Just saw some guys say they hope TESVI's story won't be as bad as F4...

Coopervane · February 12, 2016

Don't think we have any disagreement here that is exactly what I want in a bethesda open world game.

We don't disagree. When i said "not at all" it was in refrence to you saying "sounds crazy".

I strongly disagree with the statements here devaluing the value of the MQ in Bethesda's open-world games.

What Bethesda must remember going forward is that the story comes first. The story is what brings everything together. The story sets the tone for the world they are building. The story is what drives the characters, whether they be major or minor, to act the way they do. Even if someone opts to skip the MQ, the themes stemming from it should be felt throughout in order to give the world a sense of character. If a game lacks a strong element with which to bind everything together, you're going to end up with something either boring or disjointed.

When Bethesda adheres to this principle, you get a product like Morrowind, which we can all agree shines brighter than OB and SK in the world-building department. The developers did an excellent job showing us how much of an impact the themes and characters in the MQ had and continue to have on Dunmeri culture and society in the late 3rd Era. Some side quests for the guilds have the player hunt down and destroy Sixth House cells, which reminds the player of the danger that Dagoth Ur poses even if the PC does not become Nerevarine, just as an example.

Skyrim, on the contrary, is what what happens when the core element is either lacking or extremely weak. For starters, the game can't decide whether Alduin's return or the Civil War is the more important crisis. But most importantly, the events and themes behind the MQ were undeveloped, such as Nordic Religion and the Dragon War. As a result, the game is over-brimming with generic filler quests which do nothing almost towards fleshing out the culture and society of Skyrim.

That'd all be true and a very fair point, well, maybe not so much that an MQ is vital (i could envision ways in which you could make an RPG that doesen't have an MQ, because i've played AD&D campaigns that didn't), but more that what creates a good story is having good character and story archs, and that things need to have consequences and stakes to be gripping. The problem with the argument in this case, however, is that we're not talking about CDprojRed here, we're talking about Bethesda, and they are not going to deliver that.

This is not going to change any time soon, if at all. Even if they did hire a whole bunch of good writers, i don't see Todd Howard letting them do their job and craft a good game unmolested. Sadly they would almost certainly get bogged down by company politics.

Ergo, since this is what we're dealing with, i'd much rather have a really good sandbox to roleplay around in, than a bad story told badly that gets in the way of the sandboxy fun.

Istill · February 12, 2016

Don't think we have any disagreement here that is exactly what I want in a bethesda open world game.

We don't disagree. When i said "not at all" it was in refrence to you saying "sounds crazy".

I strongly disagree with the statements here devaluing the value of the MQ in Bethesda's open-world games.

What Bethesda must remember going forward is that the story comes first. The story is what brings everything together. The story sets the tone for the world they are building. The story is what drives the characters, whether they be major or minor, to act the way they do. Even if someone opts to skip the MQ, the themes stemming from it should be felt throughout in order to give the world a sense of character. If a game lacks a strong element with which to bind everything together, you're going to end up with something either boring or disjointed.

When Bethesda adheres to this principle, you get a product like Morrowind, which we can all agree shines brighter than OB and SK in the world-building department. The developers did an excellent job showing us how much of an impact the themes and characters in the MQ had and continue to have on Dunmeri culture and society in the late 3rd Era. Some side quests for the guilds have the player hunt down and destroy Sixth House cells, which reminds the player of the danger that Dagoth Ur poses even if the PC does not become Nerevarine, just as an example.

Skyrim, on the contrary, is what what happens when the core element is either lacking or extremely weak. For starters, the game can't decide whether Alduin's return or the Civil War is the more important crisis. But most importantly, the events and themes behind the MQ were undeveloped, such as Nordic Religion and the Dragon War. As a result, the game is over-brimming with generic filler quests which do nothing almost towards fleshing out the culture and society of Skyrim.

That'd all be true and a very fair point, well, maybe not so much that an MQ is vital (i could envision ways in which you could make an RPG that doesen't have an MQ, because i've played AD&D campaigns that didn't), but more that what creates a good story is having good character and story archs, and that things need to have consequences and stakes to be gripping. The problem with the argument in this case, however, is that we're not talking about CDprojRed here, we're talking about Bethesda, and they are not going to deliver that.

This is not going to change any time soon, if at all. Even if they did hire a whole bunch of good writers, i don't see Todd Howard letting them do their job and craft a good game unmolested. Sadly they would almost certainly get bogged down by company politics.

Ergo, since this is what we're dealing with, i'd much rather have a really good sandbox to roleplay around in, than a bad story told badly that gets in the way of the sandboxy fun.

Still, nothing stands in the way for them to learn or to look back, way back and learn on their past products.

