Has Beth lost its edge on RPG gaming?

[Guest endgameaddiction]

Equal rights, man. Equal rights.

 

And I already told you (yes I know who you are) to just put people on your ignore list if you don't want to read their stuff.

[Kendo 2]

'I don't like what you're saying therefore you're not allowed to say it.'

A lot of that going around these days.

[chestcraft]

every single thing you just posted screams frustration mixed with anger for a game you haven't the slightest clue about other then a bunch of garbage posted on youtube. at least others that have voiced negetively on LL at least played the game. you hate it just to be hating. Seems some people can't handle the thought of having to take on the horrors that a child brings to a game nor the responsibilities associated with it. But then claim the game is shit and act like it's a fact that everyone should abide by. You can't stand that others may like the game so you resort to name calling, yeah very mature and adult like of you. I have no problem with people who are vocal about something they do not like and try to discuss it. but after 15 threads out of plus 30 threads are closed because of the constant garbage spewing in threads where people are trying to "discuss" the game not turn it into a regurgitation of page after page of the same hateful garbage. yeah it gets old real fast. Ok so you dislike the game, now move on and let others discuss it without the constant force feeding of your opinions.

 

So...forced opinions meet forced opinions? Life is just one big circle. This is a good example of what not to do. If your gonna complain about a certain thing, do not do the same thing.

 

 

And on the subject of youtube videos being used to makeup someones mind up about a game well...Thats incredibly smart actually. Just reading any written review isnt enough and will most likely get you into buying something you honestly do not want. Especially when people upload full playthroughs and reviews with actual footage to show what they are talking about. SO "hating" on this game without even playing it, makes more sense than you make it out to be as. I had the same opinion of the game just by watching videos of it on youtube as I did when I played it, although I still got it, more for the fact I could say I had it and add it to my collection and yes, you should maybe find a alternative to how you go about reading things on this forum(Just a friendly suggestion) instead of telling others how to do things, as I said Just a suggestion, do what you want.

[GrimReaper]

 

I'm so glad we could have this discussion on a grown up and adult level.

 

 

That would be the bit in-between the bit where Coddsworth hijacks all four conversation choices to make you talk about the brat whether you want to or not, and the bit where Mama Murphy reveals that her psychic junkie hallucinations have granted her mystic knowledge of your personal tragedy, which she's going insist you talk about or the quest won't advance.

 

Well, for me, I guess a big part of it is that the tribal kid has yet to choose a career, get married, have children, buy a house, make a speech to a local veterans group or any of those sort of character defining things. If the game keeps telling you that your character is an early-thirties pre-war lady lawyer and a recently widowed single mum, it's going to be problematic if you want to play someone who doesn't share all of those qualities.

 

 

That was an honest question. FO4 tries really hard to give you things to do other than the MQ, and the 'muh baby' part lasts for half of the main story or so. You're free to explore the world at your leisure as soon as you leave the vault. What's in between leaving the vault and rescuing the psychic junkie is entirely up to you - or if you even speak to mama murphy, which I didn't. The only hard trigger for the MQ to advance would be talking to Ellie and initiating the 'Rescue Nick' quest.

 

Again, like I said - what you character was in the old world doesn't translate into the new one at all. Growing up as a tribal however doesn't give you as much freedom, because you're already ingrained with the culture and ethics of said tribe. Playing someone who doesn't give a shit isn't going to be that believable because your mother is the elder of the tribe and the plans are you are going the save the village by retrieving the GECK and most likely becoming the new elder once your mother passes away. That's hardly something you'd entrust a selfish prick with, isn't it? Unless you pretend that the entire village consists of braindead monkeys who never ever had the slightest idea that you are an idiot who can't be trusted. Besides, it always ends with the destruction of the Enclave's oil rig, no matter what you do. Or you end your playthrough before that happens, but that can hardly be counted in the game's favor.

[GrimReaper]

I've read the entirety of your post, just cutting down the quote to make things easier to read.

 

[...]

