the rule either. Many of us will have done the same sort of thing and some guides that have been converted into modpacks are already including files they're not legally allowed to distribute.

 

Demands for Modpack Compatibility

At some point, users may find your mod and want it in the modpack too. This is likely to lead to demands from others that your mod somehow be made to work with this modpack even if you have no interest in modpacks at all. Other user communities such as reddit and Steam are already seeing posts from users demanding that some mod author alter their work so that it'll fit into Ultimate Skyrim. Sometimes up to and including openly asking someone else to illegally modify their work to make it happen, even after the author has said no. This is a situation that should never take place in a properly run community. If a mod author doesn't want to be involved, leave them alone. If they don't want their work included in some way, that desire needs to be respected.

 

Homogeneous Community

Another thing modpacks promote is the consolidation of mods around a select group. For Bethesda games this would likely start from the top 100 list on Nexus and if we're lucky may extend outward to 1000 or so. At some point if modpacks continue to be pushed as "the way of the future" then that future will be one where there's 1000 or so mods in use and any others getting published are ignored regardless of their quality level. Diversity in modding will be reduced to nothing since everyone is now running one of the 5 modpacks that ends up dominating the landscape.

If you don't think this won't happen, have a look at what happened with Minecraft. Prior to about 2014 or so, the Minecraft community was large, vibrant, and thriving. Numerous authors had quality mods being released. Then the movement toward modpacks began and in very short order, mod authors who wanted nothing to do with them were driven out of the community. Now, when looking for discussion of mods for Minecraft, one runs into basically "Feed the Beast" or "Better Than Wolves" and indications are both of these are bitter rivals of each other.

 

Discourages Learning

Part of the process in modding is learning how the game works and what can and can't be done with it. For the last 15 years we've enjoyed a steady growth in the number of mod authors who started off as users, primarily because they were able to engage the process directly and learn from it and eventually become proficient with the CK. When modpacks are the rule of the day, this learning is discouraged in favor of a "click click click" mentality. Since it removes all of the interaction points previously mentioned, it results in far fewer people becoming mod authors due to the absence of engagement with the process and leads to the homogeneous community issue through basic attrition as the existing pool of mod authors leaves the scene voluntarily or are driven out.

 

A Solution?

All of the various things mentioned here will tend toward a community that doesn't respect the contributions of mod authors, their rights, or bringing in new people to write new material. So what's the solution to these problems? It's surprisingly simple and goes hand in hand with one of the central philosophies of modding: Choice. Provide a choice to mod authors on whether or not they want their work in mod packs. The easiest way to accomplish this is for Nexus Mods to alter their API in order to allow mod authors to check a box to opt-out of any such system. The next option, while more difficult to implement, would be to get makers of the various modpacking tools to write code to support a community opt-out standard that can be added to their mod descriptions. Something simple like a tag: [ModPacks: NO] or [ModPacks: YES]. If a mod is found to contain one of these tags the tool can act accordingly. The bottom line here though is that authors should be given the choice. Users are not the only people entitled to that.

If market forces should become such that choosing to opt-out has a negative effect on a particular author, they can always choose to change their stance. In this way, everyone should be happy since everyone gets to choose.
 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by BillyG
Bugfix for text in spoiler block

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

Is loverslab ok today? 

[belegost]

On 8/10/2021 at 11:48 PM, BillyG said:

Open Cities is gone from Nexus, too - and while looking for it I found an interesting blog post from the author. I'll link and copy-paste it here, because it's a nice addtion to the information above concerning the viability of mod packs. https://www.patreon.com/arthmoor

 

Most of his standalone additions are gone, but he kept things like USSEP, ASLAL, CRF, The Paarthurnax Dilemma, and some others. I wonder why those in particular are kept why others are not? If he pulled USSEP, ASLAL and CRF it would have had a lot more impact on everything, maybe even forced Nexus to rethink stuff. Maybe.