Anbeegod · February 12, 2016

Maybe we need to understand what stop them from making good stories. Poor ability of the personnel? Company infighting? Development policies? Lack of resources?(hell no, Beth and ZeniMax aren't that poor)

Istill · February 12, 2016

Maybe we need to understand what stop them from making good stories. Poor ability of the personnel? Company infighting? Development policies? Lack of resources?(hell no, Beth and ZeniMax aren't that poor)

Well, they just going the way EA is going for years...

Anbeegod · February 12, 2016

Maybe we need to understand what stop them from making good stories. Poor ability of the personnel? Company infighting? Development policies? Lack of resources?(hell no, Beth and ZeniMax aren't that poor)

Well, they just going the way EA is going for years...

I hope not. Look how EA has ruined Bioware, at least the jumpdown of F4 from FNV still isn't as terrible as DA2 from DAO.

*Myst42* · February 12, 2016

2 Cents incoming:

IMHO, dialogue system has done nothing but deteriorate, In morrowind, we had complex talking trees and deep roleplay, Oblivion was already simpler, Skyrim's is ridiculous as nothing you say actually matters and Fallout seems to be getting worse with the actual absence of words

Probably someone told them that "reading is for nerds"

I think I'll always miss a good roleplaying game with interesting dialogue choices like Vampire - Bloodlines IE... But as games grow to be ever more complex in graphics and fancy effects, I've come to nocice the inevitability of their content's downfall.

The more fancy the graphics, the larger fucktons of resources they consume and the shorter their content actually is.

Remember those games from the old days? Where you actually had a standard of 40 levels, which were actually long and lasting? Nope... most games are played in like 6 or 9 hours topmost these days.

All in the name of fancy stuff I dont even care about. Shadows? Pffff... I'd choose a game with a good story over fancy shadows anytime. All that graphic stuff all it does is look pretty at the expense of playing experience. There are also old games with pixelated landscapes that were as beautiful as those fancy graphics. Why? Because fucking imagination that's why.

Although overall I enjoyed Skyrim, the thing I hated the most about it was the lack of actual roleplay experience. All quests were almost everytime the same outcome and the "choosing" was always a two sided system.

What if you didnt want to join the dark brotherhood and murder people but didnt want to kill them either? What if instead of winning the civil war you wanted to play a pacifist and try to bring both sides to an understanding, of perhaps my character was an angry necro who just wanted the world to die. What if I didn't want to murder that poor nice dragon over that mountain? What If I wanted to tell all those daedric princes who told me to kill my friends and waifus to stick it and go to hell?

I really liked Dragonborn DLC though as a story... still not enough roleplay. Maybe you'd like an evil char who combines forces with Miraak and fight that tentacle monster instead but what the hell...

The bad news... I think the roleplaying experience in story and dialogue choices, is only gonna keep getting worse, but unfortunately, some of us are already a captive audience and we'll just keep aquiring their stuff anyway. At least we'll always have modding right?

Anbeegod · February 12, 2016

2 Cents incoming:

IMHO, dialogue system has done nothing but deteriorate, In morrowind, we had complex talking trees and deep roleplay, Oblivion was already simpler, Skyrim's is ridiculous as nothing you say actually matters and Fallout seems to be getting worse with the actual absence of words

Probably someone told them that "reading is for nerds"

I think I'll always miss a good roleplaying game with interesting dialogue choices like Vampire - Bloodlines IE... But as games grow to be ever more complex in graphics and fancy effects, I've come to nocice the inevitability of their content's downfall.

The more fancy the graphics, the larger fucktons of resources they consume and the shorter their content actually is.

Remember those games from the old days? Where you actually had a standard of 40 levels, which were actually long and lasting? Nope... most games are played in like 6 or 9 hours topmost these days.

All in the name of fancy stuff I dont even care about. Shadows? Pffff... I'd choose a game with a good story over fancy shadows anytime. All that graphic stuff all it does is look pretty at the expense of playing experience. There are also old games with pixelated landscapes that were as beautiful as those fancy graphics. Why? Because fucking imagination that's why.

Although overall I enjoyed Skyrim, the thing I hated the most about it was the lack of actual roleplay experience. All quests were almost everytime the same outcome and the "choosing" was always a two sided system.

What if you didnt want to join the dark brotherhood and murder people but didnt want to kill them either? What if instead of winning the civil war you wanted to play a pacifist and try to bring both sides to an understanding, of perhaps my character was an angry necro who just wanted the world to die. What if I didn't want to murder that poor nice dragon over that mountain? What If I wanted to tell all those daedric princes who told me to kill my friends and waifus to stick it and go to hell?

I really liked Dragonborn DLC though as a story... still not enough roleplay. Maybe you'd like an evil char who combines forces with Miraak and fight that tentacle monster instead but what the hell...

The bad news... I think the roleplaying experience in story and dialogue choices, is only gonna keep getting worse, but unfortunately, some of us are already a captive audience and we'll just keep aquiring their stuff anyway. At least we'll always have modding right?

Agreed. In my WIP mod, there are tons of dialogues for the players to define their character. No such thing in the vanilla game!