Don't know how or why you can't see that, but the answer is actually very simple. FO2 doesn't attempt to define your character's personality (neither does FNV or Skyrim), it just gives you a basic background and a quest. FO4, however, clearly and explicitly indicates that you are parent who is traumatized by the death of his spouse and kidnapping of his son. Now, you, as the player, can pretend that your character couldn't cope with all that and is now fucked up in the head. Now, all he wants is to play 50's music and blow things up, shoot Deathclaws with miniguns... or just build settlements for dumbass NPCs etc. This is quite possibly the only way you, as your character, can justify not searching for your son. However, from what I understand, the game doesn't even allow you do that, like it doesn't allow you to be an evil character either. In other words, FO4 feels much more limiting in terms of sandbox gameplay.

 

 

You're right, I misunderstood what you meant. Anyway, yeah, it is possible to play FO4 like that, but the voiced character doesn't make it easier to pretend you're someone else. As soon as you leave the vault, you can go wherever you want. You might stumble across a character that is tied to the main quest in one way or another, but the majority of the quests have nothing to do with your missing kid. Even if you have the option to talk about your kid, you almost always have the option to tell people it's none of their damn businiess.

 

Maybe it's because I played on very hard my first two playthroughs and now on survival with the update that changed that difficulty, but I found it really hard to simply follow the MQ because you hit a wall pretty soon if you don't get better gear and a few levels under your belt. You need a nice supply of scrap to get your weapon mods, a steady supply of drugs like psycho, jet and the like to get through tough encounters and you won't have access to that without exploring first.

 

About being evil, well, I think FO4 handles that pretty well. You can't be the typical chaotic evil douchebag who picks evil options simply for the sake of being evil, but you can be a greedy, violent, backstabbing and untrustworthy guy/gal. Being evil is not an end in itself, and FO4 does that pretty well in my opinion. You still care about yourself and your own, though - like most people, no matter how evil or messer up they are, do.

 

 

But I guess at the end of the day, some people like what a game offers them and some don't. I like FO4, I don't think it's a great game, it's simply a good game (in my opinion) that I can enjoy to varying degrees. Ironically enough, I do think that FO4 is the best Fallout to day - and that's because it's the first Fallout that doesn't have at least one villain that has the depth and quality of a saturday morning cartoon villain. New Vegas came close, but really dropped the ball with Caesar's Legion for me. That whole faction just reeks of 'yeah well we needed a really, really evil faction so people can be really, really evil and do evil stuff and shit'.
 

[Ernest Lemmingway]

New Vegas came close, but really dropped the ball with Caesar's Legion for me. That whole faction just reeks of 'yeah well we needed a really, really evil faction so people can be really, really evil and do evil stuff and shit'.

 

 

 

Caesar's Legion was actually historically accurate to what the real Roman Legion did and believed. In those days that's how war was waged by all sides. What we today would consider atrocities and war crimes were just common practice back then. All NV did was highlight the horrific realities of it. It was actually as refreshing as it was repulsive to see someone not pull the punches when it came to the ugly truths of history.

[Asrayl]

I was going to leave this essay length post... it touched on a few problems with developing in general, highlighted the human tendency to romanticize the past, and pointed out the glaring problem of stagnation in the overall approach of Bethsoft games. 

 

But while my head could analyze it for hours, my heart has only one thing to say; the bethsoft writers seem burned out.

[DocClox]

That was an honest question.

Fair enough. Something about the way you phrased the question made it sound like you were being petulant and sarcastic for no good reason. But since it's an honest question, here is an honest answer: yes, I have played the game.

 

So now you know.

 

FO4 tries really hard to give you things to do other than the MQ

I'm not saying it doesn't. You can build settlements; you can let Preston scribble all over your map; you can engage with some of the (lamentably few) side quests; you can try and get into Cait's knickers or you can just trawl the Commonwealth looking for Amusingly Posed Bears.

 

I'm just not clear on how any of this is useful from a role-playing perspective when the only thing you should care about is finding the damn baby.

 

and the 'muh baby' part lasts for half of the main story or so.

Yeah. It lasts for half the game. It was tedious after 30 seconds and it lasts for half the damn game.

 

You're free to explore the world at your leisure as soon as you leave the vault. What's in between leaving the vault and rescuing the psychic junkie is entirely up to you - or if you even speak to mama murphy, which I didn't. The only hard trigger for the MQ to advance would be talking to Ellie and initiating the 'Rescue Nick' quest.