 

Chance are though he would get a lot of flak from clueless people instead.

Edited August 16, 2021 by belegost

[BillyG]

13 hours ago, belegost said:

Chance are though he would get a lot of flak from clueless people instead.

 

I was wondering about that, too. I guess he didn't want to pull the rug away under nexus by removing USSEP, and/or because aof a lot of downloads he's getting enough money to leave it on Nexus - while promoting his new site at the same time.

 

With the removal of the individual mods, it's clear what would be lost if Nexus wasn't the one hub anymore: You cannot get an automatically updated dependency list of "mods requiring this mod" anymore, i.e. other mods that extend or patch this mod.

 

In cases like Arthmoor's Dawnstar that's unfortunate, and I had to spend quite a lot of time to get it integrated into "JK's Skyrim", "Dawn of Skyrim", "Great Cities of the North", "Open Cities" and "Transport Overhaul" - and I only succeeded because one patch author has recently put a guide on how to do it on Nexus.

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/one-of-skyrims-most-popular-modders-is-pulling-his-work-from-nexus-mods/

 

 

On 8/11/2021 at 12:50 AM, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Is loverslab ok today? 

 

There's obviously a bug when copy-pasting styled text into to spoiler box - below in plain text.

 

Concerining mod packs, I've stumbled upon "Wabberjack", and I have to say there's is indeed neither author recognition but only the "curator", plus mod authors cannot voice anything to the users because their respecive information is circumvented. The mod packs aren't as hassle-free and plug and play as the mod packs one-click installations imply... sure looks attractive though: https://www.wabbajack.org/#/modlists/gallery

 

Spoiler

My View on Mod Packs
 

Author Engagement

One of the biggest reasons many authors release their mods to the public is the engagement they get with their users. Communities can form around certain mods, the author and their users may generate a rapport with each other and come to build friendships outside of the mod itself. There are even examples of where the users and mod authors of certain things have gotten together for real world meet ups. None of which would be possible if people are never directed to where the authors choose to foster this kind of community engagement. The blind downloading of mods in a modpack makes that very unlikely, and in some cases it's not possible at all because the modpack doesn't tell anyone who made the stuff that's in in.

 

Mod Page Engagement

Mod are about more than just downloading files and running off to play. They always have been. Part of being able to properly set up a load order involves the need to view a mod's description page and its other documentation. There could be some quirky known issues that might come up. There may be some special instructions needed to make the mod work properly that have to be done after it's been installed. Mod pages may have special compatibility information about using them with other mods. There may be modular setups available to make the mod work in different ways depending on what the author provides and/or the users wanted. None of this information is delivered at all to a user installing all of their mods using a modpack. This will lead to problems they won't know how to solve and ultimately only causes more frustration.

 

Author Recognition

This flows from the first two issues. Modpacks promote the marginalization of mod authors by allowing people to skip over who made the content and thus who to give praise to, etc. When the authors of mods become faceless unknowns, the community is then more able to treat mods themselves as worthless commodities that should always be available for free and without restrictions. Some mod authors will lose out on extra money they bring in through Patreon or Paypal donations as well as modpacks will not display this information to their users. None of the prompts for this purpose are displayed. Not even the endorsement prompt is given, and even Nexus itself appears ready to devalue this for no apparent reason. Granted, not all authors care that much about endorsements (ie: I don't) but not even getting that possibility seems like an unnecessary slap in everyone's faces.

 

Support and Bug Reports

Let's face it. At some point someone is going to go looking for help. When a users has downloaded their stuff directly from the pages, they're more likely to know where to go when Mod X misbehaves or has a bug. With modpacks, this is no longer the case and they'll be much more likely to pick something at random and go to them based on the assumption that we all know what mods are in what packs. When users don't know who to contact it raises the chances significantly of them filing reports in the wrong places, or for the wrong reasons. Modpack makers will not be able to correctly deal with this without having to become virtual gurus, which is unlikely to be the case. So they'll have little incentive for taking on the burden of diagnosing issues and are likely to instead pass this burden along to us - the authors.

