to the patreon complaints

[ChinaTam]

30 minutes ago, simhead666 said:

 

I thought that was just stealing random stuff?  ?

 

pretty much ? ... then sell it ??

[Qalefir]

I have a question more or less related to this :

Are creators on Patreon obliged to fulfil ? I mean legally.

Because I thought that it was donation only.

 

My point is that if I am right, it means that no creator "deserves" to be paid for their creations. They will be paid/supported if people are interested in putting money into it, and that's all. You are paid for a creation only if you work form soemone/something. You creates assets for EA or Ubisoft, you are paid for your creation. You do your own thing, you are supported and does not deserve anything because no one ask you to create this thing. Itis true on Patreon, it is true in real life.

 

Btw, modding = sharing since forever. You support a creator when you want to see them continue or when you believe in a project (big thing like Skywind...); That's all.

[ChinaTam]

Does fishermand**** actually ever upload anything new other than advertise paywalled sims. Are any ever released to LL?

[CanadianGhost]

On 6/11/2021 at 3:09 AM, Khlas said:

A lot of people seems to misunderstand or interpret the EA TOS.
 

First, every company is going to have an EA similar TOS with statements that they own their products and all. Well, it’s called logic.

 

however, this TOS is not going to erase any laws. There are laws protecting some contents such as animations under the art and intellectual properties, also if you take something and you change it from A to Z, it can’t be EA property anymore according to some jurisprudence, at least in my country. 
 

if you take animations as example, they can be played using unity or blender, even others games. You don’t need the game to play them, they do not belong to EA in any way. You could argue the rigs used is made by EA but it’s not true, the rig itself can be used for any others models than the EA models, and EA does not use that rig anyway since they use Maya.

 

for CC content, it’s a bit more tricky. You have to prove that 1) you make art, OR 2) the assets you use are modified from A to Z. For 3D model, well if you made them from scratch, it also belongs to you and it’s not EA properties. You can take the mesh out of the game and use jt somewhere else.
 

those does not belongs to EA at all despite being maybe mentioned by their TOS. They can’t say « you can add your content on our game » then claims people works and art just because it’s their property (even if it’s not anyway), it’s not how things works. The company use this statement to protect their products but it’s limited by the laws.

*sighs*

 

Let me make this real clear.  They have NO claim.  None.  Zlich.  Zero.  Case in point, if I decided to take an existing property and develop something in another medium and profit from it, then I am in violation and can be sued.  In regards to Sims, "you" do not own The Sims, "you" do not own Sims Wishes, "you" do not own Blender, or any other program you used to make said item, which had you read their terms of service, you wouldn't be arguing so blindly.  In addition, EA has given NO authorization for third party creators to profit from creations - what they do allow is the creator to make their content exclusive for a short period of time before it must be made available to the community and recoup some expenses for hosting a website and so forth.  If someone was able to produce enough content, a la Turbodriver, and follow the EA TOS, then they could make quite a living off of it.  If not, then at worst they can make a few bucks on the side and be happy with that however at any time, EA reserves the right to end this agreement.  So is it really all that wise to invest your time and energy into a game making mods as a job where you have no legal protection?  Now, Second Life?  That's a completely different story and different TOS.  Had EA introduced those TOS and that system, then I would understand their argument because they would be legally justified because creations made in Second Life by content creators ARE protected.     

 

People are so bloody stupid that they think that they can take someone elses property, invest time in said property despite having zero official connection with said company and property and then try to argue that because they invested time and energy into it, therefore they can claim ownership of it.  No EA, No Sims, no you making stupid animations and stupid cc.  It's really that simple.  It's akin to me making a Star Trek Youtube video, putting it up on Youtube and making money from clicks.  It's a no go because you do not own the property no matter how much I change it. 

 

The exception is if a property has become public domain or accepted by the company itself.  If not, there's not a heck of a lot you can say or do legally or otherwise.  Which is why i always get a kick of reading "TOS" from Sims creators who have zero idea that they have no protection under the law.

 

What you are probably thinking of is that I take an existing product, say a cellphone, in which say company A has a copyright on however that one is made out of plastic.  Ill make mine out of rubber and say that it's shock resistant.  That's a crude example but if i introduce enough subtle changes to the original product, that to the average customer they can distinguish between product A and product B, then you're legally allowed to do so.   But even those get challenged in courts because often times they bare to close of a resemblance to the original product.

 

[Gambit]

EA tolerates paid mod as long as they are free after 2 or 3 weeks. Not after 2 or 3 months.

