[Idea - Input wanted] Nudity law for a city in Skyrim

[WaxenFigure]

Following on from a comment by DocClox in the Slaverun thread

 

...

 

Personally, i want to play around with some of the nudity law ideas without the massive addition of objects, npcs and scripts. Maybe with a little more love for the male PC who wants to make use of some of the bountiful assets he sees around him and some progressive penalties between nudity and enslavement for the free-but-willful female PC.

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/31111-slaverun/?p=824662

 

Rather than hijack the Slaverun thread which has a nudity law as a part of the Mod I would like to explore the idea of nudity law in a Skyrim city without the additional slaves etc that are added by Slaverun.

 

The topics then are "Full Nudity", "Partial Nudity" or "Wear Sexy Exposing Clothing" or all three based on various conditions.

 

What justification should be used for the law?

 

When should the law appear in game?

 

Who should be subject to the law? (MCM configurable?)

 

What should change in that city as a result of the law? (NPC behaviors, objects around town...)

 

 

 

I just want to try to flesh out this idea somewhat. I was trying to develop a script to enforce the law for the Slaverun mod on all the mods I have that add NPCs to Whiterun without having to create custom patches for each mod when that comment by DocClox got me thinking about the whole idea.

 

My aforementioned script actually works quite well except for the problem that its far too slow, I have already come up with a plan that will fix the slow problem but I thought it might be fun to make a separate mod of it but perhaps still usable for the purposes of Slaverun. (If not directly usable then at least copyable so it could be used in that mod with whatever changes it takes).

 

This is such a creative community that I'd like to get everyones ideas on this, I have a few ideas of my own but I'm not fixated on them so I won't start the thread with more than just a few generics because someone else may be inspired to come up with a truly magnificent idea and I wouldn't want to damage that idea by having it forced into fitting with my ideas.

[afa]

Well I have posted this idea in Slaverun already, and do plan to at least attempt to look at how to set it up at least as a prove of concept in the CK, but I guess I will post it again.

 

Basically the degree of the law (full/partial/expose) can be a variable that is determine from choices, quests, action, inaction, and/or dialog that the PC make. MCM toggle can serve as a "cheat" or a baseline.

It can be as complex as needed, or perhaps start with something simple and "local" (only focus on one town or hold)

 

Possible scenarios that affect it:

 

1. Crime, security tighten as crime rate increases, so no weapons at first, next step could be no armor (clothing ok), then further lead to no gloves/boots/clothing altogether.

2. Without the obvious slavery visuals the slave trade idea sort of get shaft, but I guess we can have NPCs to compensate for that, say if the Hold is more tolerant of servants, lead into possible slaves then start stripping them.

3. Civil war progress is another one. Winner has more prisoner, loser have more widows, is more paranoid of spies, more rampant crime, etc. Although I am usually not too hot on depending on vanilla quests especially if they are irreversible.

4. Corruption, someway, somehow the town is getting more and more corrupt rather it is sexually related or again crime related or just lawlessness. Nudity law gets enforce in the process either for safety reason or for corrupted reason. Could also be a social class thing.

5. Citizen vs non citizen, citizen might be ok to wear more while non citizen might need to strip. Advantage to owning a house? some sort of Fame? a Thane?

 

One issue I see having is that there's only a few "Closed" Holds in the game where the law implementation would be contain within a cell. Whiterun, Solitude, Riften, Windhelm, and Markarth all other Holds and town are "open" so they are part of the open world and I don't think the law needs to be enforce in the wilderness. That could be a global scale development further on by tracking different Holds' various level.

 

To alter the degree of the law there could be minor (probably radiant) quests/events that happens in town:

1. Bribery, can bribe to keep PC's clothes on, but could feeds into corrupting the place.

2. Freeing a prisoner, might lead to lowering the acceptance of public nudity, but could increase crime.

3. Helping a servant might decrease the acceptance of slavery, failing to or decide not to help might lead deeper into the path.

4. Committing crime yourself lead to the need for tighten security or label PC as dangerous for a while.

5. Can directly influence the enforcing or relaxing the law by bribery, gather opinions from citizen, persuasion/intimidation. Might also backfire depending on various conditions or chances.

 

NPC reactions might be hard to deal with. There could be positive or negative reaction to the law base on gender, social status, and does the law affect them or not.