Your point was (or appeared to be) that the the game didn't "force" you to consider the story and you cited as evidence the fact that you could fight a deathclaw with a minigun while wearing power armour within minutes of leaving the vault. All I was doing was pointing out that the deeply immersive and utterly non-gratuitous combat you mentioned is nevertheless bracketed at either end by events designed to draw the players attention back to the plot, whether they like it or not.

 

(And the one and only time I tried not talking to Mama M in the museum, Preston and Co. glitched and wouldn't leave the Museum foyer, although I'll grant that's probably a bug rather than actual deliberate design. But I digress...)

 

Again, like I said - what you character was in the old world doesn't translate into the new one at all. Growing up as a tribal however doesn't give you as much freedom, because you're already ingrained with the culture and ethics of said tribe.

And I honestly don't see how that's relevant. The lady lawyer won't know how the Commonwealth works because she's out of her time. The tribal won't know how the world works because the kid's led a sheltered upbringing in Arroyo and hasn't a clue about the culture outside of the tribe. Both characters are essentially ignorant of the world in which they find themselves and from that point of view, both are well crafted. The tribal kid has no more idea of what to expect in Broken Hills or Gecko than Nora does about Diamond City, or Goodneighbour and that's how it should be in both cases.

 

The point I was making is that someone has studied for a law degree, had a successful career as a lawyer, married, made a home and started a family has got a lot of character traits pre-establised. By contrast the tribal kid is a wet-behind-the-ears brat who even has to be shown how to make healing powder. You can develop the tribal's personality in pretty much any way you want, but your educated, professional single mum is always going to be basically a solid citizen driven by maternal instincts. Granted you can RP some sort of mental breakdown and turn your back on all that, but now you're playing an insane, educated mid-thirties professional desperately trying to deny her maternal instincts. There's no real getting away from the character the game imposes upon you.

 

Playing someone who doesn't give a shit isn't going to be that believable because your mother is the elder of the tribe and the plans are you are going the save the village by retrieving the GECK and most likely becoming the new elder once your mother passes away. That's hardly something you'd entrust a selfish prick with, isn't it?

Meh. The task gets entrusted to you because you're the one that survives the maze with the ants and the traps and the scorpion and the guy the left outside at the end to beat you up. It's not because of who you are or because of your outstanding moral fiber. If you'd blown yourself up with the plastic explosive in there, someone else would have been sent in your place. It's not about who you are.

 

Unless you pretend that the entire village consists of braindead monkeys who never ever had the slightest idea that you are an idiot who can't be trusted.

I suppose it's not as if you could just be a teenager away from home for the first time who gets distracted and led astray by all the interesting new things you encounter out in the big bad world. I mean despite your best intentions to the contrary. Because that sort of thing never happens in real life, right?

 

Besides, it always ends with the destruction of the Enclave's oil rig, no matter what you do. Or you end your playthrough before that happens, but that can hardly be counted in the game's favor.

 

So ... you think it would have been a better game if the Enclave were a little more morally ambiguous so that you could join them, be accepted by a faction of xenophobic genetic purists who disregard your obvious genetic disqualifications, and subsequently become leader so you can spout some exposition about how you were going to achieve the the Enclave's aims of eradicating all non-Enclave human life in a more caring, less evil sort of way?

[shinji72]

Baby aside... The problem with FO4 is that they present you the character you're going to play with. And they voiced it.

 

They are showed briefly but it's more than enough. They look nice people, living in their nice suburbia house. They are what you're supposed to impersonate.

It's a complete departure from what has made Beth games great. 

In morrowind/oblivion/skyrim/fo/foNv they don't even show your character in the intro. You have to create and shape him/her, both physically and psychically,  with your imagination. 

In FO4, you have to impersonate one of this two, already well shaped and defined, dudes. A war veteran or his loving wife.

And then the voice... the voice defines the characters. How many different characters can you play if they all share the same voice, the same tone, the same emotions? 
Voicing the main character is the main single disaster in Fo4. It really the mother of all sins leading to a vast series of bad consequences (less resources to develop sidequest, no rpg, no character creation, no immersion).

