Strange Invisible NPCs - HDT not to blame?

[Lugubrious0ne]

MODLIST

 

Guards in certain holds (most notably Whiterun), as well as some other NPCs, such as Belrand and Fianna, have turned invisible at some stage in my last round of modding.

 

Not a single part of them is visible - head, weapons, shadow etc are all gone. They still talk to the player in passing and can we talked to or pickpocketed when pointing the cursor at where the noise is coming from - the hitbox is small, and slightly lower down than you would expect. These poor guards and NPCs can be made visible again through the awesome power of SEX. When a sexlab scene is initiated with them, they become visible and remain visible afterwards, putting on normal armor and clothes after the scene. But if I leave the area and return, they are invisible again.

 

Another thing - although I can talk to and pickpocket the invisible NPCs, I can't select them in console, until they have been sexed back into a visible state.

 

I thought HDT might be the culprit here - my modlist is pretty bouncy. But it doesn't seem to be - the NPCs affected are mainly (but not only) male. And there is no 'stretching to infinity' going on. There are also no HDT cloaks involved, and I'm fairly sure that this affects NPCs regardless of whether or not they are holding a havok object. I also have already installed the HDT invisibility fix -  no change.

 

I did a lot of modding prior to this, and as I was playing in Markarth, where the guards are 100% fine, I didn't see the problem (hah) at a time when I could have pinned it down to one mod.

 

So, might anything else ASIDE from HDT be causing the invisibility plague? Meshes, perhaps? Or am I just out of VRAM?

 

Thanks for any advice, friends.

 

(P.S. Sorry for that clusterfuck of a load order. I swear it worked fine up to now.)

 

[Uncle64]

Your left side in MO is wrong. Terrible wrong.

You also have issues in your right side, did you not fixed them when you bashed your patch?

 

And HDT can make npc:s invisible.

 

What is this?

+Update - Clean

 

This is forbidden to be overwrited, but you do it.

+PapyrusUtil - Modders Scripting Utility Functions

 

 

[Lugubrious0ne]

I don't understand what is wrong with the placement of the cleaned Update.esm? It's always going to load directly after Skyrim, and there are no resources in the left pane folder that are going to be overwritten.

 

If you want to help me with my load order, help, but don't just call it wrong. The game's been working amazingly well outside of this issue - absolutely no CTDs, and all my modded content seems to be where I want it. Don't get me wrong, actual advice is welcome.

 

I'm aware that HDT can make NPCs invisible, but that doesn't seem to be what's going on in this case. I might be wrong, but the majority of NPCs that are affected by the problem (e.g. male hold guards) have zero or close to zero HDT-enabled stuff. No HDT cloaks, no boobs, nothing except the properties needed for collisions for AIO.

 

EDIT: Ups, I might have misunderstood you. You mean the overwrite on papyrusutil? "Update - Clean" is just the official update.esm cleaned with TES5edit.

[yatol]

game load x

npc don't have x (no body in armor, npc is a mannequin that can't move or whatever)

x isn't load on the npc, it's load... somewhere else

 

when the npc start moving, either x get to his body, either his body get to x

same with mannequin if you replace their default idle by another one (it make them move, bye bye the mannequin)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Uncle64]

I don't understand what is wrong with the placement of the cleaned Update.esm? It's always going to load directly after Skyrim, and there are no resources in the left pane folder that are going to be overwritten.

 

If you want to help me with my load order, help, but don't just call it wrong. The game's been working amazingly well outside of this issue - absolutely no CTDs, and all my modded content seems to be where I want it. Don't get me wrong, actual advice is welcome.

 

I'm aware that HDT can make NPCs invisible, but that doesn't seem to be what's going on in this case. I might be wrong, but the majority of NPCs that are affected by the problem (e.g. male hold guards) have zero or close to zero HDT-enabled stuff. No HDT cloaks, no boobs, nothing except the properties needed for collisions for AIO.

 

It is simple, it should not be there, it should be in skyrim data folder not in MO.

 

You get all sorts of errors, it dont work to have skyrim masters load throe MO. That is pure bad modding.

 

About your load/prio order, you actually need to read read read read read and read more about how you place the mods and why.

 

If you fail to place 1 or 2 mods correct, you can get stuck scripts, skeleton that stacks, invincible npc:s.

 

Go back, run loot, use Wrye to finetune your load, make sure that your left side is corresponding to your right side.

