Devious Devices - Laura's Bondage Shop (11-dec-2023) V3.43

*Laura* · January 5, 2022

25 minutes ago, Tetras66 said:

My experience so far is that unless a package is active, then an NPC will always return to their starting position, unless they have something to do in a scene (force greets will also hold them in position, since they're an AI package). If there's unexpected lag, this can cause NPCs to leave an area before a scene progresses. In my scenes, I tell them to stay put while another actor is doing something. There's probably a better way to do it, I never checked how the vanilla scenes deal with that.

All actors have a default package that's used when they have no set AI package. They'll do the basic sandbox package in that area. During a sandbox them randomly walk towards markers that are enabled for sandboxing. If there is only one marker there they'll just stand there like an idiot.

1 hour ago, aurreth said:

It's the only AI package the guard has. I assume that if that one doesn't fire it reverts to the base NPC package. What I don't know is if this would cause some of the behavioral issues in SQ09, such as a tendency at various points to try and return to his starting location before the scene forces him to continue (he's been known to stop at the top of the first flight of steps and then go back down if the scene or script lags too much.)

In that scene, the guard follows a path of multiple markers in sequence. It's more reliable than one big walk. There is one of those markers on the top of the stairs. Him stopping could mean that the scene stopped, something else took control of him somehow or that he couldn't find the way to the next marker. My guess is the last one. Skyrim and pathing don't get along that well.

aurreth · January 5, 2022

23 minutes ago, Tetras66 said:

My experience so far is that unless a package is active, then an NPC will always return to their starting position, unless they have something to do in a scene (force greets will also hold them in position, since they're an AI package). If there's unexpected lag, this can cause NPCs to leave an area before a scene progresses. In my scenes, I tell them to stay put while another actor is doing something. There's probably a better way to do it, I never checked how the vanilla scenes deal with that.

So that's likely at least part of the problem. If someone is running a script heavy layout there's not enough fine control in the scene to stop the guard from phoning home if things lag. The scene is probably set up in phases, cell to stairs, up the stairs, top to 2nd set of stairs, up those stairs, into bedroom. Because the stairs slow him down things are lagging a bit at the top of them during the handoff to the next phase, and the guard tried to break free.

Part of this is that stairs are poorly implemented by Bethesda, causing the guard to slow down and not hit is marks on time. Laura's (the author) pathing tends to be very time dependent, as I found out when I put Laura (the character) in a hobble dress and she couldn't move from the counter to her chair because her movement would time out. So we need to ask Laura (author) to allow some extra time for movement during scenes.

aurreth · January 5, 2022

2 minutes ago, Laura said:

In that scene, the guard follows a path of multiple markers in sequence. It's more reliable than one big walk. There is one of those markers on the top of the stairs. Him stopping could mean that the scene stopped, something else took control of him somehow or that he couldn't find the way to the next marker. My guess is the last one. Skyrim and pathing don't get along that well.

In the AI package you can set the default walk speed for the actor. By default it's that slow, annoying walk that has you running over them every time you have to follow someone. Maybe bumping that up to "fast walk" would help the timing, so they'd hit the markers a bit sooner and have more processing time to find the next one.

aurreth · January 5, 2022

I would also like to say that chili is much better the second day

knots1353 · January 6, 2022

6 hours ago, Laura said:

Good to hear it worked.

Me too. Entertaining questline, even if it did kind of kill my favorite theory from going through these quests many moons ago before this quest was added:

Spoiler

I was more or less convinced that the "perfect girl" was actually the PC, and the rumors had all come from that brief stint pretending to be a slave to get the ledger... OTOH, maybe that's still true and this is all a misdirection...

*Laura* · January 6, 2022

12 hours ago, aurreth said:

So that's likely at least part of the problem. If someone is running a script heavy layout there's not enough fine control in the scene to stop the guard from phoning home if things lag. The scene is probably set up in phases, cell to stairs, up the stairs, top to 2nd set of stairs, up those stairs, into bedroom. Because the stairs slow him down things are lagging a bit at the top of them during the handoff to the next phase, and the guard tried to break free.

From what I understand, everything including scenes and packages are basically scripts. So someone with an overloaded script engine will also have issues with scenes and stuff. Then again, Skyrim also sometimes randomly mucks it up in stable games.

12 hours ago, aurreth said:

Part of this is that stairs are poorly implemented by Bethesda, causing the guard to slow down and not hit is marks on time. Laura's (the author) pathing tends to be very time dependent, as I found out when I put Laura (the character) in a hobble dress and she couldn't move from the counter to her chair because her movement would time out. So we need to ask Laura (author) to allow some extra time for movement during scenes.

I don't know of any package timers. The only procedure in the travel package is just traveling. And there are no flags or options for a timer. I just use the vanilla travel package. There's also a quest where a guy walks from city to city and that works fine. But maybe I'm missing something.

12 hours ago, aurreth said:

In the AI package you can set the default walk speed for the actor. By default it's that slow, annoying walk that has you running over them every time you have to follow someone. Maybe bumping that up to "fast walk" would help the timing, so they'd hit the markers a bit sooner and have more processing time to find the next one.