Coopervane · February 12, 2016

You have missed the point entirely. I am not arguing that the MQ be obtrusive. Rather, the themes and conflicts within the main story should play a major role in building the world. Quests and such . . .

I doubt anyone would disagree with that sentiment, certainly Skyrim would have been a better game if things like the civil war or defeating Alduin would have had some sort of impact on the game. Better writing would have made things better. No argument there.

The reason i personally, and i think many others aswell, get uneasy when talking about more story in Bethesda games, is that we've noticed a bit of a trend in that regard.

It seems Bethesda finds it very difficult to write a story for a player insertion character, which could have many different motivations decided by the player.

Ergo, when they try to "add more story focus", we get stuff like Fo4, where you are forced to play as mommy or daddy, who already have a premade backstory and personality, and get send on a quest to find our baby.

When they don't try to push the story too hard, we get stuff like Skyrim, where the story might lack consequence, but atleast we can play it our way, and actually roleplay a char of our choosing and design.

For me, beeing able to roleplay a char that i made, that i care about and want to play, where i can decided how they would act based on what i feel their personality is, that's absolutely vital for my enjoyment of an RPG (i don't get along well with RPG's that have a pre-made protagonist). So, if i'm forced to choose between player freedom to create and roleplay a char in these games, but lackluster story exicution, or, getting stiffed with a pre-fabbed protagonist and a slightly more coherent, but still not great story. Well, for me it's a nobrainer, i want proper char-creation and the abillity to decide who and what my char is.

Ideally i'd want both! Obviously! But i am not confident in Bethesda's abillity to pull that off.

Maybe we need to understand what stop them from making good stories. Poor ability of the personnel? Company infighting? Development policies? Lack of resources?(hell no, Beth and ZeniMax aren't that poor)

Todd Howard and a few of the other big-wigs are the problem. Todd just wants to make brainless console games, the more "lowest common denominator" the better, because he is convinced that this is where the money is. He just wants the company to make brainless shooters or brawlers as he feels this will make him more dosh.

No doubt, Fo4's stark reduction in RPG elements, the 4 button conversation system (ewww), and the heavy focus on the shooting this time around was largely Todd's handywork.

It was also this kind of thinking and corporate meddling that let to a lot of the talent behind Morrowind leaving the company. They wanted to make a good RPG, but increasingly they were told not to, to dial back their ambitions, and make things more combat focused.

Well, atleast this is what i've been able to gleam from what's been said over the years. Most of it has come from the people who left after Morrowind or who left durring or after Oblivion. I obviously don't have first hand knowledge of it myself.

Istill · February 12, 2016

You have missed the point entirely. I am not arguing that the MQ be obtrusive. Rather, the themes and conflicts within the main story should play a major role in building the world. Quests and such . . .

I doubt anyone would disagree with that sentiment, certainly Skyrim would have been a better game if things like the civil war or defeating Alduin would have had some sort of impact on the game. Better writing would have made things better. No argument there.

The reason i personally, and i think many others aswell, get uneasy when talking about more story in Bethesda games, is that we've noticed a bit of a trend in that regard.

It seems Bethesda finds it very difficult to write a story for a player insertion character, which could have many different motivations decided by the player.

Ergo, when they try to "add more story focus", we get stuff like Fo4, where you are forced to play as mommy or daddy, who already have a premade backstory and personality, and get send on a quest to find our baby.

When they don't try to push the story too hard, we get stuff like Skyrim, where the story might lack consequence, but atleast we can play it our way, and actually roleplay a char of our choosing and design.

For me, beeing able to roleplay a char that i made, that i care about and want to play, where i can decided how they would act based on what i feel their personality is, that's absolutely vital for my enjoyment of an RPG (i don't get along well with RPG's that have a pre-made protagonist). So, if i'm forced to choose between player freedom to create and roleplay a char in these games, but lackluster story exicution, or, getting stiffed with a pre-fabbed protagonist and a slightly more coherent, but still not great story. Well, for me it's a nobrainer, i want proper char-creation and the abillity to decide who and what my char is.

Ideally i'd want both! Obviously! But i am not confident in Bethesda's abillity to pull that off.

Maybe we need to understand what stop them from making good stories. Poor ability of the personnel? Company infighting? Development policies? Lack of resources?(hell no, Beth and ZeniMax aren't that poor)

Todd Howard and a few of the other big-wigs are the problem. Todd just wants to make brainless console games, the more "lowest common denominator" the better, because he is convinced that this is where the money is. He just wants the company to make brainless shooters or brawlers as he feels this will make him more dosh.

No doubt, Fo4's stark reduction in RPG elements, the 4 button conversation system (ewww), and the heavy focus on the shooting this time around was largely Todd's handywork.

