Mods and Money!?

[Guest]

Just now, Pfiffy said:

There are others, that deserve more attetion than I get right now. Take Tasairis and Lazygirl, without them CF has not been possible. DD SE was not possible without Javi who recompiled the .dll, Zarantha edited the scripts for DCL. I have just put things together and brought them on the way. I'm feeling overrated for the ports themself...

That is cool that you give credit where credit is due, Javi and Zarantha deserve props as well, I am just saying, time is time, no matter what your doing, if its time to help others it is not overrated

[Pfiffy]

13 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

I wouldn't shell out for Hearthfire again, myself. Compared to Dawnguard and Dragonborn, it didn't add enough to be worth paying for. But for true DLC, not the "mini-DLC" they call their paid mods on the CC, I'd pay something. Not much, but something.

Well, i mean it should be at least at the volume of Hearthfire, to pay for it. What they offer now is not half as good as mods that you get for free.   

[Tyrant99]

I don't see it as a big issue, I think there's some pros and cons.

 

Pro - Incentivizes people to produce more content. +1

Pro - Give Modders resources that they may be able to re-invest and leverage into their Mods to produce even better content. For instance, hire voice actors. +1

 

Con - Can muddy the waters on collaberation if there is competition for 'market share'. Can lead to more scarcity mentality if Modders see the money as a finite resource that they have to compete over. -1

Con - Can complicate things. Re: new Nexus kickbacks. Becomes complex and derivative if Modders want kickbacks from other Modders using their content, and as a result can stifle collaboration. -1

 

Probably more pros and cons, but I think it's fine. Also, it's not going anywhere so might as well get used to it. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Tyrant99 said:

I don't see it as a big issue, I think there's some pros and cons.

 

Pro - Incentivizes people to produce more content. +1

Pro - Give Modders resources that they may be able to re-invest and leverage into their Mods to produce even better content. For instance, hire voice actors. +1

 

Con - Can muddy the waters on collaberation if there is competition for 'market share'. Can lead to more scarcity mentality if Modders see the money as a finite resource that they have to compete over. -1

Con - Can complicate things. Re: new Nexus kickbacks

 

Probably more pros and cons, but I think it's fine. Also, it's not going anywhere so might as well get used to it. 

Agreed

I haven't completely read up on how Nexus is doing things over there, but I do see your point on "Becomes complex and derivative if Modders want kickbacks from other Modders using their content, and as a result can stifle collaboration. -1

That's why I am more fond of the Patreon, knowing the money is going to the modder you want but it will not stop the occasional person from trying to claim rights to what others have made a few dollars off from

[biker354]

I guess it's the eternal discussion about spending money or not for mods. I understand that a mod author would want some financial compensation for the many hours he puts into building a mod, but in my opinion I think it is actually undesirable.

 

Imagine you have a mod and a user pays for it to use (regardless of whether paywall or via donation). Then this mod has some bugs and for instance ruins the user's high-end savegame. The user may understand that he bought a product manufactured by you and demands that you fix the bugs and restore his game, or give him his money back. You refuse, and then he decides to sue you for scamming, lying, spreading malware, property damaging, whatever he can come up with to use against you.

 

Now I'm pretty sure you won't have to worry that much in practice but the internet is full of trolls and greedy idiots. Once money is involved, you can get into all kinds of legal shit and if this guy feels like he will make your life hell.

 

So I think it is pretty good that for example the SKSE64 people refuse to accept donations. It is the one and only safe way to avoid legal shit.

 

A donation culture is okay, but it should preferably be kept small and any transaction must be strictly marked as non-refundable donation.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, biker354 said:

I guess it's the eternal discussion about spending money or not for mods. I understand that a mod author would want some financial compensation for the many hours he puts into building a mod, but in my opinion I think it is actually undesirable.

 

Imagine you have a mod and a user pays for it to use (regardless of whether paywall or via donation). Then this mod has some bugs and for instance ruins the user's high-end savegame. The user may understand that he bought a product manufactured by you and demands that you fix the bugs and restore his game, or give him his money back. You refuse, and then he decides to sue you for scamming, lying, spreading malware, property damaging, whatever he can come up with to use against you.

 

Now I'm pretty sure you won't have to worry that much in practice but the internet is full of trolls and greedy idiots. Once money is involved, you can get into all kinds of legal shit and if this guy feels like he will make your life hell.