 

Compatibility and Stability

Modpacks lay claim to the ability to put an end to compatibility and stability issues. This is unfortunately not true in any way though. Especially for any game older than Skyrim Special Edition. The idea that 200+ mods can just be grabbed and put into a package and expected to work together for any of these older games is wishful thinking. Those engines simply don't have the ability to handle the content load due to restrictions on how 32-bit programs work. People are going to assume that someone who puts 200 mods into the package is also guaranteeing that this issue won't take place but they can't, and chances are that instead of the modpack maker taking the blame it'll be passed on to mod authors in some way. Even with games like SSE or Fallout 4 it's not always possible to have a giant list of mods work right when put together depending on exactly what they're doing. There are also a huge number of dirty mods with bad edits and things like deleted navmeshes that require manual intervention. No automated install system can deal with this without encouraging the unwanted modification of an author's files.

There are also issues with games that don't have official modding tools at all, such as Mass Effect, or that have inadequate tools for the job like the Witcher series. In both of these cases it is often necessary for mods to make direct edits to base game files which then leads to the paradox of not being able to install multiple mods into the game. These are technical limitations with these game engines that cannot be overcome by the use of modpacks. So it simply becomes impossible to force the issue. A system built around the idea that this is impossible needs to be able to take this into consideration and either block modpacks entirely, or allow authors of mods for such games the ability to hard opt-out of it if they know their mod could never work in a package.

Legal issues will also get in the way of a properly functioning modpack. Let's take as an example, my own load order. Wrye Bash currently shows it to be approximately 150 mods. It covers a wide range of things, centered around my village mods and Open Cities. This load order is not especially difficult to assemble, but it is also not possible to distribute as-is due to the presence of several compatibility patches and at least one actual mod I've modified for personal use. Despite my having the appropriate level of skill to actually build this modpack and set it up for others to use, it would not be legal to actually do so since it would have to include those files I can't distribute.

So why not just leave those parts out of the modpack then, right? The problem with that is that it's now a package that's no longer possible to run cohesively because the necessary "glue" is missing. It would no longer be composed of a well crafted set of completely compatible and stable mods. Which is why this kind of thing simply isn't feasible. My load order is certainly not going to be some exception to the rule either. Many of us will have done the same sort of thing and some guides that have been converted into modpacks are already including files they're not legally allowed to distribute.

 

Demands for Modpack Compatibility

At some point, users may find your mod and want it in the modpack too. This is likely to lead to demands from others that your mod somehow be made to work with this modpack even if you have no interest in modpacks at all. Other user communities such as reddit and Steam are already seeing posts from users demanding that some mod author alter their work so that it'll fit into Ultimate Skyrim. Sometimes up to and including openly asking someone else to illegally modify their work to make it happen, even after the author has said no. This is a situation that should never take place in a properly run community. If a mod author doesn't want to be involved, leave them alone. If they don't want their work included in some way, that desire needs to be respected.

 

Homogeneous Community

Another thing modpacks promote is the consolidation of mods around a select group. For Bethesda games this would likely start from the top 100 list on Nexus and if we're lucky may extend outward to 1000 or so. At some point if modpacks continue to be pushed as "the way of the future" then that future will be one where there's 1000 or so mods in use and any others getting published are ignored regardless of their quality level. Diversity in modding will be reduced to nothing since everyone is now running one of the 5 modpacks that ends up dominating the landscape.

If you don't think this won't happen, have a look at what happened with Minecraft. Prior to about 2014 or so, the Minecraft community was large, vibrant, and thriving. Numerous authors had quality mods being released. Then the movement toward modpacks began and in very short order, mod authors who wanted nothing to do with them were driven out of the community. Now, when looking for discussion of mods for Minecraft, one runs into basically "Feed the Beast" or "Better Than Wolves" and indications are both of these are bitter rivals of each other.