It was also this kind of thinking and corporate meddling that let to a lot of the talent behind Morrowind leaving the company. They wanted to make a good RPG, but increasingly they were told not to, to dial back their ambitions, and make things more combat focused.

Well, atleast this is what i've been able to gleam from what's been said over the years. Most of it has come from the people who left after Morrowind or who left durring or after Oblivion. I obviously don't have first hand knowledge of it myself.

Well, maybe thats truth.

But still, maybe you got your own character to roleplay... But you dont get any situation to act like your character... I mean im not counting mods becouse i shouldnt count them here. Its kinda sad that these games can be a much more, but they dont want to use that oportunity.

Coopervane · February 12, 2016

Well, maybe thats truth.

But still, maybe you got your own character to roleplay... But you dont get any situation to act like your character... I mean im not counting mods becouse i shouldnt count them here. Its kinda sad that these games can be a much more, but they dont want to use that oportunity.

That seems to be a problem either way, and comes down to poor writing.

Skyrim often lacks options for player choice, in terms of you not getting to refuse some quests, getting too few or not varied enough speech options, or there just not beeing enough ways to complete quests. It's a problem that could be resolved with more and better writing, but who knows if it would be (was it a result of lacking skill? The dev's not getting enough time? The engine beeing too wonky to work with? Or maybe they just didn't care about it? Who can say).

But it's no better in Fo4, quite the opposite infact, as people have found that more often than not it doesen't even matter which speech option you pick, you always get the same outcome anyway. There's some choices to make at the end of the storyline, but for the vast majority of the game there really isen't, and the options to play a char in a different way are even more limited.

I gotta say, i'm a little worried what might happen to the next TES if they decide to go with this 4-button speech system. :-/

Anbeegod · February 12, 2016

Well, maybe thats truth.

But still, maybe you got your own character to roleplay... But you dont get any situation to act like your character... I mean im not counting mods becouse i shouldnt count them here. Its kinda sad that these games can be a much more, but they dont want to use that oportunity.

That seems to be a problem either way, and comes down to poor writing.

Skyrim often lacks options for player choice, in terms of you not getting to refuse some quests, getting too few or not varied enough speech options, or there just not beeing enough ways to complete quests. It's a problem that could be resolved with more and better writing, but who knows if it would be (was it a result of lacking skill? The dev's not getting enough time? The engine beeing too wonky to work with? Or maybe they just didn't care about it? Who can say).

But it's no better in Fo4, quite the opposite infact, as people have found that more often than not it doesen't even matter which speech option you pick, you always get the same outcome anyway. There's some choices to make at the end of the storyline, but for the vast majority of the game there really isen't, and the options to play a char in a different way are even more limited.

I gotta say, i'm a little worried what might happen to the next TES if they decide to go with this 4-button speech system.

I can assure you, the engine can conveniently support multiple options and player character shaping, being working with CK myself. It's not gonna be the engine's problem.

The 4-options system is still "slightly" better than Skyrim, actually. You usually only have 2 to 3 options in Skyrim, while F4 has 4, and there are more dialogue options that make changes in the course of the story than Skyrim. Though both did a poor job.

Istill · February 12, 2016

Yea 4 options.... Yes(YES), YES (NO) YES(SARCASTIC), YES(BEING ASSHOLE) 4 option system....

Coopervane · February 12, 2016

I can assure you, the engine can conveniently support multiple options and player character shaping, being working with CK myself. It's not gonna be the engine's problem.

The 4-options system is still "slightly" better than Skyrim, actually. You usually only have 2 to 3 options in Skyrim, while F4 has 4, and there are more dialogue options that make changes in the course of the story than Skyrim. Though both did a poor job.

The engine thing is not quite that simple, it's more about how long it takes to do it. As modders we've got the freedom to take our time making whatever we want to make, whereas Dev's working against the clock on company dime don't get that luxury, so, if the tools or engine are slow to work with, features can end up getting cut for that reason alone.

I'm not saying that is the reason though, just listing it as a potential one.

As for the 4-button system, Istill already made the point that most of them are just for show in Fo4 anyway (you get the exact same result nomatter which one you pick), so clearly Bethesda just worked around there beeing 4 options by inserting "fakes", instead of actually providing 4 options. Thus it beeing there does not mean that you do get more options, just that more time and money was wasted on voice-acting 4 different ways of saying "Yes, fine, i'll do your fetch quest already".

On the flipside though, with the old option-list system, you could have 50 options instead of 4 if the situation demanded it, or only 2 if it's just a random no-name NPC you've got no reason to speak with. It's a lot more versatile, and so would get my vote for that reason alone (nevermind mod support, and when mods need to insert speech options to opperate, which would be another good reason to use the list-system).

Of course, i most certainly would want to see them fix the list system for the PC version of the game (IE highlighted options falling out of sync with the keyboard commands, that bug is rather annoying in Skyrim).

afa · February 13, 2016

Player choices is the deal we made with the devil.