 

So I think it is pretty good that for example the SKSE64 people refuse to accept donations. It is the one and only safe way to avoid legal shit.

 

A donation culture is okay, but it should preferably be kept small and any transaction must be strictly marked as non-refundable donation.

You make a very good point. Sadly because of some trolls things like this are possible. I do not believe someone should be donating to a mod until they are sure its something they like.

So lets say you got to play the original Skyrim when it was first released before buying it, after seeing that the game was broken would you still shell out the 60 dollars for it, I wouldn't have.

In the end you have a point as you describe it but I do feel that with modding, people have a chance to try before they buy. Those are the mods I am talking about, not every mod falls into this conversation 

[KoolHndLuke]

Agree with Biker354. You start muddying the water when you turn a "free" something into a product that you have to ensure works as intended or else. Many modders need things tested and despite their warnings- most users will blame your mod perhaps because of them being incompetent, lazy or ignorant about following directions and fixing their game right and maybe try to put you through some legal bullshit. We all know the scruples of lawyers.

 

One incident of a mod author getting sued over their mod will cause many others to pull their mods in cautionary response I think.

[Guest]

Interesting post.

Every person has every right to ask for money for the work they do. I say let the market bear out the value of the project. If it's a value, people will buy it. If it's not, well, at least they tried, but everyone has that right.

 

However, that stops when one person takes work that someone else did and incorporates it into their work and asks for money without getting the proper permissions.......which, as I recall, was exactly what happend with the 1st go round at steam, and why it was shit-canned a few days later.

 

Another thing that I don't want to see happen are mods like the Unofficial patches going paid-for. Not that Arthmoor doesn't deserve $$ for his work......but that Bethesda has an obligation to put out a working product that shouldn't require more money to actually use it as intended. If his mods are required to play the game, then it should be on Bethesda to subsidize it.

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

Interesting post.

Every person has every right to ask for money for the work they do. I say let the market bear out the value of the project. If it's a value, people will buy it. If it's not, well, at least they tried, but everyone has that right.

 

However, that stops when one person takes work that someone else did and incorporates it into their work and asks for money without getting the proper permissions.......which, as I recall, was exactly what happend with the 1st go round at steam, and why it was shit-canned a few days later.

 

I did not know about that happening in steam, I never really got "involved" with a community till I came here, and your right : "that stops when one person takes work that someone else did and incorporates it into their work and asks for money without getting the proper permissions"

[goldust]

well if its pay you want..i see no reason not to pay..but once you pay for something..it has to work..no too ways around it..now go and see just how many broken mods their are..on the nexus..i can think of a few right off the top of my head..so your getting paid for your mod,cool but for ten guys it does not work..so how many hours of your life are you going to give up to help those ten guys get a working product...it all comes down to pleasing your customer. make what the people want..get paid its real easy till you try in real life. and then it becomes a different beast.   

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, goldust said:

well if its pay you want..i see no reason not to pay..but once you pay for something..it has to work..no too ways around it..now go and see just how many broken mods their are..on the nexus..i can think of a few right off the top of my head..so your getting paid for your mod,cool but for ten guys it does not work..so how many hours of your life are you going to give up to help those ten guys get a working product...it all comes down to pleasing your customer. make what the people want..get paid its real easy till you try in real life. and then it becomes a different beast.   

How many thousands of mods are out there? like 50k last time I looked? And how many of them are even worth the download much less money?

[goldust]

23 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

How many thousands of mods are out there? like 50k last time I looked? And how many of them are even worth the download much less money?

true true..but there are a lot of mods..i use and would pay for..but its a mod downloaded at your own risk..will no longer work if your getting paid for that mod..it must work 100% of the time for 100% of the peeps who buy it..if not you will be returning money or being sued. i have to wonder if its really worth it 

[27X]

15 hours ago, -Caden- said:

Speaking of someone putting in a lot of time Pfiffy, I think modding for SE would come to a quick stop without all the conversions you do.

 

Pfiffy hasn't done a fucking thing. He's literally slapped some script and apps together he didn't even make, and in some cases has shit on his drive he didn't even ask permission for until after he converted them.

 

But good job on exactly highlighting why your premise is both wrong and incredibly flawed. I need to PAY someone to convert something they didn't even make to an upscaled port? Get the fuck out of here. As someone whom MAKES their mod content from line of code one and pixel one and polygon one, you haven't the faintest.