Mostly we are probably looking at the NPC's reactions to the PC. Male NPC against a female PC might give a positive reaction to the law, female not affected vs female PC might say something like they are glad they aren't the PC, or if they share the same fate they might comment on the law negatively or saying they are on the same boat. There could also be neutral comments for those who doesn't care one way or another, the "just following the law" type, the "I rather this than crime" type.

Also is it possible to have NPC and object to spawn and despawn depending on the various parameters of the Hold.

 

Gameplay is another thing to consider I guess, locking up everything away like Slaverun imo is too much of an inconvenience since that effectively stop all buying and selling, but I guess under the strictest of scenario it can happen. There's also the possibility of the town getting attack by vampires and such.

[leopardus]

There are a couple of ideas. While the heroine naked, it does not attack anyone. Upon entering the house Jarl it must undress until it becomes Thane. Also in all the guilds and temples. Until it becomes a member thereof or fails to fulfill the quest of the temple.
Punishment must be quick: take away all the clothes and whip.

Excuse me, but do not speak English.

[sen4mi]

Your concept here is plausibly close to a mod that I have been thinking of maybe making so perhaps some of my thoughts will help you realize yours.

 

I think I remember a "Repopulating the Wasteland" mod, or quest, or something, and I think that that would be a great series of quests. In the Fallout realm, civilization failed, and everyone is going to have their own ideas about why and what to do about it. And one response to being overrun is: make lots of babies, grow lots of food, build lots of houses, etc. etc. This, in turn, suggests a variety of quests for the player character to pursue, to help make this happen. Quests to increase fertility rates, sex drive, restore lost technology, etc. would all fit in naturally here (and hopefully come back to bite the player enough to make the game interesting). Of course that was fallout and this was skyrim. Still, the racial wars of skyrim might drive people in some similar ways (and the lost dwarven ruins can always serve for ... sorry, let's focus on your mod idea).

 

So maybe a "doing your duty" type town would try and enforce attractiveness.

 

Another motivation might be "what are you hiding". Here, wearing concealing clothes would be a crime because of some past incidents of violence, or whatever.

 

However, if you want this to be slightly realistic you should probably also make some kinds of arrangements to so people wouldn't be overly sunburnt, baked, frozen and/or stabbed to death by the environment. 

 

[RandomOne]

Well, in Riften, getting caught stealing without guild sanction could be penalized by forcing you to go nakie with the justification that without clothes you cant steal anything. You could even have lady blackbriar set you up to get caught because you have annoyed her.

[pinky6225]

Your concept here is plausibly close to a mod that I have been thinking of maybe making so perhaps some of my thoughts will help you realize yours.

 

I think I remember a "Repopulating the Wasteland" mod, or quest, or something, and I think that that would be a great series of quests. In the Fallout realm, civilization failed, and everyone is going to have their own ideas about why and what to do about it. And one response to being overrun is: make lots of babies, grow lots of food, build lots of houses, etc. etc. This, in turn, suggests a variety of quests for the player character to pursue, to help make this happen. Quests to increase fertility rates, sex drive, restore lost technology, etc. would all fit in naturally here (and hopefully come back to bite the player enough to make the game interesting). Of course that was fallout and this was skyrim. Still, the racial wars of skyrim might drive people in some similar ways (and the lost dwarven ruins can always serve for ... sorry, let's focus on your mod idea).

 

So maybe a "doing your duty" type town would try and enforce attractiveness.

 

Another motivation might be "what are you hiding". Here, wearing concealing clothes would be a crime because of some past incidents of violence, or whatever.

 

However, if you want this to be slightly realistic you should probably also make some kinds of arrangements to so people wouldn't be overly sunburnt, baked, frozen and/or stabbed to death by the environment. 

 

Both Markath (forsworn attacks) and Windhelm (Butcher attacks) would make sense for forbidding the concealing of weapons or wearing garments that can conceal weapons.

 

Those two quests completing could be the trigger for the law beginning.

 

I think justifications for only chicks being nude are going to be hard to come by though but again i doubt peeps are gonna want lots of nude dudes around either (from discussion in one of the other slave related threads)

 

[badbat111]

only thing that bugged me about slaverun was the fact that you was told to be nude yet the games basic talk kept happening about put some dam clothes on XD if you could nail that to remove that bloody comment it would be helpfull to streakers

[WaxenFigure]

only thing that bugged me about slaverun was the fact that you was told to be nude yet the games basic talk kept happening about put some dam clothes on XD if you could nail that to remove that bloody comment it would be helpfull to streakers

I know exactly what to mod to replace the "naked" comments, in a nudity required environment in fact I want the comments to continue but to be about tits, ass, pussy, sex and for the guys their dick. At some point I'll also need some help coming up with the comments for each of the voice types (unvoiced but the personality is attached to the voice so...) but first we need some why we are doing this reasons.