It looks cool at first when it was new and shiny, but then we want more and more of it and it consumes our soul and made us realize what we want but can never have.

Choices in games are all smoke and mirrors, tricks and illusions, now don't get me wrong they aren't bad, but they are never truly your choice, but merely possibilities that are permitted.

The always present argument against "modern day games" lacking "real" choice is half truth at best. The reality is it lacks the choice that you, personally and subjectively want to have or an outcome you subconsciously work to avoid.

You want to strike peace between the stormcloak and imperial, I want to kill both the stormcloak and imperial, he wants to tame the dragons and have them kill both the stormcloak and imperial, she wants to unite the stormcloack and imperial and kill the thalmor...and these "choices" go on and on. It is quite frankly an impossible task to satisfy everyone especially consider all the "choices" throughout the game.

As for story telling, as pointed out above player agency vs character agency is a possible conflict. If you want a really well told cohesive story the player will need to give up on some control over the character agency. Or you are going to run into the infinite possibilities and impossible to solve issue as described above.

Morrowind dialog are text dump similar to a book almost and if you want to have your imagination take over, go read an actual book. Ain't nothing wrong with them either, but non verbal story telling, tone, atmosphere, expression when done well can add so much to narrative and can "sell" the vision that much more precise. There's a reason why movie makers slave over camera angle, lightning, and actors hone their craft. Just as game dev work tirelessly the next piece of tech be it for gameplay or other reason.

How to tell a good story? Well subjectivity aside there are a few tricks and technique maybe worth considering.

Building a relatable character, not easy to do since everyone has different taste, doubly so if it is the main character in a Bethesda game since it interfere with the player agency aspect as mentioned above.

Understand a character, the cheap trick is dialog...lots of it. Rather you hate her or not Serana is probably the most flesh out character in Skyrim simply because she talk so damn much and you are often force to listen to her if you choose to go through Dawnguard. Problem with this? What if she really isn't your type and now you are stuck with having to drag her everywhere? Where's my choice in all this!?

Have character(s) who has stake in the story or a player surrogate for the silent protagonist. Martin in Oblivion is without a doubt the prime example of this down to the point where he is technically the actual person to save the world and he is often the one telling you how fucked up shit is and is actually working to solve it.

Good pacing, hard to do in a linear game. Open world game? good luck!

Environmental story telling, imo TES does ok in this department. Crafting a detail world goes a long way, minor side dialog, and some points of interests make the world feel lived in. Good use of open space is next level (where Oblivion fails). Having the landscape change accordingly however will be a task and a half

Istill · February 13, 2016

Morrowind dialog are text dump similar to a book almost and if you want to have your imagination take over, go read an actual book. Ain't nothing wrong with them either, but non verbal story telling, tone, atmosphere, expression when done well can add so much to narrative and can "sell" the vision that much more precise. There's a reason why movie makers slave over camera angle, lightning, and actors hone their craft. Just as game dev work tirelessly the next piece of tech be it for gameplay or other reason.

Cant agree at all. I mean yea that was a text dump, many of that wasnt needed but that was whole picture. You know, we cant treat games like something where we dont want to inwest our imagination. Look RPG always was game of imagination. And here it is, your whole point is dead hear. One of fundaments of RPG is imagination. Even here, when we dont need it that much.

Look, it is not easy but imagination is a thing that helped to make and get the idea of these worlds, its fundament about we cannot forget. Your point is saying that dumbing down is good, and gues what, players arent stupid,

Bethesda is company that realy have few serious issues. I mean they cant make too good loking game couse of engine, and becuse their game seems to be big. Why they wont inwest that monet into writers and trying to make something that just work for a while? Becouse graphic is thing that work for a year,two, three. No more, then only thing that stays are story, world. They dont have any of these things here. Their world, creation of skyrim is just boring. Landscapes are boring. Every quick go back to the beggining of the dungeon is somehow design failure. It was so hard to do some not big dungeons? Not every dungeon have to be enormous, they forget about that when they made skyrim.

afa · February 13, 2016

Room for imagination or the require of it varies from rpgs to rpgs.

Or better yet what is a rpg, Diablo, TES, Final Fantasy, Zelda, DnD series all got grouped under that banner, yet they are all very different ranging from totally linear to making stuff up along the way. Personally I always find the linear ones to be better at story telling.

Also consider the differences of an actual story vs an experience.

The term "dumbing down" has lost all meaning what so ever, it is pointless and doesn't describe anything. If the technology and resources is available to replace NPC text dump with voiced dialog (assuming they are good ) then why not. If they can show rather than tell why not, plus it actually require the player to infer and take in the mood and tone of the world visually and aurally rather than just reading what the text tells them. Text will still have their place, they always will for various reasons and likely won't go away. Now the key is of course the ability to utilize what we have positively. And quite frankly I don't think Bethesda can tell a good story without sacrificing their open world, and of the two I will take the open world aspect of a TES games. The best they can do with a writing staff is maybe flesh out the world more with flavor text and dialog and try to compensate by volume again.