 

How about as the modder I choose what my mods are and do, and where they are put, and if ANY money is to change hands, it's not up to you. It's up to the author.

 

Quote

 pay for the stuff they offer in CC.

 

But you'll pay some to run a script on something they don't even own in ANY sense of internet ownership. Amazing. You'll pay for stolen mods, but official content from the author is verboten.

 

right.

 

 

1. Quote

   I am blessed with having a very good career, and modding to me is a hobby, like it is to most people

   And not everyone else is, and your assumption that they are is singularly arrogant and ignorant. It sure as hell isn't a "hobby" to me. You don't get to decide what I do with it just because you have numbers in a bank account. It also sounds like modding is a supermarket to you where you get to dictate terms and conditions on someone else's content. Nah. You don't.

 

 

Your blanket statement is both premised incorrectly and doesn't even attempt to cover the fact people are using openly derivative content to make non-unique, non-protected ancillary content they couldn't have made otherwise without code and assets that are someone else's property, period.

 

Mayhaps you should take a gander to the clusterfuck that is what sims and chinese QQ asset pay-4-steal circles have become before you start cheerleading for everyone to get on board the money train. Also the notion that your fetish mods deserve cash and someone else's doesn't is so full of hubris as to be live action sketch comedy.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, goldust said:

true true..but there are a lot of mods..i use and would pay for..but its a mod downloaded at your own risk..will no longer work if your getting paid for that mod..it must work 100% of the time for 100% of the peeps who buy it..if not you will be returning money or being sued. i have to wonder if its really worth it 

They'd only be following Bethesda's example. Release something that doesn't fully work, charge a truckload of money for it, discontinue support without fixing it and let someone else clean up your mess.

[GrimReaper]

http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral vs. Parlor.html

 

Patreon or any kind of paywall/"""donation""" system introduces money on top of that. There are a few issues with that. The biggest ones are that knowledge turns into monetary value - the current system mostly works because there's a lot of people who provide the groundwork for free, like script extenders, animation frameworks, libraries and so on. People can sell their animation packs or whatever because other people did the work to make that even possible for free, meaning they're the only ones getting a paycheck at the end of the day. When the next big thing in terms of modding comes around, things might change quick. People might want to get paid for every single step. Pay for meshes and textures (cause you're gonna need nude bodies for any kind of sex mod), pay for the script extender, pay for the framework, pay for the libraries, pay for the animations themselves etc. Withholding information on how to get things done also allows you to create a monopoly for yourself and shut out any competition.

 

Second, modding turns into a market with supply and demand instead of being a free place to share and realize ideas. Modders will create what sells instead of what they might want to do. If vanilla sex sells better than bestiality content, you might not see a lot of the latter.

 

Third, mod users will develop a 'I'm a paying customer!' attitude. We all know the kind of user that makes demands or stupid comments if mod this or mod that doesn't cater to their needs but when they're actually paying customers they've a right to do so.

 

Modding will turn into even more of a shitshow than it always was. There's an outside threat to modding thanks to the monetization craze that's plaguing the industry nowadays and from the inside - for very much the same reason.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, goldust said:

well if its pay you want..i see no reason not to pay..but once you pay for something..it has to work..no too ways around it..now go and see just how many broken mods their are..on the nexus..i can think of a few right off the top of my head..so your getting paid for your mod,cool but for ten guys it does not work..so how many hours of your life are you going to give up to help those ten guys get a working product...it all comes down to pleasing your customer. make what the people want..get paid its real easy till you try in real life. and then it becomes a different beast.   

again, As I said earlier, with mods you can "try before you buy" so don't just going paying for a mod before you tested it, I didn't say pay for every mod, and every modder should get money, but to think that all of them should be free? That's crazy

[goldust]

11 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

again, As I said earlier, with mods you can "try before you buy" so don't just going paying for a mod before you tested it, I didn't say pay for every mod, and every modder should get money, but to think that all of them should be free? That's crazy

never said they should all be free...but if i am buying something it best work the first time i use it ..and for most peeps that is the way they feel if their paying..sorry had a little glitch 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

 

Pfiffy has doesn't a fucking thing. He's literally slapped some script and apps together he didn't even make, and is some cases has shit on his drive he didn't even ask permission for until after he converted them.