[Lugubrious0ne]

x isn't load on the npc, it's load... somewhere else

 

The shadow realm?

...

 

So are you saying this might be an issue with the skeletons, maybe? Or animations? I haven't seen what you said with the mannequin, but I guess it makes some sense.

 

What is weirdest to me is that I can't select the invis NPCs in console, even when looking right at them, and clicking around the 'talk to' cursor. Spooky.

 

Still haven't 100% ruled out HDT as the problem. But I'm kinda out of ideas in that area, apart from turning HDT off altogether.

[Lugubrious0ne]

 

You get all sorts of errors, it dont work to have skyrim masters load throe MO. That is pure bad modding.

 

Are you sure? I haven't heard that anywhere else, and I've been doing it for a very, very long time with no apparent problem.

 

I had a quick look at my load order. Actually you're right, it was in a bit worse of a state than usual - so I tweaked it. I'm anxious not to change too much though, because, bad modding or no, I've got the game almost exactly how I would want it, and with zero CTDs. 

 

Do you think my load order might have something to do with the problem I am describing? 

 

Also, is it always essential that the left side and right side correspond exactly? How about in the case of XPMSE - should that be at the bottom in both left and right panes? Could be an oversight on my part.

[Lugubrious0ne]

The plot thickens - I've tried with a new game, on the exact same mod list and load order, and invisibility is not a problem, even in the busiest cells. So this has to do with an effect that I've been able to achieve during my main playthrough. Possibly adding mods partway through (Book of UUNP, several other armor mods) was exactly as bad as people say - it just seems odd that this was the problem that appeared.

 

I can't for the life of me see why only certain NPCs are affected, with no apparent connection between them. It's not like they all have the same armor equipped.

 

I'll keep working on it - I'm kinda attached to my character now, so not keen to start over just to see a few extra guards. Fresh ideas always appreciated.

 

EDIT: The hitbox for affected NPCs seems to be what you would expect. I hit Belrand with a Calm spell, and the spell FX shows up on the floor. Player headtracking also looks at the floor when near him. However, he definitely has not fallen through the floor. Is it possible that this is some kind of worldspace/navmesh problem? As in, the game wants to place certain NPCs models in positions that, through mods, I have made unavailable? And it requires the hard repositioning of something sexlab to make the models reappear? But a follower like Belrand seems equally affected in every cell he enters.

 

It also kinda supports this idea that, when invisible, NPCs (or at least Belrand), can't seem to move. And when they are visible, they do.

 

The whole thing seems so bizarre I have to solve it now.

[B52]

Have same problem and I am about to blame hdt, because certain npc's become streched on certain parts hdt afected, streched a lot till they disappear.

 

P.S.

 

Reload game helps - for a moment, and, not always same npc are invisible.

[Uncle64]

 

 

You get all sorts of errors, it dont work to have skyrim masters load throe MO. That is pure bad modding.

 

Are you sure? I haven't heard that anywhere else, and I've been doing it for a very, very long time with no apparent problem.

 

I had a quick look at my load order. Actually you're right, it was in a bit worse of a state than usual - so I tweaked it. I'm anxious not to change too much though, because, bad modding or no, I've got the game almost exactly how I would want it, and with zero CTDs. 

 

Do you think my load order might have something to do with the problem I am describing? 

 

Also, is it always essential that the left side and right side correspond exactly? How about in the case of XPMSE - should that be at the bottom in both left and right panes? Could be an oversight on my part.

 

 

Your left and right side is still not correct.

 

[Nazzzgul666]

 

It is simple, it should not be there, it should be in skyrim data folder not in MO.

 

 

 

Any reason for that? I have a virgin data folder and like it that way. It's the reason to use MO and i never had any problems with that.

 

@OP: It's not necessary to have all mods in the same order left and right. It's necessary for a lot of mods, though. Pretty sure it's less work for you to do that than for me to write a list of mods even if i mention only those i care about. 

[yatol]

 

 

It is simple, it should not be there, it should be in skyrim data folder not in MO.

 

 

 

Any reason for that? I have a virgin data folder and like it that way. It's the reason to use MO and i never had any problems with that.

 

he just click on something.exe instead of making a shortcut in mo

so he have nothing he have in mo when he load something

and that's why he think he have to leave skyrim bsa esm or whatever in data folder

[Uncle64]

 

 

 

It is simple, it should not be there, it should be in skyrim data folder not in MO.