Istill · February 13, 2016

Well Diablo Is not an RPG, its Hack and slash... Final fantasy is JRPG, its rpg too but different, you cant group them all in 1 category, they got many differences between them.

Zelda was more like adventure game for me than rpg, but okay.

Still, look, dont get me wrong. Dumbing down didint lost meaning. Same thing happened to mass effect done by EA, and bioware. Their story in 3 was confirming something more than just normal game ending, and how that ended? Dumbed down, they thought people are to dumb to understand. And what we get? We all know, Still my ending always will be indoctrination by acovalos, even if its not true. Im lying myself and i know that. But the point is that everything can be done just right, but everything can suffer from 1 small detail that will destroy everything. The hell, becouse that stupid ending bioware lost much of their fanbase.

Same thing happened with fallout 4. I will remember, and wont forget. No games from you[beth] to me again, i just wont buy it. Its a product i can have fun, but having fun<not means good.

Same situation like with Michael Bay movies.

Imagination, yea it varies, but we cannot let it forget, many people already did that and thats why games marked looks like it looks today.

For instance Gothic II, was a game with open/closed world, depends on how you look at it. But the game got closed ''pacing''[dont know if i used right word to describe that]

You were always doing same thing at start. Same thing happens also in every game you counted [exception of Skyrim]

Well, all the time i play morrowind i not intentionaly do same stuff i did before, with the same dose of satisfaction from that.

Always doing same quests in nearly same order, same monsters in gothic, and guess what, same satisfaction.

Cant say much about diablo.

Thing is, in skyrim i am always doing different things. And i get no satisfaction from it at all. Unless i mod the game to state where i cant run it xd.

Something is just not right.

Fallout NV, its somehow linear to me for about 50% of gameplay, satisfactions is... Well, theres none, actually but its obsidian world, somehow they did it right. Still im getting same filling like with NWN1 or 2, especialy two which is boring after doing act 2.

F4, something iritates me, i dont now, maybe quests, maybe dialogs, maybe i just dont know. I know that i dont like the dialogs at all, quests are stupid, i dont know who write them, and that stupid preston -.- i wont comment on him. they got 6/10 and they got what they deserved. i just hope they will finnaly learn, and do something not for big cash, but just for ''OLD'' fans. And they still will get cash from that, they just dont know it. Now its time for indie, and other little companies that are doing serious games that dont look like 20 bilion dollar project, they can still be big enemy to big companies. Games like transistor for instance.

I just hope when this happens i will still have time, and heart to play games. Becouse from year to year its going harder to love ''new products''

Kaz Aanh · February 13, 2016

I think the problem with TES games is that the art/story team has amazing ideas but most of them are not possible to create due to technical difficulties ( aka game engine ). So you can't embrace the full TES vision created by art/story team.

Makes me think that adding a dragons to the Skyrim was a truly masterpiece done by the programmers.

Istill · February 13, 2016

I think the problem with TES games is that the art/story team has amazing ideas but most of them are not possible to create due to technical difficulties ( aka game engine ). So you can't embrace the full TES vision created by art/story team.

Makes me think that adding a dragons to the Skyrim was a truly masterpiece done by the programmers.

Doubt it, more like Todd dont want to see it.

Anbeegod · February 13, 2016

It's unnecessary and unsensible to blame Todd for everything. If a game has problems, they come from various sources.

Kaz Aanh · February 13, 2016

Todd is most likely unaware of what his game programmers are capable of doing.

Like with the Skyrim where you could sabotage mill and it would affect the global economy of arrows, or that there are no loading screens in the fallout 4.

Istill · February 13, 2016

Yea right... Dont get me wrong, i just dont trust Todd, he is producer he got his grasp on eveyrhing, and this video is one, only one thing why i wont trust him again.

This video shows clearly that something went realy wrong. They showed to much and to less realy happened.

Cmon, many of theese ideas were brilliant. Wayshrines? I mean somebody make a nice thing for morrowind citadels.

Sad thing is they didint even published that stuff, if they didint wanted to include this in their game from the start, why not publish this like they did with morrowind, and laFemme armors, or Firmeounth Stronghold, or magical arrows stuff.

afa · February 13, 2016

The whole dumbing down still doesn't describe anything what so ever tho, what exactly is "dumbed down" now as compare to not before? Other than your own personal enjoyment of each game as a whole that is totally subjective? Sure you can like older games more and you can certainly say current games does nothing for you personally but that's all subjective yet people (especially those god damn youtubers) toss the term dumbing down around like it is an universal truth and expect it to magically gain any meaning.