 

I think (it happens some time) that if LL care about piracy & legality, they should care about that too.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Gambit

[Khlas]

4 hours ago, CanadianGhost said:

*sighs*

 

Let me make this real clear.  They have NO claim.  None.  Zlich.  Zero.  Case in point, if I decided to take an existing property and develop something in another medium and profit from it, then I am in violation and can be sued.  In regards to Sims, "you" do not own The Sims, "you" do not own Sims Wishes, "you" do not own Blender, or any other program you used to make said item, which had you read their terms of service, you wouldn't be arguing so blindly.  In addition, EA has given NO authorization for third party creators to profit from creations - what they do allow is the creator to make their content exclusive for a short period of time before it must be made available to the community and recoup some expenses for hosting a website and so forth.  If someone was able to produce enough content, a la Turbodriver, and follow the EA TOS, then they could make quite a living off of it.  If not, then at worst they can make a few bucks on the side and be happy with that however at any time, EA reserves the right to end this agreement.  So is it really all that wise to invest your time and energy into a game making mods as a job where you have no legal protection?  Now, Second Life?  That's a completely different story and different TOS.  Had EA introduced those TOS and that system, then I would understand their argument because they would be legally justified because creations made in Second Life by content creators ARE protected.     

 

People are so bloody stupid that they think that they can take someone elses property, invest time in said property despite having zero official connection with said company and property and then try to argue that because they invested time and energy into it, therefore they can claim ownership of it.  No EA, No Sims, no you making stupid animations and stupid cc.  It's really that simple.  It's akin to me making a Star Trek Youtube video, putting it up on Youtube and making money from clicks.  It's a no go because you do not own the property no matter how much I change it. 

 

The exception is if a property has become public domain or accepted by the company itself.  If not, there's not a heck of a lot you can say or do legally or otherwise.  Which is why i always get a kick of reading "TOS" from Sims creators who have zero idea that they have no protection under the law.

 

What you are probably thinking of is that I take an existing product, say a cellphone, in which say company A has a copyright on however that one is made out of plastic.  Ill make mine out of rubber and say that it's shock resistant.  That's a crude example but if i introduce enough subtle changes to the original product, that to the average customer they can distinguish between product A and product B, then you're legally allowed to do so.   But even those get challenged in courts because often times they bare to close of a resemblance to the original product.

 

i think you need to read again what I wrote because your statement is true for things that use EA assets. 
 

You can read the EA answer on the internet about those rules.

 

« As per the User Agreement, all user generated content (UGC) cannot be restricted by the creator if they use EA game assets. UGC includes not only CC or mods, UGC can also be screenshots from the game, videos, or content you upload to the Gallery. »

 

my statements has nothing with using EA assets. No need to start implying I am stupid or anything, it’s just rude. You can tell your point of view in others manners.

 

Im not starting to talk about laws but if you want to discuss about it, you can send me a private message. I am a student in laws from France so I’ll gladly take the constructive discussions about it.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Khlas

[Simsy McSimsface]

4 hours ago, CanadianGhost said:

what they do allow is the creator to make their content exclusive for a short period of time before it must be made available to the community and recoup some expenses for hosting a website and so forth.

 

1 hour ago, Gambit said:

EA tolerates paid mod as long as they are free after 2 or 3 weeks. Not after 2 or 3 months.

 

You guys will not like me for this, but the truth needs to be said:
There are no such stipulations like these anywhere in EA's TS4 TOS!
This 2-3weeks myth all started when a guru made a post on the TS4 forums to calm down a thread that was getting a bit rowdy and out of hand, but there's absolutely zero, nada, zilch on this matter in any of the official legal documents to back it up. It was basically - best case - his/hers private opinion on the matter.

[Gambit]

55 minutes ago, Spam Police said:

 

 

You guys will not like me for this, but the truth needs to be said:
There are no such stipulations like these anywhere in EA's TS4 TOS!
This 2-3weeks myth all started when a guru made a post on the TS4 forums to calm down a thread that was getting a bit rowdy and out of hand, but there's absolutely zero, nada,

 

I agree. The TOS simply forbid making money with their assets (models, scripts ...).

 

So I rephrase my self : "If LL care about piracy & legality, they should ban any patreon content from this forum. "

[Vthena]

2 hours ago, Gambit said:

 

I agree. The TOS simply forbid making money with their assets (models, scripts ...).

 

I've been looking at this, but I wasn't able to find anything in EA User Agreement nor The Sims 4 EULA

It's very likely that I missed it, of wasn't looking at the right place, could you indicate where you found this information?