[ErikModi]

So, if I understand what you're trying to do, rather than enforcing "indecent exposure" laws, instead characters are punished for crimes or other behaviors by being forced to strip?

 

I like!

[D_ManXX2]

only thing that bugged me about slaverun was the fact that you was told to be nude yet the games basic talk kept happening about put some dam clothes on XD if you could nail that to remove that bloody comment it would be helpfull to streakers

 

The mod needs a dialog to only appear when entering Whiterun so something like if == in Whiterun then the dialog is visible.

 

But instead of how it is right now. maybe make special packages will force an npc to greet the player demanding to undress that way you won't even need to have the dialog added like it is now.

 

Check how those couriers work. they will only walk up to you when they have something to tell you maybe make that brutus force greet the player when player is dressed then demand the undress part. if this happens a second time then the enslave quest triggered because you did not do what they told you before.

[traveller_phi]

Sex specific nudity laws can be a bit tricky to justify. Also add in that most female citizens will be someone's daughter and/or wife it would become more realistic to only strip "outsiders" But things can also change over time. If doable, I would recommend the mod tracking 4 parameters per hold (and 4 related flags defined lower):

 

1. Female citizen dress code
2. Female "outsider" dress code
3. Male citizen dress code
4. Male "outsider" dress code

To start with the 4 parameters could be set in MCM by the player as appropriate for how they envision Skyrim should currently be. But there should also be hooks so mods like Slaverun could set the laws appropriately, and also allow mods to raise or lower the dress code depending on game events. (Does the player do something to encourage stricter or looser laws?)

 

The levels:

1. All dress options allowed (no dress code)
2. Allow "skimpy" armor and all clothing
3. Allow only clothing
4. Allow only "skimpy" clothing
5. Nudity only.

 

The flags mentioned earlier would define if "skimpy" armor counts as clothing rather than armor in the above rules. This would essentially collapse 2 and 3 to the same level if true. May be good to just have one flag covering all 4 categories: female, male, citizen, and outsider combinations.

 

The hard part is the "skimpy" definition. I would suggest an MCM option to define particular outfit as "skimpy" just as aroused does for "nude" clothing. Also loading a skimpy list from files in a certain directory would allow everyone to contribute to the skimpy armor list and share the work.

 

Finally some more rationales for the laws.

 

• Gang colors: There have been incidents where supporters for either side of warring factions have displayed their affiliation with emblems or just colors on their clothing, leading to friction and fights. After more moderate measures have failed to preserve the peace, the option for clothing has been revoked completely so there is no more room for loopholes. Could potentially be female only as the males just tend to fight rather than making more subtle statements, and fighting already has its own criminal penalties.
• Xenophoboia: the hold simply wants to visually segregate its citizens from the "outsiders". Unfortunately whoever was put in charge of the method was a total perv.
• War of the sexes: Much like gang colors, but the split between factions happens to correlate strongly with sex. One sex comes out on top, and intends to make sure the other sex learns its place in the scheme of things. May explain Slaverun, perhaps the women staged a sex boycott, and rather than give in the men decided they didn't really care for equality after all and enforced their own solution.

 

 

[xboronx]

Oh my, such a good idea

 

If possible i wouldn't restrict the law to a single city but make different laws for some cities.

 

I would suggest the following nudity levels:

 

-No arms allowed

-only underwear allowed

-completely nude

-also arms bound and gagged

 

Reasoning would be escalating paranoia. The fourth one, bondage, is to avoid Thuums and Magic usage.

 

There are lots of sources justifying paranoia in the Skyrim world:

-If the player tries to restore the thieves guild to its former glory, this would justify at least the only underwear allowed law, but better full nudity law, then it would be very difficult for thieves to hide their tools and loot.

-If the player tries to restore the dark brotherhood this would justify the hardest nudity law with bondage involved, because otherwise those assasins could kill with their bare hands, magic or shouts.

-The civil war also can justify any kind of nudity law.

 

So these realistic threats would be the logical start for the nudity laws which would be for all non-citizens in case of the thieves/brotherhood and for all potential enemies in case of civil war, so either all nords or everybody else.