They tried to go with the something like the Witcher (or mass effect). But that's a different game, which should not be taken as a model for a Bethesda style RPG game.

 

[GrimReaper]

Baby aside... The problem with FO4 is that they present you the character you're going to play with. And they voiced it.

 

They are showed briefly but it's more than enough. They look nice people, living in their nice suburbia house. They are what you're supposed to impersonate.

It's a complete departure from what has made Beth games great. 

In morrowind/oblivion/skyrim/fo/foNv they don't even show your character in the intro. You have to create and shape him/her, both physically and psychically,  with your imagination. 

In FO4, you have to impersonate one of this two, already well shaped and defined, dudes. A war veteran or his loving wife.

 

And then the voice... the voice defines the characters. How many different characters can you play if they all share the same voice, the same tone, the same emotions? 

Voicing the main character is the main single disaster in Fo4. It really the mother of all sins leading to a vast series of bad consequences (less resources to develop sidequest, no rpg, no character creation, no immersion).

 

They tried to go with the something like the Witcher (or mass effect). But that's a different game, which should not be taken as a model for a Bethesda style RPG game.

 

 

 

The voice is a problem, yes. But what your character is like is largerly decided by you. Go watch or read any post-apocalyptic stories where the survivors turn from genuinely nice and caring people into ice cold killers and/or maniacs. It's a trope that has been around for ages. Being an upstanding citizen suddenly doesn't mean all that much anymore if your neighbour is trying to eat you and any stranger is more likely to put a bullet between your eyes than greet you.

 

Post-apocalyptic worlds have always been a good and somewhat believable way of completely re-imagining a character. So while your character is set in stone in the intro/tutorial of FO4, there is nothing better to smash that into pieces and rearrange that than an apocalypse happening. The whole search for your baby thing is the anchor that puts your character into place in FO4, much like the waterchip and the survival of Vault 13 in FO1, Arroyo and their need for the GECK in FO2, the search for your father in FO3 and the retrieval of the platinum chip in FNV. If you wanted a blank slate character in any of the Fallout games you had to ignore a large part of what your character is and play make-believe that he or she is actually someone else. For example, FO2 never supported you being an aged and grizzled wastelander. FO1 always forced you to be a vault dweller.

 

If you really think about it, Fallout games never really allowed for a truly blank slate character, but they somewhat made it possible for you to pretend you are someone else, which basically worked until you did another main quest. Fallout never really gave you the freedom of defining your character like the TES games did where you are basically a no one that happens to be a very important person later down in the story. But up until you take up the mantle of the Nerevarine, Hero of Kvatch or Dragonborn you could've been anyone. Fallout never really supported that kind of character, imo.

 

[bjornk]

Playing someone who doesn't give a shit isn't going to be that believable because your mother is the elder of the tribe and the plans are you are going the save the village by retrieving the GECK and most likely becoming the new elder once your mother passes away. That's hardly something you'd entrust a selfish prick with, isn't it?

Would they entrust a complete dumbass who can't even talk properly with that kind of thing? Well, they would, apparently. What I mean is, if you can play the game and finish it with a stupid character who *can't* even give a shit, then anything is possible.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

It was stupid for bethesda to put too much emphasis on defining your character because for those who want to play as a homosexual don't get to. I highly doubt someone who's a homosexual wants to pretend to be someone who's a heterosexual and suddenly becomes a homosexual. Whether it's because you no longer have your spouse, or you were injected with something in your cryogenic chamber and all of a sudden you have this urge and desire to find the same sex attractive.

 

I didn't mind the pre-introduction to the game. It was a fine touch of glimpse to see what someone used to be and what changes them. I got that whole experience with the Lone Wanderer as being an innocent vault dweller that didn't know jack and changed throughout time in the wasteland. Which made it possible when blowing up Megaton. When choosing to let the ghouls swarm in to Tenpenny Tower and kill off all the wannabe high class residents. etc...

 

After watching a video, it made sense that the introduction was rather dull. It would of been better if Shaun was older and you interacted with them more. Maybe then you would actually care enough to want to find them. Not everyone, but I did care about James. I felt I had a purpose because those interactions there with the child and their father.