 

Discourages Learning

Part of the process in modding is learning how the game works and what can and can't be done with it. For the last 15 years we've enjoyed a steady growth in the number of mod authors who started off as users, primarily because they were able to engage the process directly and learn from it and eventually become proficient with the CK. When modpacks are the rule of the day, this learning is discouraged in favor of a "click click click" mentality. Since it removes all of the interaction points previously mentioned, it results in far fewer people becoming mod authors due to the absence of engagement with the process and leads to the homogeneous community issue through basic attrition as the existing pool of mod authors leaves the scene voluntarily or are driven out.

 

A Solution?

All of the various things mentioned here will tend toward a community that doesn't respect the contributions of mod authors, their rights, or bringing in new people to write new material. So what's the solution to these problems? It's surprisingly simple and goes hand in hand with one of the central philosophies of modding: Choice. Provide a choice to mod authors on whether or not they want their work in mod packs. The easiest way to accomplish this is for Nexus Mods to alter their API in order to allow mod authors to check a box to opt-out of any such system. The next option, while more difficult to implement, would be to get makers of the various modpacking tools to write code to support a community opt-out standard that can be added to their mod descriptions. Something simple like a tag: [ModPacks: NO] or [ModPacks: YES]. If a mod is found to contain one of these tags the tool can act accordingly. The bottom line here though is that authors should be given the choice. Users are not the only people entitled to that.

If market forces should become such that choosing to opt-out has a negative effect on a particular author, they can always choose to change their stance. In this way, everyone should be happy since everyone gets to choose.

 

Author Engagement

One of the biggest reasons many authors release their mods to the public is the engagement they get with their users. Communities can form around certain mods, the author and their users may generate a rapport with each other and come to build friendships outside of the mod itself. There are even examples of where the users and mod authors of certain things have gotten together for real world meet ups. None of which would be possible if people are never directed to where the authors choose to foster this kind of community engagement. The blind downloading of mods in a modpack makes that very unlikely, and in some cases it's not possible at all because the modpack doesn't tell anyone who made the stuff that's in in.

 

Mod Page Engagement

Mod are about more than just downloading files and running off to play. They always have been. Part of being able to properly set up a load order involves the need to view a mod's description page and its other documentation. There could be some quirky known issues that might come up. There may be some special instructions needed to make the mod work properly that have to be done after it's been installed. Mod pages may have special compatibility information about using them with other mods. There may be modular setups available to make the mod work in different ways depending on what the author provides and/or the users wanted. None of this information is delivered at all to a user installing all of their mods using a modpack. This will lead to problems they won't know how to solve and ultimately only causes more frustration.

 

Author Recognition

This flows from the first two issues. Modpacks promote the marginalization of mod authors by allowing people to skip over who made the content and thus who to give praise to, etc. When the authors of mods become faceless unknowns, the community is then more able to treat mods themselves as worthless commodities that should always be available for free and without restrictions. Some mod authors will lose out on extra money they bring in through Patreon or Paypal donations as well as modpacks will not display this information to their users. None of the prompts for this purpose are displayed. Not even the endorsement prompt is given, and even Nexus itself appears ready to devalue this for no apparent reason. Granted, not all authors care that much about endorsements (ie: I don't) but not even getting that possibility seems like an unnecessary slap in everyone's faces.

 

Support and Bug Reports

Let's face it. At some point someone is going to go looking for help. When a users has downloaded their stuff directly from the pages, they're more likely to know where to go when Mod X misbehaves or has a bug. With modpacks, this is no longer the case and they'll be much more likely to pick something at random and go to them based on the assumption that we all know what mods are in what packs. When users don't know who to contact it raises the chances significantly of them filing reports in the wrong places, or for the wrong reasons. Modpack makers will not be able to correctly deal with this without having to become virtual gurus, which is unlikely to be the case. So they'll have little incentive for taking on the burden of diagnosing issues and are likely to instead pass this burden along to us - the authors.

