I realized the other day: The game is fun even tho the engine really sucks ass.

[Monsto Brukes]

I read this reddit post that's a summary of this full article about why Fallout 4 sucks so bad that bla bla bla... you know... your typical hyperbolic circle jerk hate.

 

But . . . 

 

He made a great intro to point #7:

 

7. The UI is still built around the Pip-Boy​

 

Bethesda are not terrible at art design, and they are, to some extent, capable of fixing the worst flaws of their previous games. And yet, here we are, in the year 2016, and they have once again delivered one of the worst user interfaces of the Windows era.

 

The rest of point 7 is hypocritical ranting. "Oh they're not terrible at UI" followed up with "the pip boy UI is terrible" . . . but that notwithstanding, he makes a very salient point in that 2nd sentence.

 

Think about ANY OTHER modern game of the genre. For me, the comparison is with Tomb Raider 2013, and FarCry 3/4. I'm not going to go down some arbitrary list of comparisons as an abstract comparison is enough. I mean lighting alone. . . 

 

In 2011, Skyrim was beautiful and they did a TON with an engine that was a bit dated. It looked good and played well. 5 years ago that was fine. 

 

Today, F4 is fun... enough. But the engine is now horribly dated. And I find it incredibly annoying because just imagine for a moment how much more fun the game could be given current tech?

 

Back in the 90s, id wrote and rewrote their primary game engine 5 times in 8 years. Each iteration played and worked VASTLY different/better than the previous iteration. Digital Extremes did something very similar starting with Unreal 1. Unreal 04 was a VASTLY different/capable engine than unreal 97.

 

This game engine is now 15 years old and it has the same problems, artifacts and limitations that it's always had. There's no way in hell that they could even CONSIDER doing a modern main menu or skills screen. The engine simply doesn't have the widgetry. And they never consider multiplayer for any of these games because the tired-ass engine simply can't do it. "focus on good single player experience" is just a marketing excuse.

 

I dunno . . . I'm just ranting cuz it's annoying. We've got another 3 yrs of updates/dlc to deal with in this ugly/old engine, not to mention whatever 'follow up' release there is. I'd love to be playing this game in a more modern engine.

 

[windpl]

And you see, there is this thing. Good rpg doesn't need outstanding graphic, but shooter does. So F4 is just a shooter?

[greyscale]

And you see, there is this thing. Good rpg doesn't need outstanding graphic, but shooter does. So F4 is just a shooter?

 

No doubt about that.

 

With each game Bethesda makes do they strip away more RPG elements and add more fluff, but honestly this is the case with a lot of new big scale RPG's now a days, they are so pumped with UI, icons, markers ect. that eliminates a lot of classic RPG elements we know from older games.

 

I know these videos have been linked before, but I really think they explain good what is wrong with not only Fallout 4 but other mordern-rpgs aswell:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wired]

 

 

With each game Bethesda makes do they strip away more RPG elements

A big mistake. With new SPECIAL they didn't actually throw away skills. Merged with perks but it's still good ol' tedious ranked skill system. But instead of having 15<25<50<75<100 we have like 1<2<3<4<5, mostly.

[anonymous9393]

I read this reddit post that's a summary of this full article about why Fallout 4 sucks so bad that bla bla bla... you know... your typical hyperbolic circle jerk hate.

 

But . . . 

 

He made a great intro to point #7:

 

7. The UI is still built around the Pip-Boy​

 

Bethesda are not terrible at art design, and they are, to some extent, capable of fixing the worst flaws of their previous games. And yet, here we are, in the year 2016, and they have once again delivered one of the worst user interfaces of the Windows era.

 

The rest of point 7 is hypocritical ranting. "Oh they're not terrible at UI" followed up with "the pip boy UI is terrible" . . . but that notwithstanding, he makes a very salient point in that 2nd sentence.

 

Think about ANY OTHER modern game of the genre. For me, the comparison is with Tomb Raider 2013, and FarCry 3/4. I'm not going to go down some arbitrary list of comparisons as an abstract comparison is enough. I mean lighting alone. . . 

 

In 2011, Skyrim was beautiful and they did a TON with an engine that was a bit dated. It looked good and played well. 5 years ago that was fine. 

 

Today, F4 is fun... enough. But the engine is now horribly dated. And I find it incredibly annoying because just imagine for a moment how much more fun the game could be given current tech?

 

Back in the 90s, id wrote and rewrote their primary game engine 5 times in 8 years. Each iteration played and worked VASTLY different/better than the previous iteration. Digital Extremes did something very similar starting with Unreal 1. Unreal 04 was a VASTLY different/capable engine than unreal 97.