 

But this is only the start of course, and once the laws are accepted somebody will try to abuse them to his advantage. I'd suggest Jarl Siddgeir as evil mastermind behind .

So eventually it will shift to become more and more hostile towards women.

 

[pinky6225]

 

only thing that bugged me about slaverun was the fact that you was told to be nude yet the games basic talk kept happening about put some dam clothes on XD if you could nail that to remove that bloody comment it would be helpfull to streakers

I know exactly what to mod to replace the "naked" comments, in a nudity required environment in fact I want the comments to continue but to be about tits, ass, pussy, sex and for the guys their dick. At some point I'll also need some help coming up with the comments for each of the voice types (unvoiced but the personality is attached to the voice so...) but first we need some why we are doing this reasons.

 

 

How would that work with mods that have quests that have greeting events? thinking of SD+ and the spriggan quest for example

 

[leftwr65]

  I would think that states of dress would be used to enforce the distinction between slave and citizen.

  Those wearing a certain item (such as the DD slave collar) would trigger warnings and bounties if their clothing didn't match what was acceptable

  The rationale for it could be that with all the chaos gripping Skyrim, citizens are becoming increasingly worried about the possibility of a slave revolt. The increasingly harsh laws are to keep slaves more subservient and vulnerable

  Thats how I RP it in my game at least

[afa]

There's a clothing evaluation mod that let user tag different clothing. But hardly any mod uses it.

That should allow tagging of what is skimpy, exposed, underwear, etc.

 

But like many people said, the gender specific law would be slightly difficult to set up a reason, but I find the "skimpy" reason even harder, why skimpy? what's the real difference and reason where skimpy is fine but non skimpy isn't. The underwear approach seems easier to reason out since that actually serve the purpose of people can see if the person is technically hiding anything, but that sort of relies on user having underwear mods install...or not since user can technically tag anything, but we'll need NPCs in underwear.

 

Citizen vs non citizen works, but how often do we see non citizen NPCs in a town? I guess the dark elves in Windhelm works. This needs other mods to provide non vanilla NPCs.

[Illuminati]

There's already a framework that would make a mod like this possible. But no one uses it for some reason!

 

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/16048-wip-sim-clothing-evaluation/?hl=%2Bclothing+%2Bevaluation

[WaxenFigure]

There's already a framework that would make a mod like this possible. But no one uses it for some reason!

 

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/16048-wip-sim-clothing-evaluation/?hl=%2Bclothing+%2Bevaluation

 

That only works for 31 items.  It also was never completed.  That is why no one  uses it. 

 

Because you can replace the default armors with skimpier versions for one sex or even one race and not the other(s) you have to have separate skimpy values for each sex and race and because each player can install different mods each player would have to evaluate every piece of armor.  Too tedious to expect people to do.  That whole concepts fails because such a rating is not built into each NIF file from the start.

 

Not trying to be negative here but some ideas sound really cool until reality hits them hard in the gonads.  Actually why I asked for ideas here, some of the suggestions won't work but would be really cool if they did. 

 

I'll give one hint about what my own idea on how to justify this nudity thing to see what additional thought it brings forth:  Potema is raised and takes charge but she isn't sane after being dead for so long.

[afa]

Oh man you are going to make changes to Solitude?!

[Vithiss]

So many good ideas already.

 

Anyway. Every hold is short on guards because of the civil war, so "dress codes" would make sense as a way to ease the burden of the guards who remain.

 

Ideally (ie, the most complicated) there could be some variation hold to hold but it would make sense if all of them had "no equipped armor or weapons" rules. Though, ideally, some citizens at least would be able to use their vanilla weapons in the event  of vampire attacks, etc.

 

Ideally, the resident-outsider categories could be more subtle, perhaps a rank system to apply to npcs that would work something like:

 

 

Residents:

1-Resident Foreigner

2-Resident

3-Property Owner

4-Priviledged

Others:

1-Slave

2-Alien

3-Traveler

4-Merchant

 

 

So, for example:

 

 

Adrienne Avanici gets to wear clothes because of her father's influence, but would have to strip like everybody else if she took the sword herself.
People who wear Fine Clothes around town would get to keep clothes.
But in Windhelm, say, Dunmer can only wear -any- clothes at all if they work for Nords.
The Mara clergy are allowed to wear some minimal clothes in Riften, but the Talos clergy get full robes.
Meanwhile, Argonians aren't allowed clothes at all.
that sort of stuff

 

 

For people who use Frostfall or the like it might also be handy if the hold mages have enchanted a crate or two of something like collars (visible with any but full clothing/armor) that re-state the individual's status and also clearly distinguishes from someone who, for whatever reasons, might be choosing to wear less than allowed.