 

Compatibility and Stability

Modpacks lay claim to the ability to put an end to compatibility and stability issues. This is unfortunately not true in any way though. Especially for any game older than Skyrim Special Edition. The idea that 200+ mods can just be grabbed and put into a package and expected to work together for any of these older games is wishful thinking. Those engines simply don't have the ability to handle the content load due to restrictions on how 32-bit programs work. People are going to assume that someone who puts 200 mods into the package is also guaranteeing that this issue won't take place but they can't, and chances are that instead of the modpack maker taking the blame it'll be passed on to mod authors in some way. Even with games like SSE or Fallout 4 it's not always possible to have a giant list of mods work right when put together depending on exactly what they're doing. There are also a huge number of dirty mods with bad edits and things like deleted navmeshes that require manual intervention. No automated install system can deal with this without encouraging the unwanted modification of an author's files.

There are also issues with games that don't have official modding tools at all, such as Mass Effect, or that have inadequate tools for the job like the Witcher series. In both of these cases it is often necessary for mods to make direct edits to base game files which then leads to the paradox of not being able to install multiple mods into the game. These are technical limitations with these game engines that cannot be overcome by the use of modpacks. So it simply becomes impossible to force the issue. A system built around the idea that this is impossible needs to be able to take this into consideration and either block modpacks entirely, or allow authors of mods for such games the ability to hard opt-out of it if they know their mod could never work in a package.

Legal issues will also get in the way of a properly functioning modpack. Let's take as an example, my own load order. Wrye Bash currently shows it to be approximately 150 mods. It covers a wide range of things, centered around my village mods and Open Cities. This load order is not especially difficult to assemble, but it is also not possible to distribute as-is due to the presence of several compatibility patches and at least one actual mod I've modified for personal use. Despite my having the appropriate level of skill to actually build this modpack and set it up for others to use, it would not be legal to actually do so since it would have to include those files I can't distribute.

So why not just leave those parts out of the modpack then, right? The problem with that is that it's now a package that's no longer possible to run cohesively because the necessary "glue" is missing. It would no longer be composed of a well crafted set of completely compatible and stable mods. Which is why this kind of thing simply isn't feasible. My load order is certainly not going to be some exception to the rule either. Many of us will have done the same sort of thing and some guides that have been converted into modpacks are already including files they're not legally allowed to distribute.

 

Demands for Modpack Compatibility

At some point, users may find your mod and want it in the modpack too. This is likely to lead to demands from others that your mod somehow be made to work with this modpack even if you have no interest in modpacks at all. Other user communities such as reddit and Steam are already seeing posts from users demanding that some mod author alter their work so that it'll fit into Ultimate Skyrim. Sometimes up to and including openly asking someone else to illegally modify their work to make it happen, even after the author has said no. This is a situation that should never take place in a properly run community. If a mod author doesn't want to be involved, leave them alone. If they don't want their work included in some way, that desire needs to be respected.

 

Homogeneous Community

Another thing modpacks promote is the consolidation of mods around a select group. For Bethesda games this would likely start from the top 100 list on Nexus and if we're lucky may extend outward to 1000 or so. At some point if modpacks continue to be pushed as "the way of the future" then that future will be one where there's 1000 or so mods in use and any others getting published are ignored regardless of their quality level. Diversity in modding will be reduced to nothing since everyone is now running one of the 5 modpacks that ends up dominating the landscape.

If you don't think this won't happen, have a look at what happened with Minecraft. Prior to about 2014 or so, the Minecraft community was large, vibrant, and thriving. Numerous authors had quality mods being released. Then the movement toward modpacks began and in very short order, mod authors who wanted nothing to do with them were driven out of the community. Now, when looking for discussion of mods for Minecraft, one runs into basically "Feed the Beast" or "Better Than Wolves" and indications are both of these are bitter rivals of each other.