 

This game engine is now 15 years old and it has the same problems, artifacts and limitations that it's always had. There's no way in hell that they could even CONSIDER doing a modern main menu or skills screen. The engine simply doesn't have the widgetry. And they never consider multiplayer for any of these games because the tired-ass engine simply can't do it. "focus on good single player experience" is just a marketing excuse.

 

I dunno . . . I'm just ranting cuz it's annoying. We've got another 3 yrs of updates/dlc to deal with in this ugly/old engine, not to mention whatever 'follow up' release there is. I'd love to be playing this game in a more modern engine.

i don't think so, in my opinion is just about really bad ui design. Darknified for oblivion and skyui for skyrim are enough. And skyrim is ok just becouse was for 360/ps3, but the combat system still suck(maybe gamebryo is the problem) plus there is not role playing, you can't be a bad guy. What bethesda need are good game designer, good writer, good animator etc... come on... khajiit with human feet wtf. I think they are the worst triple A developer.

[oblivionwithdongs]

I don't see how the shitty UI is an engine limitation.

What makes FO4 bad is having 4 dialogue options per conversation, having no skills whatsoever and generally being more of a shooting gallery than an rpg.

Mods will fix the UI, modders like Someguy2k can make some quests with actual interesting dialogue. I just hope someone can completely change the skill system, they managed to for Oblivion.

Also there's certainly nothing ugly about it, I think FO4 looks great most of the time, especially if the first thing you do when you open it is open the console and type cl off. Not even sure why people bother making ENBs for Fallout 4 considering the engine finally has SSAO, godrays, dynamic DOF etc...

Bethesda just need to fire their entire animation department.

[Guest Vendayn]

I dunno why people are complaining about the engine. Compared to Skyrim its so much better.

 

My experience with Skyrim on a heavy modded game with stability mods:
Stutters every time it loaded new areas

Crashes all the time
Add ENB and stability vastly dropped, same with FPS as expected

 

My experience with a Fallout 4 heavily modded game, high res textures mods,  without even advanced tools or stability mods AND using ENB:

My FPS is great (even though the game looks way better than Skyrim, on TOP of a highly taxing ENB)

No stutters AT all

Can be in a massive battle and little frame drop, and still NO stutters

No crashes at all, except once randomly after playing 9 hours

 

I still like Skyrim as a game more than Fallout 4, but I am enjoying Fallout 4 massively improved stability vastly more.

 

Also, even a 100% vanilla Skyrim (before I even got mods) always had stutters for me, when traveling. And vanilla Fallout 4 looks so much better (at least to me) than vanilla Skyrim. And it performs better to boot...

 

Skyrim always had issues for me though. And I think the biggest thing is Skyrim is 32bit, and Fallout 4 is finally 64bit...so that probably (maybe?) explains the massive performance increase I get.

[Wired]

 

Bethesda just need to fire their entire animation department.

They need to ditch half of their staff so bad 'cause programmers didn't do their job well for the particle system is still a huge mess, textures packed by a moron and their data streaming system is pretty much broken. Compared with open world GTA V and MGSV Fallout 4 is a MESS finding an excuse to not to be released on X360. Before you start crying in rage, this is a fair comparison because these games are using most of the visual effects Fallout 4 has to offer without slowing everything down.

[DocClox]

I thought the passage quoted in the Reddit post was spot on:

 

[G]oing after your missing baby strikes me as one of the most pressing and (theoretically) time sensitive goals a person can receive in their lives, and forcing this motivation on the player character of a “do whatever you want” open world game is downright criminally stupid. Every other open world RPG I've played handles this issue better by giving the player various outs to rationalize ignoring their primary objective: “it's all prophesied anyway”, “fighting bad guys will help win the war”, “I don't really care about this stuff,” etc. etc. But you cannot very well pretend that you don't care about your missing baby, especially when your fully voiced main character bleats out a mournful “Shaun! Shaaaaun...” at the slightest provocation. Worse yet, Fallout 4 drags the kidnapping storyline out for a good long time, leading you through the game's two biggest settlements and into the most dangerous high level areas on the overworld map in the process. Who could be blamed for taking a couple of side quests and building a few shacks for the homeless on the side? Why not wander out into the swamp and collect some baseball memorabilia? The main quest absolutely requires your character to care deeply for their child; the general world design beckons you not to give a damn

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

I don't understand the Pip Boy hate though. Not that they've done a particularly good job of basing an interface around the thing for this game, and the UI in general is typical console based suckiness, but I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind "because Pip Boy".