 

And if what you're saying is true, most content creators are making their own assets and scripts. So there shouldn't be any issue.

[CanadianGhost]

3 hours ago, Khlas said:

i think you need to read again what I wrote because your statement is true for things that use EA assets. 
 

You can read the EA answer on the internet about those rules.

 

« As per the User Agreement, all user generated content (UGC) cannot be restricted by the creator if they use EA game assets. UGC includes not only CC or mods, UGC can also be screenshots from the game, videos, or content you upload to the Gallery. »

 

my statements has nothing with using EA assets. No need to start implying I am stupid or anything, it’s just rude. You can tell your point of view in others manners.

 

Im not starting to talk about laws but if you want to discuss about it, you can send me a private message. I am a student in laws from France so I’ll gladly take the constructive discussions about it.

when I said "you", i used quotes to imply the individual(s) in question, not to a specific person, or you in general.  And although you weren't talking about EA, we were but more specifically I was highlighting the difference between EA's The Sims and Second Life third party content creation - how both companies produce similar products yet with one, there is no protection while with the other there is.  Which means, the statement of being protected in some countries like you mentioned, has no weight which is what prompted me to reply specifically to your comment.  It was never an attack on you, just chalk it up to it being loss in translation. 

 

I also noted that all Sims content creators should also be reading the terms of conditions for programs that they use to make Sims content - it's not just about what EA allows and doesn't.  What if EA says, sure profit away but say Sims4Studio says, you cannot.  After all, you cannot add anything into the game without Sims4Studio. 

 

In any event, hope that clears it up but a side comment - stating that you're a student of the law in France or whatever the topic may be implies to the reader that you're an expert on the topic and that there should be no further discussion on it.  Even with your little side comment about "but if you want to discuss law, we can privately" even hints at such while that may not have been your intention, that is how it comes off as.  To that, I say bugger off but I will just chalk that up also as "lost in translation". 

 

Ultimately this is all about people who are trying to protect their small slice of revenue that they have coming in during a period of time when a good portion of the planet have lost their marbles and have embraced marxism just to be rewarded by watching the cost of goods increase over 10% in two months - and it's going to get much much worst.

 

Law.  Ha.  They stopped following that ages ago, especially in France...  Cheers and stay safe especially out in your neck of the woods. 

[Oops19]

1 minute ago, LittleDoxy said:

 

I've been looking at this, but I wasn't able to find anything in EA User Agreement nor The Sims 4 EULA

It's very likely that I missed it, of wasn't looking at the right place, could you indicate where you found this information?

 

And if what you're saying is true, most content creators are making their own assets and scripts. So there shouldn't be any issue.

When you contribute UGC, you grant to EA, its licensors and licensees a non-exclusive, perpetual, transferable, worldwide, sublicensable license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works, publicly perform, publicly display or otherwise transmit and communicate the UGC, or any portion of it, in any manner or form and in any medium or forum, whether now known or later devised, without notice, payment or attribution of any kind to you or any third party.

From my point of view a script which is using EA methods is still (c) author but as the author has retrieved the methods by reverse engineering and it only work for TS4 EA may consider it as UGC. For .package files in DBPF it's even more obvious that it is UGC.
To sell assets and scripts: Never ever use the DBPF format. Use a standard format like PNG or MP4 and remove all references to EA methods from script mods.

 

If one takes the time to use a copy&paste detector to identify copied EA code one will be surprised how much EA code can be found in various script mods. As long as it is a mod and requires TS4 EA can live with it. The same applies to CC with EA rigs, meshes, lights and swatches.  Are all sim rigs with a penis really new rigs or are some clones of the EA rig?

EA also accepts if UGC is behind a paywall for 2-4 weeks as it may allow mod authors to gain some money and produce more and better content.

[CanadianGhost]

21 minutes ago, LittleDoxy said:

 

I've been looking at this, but I wasn't able to find anything in EA User Agreement nor The Sims 4 EULA

It's very likely that I missed it, of wasn't looking at the right place, could you indicate where you found this information?

 

And if what you're saying is true, most content creators are making their own assets and scripts. So there shouldn't be any issue.

https://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/#section5

5. Your UGC

You are responsible for your UGC. You may not upload UGC that infringes a third party's intellectual property rights or that violates the law, this Agreement or a third party's right of privacy or right of publicity.

EA may, in its sole discretion, remove, edit or disable UGC for any reason, including if EA reasonably determines that UGC violates this Agreement. EA does not assume any responsibility or liability for UGC, for removing it, or not removing it or other Content. EA does not pre-screen all UGC and does not endorse or approve any UGC available on EA Services.

