Sending a message about Creation Club. Just my opinion

[xenic]

I'm going to try and keep this non ranty. 

 

The CC at it's core isn't a terrible game ending thing. The real problem is the way it was presented, with cheap versions of mods we already have and a down right insulting reason as to why they were there.

 

Overview of mods: 

 

 

There were a couple of good mods in there but only a couple. A big part of the problem is we are paying for these (if you get them). When you pay for something, there is an expectation of quality. It just wasn't there.

 

I've seen a lot of videos and posts talking about sending a message, don't buy any, boycott it, etc. I think this may be the wrong way to go about it. Bethesda at this point has pretty much thrown it's goodwill out the window and as a company I don't trust them very much. There is nothing to stop them from locking down their games  and making paid mods the future going forward. With that in mind, I think we should shift our response. Instead of boycotting the CC or saying "the free mods are better, I'm never buying one", I think we should buy the better one's on the CC as they come.

 

Now before you go and comment angrily, just hear me out. Bethesda is a company. They like money. In fact they seem to prefer money over community support, and they dumped a steaming pile of shit on us with the CC. Within that pile are a couple of decent mods. If we buy the "good" ones as they come out and neglect the others, it will show that yes, people are using the CC but only for actual original content. In short, I'm saying we should vote with our wallets, not as a boycott but as a selective purchase. The CC will keep rearing it's ugly head one way or another but at least we can redirect it to a better form.

 

That's just my opinion though.....

 

One last thought for the modders: If an ESL file lets us go beyond the 254 plugin mark, can someone make an ESL compiler so we can extend our modding capabilities. Something that will translate an ESP to an ESL? Maybe it's not possible but it was a random thought I had. 

 

 

[SlapMeSilly]

 

One last thought for the modders: If an ESL file lets us go beyond the 254 plugin mark, can someone make an ESL compiler so we can extend our modding capabilities. Something that will translate an ESP to an ESL? Maybe it's not possible but it was a random thought I had. 

 

The latest Creation Kit 1.10 does that. The only technical difference between an esp and an esl is a header flag. There are some limitations when using esls. There's an entry on the File menu to convert your active plugin to an esl. There mentioned restrictions are as follows: The plugin can have no more than 4000 forms, and the form id's must be numbered within a certain range. There is another entry on the File menu to handle the renumbering if necessary. Keep in mind that renumbering the forms will cause any saves currently using the esp to be invalid for that plugin (if saved in the esp). Also loading the esl and removing the esp will essentially be the same as removing the mod and installing a different one. If you choose to renumber and convert I would suggest saving the renumber into the esp so that further editing will not potentially have an issue with breaking forms in a subsequent release of the esl.

 

You can find more info on esls here https://www.creationkit.com/fallout4/index.php?title=Data_File

[xenic]

 

 

One last thought for the modders: If an ESL file lets us go beyond the 254 plugin mark, can someone make an ESL compiler so we can extend our modding capabilities. Something that will translate an ESP to an ESL? Maybe it's not possible but it was a random thought I had. 

 

The latest Creation Kit 1.10 does that. The only technical difference between an esp and an esl is a header flag. There are some limitations when using esls. There's an entry on the File menu to convert your active plugin to an esl. There mentioned restrictions are as follows: The plugin can have no more than 4000 forms, and the form id's must be numbered within a certain range. There is another entry on the File menu to handle the renumbering if necessary. Keep in mind that renumbering the forms will cause any saves currently using the esp to be invalid for that plugin (if saved in the esp). Also loading the esl and removing the esp will essentially be the same as removing the mod and installing a different one. If you choose to renumber and convert I would suggest saving the renumber into the esp so that further editing will not potentially have an issue with breaking forms in a subsequent release of the esl.

 

You can find more info on esls here https://www.creationkit.com/fallout4/index.php?title=Data_File

 

Ah, I missed that last in the CK. Thanks =)  That renumbering seems a pain though....

[Guest]

why not just merge plug ins?

[madorc52]

The real problem with the Creation Club is one of implementation, particularly how the CC content is stored, and the fact that each content update is going to break F4SE. There is no opting out of the content we don't want. Even if we only buy the good ones as they come, we are still left the BA2 archives of the ones we don't buy needlessly taking up space on our hard drives.
Many of the mods that bring us to this particular website are reliant on the script extender, letting Steam update Fallout 4 for new Creation Club content only ensures that we cannot play the game until f4se is updated in turn. 
I was hopeful of the Creation Club. Not just hopeful for new, original, and diverse content, but also as a way for talented modders to get paid for work. But then Bethesda rolled it out in the 

most anti-consumer way they possibly could. I want the Creation CLub to succeed, but not in its current form. 