 

This shit reminds me of New Vegas and the whole revenge plot that made little to no sense to me. Forcing you the protagonist to care about something you feel you don't need to because lets face it, the only thing you are doing is finding out about your child. But do you actually care about Shaun enough to want to find them? I know I don't. Which is why, to me, it would of been better if not only the spouse died, but Shaun died too. And ascending from the vault out into the world would just give me the freedom to do what I want with no attachments. And if I wanted to, I could find a reason to care about the faction I join. But the whole "i have to find my son" is no longer there.

[GrimReaper]

 

Playing someone who doesn't give a shit isn't going to be that believable because your mother is the elder of the tribe and the plans are you are going the save the village by retrieving the GECK and most likely becoming the new elder once your mother passes away. That's hardly something you'd entrust a selfish prick with, isn't it?

Would they entrust a complete dumbass who can't even talk properly with that kind of thing? Well, they would, apparently. What I mean is, if you can play the game and finish it with a stupid character who *can't* even give a shit, then anything is possible.

 

 

Yeah, you're right. But on the other hand I never considered a dumb PC to be a serious playthrough or one that would make it into the canon, if you know what I mean. Entrusting someone who can't tell one end of the gun from the other with the survival of your people makes you dumber than the retard.

[DocClox]

Yeah, you're right. But on the other hand I never considered a dumb PC to be a serious or playthrough or one that would make it into the canon, if you know what I mean. Entrusting someone who can't tell one end of the gun from the other with the survival of your people makes you dumber than the retard.

Unless that's what the gods want, of course. Stupider decisions have been made on the basis of less than that.

 

But yeah,. you've got your character conception, and your idea of what ought to be cannon, and that's fair enough. I just don't think it's the only valid interpretation.

 

Personally, I remember riffing on the cynical, sarcastic know-it-all kid who kept raggin on Hakunin to talk properly and who couldn't wait to get out of Arroyo and see the "real world". He was devastated when he got back and saw what had happened of course, but up until then he didn't take the old man's visions too seriously. I think that's probably as valid as anything else.

[GrimReaper]

 

Unless that's what the gods want, of course. Stupider decisions have been made on the basis of less than that.

 

But yeah,. you've got your character conception, and your idea of what ought to be cannon, and that's fair enough. I just don't think it's the only valid interpretation.

 

Personally, I remember riffing on the cynical, sarcastic know-it-all kid who kept raggin on Hakunin to talk properly and who couldn't wait to get out of Arroyo and see the "real world". He was devastated when he got back and saw what had happened of course, but up until then he didn't take the old man's visions too seriously. I think that's probably as valid as anything else.

 

 

The problem I have with a dumb character is that the only way for him or her to get anything done other than dying of asphyxiation because they forgot to breathe is relying on the player to do things that are required, obviously out of reach for a character that can neither speak nor understand what other people say.

 

It's the kind of metagaming that has no place in RPGs, imo. The same as walking in a trap that you know won't kill you because you have 150hp yet the trap will only deal 50 damage and you are to lazy to diffuse it - it's a decision the player makes and not one the character makes.

[bjornk]

You can create a "thief" character if you want to, who is good at lockpicking and stealing. A thief, who has most likely honed her skills by stealing from her tribe, because where else she could practice those skills, right? No matter what her mother and the rest of tribe think of her, she hates living in Arroyo and she'd much prefer fame and fortune, a luxurious life style in the outside world to her miserable life as a tribal, the sort of person who would love living in Reno.

 

Well, that's the sort of a character, which would make more sense in a sandbox playthrough though, especially when you intend to ignore the main quest, but if the purpose is to complete the game by returning the GECK and destroying the Enclave and all that, your character would need to "care", at least at some point in the game. So yeah, the game is designed around the idea that you'll role-play as a fairly intelligent, at least a little bit heroic and not a completely evil character. You can, of course, finish the game with a different type of character, but it wouldn't be a very coherent story in the end. The game or rather the plot doesn't really support all sorts of diverse characters, as it wasn't really designed as a sandbox game. You can, however, play it as one, at least up to point.

 

[DocClox]

The problem I have with a dumb character is that the only way for him or her to get anything done other than dying of asphyxiation because they forgot to breathe is relying on the player to do things that are required, obviously out of reach for a character that can neither speak nor understand what other people say.