ME3 is the god damn prime example of choices gone crazy and will never have resolved in any satisfying manner to everyone. Remember what I said about people knocking on limited choices and outcome aren't really about the lack of choices, but it lacks the one that caters to every single player's own vision. To do that is nearly if not completely impossible. I didn't care much for ME3 ending, but quite frankly I see the disappointment coming as 2 end. There's no way they can end the game well. Even if the indoctrination theory is the real deal it still would have been lacking for me, in fact it probably would been even worse. Due to the fact that it would have technically made all choices pointless and then try to pull a it was all a dream end for a save...not sure how I would feel about that at least I would likely appreciate the sheer ridiculousness of it.

Plus think about if we really want the indoctrination theory to have room to exist the main game would need to lay off on some of its "claim" over the world and story much like how I would prefer the TES series to lay off some parts of the world and story beat so player's own take on things can actually manifest physically through mods.

Another thing is player investment and valuing the player's time. The longer a game goes on it is safe to say the player is more invested in it and the stakes are now even higher in terms of satisfaction vs disappointment, and that is an exponential climb since the longer a game goes it usually enable more player agency. A disappointing outcome at the end of mere hours is less of a thorn in ones eye than one that has "wasted" hundreds of hours and across multiple years of a player's time investment.

With that definition of RPGs I can almost certainly say no RPGs has ever had a story that I can get behind fully, hell ME is probably the closest of the lots.

JRPGs on the other hand...give me all your badly translated animu melodrama bullshit and inject it straight into my veins!

Istill · February 13, 2016

The whole dumbing down still doesn't describe anything what so ever tho, what exactly is "dumbed down" now as compare to not before? Other than your own personal enjoyment of each game as a whole that is totally subjective? Sure you can like older games more and you can certainly say current games does nothing for you personally but that's all subjective yet people (especially those god damn youtubers) toss the term dumbing down around like it is an universal truth and expect it to magically gain any meaning.

ME3 is the god damn prime example of choices gone crazy and will never have resolved in any satisfying manner to everyone. Remember what I said about people knocking on limited choices and outcome aren't really about the lack of choices, but it lacks the one that caters to every single player's own vision. To do that is nearly if not completely impossible. I didn't care much for ME3 ending, but quite frankly I see the disappointment coming as 2 end. There's no way they can end the game well. Even if the indoctrination theory is the real deal it still would have been lacking for me, in fact it probably would been even worse. Due to the fact that it would have technically made all choices pointless and then try to pull a it was all a dream end for a save...not sure how I would feel about that at least I would likely appreciate the sheer ridiculousness of it.

Plus think about if we really want the indoctrination theory to have room to exist the main game would need to lay off on some of its "claim" over the world and story much like how I would prefer the TES series to lay off some parts of the world and story beat so player's own take on things can actually manifest physically through mods.

Another thing is player investment and valuing the player's time. The longer a game goes on it is safe to say the player is more invested in it and the stakes are now even higher in terms of satisfaction vs disappointment, and that is an exponential climb since the longer a game goes it usually enable more player agency. A disappointing outcome at the end of mere hours is less of a thorn in ones eye than one that has "wasted" hundreds of hours and across multiple years of a player's time investment.

With that definition of RPGs I can almost certainly say no RPGs has ever had a story that I can get behind fully, hell ME is probably the closest of the lots.

JRPGs on the other hand...give me all your badly translated animu melodrama bullshit and inject it straight into my veins!

I pointed out something here.

I didint knew that youtubers were using that term, stopped watching them ages ago.

Still, few examples how skyrim is dumbed down since morrowind.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Werable items ->

Morrowind -> Pauldrons, boots, gloves, helmet, greves, armor + CLOTHING.

Skyrim -> Armor, gloves, boots, helmet

-----------------------------------------------------

Spells

Morrowind - Levitation, feather fall, many useless spels that were fun, enchanting... making spells, mixing effects of spells, becouse why not... Enchanting items with your own effects becouse WHY NOT. Teleports and stuff. Scrolls are usefull.

Skyrim - Spells are the same... Few different effects, and thats all. Disentchanting items[thats nice] , staffs with magic effects, 2 hand magics thats nice.

Few less magic schools.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artifacts

Morrowind -> Artifacts are useful, you got artifact, you got nice, useful item.

Skyrim -> Leveled Artifacts = non useful artifacts, you can craft better without much effort.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weapon types

Morrowind -> Throwing weapons, Bows, Crossbows, Swords, Axes, Clubs, Spears, Halberds, Staffs, Hammers, Mauls maces..

Skyrim -> Sword, mace, axe, bow, crossbow[in dawnguard]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Skills

Morrowind -> Athletics, acrobatics... Medium Armor... Misticism, Hand to hand[not realy useful becouse of mechanic], sneak[not working], pickpocket[not useful], lockpicking[moderately useful] Speech[useless, you can always give them 1000gold] and more.

Skyrim -> of course speech tree is useless, pickpocket is useless, lockpicking mostly useless. Alteration useless. Destruction only 1 spell couse rest is the same[i mean you have to chose, fireball, fire rune... fire flow... Same for next 2 elements.