Don't know about the timing, but I agree that following a slow person is annoying.

12 hours ago, aurreth said:

I would also like to say that chili is much better the second day

That's because chili is always amazing.

9 hours ago, knots1353 said:

Me too. Entertaining questline, even if it did kind of kill my favorite theory from going through these quests many moons ago before this quest was added:

Reveal hidden contents

I was more or less convinced that the "perfect girl" was actually the PC, and the rumors had all come from that brief stint pretending to be a slave to get the ledger... OTOH, maybe that's still true and this is all a misdirection...

Your theory isn't completely off the table. Things could've changed or people were maybe lying. No one knows.

RequiemNoi · January 6, 2022

Currently have an issue where, upon talking to Laura or Katarina, I have the generic dialogue options for my other "devious" mods. Usually, they have their normal dialogue along with those. I'm not sure what changed - it literally worked on my last save (which I had to delete... some jazz with accidentally breaking the game by giving myself some story-related keys, haha). Anyone else have the same issue?

*Laura* · January 6, 2022

12 minutes ago, ComicTheSinner said:

Currently have an issue where, upon talking to Laura or Katarina, I have the generic dialogue options for my other "devious" mods. Usually, they have their normal dialogue along with those. I'm not sure what changed - it literally worked on my last save (which I had to delete... some jazz with accidentally breaking the game by giving myself some story-related keys, haha). Anyone else have the same issue?

They all have blocking dialogue which means regular dialogue or other mod dialogue should never show up. Since it worked before, what was changed before it stopped working?

RequiemNoi · January 6, 2022

30 minutes ago, Laura said:

They all have blocking dialogue which means regular dialogue or other mod dialogue should never show up. Since it worked before, what was changed before it stopped working?

I had added SL Defeat and NotSoFast - but NotSoFast isn't working, anyways.

Taki17 · January 6, 2022

1 hour ago, ComicTheSinner said:

Currently have an issue where, upon talking to Laura or Katarina, I have the generic dialogue options for my other "devious" mods.

I'd recommend taking a look at your load order again, and checking if the problem persists on starting a new game. Even so if you are using any sort of alternate start mods.

tznvlw · January 6, 2022

@Laura

From your posts, it seems that you have basically solved the problem of the DDLBS mod in SSE?

*Laura* · January 6, 2022

8 minutes ago, tznvlw said:

@Laura

From your posts, it seems that you have basically solved the problem of the DDLBS mod in SSE?

Not sure yet, but we may have found it. It probably has to do with how actors are teleported.

aurreth · January 6, 2022

10 minutes ago, tznvlw said:

@Laura

From your posts, it seems that you have basically solved the problem of the DDLBS mod in SSE?

What problem?

aurreth · January 6, 2022

12 hours ago, knots1353 said:

Me too. Entertaining questline, even if it did kind of kill my favorite theory from going through these quests many moons ago before this quest was added:

Reveal hidden contents

I was more or less convinced that the "perfect girl" was actually the PC, and the rumors had all come from that brief stint pretending to be a slave to get the ledger... OTOH, maybe that's still true and this is all a misdirection...

Except you overhear Holden talking to Daubney (or maybe the other way around) say "If we could use punishment as a reward 27 would be the perfect girl". So seems like the idea was already floating around before.

aurreth · January 6, 2022

2 hours ago, Laura said:

I don't know of any package timers. The only procedure in the travel package is just traveling. And there are no flags or options for a timer. I just use the vanilla travel package. There's also a quest where a guy walks from city to city and that works fine. But maybe I'm missing something.

The vanilla packages might not contain timers. But there are occasions in just about any program where it is necessary to tell everything to stop and wait a minute for things to catch up, just like you insert Utility.Wait statements in your scripts to make sure something like an Enable command has time to take effect. See @Tetras66 earlier post:

16 hours ago, Tetras66 said:

My experience so far is that unless a package is active, then an NPC will always return to their starting position, unless they have something to do in a scene (force greets will also hold them in position, since they're an AI package). If there's unexpected lag, this can cause NPCs to leave an area before a scene progresses. In my scenes, I tell them to stay put while another actor is doing something. There's probably a better way to do it, I never checked how the vanilla scenes deal with that.

Fixing the MoveTo problem seems to have mostly fixed the quest, but Guard does still glitch a little when escorting the player from the basement to the bedroom. Taking a look at his movement routine when you get a chance might be a good idea. I mean throwing down a quicksave before that scene, and reloading if he has issues with the stairs, would probably take care of the problem, but it can't hurt to see if there isn't a way to prevent him from trying to return to the basement if the scene timing is off due to lag or bad Skyrim pathfinding code.

Tetras66 · January 6, 2022

44 minutes ago, aurreth said:

The vanilla packages might not contain timers. But there are occasions in just about any program where it is necessary to tell everything to stop and wait a minute for things to catch up, just like you insert Utility.Wait statements in your scripts to make sure something like an Enable command has time to take effect. See @Tetras66 earlier post:

Fixing the MoveTo problem seems to have mostly fixed the quest, but Guard does still glitch a little when escorting the player from the basement to the bedroom. Taking a look at his movement routine when you get a chance might be a good idea. I mean throwing down a quicksave before that scene, and reloading if he has issues with the stairs, would probably take care of the problem, but it can't hurt to see if there isn't a way to prevent him from trying to return to the basement if the scene timing is off due to lag or bad Skyrim pathfinding code.