You can RP that in a few ways if you want, though. Pure dumb luck is one. Another is that your companions are doing all the heavy thinking and letting you think it's your doing (and that your character is too dumb to notice) or that they're taking the credit when it works and letting you take the blame when it doesn't. Or maybe they just like you and they're trying to help.

 

Did you ever see "Without a Clue" by any chance? Ben Kingsley & Michael Caine. It's a Holmes and Watson movie where Watson is the brains of the outfit and Holmes is an idiot out-of-work actor hired by Watson to play the Great Detective because Watson doesn't have the force of personality to get people to take him seriously. There are a few ways to construct a narrative around a less-than-perfect protagonist.

 

It's the kind of metagaming that has no place in RPGs, imo. The same as walking in a trap that you know won't kill you because you have 150hp yet the trap will only deal 50 damage and you are to lazy to diffuse it - it's a decision the player makes and not one the character makes.

Metagaming is bad because it demonstrates a certain studied contempt for the game setting. It cheapens your experience and that of everyone else involved. I'm just not sure that's what happens in the case of a low-int chosen one - or at least I'm not sure it's necessarily what's happening there. I mean, you can metagame just as much by choosing a high int because for the extra dialogue options and XP, and by following the MQ because completing quests advances levels faster than killing random radscorpion encounters in the wilderness. The way I see it, it's not what you do so much as the spirit in which you do it.

[DieLiebeKrieg]

Lets say in comparison to Fallout New Vegas, even Fallout 3, Bethesda did degrade in some of its abilities when it came to FO4, but I believe it was for a new sense of appeal, with the new elements that would attract the lights of shooter based gamers to try out the game, I'd like to call it 'dumbing it down' for the sake of more revenue.  

[Drakenred]

Given that the way the game usualy playes out you can easily end up going all over the freaking map, so the concept of "Gota find my baby"... goes out the airlock faster than a the fart of a nudist when they blow the airlock hatch off. . . its kind of hard to feel the story locks you  into anything.

[DocClox]

Given that the way the game usualy playes out you can easily end up going all over the freaking map, so the concept of "Gota find my baby"... goes out the airlock faster than a the fart of a nudist when they blow the airlock hatch off. . . its kind of hard to feel the story locks you  into anything.

My complaint isn't so much that I'm locked into something. I don't mind loading a vault exit save, creating a character from there and playing without having to sit through the "aw gee honey, play with his mobile" crap. My objection is that the game keeps pulling me out of my character and back into the one I'm supposed to be playing.

 

Talk to Coddsworth: oh look! All the choices lead to talking about the baby. My character even tells me what I intend to do, just in case I was confused. OK, maybe I can just yeah-yeah-yeah my way through that. Rescue Preston and Co. Well gosh, Mama Murphy has had a mystic junkie vision about the baby. What are the odds? Off to Abernathy Farm? "It's a terrible thing to have your child taken from you", I find myself saying. Yeah right. Just in case I was in any doubt about how I was supposed to feel. And so it goes.

 

Don't get me wrong: once I get to Diamond City the game stops bludgeoning round the head with the plot quite so much and I can start having a good time. That lasts until I get to the Institute and meet Father at which point the Stupid descends again in full force.

 

It's not about being forced to do anything, and it's not about being locked into or out of anything. It's about the degree to which the game supports your attempts to role play. Previous Bethesda games have gone out of their way to let you play as wide a range of characters as possible. Fallout 4 goes out of its way to stop you from deviating from the script. It keeps reminding of who you are supposed to be, of what you're supposed to want and of how you're supposed to feel. It's a completely different approach and not at all what I look for in Bethesda games.

[GrimReaper]

 

Metagaming is bad because it demonstrates a certain studied contempt for the game setting. It cheapens your experience and that of everyone else involved. I'm just not sure that's what happens in the case of a low-int chosen one - or at least I'm not sure it's necessarily what's happening there. I mean, you can metagame just as much by choosing a high int because for the extra dialogue options and XP, and by following the MQ because completing quests advances levels faster than killing random radscorpion encounters in the wilderness. The way I see it, it's not what you do so much as the spirit in which you do it.