 

Discourages Learning

Part of the process in modding is learning how the game works and what can and can't be done with it. For the last 15 years we've enjoyed a steady growth in the number of mod authors who started off as users, primarily because they were able to engage the process directly and learn from it and eventually become proficient with the CK. When modpacks are the rule of the day, this learning is discouraged in favor of a "click click click" mentality. Since it removes all of the interaction points previously mentioned, it results in far fewer people becoming mod authors due to the absence of engagement with the process and leads to the homogeneous community issue through basic attrition as the existing pool of mod authors leaves the scene voluntarily or are driven out.

 

A Solution?

All of the various things mentioned here will tend toward a community that doesn't respect the contributions of mod authors, their rights, or bringing in new people to write new material. So what's the solution to these problems? It's surprisingly simple and goes hand in hand with one of the central philosophies of modding: Choice. Provide a choice to mod authors on whether or not they want their work in mod packs. The easiest way to accomplish this is for Nexus Mods to alter their API in order to allow mod authors to check a box to opt-out of any such system. The next option, while more difficult to implement, would be to get makers of the various modpacking tools to write code to support a community opt-out standard that can be added to their mod descriptions. Something simple like a tag: [ModPacks: NO] or [ModPacks: YES]. If a mod is found to contain one of these tags the tool can act accordingly. The bottom line here though is that authors should be given the choice. Users are not the only people entitled to that.

If market forces should become such that choosing to opt-out has a negative effect on a particular author, they can always choose to change their stance. In this way, everyone should be happy since everyone gets to choose.
 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by BillyG

[belegost]

2 hours ago, BillyG said:

Wabberjack

 

Shor's bones...

Edited August 17, 2021 by belegost

[BillyG]

2 hours ago, belegost said:

Shor's bones...

 

Fyi there's a topic on Arthmoor's site, too https://www.afkmods.com/index.php?/topic/5839-deletions-archiving-at-nexus-mods/

[DIYDeath]

On 8/3/2021 at 6:07 AM, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Nexus Implemented a change at the end of June with no announcement to authors that takes away our agency over our works by forcing us to "Archive" rather than remove older versions or remove mods we don't want to support anymore. They waited 2 weeks total to actually publicly announce it.

Their excuse was the collections bullshit. That removing outdated files would break collections or whatever, even though it should be the responsibility of the person making that garbage to keep it updated and prune mods that are no longer up... They decided that Collections matter more than author agency.

Nexus' excuse for not allowing authors to simply opt out of collections is because if they did the system would fail before it even got off the ground... Which if a system would flop because people didn't like it... Maybe it's not a good feature and you should invest in better features... But Nexus only sees the cash end of it, so ... 


Personally I watched the entire situation unfold in the private mod author channels and I was disgusted by the behavior Nexus staff exhibited to authors who objected. "Don't like it, get a lawyer" attitudes, ignoring author removal requests for over 2 weeks, going as far as retaliating against a user who tried to excercise their legal options (a author filed a DMCA after their request to remove their work was ignored, they were subsequently banned and accused of perjury...) , watching the owner himself mock people who disagreed, and later chose to leave (including talking about ways of making hidden mods available to get around people protesting the changes) , them allowing people who support them to troll, harass and bully anyone who doesn't explicitly agree with Nexus away from the author forums and server with impunity ... All that behavior to me shows that Nexus is no longer the author friendly place they purport themselves as being. They have chosen to step on authors in favor of chasing more money and I don't fucks with that shit. 

Nexus would be nothing without the authors who made them relevant. Them choosing to fuck us over ain't it and they're getting everything they deserve for it. 

And before anyone goes and gets it twisted. The idea that Authors would be nothing without nexus is bullshit. Modmaking existed long before Nexus, will exist long after Nexus. Nexus is just a host. There's a bunch of other places that mods can be hosted on just fine. Authors will be fine without Nexus. 