It shouldn't theoretically be a problem (to have no timing checks in a scene), since a scene just proceeds from action to action, sequentially.

The only time that time is an issue, is if the scene didn't prevent an actor from defaulting after they completed their action, but then assumed they'd be in a predictable place, because of only anticipating an x-length delay. This can sometimes break scenes, for example: if an actor needs to be somewhere specific to do something, like to activate an object, that they're now unanticipatedly too far away from.

I had a problem where I moved an actor to a new location, along with the player, but sometimes (about 1 in 5), before they could start a scene with the location's owner, I loaded into the location too slowly and they had already started walking home ? The scene was irretrievably stuck at that point and the players controls still locked. Oops.

I think Skyrim has some kind of fallback if an actor doesn't path quickly enough because they usually just warp to their location, but very occasionally (always ladders or stairs), they get stuck.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Tetras66

aihara111 · January 6, 2022

help, i had issue when come to fort hraggstad to save sirrina, when opening the container trap it's always cause CTD after the trap magic applied already checking bodyslide and everything is working normal

aurreth · January 6, 2022

40 minutes ago, aihara111 said:

help, i had issue when come to fort hraggstad to save sirrina, when opening the container trap it's always cause CTD after the trap magic applied already checking bodyslide and everything is working normal

Has nothing to do with Bodyslide. What other mods do you have that affect the fort, or make changes to chests?

aihara111 · January 6, 2022

1 hour ago, aurreth said:

Has nothing to do with Bodyslide. What other mods do you have that affect the fort, or make changes to chests?

Are something like jk skyrim affecting it ?

aurreth · January 6, 2022

1 hour ago, aihara111 said:

Are something like jk skyrim affecting it ?

I have no idea what that is.

Look, there are so many acronyms for various mods, and sometimes the same acronym for multiple different mods, that it is practically impossible for someone to answer that question. Please spell out the entire name of the mod, and if at all possible provide a link to it. "JK" doesn't tell me anything, and I have no way of going and looking at it to give you any kind of informed answer.

SilentAntagonist121 · January 6, 2022

40 minutes ago, aurreth said:

I have no idea what that is.

Look, there are so many acronyms for various mods, and sometimes the same acronym for multiple different mods, that it is practically impossible for someone to answer that question. Please spell out the entire name of the mod, and if at all possible provide a link to it. "JK" doesn't tell me anything, and I have no way of going and looking at it to give you any kind of informed answer.

JK isn't an acronym. The mod is literally called 'JK's Skyrim'. It's a city beautification mod.

aurreth · January 6, 2022

2 minutes ago, SilentAntagonist121 said:

JK isn't an acronym. The mod is literally called 'JK's Skyrim'. It's a city beautification mod.

Thank you. Sorry, I just keep seeing questions like "Does AFLCIO cause conflicts?" and then I have to figure out what they are referring to. That's why the link helps.

The mod page specifies that it does not modify any interior cells, so that wouldn't conflict or crash here. Something like Cursed Loot might, if it attempting to apply a trap to the same chest that the mod uses for this quest. Or some other mod that places traps on chests. What follows the trap is some exposition, the player getting stripped, some more NPC chatter, and then the player getting put in a yoke and set free. So the CTD immediately following triggering the trap is either the chest setting off something unrelated to the quest, such as Cursed Loot, or something conflicting with the paralysis.

Unfortunately it appears that Steam has just decided to reset my "don't update my shit you fucks" to "always update", so now I have to run the downgrader again before I can take a look at the actual scripts.

aurreth · January 6, 2022

4 hours ago, aihara111 said:

help, i had issue when come to fort hraggstad to save sirrina, when opening the container trap it's always cause CTD after the trap magic applied already checking bodyslide and everything is working normal

Ok, now that I've undone Steam's damage (again)... do you get the onscreen message about it being a trap? "It was a trap. A spell went off and you can't move anymore!"

Edited January 6, 2022 by aurreth

aihara111 · January 6, 2022

2 hours ago, aurreth said:

Ok, now that I've undone Steam's damage (again)... do you get the onscreen message about it being a trap? "It was a trap. A spell went off and you can't move anymore!"

Yes i got it, as soon as the message disappear when the spell effect start to appear on body the ctd is happened, but when I let the message not dissapear it's not going crash

aurreth · January 6, 2022

33 minutes ago, aihara111 said:

Yes i got it, as soon as the message disappear when the spell effect start to appear on body the ctd is happened, but when I let the message not dissapear it's not going crash

When you dismiss the message the chest is disabled (should disappear) and the NPC Hontaf is enabled (should appear). Nothing much special about him, he's a stock Nord in blacksmith clothes carrying an iron sword.

Ok, let's start with the obvious just to rule it out. What mods do you have that affect male Nords?

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Devious Devices - Laura's Bondage Shop (11-dec-2023) V3.43

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