 

But good job on exactly highlighting why your premise is both wrong and incredibly flawed. I need to PAY someone to convert something they didn't even make to an upscaled port? Get the fuck out of here. As someone whom MAKES their mod content from line of code one and pixel one and polygon one, you haven't the faintest.

 

How about as the modder I choose what my mods are and do, and where they are put, and if ANY money is to change hands, it's not up to you. It's up to the author.

 

 

But you'll pay some to run a script on something they don't even own in ANY sense of internet ownership. Amazing. You'll pay for stolen mods, but official content from the author is verboten.

 

right.

 

 

1. And not everyone else is, and your assumption that they are is singularly arrogant and ignorant. It sure as hell isn't a "hobby" to me. You don't get to decide what I do with it just because you have numbers in a bank account. It also sounds like modding is a supermarket t you where you get to dictate terms and conditions on someone else's content. Nah. You don't.

Your blanket statement is both premised incorrectly and doesn't even attempt to cover the fact people are using openly derivative content to make non-unique, non-potected ancillary content they couldn't have made otherwise without code and assets that are someone else's property, period.

 

Mayhaps you should take a gander to the clusterfuck that sims and chinese QQ asset pay-4-steal circles have become before you start cheerleading for everyone to get on board the money train. Also the notion that your fetish mods deserve cash and someone else doesn't is so full of hubris as to be live action sketch comedy.

Let me guess, you are also one of the people who believe the earth is really flat. You are EXACTLY the right amount of upset about this post..haha so how many points did you miss? Or Take a sentence  out of content by only posting part of it? 

 

Lets start shall we?  "I need to PAY someone to convert something they didn't even make to an upscaled port?" So where in any part of this post did I say you need to pay? 

Checking....

Checking.......

 Oh no where...very good mixing the words somehow that were not there

 

Next

"Pfiffy has doesn't a fucking thing." Well first off that's rude, and to say Pfify has done nothing? Or that some SHOULD pay Pfiffy? I said Pfiffy should start a patreon account because of the work done...but oh right by your standards that means you HAVE to pay that account....account point right over your head.....I can now see the water flowing over the edge of the earth

 

"How about as the modder I choose what my mods are and do, and where they are put, and if ANY money is to change hands, it's not up to you. It's up to the author."

When did I say it was up to anyone else but the modder?

 

"And not everyone else is, and your assumption that they are is singularly arrogant and ignorant. It sure as hell isn't a "hobby" to me. You don't get to decide what I do with it just because you have numbers in a bank account. It also sounds like modding is a supermarket t you where you get to dictate terms and conditions on someone else's content. Nah. You don't."

So I am trying to understand this one..When did I say I got to decide what you do with your mod? Or "dictate terms and conditions" Are you actually fucking retarded or do you just play one on the internet?

 

"Also the notion that your fetish mods deserve cash and someone else doesn't is so full of hubris as to be live action sketch comedy"

Again where do you get your fucking info, seems we have now enter deeper waters then what this post is about but hey quite the scenic route you took making points about nothing in this post..nice work champ ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, goldust said:

never said they should all be free...but if i am buying something it best work the first time i use it ..and for most peeps that is the way they feel if their paying..sorry had a little glitch 

 

WOW.... try before you buy means you have already used the mod, enjoyed the mod, you know the mod works, and when I say buy its a loose term , in other words donations to the mod...do not want to get you off track so you have a meltdown kind like y27k up there

[Guest]

1 hour ago, GrimReaper said:

http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral vs. Parlor.html

 

Patreon or any kind of paywall/"""donation""" system introduces money on top of that. There are a few issues with that. The biggest ones are that knowledge turns into monetary value - the current system mostly works because there's a lot of people who provide the groundwork for free, like script extenders, animation frameworks, libraries and so on. People can sell their animation packs or whatever because other people did the work to make that even possible for free, meaning they're the only ones getting a paycheck at the end of the day. When the next big thing in terms of modding comes around, things might change quick. People might want to get paid for every single step. Pay for meshes and textures (cause you're gonna need nude bodies for any kind of sex mod), pay for the script extender, pay for the framework, pay for the libraries, pay for the animations themselves etc. Withholding information on how to get things done also allows you to create a monopoly for yourself and shut out any competition.

 

Second, modding turns into a market with supply and demand instead of being a free place to share and realize ideas. Modders will create what sells instead of what they might want to do. If vanilla sex sells better than bestiality content, you might not see a lot of the latter.