 

 

 

Any reason for that? I have a virgin data folder and like it that way. It's the reason to use MO and i never had any problems with that.

 

he just click on something.exe instead of making a shortcut in mo

so he have nothing he have in mo when he load something

and that's why he think he have to leave skyrim bsa esm or whatever in data folder

 

Hu? yatol?

 

Btw Nazzzgul666.

I did check little more, if he have followed step guide he can have them there.

Did not find any pros and cons for it.

[Nazzzgul666]

 

 

Btw Nazzzgul666.

I did check little more, if he have followed step guide he can have them there.

Did not find any pros and cons for it.

 

So i wasn't really wrong. I agree that cleaned DLCs could be put into the data folder, they won't really change often. But my adivce to MO users in general is to install everything via MO (well, not skse and enboost), but more exceptions are more typing and i'm lazy^^

[Uncle64]

 

 

 

Btw Nazzzgul666.

I did check little more, if he have followed step guide he can have them there.

Did not find any pros and cons for it.

 

So i wasn't really wrong. I agree that cleaned DLCs could be put into the data folder, they won't really change often. But my adivce to MO users in general is to install everything via MO (well, not skse and enboost), but more exceptions are more typing and i'm lazy^^

 

 

Yea. My self have only SKSE and the Booster in Data, and my cleaned esm.

 

All in MO. And that is easy to have.

The Pro was that you keep your cleaned esm if you need to verify your game.

It is also good to keep your self updated.

 

[Lugubrious0ne]

Just to chime in and return to the original issue of the thread. I'm still fairly flummoxed, but that's always a great opportunity to refresh the load order, fix/replace/remove and start aqain, with my same character preset and a lot of content I was too scared to install mid-playthrough.

 

I don't know what the culprit was, although I still can't see any way that it was HDT. On the latest playthrough, every NPC is present and visible, no stretching, with an identical HDT setup. My gut says I might have messed things up by rerunning DyndoLOD without following the recommended guidelines. I'm probably wrong. If it was something that simple, someone else would have made this thread before me.

 

With regard to load order, left and right panes, I've sorted with LOOT, made the adjustments recommended by MO, and arrived at a result that is ultra stable and gives me the textures and meshes I want, in the right place. And there is very little that is inconsistent with recommended load orders from mod pages. The only real gripe is a few duplicated items and recipes between Hunterborn/RND/CACO, but that's not a left pane issue.

 

If anyone could point me at a game-breaking problem, that's a different matter, but for now, everything is working as expected.

 

 

[B52]

still, i'm not convinced, even then character sometimes after sex scenes is being ported to some point high abowe bleakwind basin and all hdt streching starts in the same point, disappearances are conected to it too, so, could someone explain me why and do not try to tell me about bad load order, I use LOOT (what could have gone wrong, right?)

 

P.S. (voce per umbras)

[17skyrim]

I've started having the stretch and invisible problem over the last few days.   Problems I have had previously usually related to followers and follower mods.  My game improved as I disabled a slew of followers and follower mods.  But I'm still left with invisible NPCs in some areas.   

 

Edit:  Reverting to older version of Billy SLAL fixed a lot of stretching and invisibility problems.  The latest version may have a bug.

[RW311]

2 hours ago, 17skyrim said:

I've started having the stretch and invisible problem over the last few days.   Problems I have had previously usually related to followers and follower mods.  My game improved as I disabled a slew of followers and follower mods.  But I'm still left with invisible NPCs in some areas.   

check here.

[17skyrim]

On 9/19/2019 at 11:41 PM, 17skyrim said:

I've started having the stretch and invisible problem over the last few days.   Problems I have had previously usually related to followers and follower mods.  My game improved as I disabled a slew of followers and follower mods.  But I'm still left with invisible NPCs in some areas.   

 

Edit:  Reverting to older version of Billy SLAL fixed a lot of stretching and invisibility problems.  The latest version may have a bug.

I discovered a number of Mods can cause problems.  After disabling and enabling a lot of mods, I discovered the mod that was creating problems was SL Approach.  It had stopped working for whatever reason, which is always a sign that there is a conflict with the mod and something else.  

 

The latest version of Billy SLAL is now working without issues. 

[LavenderCat]

This problem popped up for me recently, and something I've noticed with this issue (As I just started having it) it seems to be tied to Skooma Whore mods, as that seems to be one of the common denominators we all have in our load order (as far as I know). I know I'm many MANY years late, but I figured I'd share something interesting that I found out, in case that helps.