Conjuartion -> I like it in skyrim more, realy they did nice job with that tree actually, but bound weapons suck, why its only sword and bow? What about rest?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Items variety.

Morrowind - you got nice variety of useless magic items, but some of them are interesting with enchancments like magic armor, magic helmet, or magic weapon enchanted into other weapon, basicly Ra'Vir stuff.

Skyrim -I mean magic items that are not artifacts, its realy less effects, and even less usefull effects. And Magic items like thane weapons... Red Eagle are just JUNK, just like artifacts.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And i just touched the items and skilltrees, i can go like that whole day, directly i didint pointed classes and stuff like that becouse i dont think that that was good or bad change, it just was a change.

Still, when we talk about ME3, i can say that their ending makes no sense, they made everything right for indoctrination and for me... I would buy it realy, i get that they cant show every choice matter, thats why they dont have to make it. I mean with that ending we dont get the ending at all, and thats the whole point, to make a evasive move. With that you will get the ending you deserve, and you will get what you will think. I mean, if they would end that with shep breathing scene and confirm that theory that would be best ending for me becouse they didint embaressed themselves with bad ending and gave it to my imagination. They would propably get some bad talking becouse of that but... Much less than they got from ending that dont have ANY sense AT ALL.

Still, i dont have to see the ending.

They made points from the first game about indoctrinations, and nearly whole third game we were hearing that noises that confirm shepards state.

Still even extended cut didint make it right, for me at least, choices were pointless, becouse you just cant show every choice matter in the climax of the game. its just not possible, not with their plot.

Well i can say 1 thing, that Ea with bioware did preety much the same thing beth done to their game, they carved not rotten but the best piece flesh from body they got. Me3 was just a 1 big error. I dont know what they were thinking,

Still i want to play Me series again in holidays but i wont play the ending. Just becouse of that.

You know i dont like JRPGs, i was always trying not stand near it.

Well, RPG i can stand behind fully... I would say Gothic I, II are closest for me. Bu then we have Gothic III but i dont say its the devs fault that the game was bad, it was publishers fault, and everybody knows that. And of course we have to get newest part of the series that was considered a part of series untill Piranha got their game rights again, now its just spin-off not part of the series[the didint made that game anyway, and it was bad]

When im thinking about it, theres no ideal game, and i know that. Maybe thats why i am complaining that much? Dunno. Me is high on that list.

Still, look at every of the game scores, not reviews, user scores. Me3 got the lowest.

I was watching many videos bout that, and i saw many pols, it seems that majority, more than 70% of ME3 players didint liked original ending and nearly the same amount didint liked Extended cut either. Still we knew that bioware didint cared about players[they were saying they care but they didint even checked their forums, or any other forums to check what people think] and they still said we are listening to people becouse they just did the opposite things in conclustion to things people wanted[ i know they did few things people wanted]

    afa, on 13 Feb 2016 - 8:18 PM, said:

    The whole dumbing down still doesn't describe anything what so ever tho, what exactly is "dumbed down" now as compare to not before? Other than your own personal enjoyment of each game as a whole that is totally subjective? Sure you can like older games more and you can certainly say current games does nothing for you personally but that's all subjective yet people (especially those god damn youtubers) toss the term dumbing down around like it is an universal truth and expect it to magically gain any meaning.

    ME3 is the god damn prime example of choices gone crazy and will never have resolved in any satisfying manner to everyone. Remember what I said about people knocking on limited choices and outcome aren't really about the lack of choices, but it lacks the one that caters to every single player's own vision. To do that is nearly if not completely impossible. I didn't care much for ME3 ending, but quite frankly I see the disappointment coming as 2 end. There's no way they can end the game well. Even if the indoctrination theory is the real deal it still would have been lacking for me, in fact it probably would been even worse. Due to the fact that it would have technically made all choices pointless and then try to pull a it was all a dream end for a save...not sure how I would feel about that at least I would likely appreciate the sheer ridiculousness of it.

    Plus think about if we really want the indoctrination theory to have room to exist the main game would need to lay off on some of its "claim" over the world and story much like how I would prefer the TES series to lay off some parts of the world and story beat so player's own take on things can actually manifest physically through mods.

    Another thing is player investment and valuing the player's time. The longer a game goes on it is safe to say the player is more invested in it and the stakes are now even higher in terms of satisfaction vs disappointment, and that is an exponential climb since the longer a game goes it usually enable more player agency. A disappointing outcome at the end of mere hours is less of a thorn in ones eye than one that has "wasted" hundreds of hours and across multiple years of a player's time investment.

    With that definition of RPGs I can almost certainly say no RPGs has ever had a story that I can get behind fully, hell ME is probably the closest of the lots.

    JRPGs on the other hand...give me all your badly translated animu melodrama bullshit and inject it straight into my veins!