When you contribute UGC, you grant to EA, its licensors and licensees a non-exclusive, perpetual, transferable, worldwide, sublicensable license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works, publicly perform, publicly display or otherwise transmit and communicate the UGC, or any portion of it, in any manner or form and in any medium or forum, whether now known or later devised, without notice, payment or attribution of any kind to you or any third party. You also grant to all other users who can access and use your UGC on an EA Service the right to use, copy, modify, display, perform, create derivative works from, and otherwise communicate and distribute your UGC on or through the relevant EA Service without further notice, attribution or compensation to you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Here's the punchline - You also grant to all other users who can access and use your UGC on an EA Service the right to use, copy, modify, display, perform, create derivative works from, and otherwise communicate and distribute your UGC on or through the relevant EA Service without further notice, attribution or compensation to you. 

 

Hint: Anyone who uses Sims 4 is a licensee.

 

Hope that clears up the matter. 

[Vthena]

@Oops19 @CanadianGhost

 

Thanks to you two. But I do have another question. Are we sure mods are part of the UGC? English isn't my first language so I'm sure how to understand this sentence. Especialy the last part.

"UGC includes EA Account personas, forum posts, profile content and other Content contributed by users to EA Services"

 

To me it seems like they are referring to websites and such but not the actual games. Because they state "Games" under the next section and there is a clear separation between the two terms.

[CanadianGhost]

2 hours ago, LittleDoxy said:

@Oops19 @CanadianGhost

 

Thanks to you two. But I do have another question. Are we sure mods are part of the UGC? English isn't my first language so I'm sure how to understand this sentence. Especialy the last part.

"UGC includes EA Account personas, forum posts, profile content and other Content contributed by users to EA Services"

 

To me it seems like they are referring to websites and such but not the actual games. Because they state "Games" under the next section and there is a clear separation between the two terms.

For example, considering that if I wanted to make a website to share custom content that is released from creators (such asLoversLab, or someone's Tumblr page) or create a Wiki page to talk about the latest and greatest pokemon, there's nothing EA or any other company for that matter could do to stop me as that is already my legal right to do so as long as it doesn't infringe on their copyright.  So I can start a website and talk about pokemon (for example) or The Sims, but I cannot profit directly off of such.   So I cant start designing Pokemon clothes and sell that online or at some local flea market.   Of course, we see knockoffs all the time, hence why they're seized if spotted and the vendor that is caught selling them are usually in trouble.

 

So in regards to your question, UGC, stands for User Generated Contented, and as the TOS specifically states   "host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works, publicly perform, publicly display or otherwise transmit and communicate the UGC", then obviously it is referring to content itself.  And Category 7, GAMES, that you mention, is just that, a separate category in on itself, just like say Category 4  that is about Availability of EA Services and Updates" is it's own section.  If they intended to add to an existing category, you would see subsections like 5 a.)....  5 i.).... with a subheader above it.

 

Hope that clears it up.

[Vthena]

20 minutes ago, CanadianGhost said:

So in regards to your question, UGC, stands for User Generated Contented, and as the TOS specifically states   "host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works, publicly perform, publicly display or otherwise transmit and communicate the UGC", then obviously it is referring to content itself.  And Category 7, GAMES, that you mention, is just that, a separate category in on itself, just like say Category 4  that is about Availability of EA Services and Updates" is it's own section.  If they intended to add to an existing category, you would see subsections like 5 a.)....  5 i.).... with a subheader above it.

 

Hope that clears it up.

 

Since they cleary specify 'EA Services' and 'EA Game's' are two separate entities (hence the names) I think we should refer to the TOS for the specific game we're talking about. If the two were in fact the same thing, they wouldn't be dissociated in the TOS.

 

"7. Games : This Section applies to EA's games and game subscriptions" - Hence the previous section talking about services other than games. So not directly related to the Sims 4.

 

And, if section 2 to 5 are about the Sims 4. Neither Sims4Studio, nor TheSimsRessources should exist. Youtube videos should be demonetized. And they wouldn't hire Content Creators to make official content for the game.

https://simscommunity.info/2021/02/05/the-sims-team-has-hired-21-custom-content-creators-for-the-next-sims-4-update/

Edited June 25, 2021 by LittleDoxy

[CanadianGhost]

4 hours ago, LittleDoxy said:

 

Since they cleary specify 'EA Services' and 'EA Game's' are two separate entities (hence the names) I think we should refer to the TOS for the specific game we're talking about. If the two were in fact the same thing, they wouldn't be dissociated in the TOS.