[windpl]

I thought the passage quoted in the Reddit post was spot on:

 

[G]oing after your missing baby strikes me as one of the most pressing and (theoretically) time sensitive goals a person can receive in their lives, and forcing this motivation on the player character of a “do whatever you want” open world game is downright criminally stupid. Every other open world RPG I've played handles this issue better by giving the player various outs to rationalize ignoring their primary objective: “it's all prophesied anyway”, “fighting bad guys will help win the war”, “I don't really care about this stuff,” etc. etc. But you cannot very well pretend that you don't care about your missing baby, especially when your fully voiced main character bleats out a mournful “Shaun! Shaaaaun...” at the slightest provocation. Worse yet, Fallout 4 drags the kidnapping storyline out for a good long time, leading you through the game's two biggest settlements and into the most dangerous high level areas on the overworld map in the process. Who could be blamed for taking a couple of side quests and building a few shacks for the homeless on the side? Why not wander out into the swamp and collect some baseball memorabilia? The main quest absolutely requires your character to care deeply for their child; the general world design beckons you not to give a damn

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

I don't understand the Pip Boy hate though. Not that they've done a particularly good job of basing an interface around the thing for this game, and the UI in general is typical console based suckiness, but I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind "because Pip Boy".

 

 

And this is surprise why? Game was created for console crowd that play few h/min a day and need a motivation to stick/return playing. Other audience is just fallout from the original.

[DocClox]

And this is surprise why? Game was created for console crowd that play few h/min a day and need a motivation to stick/return playing. Other audience is just fallout from the original.

I'm not sure - which bit isn't surprising? The story, the UI or the hate for the Pip Boy?

 

I was surprised that the story was so bad; it's a bit of a minority opinion, but I always enjoy Bethesda's stories. The UI is crap, but it's unsurprising crap - they've beed designing for consoles every since Oblivion.

 

I just don't see why anyone hates the Pip Boy as opposed to the bad interface implemented around it. The device itself is a Fallout icon. It just needed a little more thought and a couple more inventory tabs really. And maybe a toggle for read/unread notes and the like.

[windpl]

 

And this is surprise why? Game was created for console crowd that play few h/min a day and need a motivation to stick/return playing. Other audience is just fallout from the original.

I was surprised that the story was so bad; it's a bit of a minority opinion, but I always enjoy Bethesda's stories.

 

 

Well you just answered yourself? ;D

But also - ui can be done better, mostly because they themself do not know what this game is.

[DocClox]

Well you just answered yourself? ;D

I wasn't aware I'd asked a question. Unless it was "why do people hate the Pip Boy?" In which case I'm no wiser now than I was earlier.

[windpl]

 

Well you just answered yourself? ;D

I wasn't aware I'd asked a question. Unless it was "why do people hate the Pip Boy?" In which case I'm no wiser now than I was earlier.

 

 

Well you said that you weren't sure ;p

[DocClox]

Well you said that you weren't sure ;p

 

 

And I'm no surer now than I was then.

 

Did you have an opinion on the matter, or are we just batting semantics back and forth?

[windpl]

 

Well you said that you weren't sure ;p

 

 

And I'm no surer now than I was then.

 

Did you have an opinion on the matter, or are we just batting semantics back and forth?

 

 

The second. I never knew how to stop conversation without being rude ;p

[Wired]

I don't understand why the writer of this messy article went pussy in #6. It's not unnecessary business that adds nothing interesting, it's one of the worst Bethesda's excuses for not doing their job at writing and designing interesting communities with actual characters, quests, it's a job for the player himself now. After I saw that Bioshock-styled city on YT I just stopped playing this miserable game for a while.

The weapon mod system is not any better. Why do my char needs workbench for adding an existing shit in inventory like scope, silencer or laser sight?Is he as desperate and miserable as half of the Bethesda's F4 dev team?

[Guest Mogie56]

I read this reddit post that's a summary of this full article about why Fallout 4 sucks so bad that bla bla bla... you know... your typical hyperbolic circle jerk hate.

 

But . . . 

 

He made a great intro to point #7:

 

7. The UI is still built around the Pip-Boy​

 

Bethesda are not terrible at art design, and they are, to some extent, capable of fixing the worst flaws of their previous games. And yet, here we are, in the year 2016, and they have once again delivered one of the worst user interfaces of the Windows era.

 

The rest of point 7 is hypocritical ranting. "Oh they're not terrible at UI" followed up with "the pip boy UI is terrible" . . . but that notwithstanding, he makes a very salient point in that 2nd sentence.