 

Third, mod users will develop a 'I'm a paying customer!' attitude. We all know the kind of user that makes demands or stupid comments if mod this or mod that doesn't cater to their needs but when they're actually paying customers they've a right to do so.

 

Modding will turn into even more of a shitshow than it always was. There's an outside threat to modding thanks to the monetization craze that's plaguing the industry nowadays and from the inside - for very much the same reason.

"Patreon or any kind of paywall/"""donation""" system introduces money on top of that. There are a few issues with that. The biggest ones are that knowledge turns into monetary value - the current system mostly works because there's a lot of people who provide the groundwork for free, like script extenders, animation frameworks, libraries and so on. "

That is a good point and I can see where it can become problematic

 

"Second, modding turns into a market with supply and demand instead of being a free place to share and realize ideas. Modders will create what sells instead of what they might want to do. If vanilla sex sells better than bestiality content, you might not see a lot of the latter."

This I do not agree with, how does this happen by donating to a modder?

 

"Third, mod users will develop a 'I'm a paying customer!' attitude. We all know the kind of user that makes demands or stupid comments if mod this or mod that doesn't cater to their needs but when they're actually paying customers they've a right to do so."

I haven't seen this yet, I donate, like many others to a modder because we like the work they have already done, not for work they are doing in the future, and as far as demanding, I have not seen anything more demanding then the people on the mod pages, crying how they cant get something to work, pushing changes they want to see....In reality if 300,000 people use a mod and it works great, but it doesn't not work for 3 people, guess what, they should not have been on in comments bitching that the mod doesn't work and realize its on their end without being told

 

"Modding will turn into even more of a shitshow than it always was. There's an outside threat to modding thanks to the monetization craze that's plaguing the industry nowadays and from the inside - for very much the same reason."

 

I guess I haven't seen this threat, is this threat for modders creating mods, of for others worrying that everything might not be free?

 

 

[goldust]

lol its all cool man we are just chatting...my machine decided to have a key stick at that time..not mad or a bit upset..its all good when you talk it out..its great to see other viewpoints and to share ideas with others here at loverslab...you cant say anything over at the nexus unless its their viewpoint  

[Guest]

goldust I think your key is still sticking or something in that last comment didn't load for me, but I do agree that I am open for different opinions and people make points I had not thought of, I give as I get, I will have a friendly debate with someone who is also having a friendly debate

 

But then when others choose to come on and bash other people and take things completely out of context..my asshole puckers for a few minutes and well I give back what I get :). sorry if my last comment back to you come off as dickish, not intended

[Halstrom]

Yeah I don't buy into this "We can't sell mods in case people steal them" bullcrap.
Unfortunately users outnumber mod creators 100 to 1 so they will always get what they want at the price they want except when mod makers say "Screw you, make it yourself!" And many of them did just that after the Steam debacle where users dictated to Steam on what mod creators could do with their work. And so now we have Paytron where you have to lock your credit card into monthly donations instead of just one off purchasing or donations.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

 

***********

It's why I'm very strict on my permissions.
Working hundreds of hours every month, to see his work converted in few minutes and resold... nope..

Even if I need sexlab and some requirements to use my stuff, I do not resell at all sexlab or any of these ressources.
The game, sexlab and his requirements make a "player", my content is build to work on this "player".
I could made that for another "player" on another games, or even rendering..
If I do that it's also because people want and are ready to support me to made good creative anim and to work for them every day for new content on Skyrim..
It's not to see my creativity and all my work resell easly by others..

I support many patreons, not only from loverslab, but I know what work mean and how they made their "work", I support those who deserve something.

 

But here it's almost the same case who happened for "futasfmfan" (or something like that).
Take all the "paid" or free videos of 3d artists on patreon, put them togheter into a video.. shitty music in background.. 
He made that quickly and have much more patrons and much money than at least 10 artists gathered in his video...

Lot of artists was not happy of course, now his patreon is closed..

So yeah the creators need to be carreful and have a eye on their stuff if they do not want to be disapointed one day.
Unfortunately many people have no idea on how most of these things work or are made..
They do not know if something is made in few minutes, over tens or even hundreds of hours.

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

I would only ever give money to somebody if they were making something wholly unique, not fan content or using characters/games/assets/whatever they do not own outright, much less have a license to.

 

Mods fall under fan content.