 

 

That would be powergaming. Which is a subtype of metagaming, but metagaming itself involves everything where your character acts based on you knowing that you play a game and not how your character would act. Like doing risky and most likely lethal things because you know you just did a quicksave a few seconds ago and so on.

 

Playing a character that is literally unable to comprehend spoken words requires you to go out of character because while you know what your next goal is, you character simply doesn't. Playing a genius while being of average intelligence yourself comes with similar problems, but those can be remedied by the character giving you hints on what to do next.

 

 

You can create a "thief" character if you want to, who is good at lockpicking and stealing. A thief, who has most likely honed her skills by stealing from her tribe, because where else she could practice those skills, right? No matter what her mother and the rest of tribe think of her, she hates living in Arroyo and she'd much prefer fame and fortune, a luxurious life style in the outside world to her miserable life as a tribal, the sort of person who would love living in Reno.

 

Well, that's the sort of a character, which would make more sense in a sandbox playthrough though, especially when you intend to ignore the main quest, but if the purpose is to complete the game by returning the GECK and destroying the Enclave and all that, your character would need to "care", at least at some point in the game. So yeah, the game is designed around the idea that you'll role-play as a fairly intelligent, at least a little bit heroic and not a completely evil character. You can, of course, finish the game with a different type of character, but it wouldn't be a very coherent story in the end. The game or rather the plot doesn't really support all sorts of diverse characters, as it wasn't really designed as a sandbox game. You can, however, play it as one, at least up to point.

 

Yes, I agree with you. Playing a stupid character is different however, because that character is literally to dumb to understand when spoken to and unable to speak him-/herself. The player however is not, which is why the vegetable is able to do things other than trying to eat or squash everything that moves. i always thought that the stupid character is something along the lines of the crashed Star Trek shuttle. It's in the game and there for you to enjoy, but it makes little to no sense.

[DocClox]

That would be powergaming. Which is a subtype of metagaming, but metagaming itself involves everything where your character acts based on you knowing that you play a game and not how your character would act. Like doing risky and most likely lethal things because you know you just did a quicksave a few seconds ago and so on.

 

Playing a character that is literally unable to comprehend spoken words requires you to go out of character because while you know what your next goal is, you character simply doesn't. Playing a genius while being of average intelligence yourself comes with similar problems, but those can be remedied by the character giving you hints on what to do next.

Yes, yes, yes. The point being it's a continuum. There's not a clear distinction. Everyone, necessarily meta/powergames to some extent. You need to in order to find the keyboard with your fingers or to see where the dice have rolled to.

 

Buy hey, you play it the way you think it should played.

[GrimReaper]

 

Yes, yes, yes. The point being it's a continuum. There's not a clear distinction. Everyone, necessarily meta/powergames to some extent. You need to in order to find the keyboard with your fingers or to see where the dice have rolled to.

 

Buy hey, you play it the way you think it should played.

 

 

But there is a clear distinction. Every powergamer is a metagamer but not every metagamer is a powergamer. Metagaming simply describes every instance where you character isn't acting like the character would based on his personality and traits. That might be when you are always picking the options that gives you the biggest benefit, like being a saint in one quest and a complete psycho in the next because you'll get the most out of both quest if you behave that way - that would be powergaming.

 

Or simply throwing a couple of grenades to your feet for shits and giggles and to see your character fly - that would be metagaming. You know you can simply reload an earlier save and act like nothing happened.

 

Metagaming however describes NOT you knowing that you play a game and has also nothing to do with any input devices you may use to get your character moving.

[DocClox]

Metagaming however describes NOT you knowing that you play a game and has also nothing to do with any input devices you may use to get your character moving.

You can't play a game and stay completely in character, simply because your character doesn't know he or she is a character in a game. You have to disassociate from your role in order to handle the mechanics of playing the actual game. It's that simple.

 

But like I said before: you play the game the way you think it should be played.

[cabron777]

i don't see any rpg stuff in this game i play it as a fps strategy simulator with mods . the most disgusting and retarded story line for me the most stupid and retarded characters the face of npc's when they asking for help make me wanna send tactical nuclear bombs to beth headquarters . but its just me . those who like it good for you