 

"7. Games : This Section applies to EA's games and game subscriptions" - Hence the previous section talking about services other than games. So not directly related to the Sims 4.

 

And, if section 2 to 5 are about the Sims 4. Neither Sims4Studio, nor TheSimsRessources should exist. Youtube videos should be demonetized. And they wouldn't hire Content Creators to make official content for the game.

https://simscommunity.info/2021/02/05/the-sims-team-has-hired-21-custom-content-creators-for-the-next-sims-4-update/

 

So you think each EA Game has it's own unique license, interesting but no.   There will be different sections added but in regards to the fine print of ownership, that will be standard across the board.  But lets assume that is the case, how many EA games have UGC that you think what was portion was  linked from EA but somehow doesn't pertain to Sims 4?  What other EA games use UGC?  So you think they were talking about EA Sports?    And to clarify, you can pick up a physical copy of The Sims (which is why you see EA Games) or you could buy the digital copy and play it through their client (EA Services). 

 

Pretty cut and dry.   And also puts an end to this convo about any rights UGC have within EA regardless of how you want to interpret the contract.  

[CanadianGhost]

I do want to add that I do see a lot of Sims 4 creators also doing work with Second Life Marketplace.  Since you can obtain real world funds from your work in Second Life, content creators are protected there.  I can't recall who but there was a Sims 4 creator that was using meshes from Second Life and other platforms and they got busted for it.  Not entirely sure if it was just a cease and desist letter or something more. 

 

So if creators are looking to take their skills to another game that would not only protect them but offer them a larger customer base for their content and if the skills and software required are similar then I would encourage them to seek that avenue.  As I said, many creators do both.

[Oops19]

18 hours ago, LittleDoxy said:

@Oops19 @CanadianGhost

 

Thanks to you two. But I do have another question. Are we sure mods are part of the UGC? English isn't my first language so I'm sure how to understand this sentence. Especialy the last part.

"UGC includes EA Account personas, forum posts, profile content and other Content contributed by users to EA Services"

 

To me it seems like they are referring to websites and such but not the actual games. Because they state "Games" under the next section and there is a clear separation between the two terms.

If you really want to know how to interpret this better ask a lawyer or EA directly.
From my point of view EA develops the game and sells it together with DLCs and no one else is allowed to sell licenses for digital content.

Creators may sell their content in HQ quality and random format.

 

Anyhow everything contributed to TS4 becomes more or less "public domain". So it makes sense to decrease the quality for TS4, also EA uses low-poly meshes. Everyone may use the UGC (also of other EA games) convert it for other games and sell it (not for EA games) as long as no EA content is included. Most other games support much better quality so using TS4 content as a base for SL conversions may be a bad idea. Converting SL (or other games) content to TS4 is usually illegal.

[Excorsion]

2 hours ago, Oops19 said:

If you really want to know how to interpret this better ask a lawyer or EA directly.
From my point of view EA develops the game and sells it together with DLCs and no one else is allowed to sell licenses for digital content.

Creators may sell their content in HQ quality and random format.

 

Anyhow everything contributed to TS4 becomes more or less "public domain". So it makes sense to decrease the quality for TS4, also EA uses low-poly meshes. Everyone may use the UGC (also of other EA games) convert it for other games and sell it (not for EA games) as long as no EA content is included. Most other games support much better quality so using TS4 content as a base for SL conversions may be a bad idea. Converting SL (or other games) content to TS4 is usually illegal.

That's just your point of view..... which there are many out there.....bottom line is.... EA has a TOS for each game.....and unless you are some big shot lawyer or have one on retainer for such cases you will never know fully if you are against the TOS or not. you know the phrase opinions are like As&Ho^es everyone has one... well point of views are too.

 

That is the legality of it...the morality of it is much simpler.... If you are stealing another creators work to profit then you are a piece of crap... if you are protecting that piece of crap then you know another phrase that fits? birds of a feather.

 

BTW Oop19 i am not saying you as in actually you....

[Oops19]

6 hours ago, Excorsion said:

BTW Oop19 i am not saying you as in actually you....

Well, I guess I cloned some EA code when I couldn't call the original function but I don't put anything behind a paywall.

Some users want to pay for bundles which contain all animations and updated (Patreon) mods instead of downloading them from the authors and this created a market for it. As long as there are such players there are also people who sell it.
I knew this before I created my mod and I will not complain if one bundles and/or sells it and other users pay for it.