 

Think about ANY OTHER modern game of the genre. For me, the comparison is with Tomb Raider 2013, and FarCry 3/4. I'm not going to go down some arbitrary list of comparisons as an abstract comparison is enough. I mean lighting alone. . . 

 

In 2011, Skyrim was beautiful and they did a TON with an engine that was a bit dated. It looked good and played well. 5 years ago that was fine. 

 

Today, F4 is fun... enough. But the engine is now horribly dated. And I find it incredibly annoying because just imagine for a moment how much more fun the game could be given current tech?

 

Back in the 90s, id wrote and rewrote their primary game engine 5 times in 8 years. Each iteration played and worked VASTLY different/better than the previous iteration. Digital Extremes did something very similar starting with Unreal 1. Unreal 04 was a VASTLY different/capable engine than unreal 97.

 

This game engine is now 15 years old and it has the same problems, artifacts and limitations that it's always had. There's no way in hell that they could even CONSIDER doing a modern main menu or skills screen. The engine simply doesn't have the widgetry. And they never consider multiplayer for any of these games because the tired-ass engine simply can't do it. "focus on good single player experience" is just a marketing excuse.

 

I dunno . . . I'm just ranting cuz it's annoying. We've got another 3 yrs of updates/dlc to deal with in this ugly/old engine, not to mention whatever 'follow up' release there is. I'd love to be playing this game in a more modern engine.

Maybe that will be the big "Showcase" at E3 2016 in June. A new engine id tech 6 or something better   hey one can dream

[Chbaakal]

Why work with a modern engine, instead? I'm thinking that the 'Thesda Corporate doesn't want to spend the time nor the money to switch to a modern engine, since they'll have to;

 

1. Buy a licence and software.

 

2. Either retrain their employees to work with the new one or fire them and hire those that have experience with it. Both will cost a lot of money and slow production.

 

3. Work within a new engine's licence and legal constraints to remake their Creation Kit. That might mean limiting it's capabilities, which in turn will limit the moddability of their future TES and Fallout series (and reduce their sales, when many modders find out that they can't do what they want).

 

4. Any change in engines will have tons of complaints, especially from rabid fans and those that don't like the new engine, or 'that engine would have been better than what you've bought' kind of thing. Even if the new engine is 'good enough'.

 

5. Shareholders don't like anything that might derail their money train. Change is bad, unless money's to be had. If sales drop afterwards, even marginally, they'll go apeshit.

 

 

 

[Wired]

If they change the engine  or ever come up with their own technology (which is the worst case if you know what I mean), the whole LoversLab will be in first few rows protesting right at Bethesda's office and screaming nonsense (you have my axe though) because chances for new editor to be as easy and powerful as CK are minimal. Instead we may get more limited mod functional or really cheesy and messy toolkit like DromEd (Thief fans understand) or Fallout 2 Mapper.

[Lendova]

I really would like to know, whats can be the benefits with a new engine besides better performance?

[Wired]

 

I really would like to know, whats can be the benefits with a new engine besides better performance?

This is actually not a solid fact at all, considering WHO and WHY got work at Bethesda. Normally new engine must provide better use of the actual hardware, general stability improvement, new data streaming system, more flexibility in scripting, new renderer, you know... Things broken in GamebryoCreation Engine. Otherwise, using new engine is not rational and might turn into nightmare for everyone who does care about Fallout or Elder Scrolls or any game by Bethesda.

[DocClox]

The second. I never knew how to stop conversation without being rude ;p

Gotcha. Peace, my friend

[Lendova]

 

 

I really would like to know, whats can be the benefits with a new engine besides better performance?

This is actually not a solid fact at all, considering WHO and WHY got work at Bethesda. Normally new engine must provide better use of the actual hardware, general stability improvement, new data streaming system, more flexibility in scripting, new renderer, you know... Things broken in GamebryoCreation Engine. Otherwise, using new engine is not rational and might turn into nightmare for everyone who does care about Fallout or Elder Scrolls or any game by Bethesda.

 

I'm aware, how incompetent some studio (like Blizzard as well). But lets say, they have the knowledge and experience. Whats can be the noticable changes for the avarage user?

[DigitalP]

If you compare F04 to Skyrim they really do drive the main storyline quest in a way that clearly is designed for the gaming audience that prefers to play a game for a few hours.

In Skyrim it's setup so you can really go "Dragons? I'm not fucking getting involved in that shit and no I'm not going anywhere near the arseholes that wanted to cut my head off." and you can easily just go and do your own shit as it's not until you learn the "way of the voice" that the main quest becomes important. 

Also to borrow from Liana K the game has been Sarkeesianised.