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

1 minute ago, LavenderCat said:

it seems to be tied to Skooma Whore mods,

Tons of users have Skooma Whore and dont have problem

 

This problem usually has to do with hdt 

 

There is a fix for hdt users that requires user to modify hdt file

 

Hi, you can try this. It works for me. Open the "hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml" or what ever your controlling .xml is for cape, armor, whatever, with Notepad++. Search for the lines: <hkparam name="maxLinearVelocity"> and <hkparam name="maxAngularVelocity">. You will see a parameter like <hkparam name="value">255</hkparam>. If your value is not 255, change it to 255. The stretching appears to happen when the mesh movement moves faster than the max velocity integer. If you have hdt cape, You can easily reproduce stretching simply by using Whirlwind Sprint shout. Once you change all above parameters, the stretch no longer happens. I did this for Clothes and Cloaks. I have not had any problems with stretching or invisibility on NPC or Followers. I do not use any changes to HAVOK ini. Of course your computer setup may come in to play, so results may very. Just thought I would share, because i used to have the same problems. I'm currently using HDT Clothes and Robes for all NPC's, HDT Cloaks(Myself and Sofia), HDT Underwear (Myself and Sofia), Custom version of HDT Marie Rose Hair (Myself), HDT Changeable Hair Ribbons for Marie Rose Hair (Myself), HDT Weapon Sling for XPMSE(Myself), and custom Hats/Hoods with HDT Hair (Myself), and of coures HDT Bodies (CBBE HDT including Sofia) all with no problem. Good luck, hopes this helps you to.

 

 

 

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

8 minutes ago, LavenderCat said:

This problem popped up for me recently, and something I've noticed with this issue (As I just started having it) it seems to be tied to Skooma Whore mods, as that seems to be one of the common denominators we all have in our load order (as far as I know). I know I'm many MANY years late, but I figured I'd share something interesting that I found out, in case that helps.

 

 

You can try mine, just save and backup your for good measure.

 

 

hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml

[LavenderCat]

18 hours ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

Tons of users have Skooma Whore and dont have problem

 

This problem usually has to do with hdt 

 

There is a fix for hdt users that requires user to modify hdt file

 

Hi, you can try this. It works for me. Open the "hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml" or what ever your controlling .xml is for cape, armor, whatever, with Notepad++. Search for the lines: <hkparam name="maxLinearVelocity"> and <hkparam name="maxAngularVelocity">. You will see a parameter like <hkparam name="value">255</hkparam>. If your value is not 255, change it to 255. The stretching appears to happen when the mesh movement moves faster than the max velocity integer. If you have hdt cape, You can easily reproduce stretching simply by using Whirlwind Sprint shout. Once you change all above parameters, the stretch no longer happens. I did this for Clothes and Cloaks. I have not had any problems with stretching or invisibility on NPC or Followers. I do not use any changes to HAVOK ini. Of course your computer setup may come in to play, so results may very. Just thought I would share, because i used to have the same problems. I'm currently using HDT Clothes and Robes for all NPC's, HDT Cloaks(Myself and Sofia), HDT Underwear (Myself and Sofia), Custom version of HDT Marie Rose Hair (Myself), HDT Changeable Hair Ribbons for Marie Rose Hair (Myself), HDT Weapon Sling for XPMSE(Myself), and custom Hats/Hoods with HDT Hair (Myself), and of coures HDT Bodies (CBBE HDT including Sofia) all with no problem. Good luck, hopes this helps you to.

 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

 

 

You can try mine, just save and backup your for good measure.

 

 

hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml 69.82 kB · 1 download

Thanks! I'll try both of these and see if it changes!
I'll try changing the ones I have (I have multiple, could that be causing the problem?) and if that doesn't work, I'll try replacing them with the one you have!
Again, thanks for the tip!

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

1 hour ago, LavenderCat said:

 

Thanks! I'll try both of these and see if it changes!
I'll try changing the ones I have (I have multiple, could that be causing the problem?) and if that doesn't work, I'll try replacing them with the one you have!
Again, thanks for the tip!

You have to look at all BBP.xml files(hdt cloaks,hair,anything bbp.xml)

 

With the main 1 in hdt physics mod there were I believe 6 instance you have to change.