[xenic]

I moved all the content off my main drive. The real problem will be when the CC has 100+ mods and we all have to start deleting stuff.

[Jazzman]

It is quite possible that you guys have to play a future Fallout 5 in an unfixed vanilla plus CC w/o much community support in case of emergency. In a monetized system only an ambitioned fool would provide you with anything for free. No more sex mods, hardly any immersive mods, always playing with the virginal pants on. If you want something done, do it yourself. Yep! Can't these people that promote their own demise even think a single step ahead? They still have hope in the quiver, hope that the old and the new paradigm might coexist in the future, that there would be still abundant free mods left, but that hope is irrelevant on the market of today - you simply can't have it both ways. Only one has a future, the other has none.

So, all the power to the kids, may the char creation sliders be with them. When the last nipple is gone they will probably realize that they have removed themselves from the game experience. Game over for the kinky little knight in his shiny new power armor painting, the umpteenth of all. May he never forget to keep his sole, barking or babbling companion happy in the bugged swamps of New Orleans with the awesome Bethesda swamp cupcakes in a cup, just 50 CC credits or 50 cts each, twice a day. Welcome to the Hallelujah Trail, the trail to nowhere!

 

Just my 2 CC credits.

[Veladarius]

I doubt the Creation Club will last too long overall. No new items have been added and they have already dropped the price on several items including making the Horse armor free. I still have my initial free 100 credits and likely always will.

[jyrttiah]

"Now before you go and comment angrily, just hear me out. Bethesda is a company. They like money. In fact they seem to prefer money over community support, and they dumped a steaming pile of shit on us with the CC. Within that pile are a couple of decent mods. If we buy the "good" ones as they come out and neglect the others, it will show that yes, people are using the CC but only for actual original content. In short, I'm saying we should vote with our wallets, not as a boycott but as a selective purchase. The CC will keep rearing it's ugly head one way or another but at least we can redirect it to a better form."

 

 

The only 'Creation Club' i'll consider using is this one:

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/24914/?

 

 

On a more serious note, Gopher's video sums it well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duuP2uSFzlU

 

 

IMO Bethesda's versions of mods can't compare to the free mods available and i doubt they will, simply because of the technical limitations of the mods.

So no new Far Harbor, Nuka World or similar style DLCs in CC.

[swords and sandals]

Well, they've obviously changed a few things. I was playing FO4 this afternoon when I got a pop-up message in the middle of a firefight telling me new content was available. The main menu advert now says Doom items are out. Nothing has been downloaded and there's no F4SE-breaking update pending, so ignoring it is that little bit easier now. Just as long as new content messages don't continue to interrupt the game if you're playing when they're released...

 

EDIT - apparently another F4SE-breaking update has now appeared. Wonderful. At least it sounds like it will fix the unofficial patch load order issue the last one introduced.

[Gameplayer]

The real problem with the Creation Club is one of implementation, particularly how the CC content is stored, and the fact that each content update is going to break F4SE. There is no opting out of the content we don't want. Even if we only buy the good ones as they come, we are still left the BA2 archives of the ones we don't buy needlessly taking up space on our hard drives.

Many of the mods that bring us to this particular website are reliant on the script extender, letting Steam update Fallout 4 for new Creation Club content only ensures that we cannot play the game until f4se is updated in turn. 

I was hopeful of the Creation Club. Not just hopeful for new, original, and diverse content, but also as a way for talented modders to get paid for work. But then Bethesda rolled it out in the 

most anti-consumer way they possibly could. I want the Creation CLub to succeed, but not in its current form. 

 

There are most certainly files for the downloadable content present on peoples machines.

 

Its really easy to miss that too, Im thinking a lot of people don't even realize it.

 

[sen4mi]

I'm going to try and keep this non ranty. 

...

Now before you go and comment angrily, just hear me out. Bethesda is a company. They like money. In fact they seem to prefer money over community support, and they dumped a steaming pile of shit on us with the CC. Within that pile are a couple of decent mods. If we buy the "good" ones as they come out and neglect the others, it will show that yes, people are using the CC but only for actual original content. In short, I'm saying we should vote with our wallets, not as a boycott but as a selective purchase. The CC will keep rearing it's ugly head one way or another but at least we can redirect it to a better form.

 

That's just my opinion though.....

 

 

But how do we know which ones are the good ones?