I pulled my work and left, I think it's the best course of action for me right now as I put too many hours of work into my content for someone else to come along and act like they own it. 

I opted not to put BT here because I just feel better having my personal work on my own site. I don't have a lot of time to set it up, but I'm working slowly at it. Mind you 60 mods won't pop back up overnight. I made a topic here to update my work. I'm considering redoing my site to make it look nicer, but for now the link works and that's all I need. 

 

Not to stir up drama but was it really bullshit? I mean as a small time mod author; I didn't really see any issue. They just didn't want files being deleted because that would mess up mod packs. I definitely don't agree with pay walling the mod packs; that's kind of scummy given that Nexus isn't exactly reliable as a service (if I pay for a service; I kind of expect it to work within reason) - but they're the ones who hosted the files for us and provided a system to collect any meager donations we might receive. That costs money, so do the employees they have to hire to maintain that ecosystem.

 

Plus the EULA already covered this; the major difference is they're now enforcing that clause and instead archiving older version of mods.

[Varithina]

On 8/7/2021 at 10:38 PM, BillyG said:

I haven't had Nexus Premium ever, and neither realize nor really care what it can do. I don't even use the update check feature of MO2 (i.e. give MO2 my Nexus credentials), but download each mod manually. That's what I've been doing since FO3 was released, an I never saw an urgent reason to change it.

 

The older version of premium was a damn good deal if you downloaded a lot from nexus, it was something like $60 for lifetime, and it uncapped your downloads, offered more servers and a few other things, it was nice, but some of the changes they are making are changing that, and from what I am aware the new premium will be a monthly sub, anybody with the old version however keeps it and the benefits, I do have the older version of premium, the one off payment and I think it was worth it considering the amount of stuff I did and still do download from them.

[OH1972]

On 8/3/2021 at 3:07 PM, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

Nexus Implemented a change at the end of June with no announcement to authors that takes away our agency over our works by forcing us to "Archive" rather than remove older versions or remove mods we don't want to support anymore. They waited 2 weeks total to actually publicly announce it.

Their excuse was the collections bullshit. That removing outdated files would break collections or whatever, even though it should be the responsibility of the person making that garbage to keep it updated and prune mods that are no longer up... They decided that Collections matter more than author agency.

Nexus' excuse for not allowing authors to simply opt out of collections is because if they did the system would fail before it even got off the ground... Which if a system would flop because people didn't like it... Maybe it's not a good feature and you should invest in better features... But Nexus only sees the cash end of it, so ... 
 

 

Except they allowed existing authors to opt out.  And except that you agreed to those terms with the EULA. And except that those terms are perfectly standard for distributors of content.

 

And expecting others to invest substantial sums of money so you can benefit from it and then accusing them of only "seeing the cash end of it" is pretty rich.

It says volumes that you expect 24/7 server access with massive bandwidth (needed given the number of mods on Nexus and the number of people downloading from there) and then have the audacity to sling mud at people when they "see the cash side of it". Newsflash: Money doesn't grow on trees. 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by OH1972

[OH1972]

10 hours ago, DIYDeath said:

I definitely don't agree with pay walling the mod packs; that's kind of scummy given that Nexus isn't exactly reliable as a service (if I pay for a service; I kind of expect it to work within reason) - but they're the ones who hosted the files for us and provided a system to collect any meager donations we might receive. That costs money, so do the employees they have to hire to maintain that ecosystem.

 

Collections are not being paywalled. The one-click functionality is reserved for premium users, which makes sense since they get higher bandwidth, which makes one-click downloads practical to begin with. Non-premium users can still use collections, they just need to download the mods one by one - which given the lower bandwith isn't half bad, since it allows you to take a break and do something else. It's still a massive step up from investing days into a new setup.

 

To quote Polygon: "As a comparison, downloading a list of 50 mods for Valheim took the mod staff 11 minutes as a free user; with a premium account, it took 3 minutes."