 

I have reached a point where I have some money I could spend, and I do spend some of that on games on an off chance that they might work. But that's mostly "toe in the water" sorts of spending, and I do not mind being shy about any sort of open ended commitment. (Personally, I avoid "rental play" systems, like battle.net, for example, though plenty of my friends play there.)

 

Of course, I am seeing a lot of angry comments about CC, but I see plenty of angry comments about everything. Mostly I have to ignore other people a lot. But that does not mean I want to just run out and buy stuff to see if its any good. But that also does not mean that I think I know of anything in CC which is any good.

 

(I already have the problem on Nexus - there's all sorts of things there that people claim are good which I have briefly tried and just plain do not want to bother with.)

 

Anyways, for example, I imagine I would be interested in content like described here: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/85159-content-opportunities-missed-by-bethesda/

 

Maybe something will be worth buying there, in a few years...?

[xenic]

 

I'm going to try and keep this non ranty. 

...

Now before you go and comment angrily, just hear me out. Bethesda is a company. They like money. In fact they seem to prefer money over community support, and they dumped a steaming pile of shit on us with the CC. Within that pile are a couple of decent mods. If we buy the "good" ones as they come out and neglect the others, it will show that yes, people are using the CC but only for actual original content. In short, I'm saying we should vote with our wallets, not as a boycott but as a selective purchase. The CC will keep rearing it's ugly head one way or another but at least we can redirect it to a better form.

 

That's just my opinion though.....

 

 

But how do we know which ones are the good ones?

 

I have reached a point where I have some money I could spend, and I do spend some of that on games on an off chance that they might work. But that's mostly "toe in the water" sorts of spending, and I do not mind being shy about any sort of open ended commitment. (Personally, I avoid "rental play" systems, like battle.net, for example, though plenty of my friends play there.)

 

Of course, I am seeing a lot of angry comments about CC, but I see plenty of angry comments about everything. Mostly I have to ignore other people a lot. But that does not mean I want to just run out and buy stuff to see if its any good. But that also does not mean that I think I know of anything in CC which is any good.

 

(I already have the problem on Nexus - there's all sorts of things there that people claim are good which I have briefly tried and just plain do not want to bother with.)

 

Anyways, for example, I imagine I would be interested in content like described here: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/85159-content-opportunities-missed-by-bethesda/

 

Maybe something will be worth buying there, in a few years...?

 

Out of everything on the CC currently, I like the prey suit and the doom stuff. Basically, stuff that modders haven't already done. 

[Veladarius]

The CC has potential but they lost the initiative withe it being rolled out so late, it should have been part of FO4 from the start BUT should NOT pre download data onto your system.

 

Some of the things they could have started with (and some they could still do or are doing):

- Each building style being constructible including fixing the houses in Sanctuary. Add the various stuff from Far Harbor and Nuka World (Old West in particular)

- All of the DLC's that are nothing but construction sets could have been in it.

- Importing of DC items such as weapons and such since technically ripping them from FO3 or FONV is technically stealing their work.

- new armors and weapons

- new followers (with quests if they can be fit into the LSP)

 

Unfortunately they are severely lagging behind modders as far as content and quality.

 

[sen4mi]

Unfortunately they are severely lagging behind modders as far as content and quality.

 

That, unfortunately, is going to be sort of a given: Modders have far more people (and we generate lots of junk mods, also).

 

The areas where they can shine are mostly going to be things most modders won't touch. Until / unless they have that, this probably winds up being another "horse armor" effort.

 

And ... that ... is what makes efforts like CC such a tough business model for them: it's basically an attempt to extend the modding community from just generating advertising for their products to generating another revenue stream for them. And there's just a ton of people issues to navigate there - I think everybody just needs to expect that this (and probably their next hundred attempts) will mostly wind up being failures. But also, people need to expect that they will be trying to learn from each fail (to the degree that they can, what with personnel changes and the costs of the attempts, and so on).

 

The problems include: how do they give back to the modders who produce quality content, and how can they filter out low quality content and trolls, along with "fun" stuff like dealing with the contracts and copyrights and so on that they have already bought into (and probably do not understand - law is a mix of gigabytes of broad rules and narrow legal precedents which no one has time to read combined with a body of public opinion which is largely formed by other millions of peoples' mistakes - it's a real mess).

 

Anyways, I do not have much hope of finding anything useful in CC any time soon, and I'm probably not going to spend time learning how to deal with the bugs it introduces in other mods just to try out some outfits (unless I think I will really like them). But I guess I sort of appreciate that they are trying to make the effort (though it's sort of painfully embarrassing to watch happen).

 

But at some point, if there's my idea of good stuff there, I might try some of it... Not today, though.