 

Once you allow something like that, the advantages of clothing restrictions can seem more compelling.

Clothing can be enchanted, and guards can't be expected to be able to discern it, so clothing restrictions for all but the most trusted, are like armor restrictions, they make life easier for the guards.

The guards will know everyone with enough influence to be fully dressed, beyond that, minimal clothing makes "malcontents" more obvious to them.

 

There could be varying numbers of people at all the levels of dress, based on local attitudes and populations, depending on how many people you want to have naked.

 

One, rather half-baked, possible reason to have fewer males in minimal or no clothes could be a law/tradition that all able males will fight to defend the hold from malefactors (thieves, assassins, vampires) at need and assist the guards, so they are allowed the enchanted clothes option (always in theory of course, no need to actually implement this mechanically). While females may choose to fight too, they are not under the same compulsion, so fewer clothes for them.

 

 

[Imatterial]

If you wanted to tie it to the civil war, you could have enforced nudity as a clause in the White Gold Concordat, so all Imperial supporting holds have it as law that non-altmer women can't wear clothes and likewise, pro-Stormcloak holds won't let non-Nord women wear clothes in retaliation (maybe to try and force them to leave Skyrim - if you've got no innate frost resistance OR clothes, you might decide somewhere warmer is preferable).

 

I know that doesn't really provide Skyrim-wide nudity, but might make the civil war choices interesting depending on your race, are you a Nord who wants the Imperials to win or a Dunmer that supports the Stormcloaks? Hope you enjoy (rigorously enforced) exhibitionism then!

 

Because of how politically decentralised Skyrim is, with multiple holds having their own legal jurisdictions AND the civil war creating an idealogical divide, I'm not sure how I'd go about justifying a 'worldwide female-nudity law' without either throwing my hands in the air and declaring nudism is an ancient and beloved Nord tradition, enforced in all the holds regardless of their political leanings or just saying that all of Tamriel is now Gor and screw being lore-friendly. The Potema ideas a good one, she might see other women (such as the Dragonborn) as a threat to her, so wants their public image undermined, however, wouldn't this require a fairly large change to justify, since you'd either need to just hand wave the fact that none of the other NPCs acknowledge that she's the boss, and continue talking about their support for either Ulfric or Elisif, or you'd have to change the ending of her quest, maybe eliminate the civil war questline entirely, including mentions of it and replace all the hold guards with her undead/minions.

 

Regardless, it would be quite cool if there was some punishment besides being arrested, which is handled brilliantly if you've got Prison Overhaul, but can get a bit repetitive, maybe the guards strip you and put you in one of ZAZ's hanging cages to laugh at, or you have to perform some sort of "public service" around the town/hold before they allow you your items back. Just a thought.

[idonotlikeusernames]

While I wouldn't want to see this implemented in the vanilla Skyrim cities, a system like this could be perfect for some custom designed places like the slavetown mod under development where you might have to earn the privilege to wear anything at all. In that mod the PC currently starts out naked while most other slaves wear rags and some wear simple armor but none of them have any footwear Could also work for any of the Elsweyr or custom tropical island mods.

Depending on how customizable (via MCM) this system will be, I could see it have some use not for enforced nudity but a kind of sumptuary law system, where only nobles get to wear finery and I'd personally set it up so you'd have to be a Thane to wear heavy armour and equip any weapons within city limits (though due to gameplay possibly only for the walled cities with their own wordspace).

[sen4mi]

In my current game, I am bemused by my character being a mass murderer in a society where murder is expected but sex is only consensual. I think I'll start another one and try a different character concept. (When I want consensual sex, I think I'd prefer to stick with real life.)

 

I think I want a game where most gear is vanilla, where highly magical gear needs to be skimpy, where outsiders in "friendly" territory have a significant rape or harrassment risk (having armor confiscated or whatever) but only when the locals can muster up a convincing overwhelming force. Also, I want quests which all have elements of coercing the character into escalating levels of "compromising" situations.

 

Or maybe I just like installing lots of mods and starting over again?

 

 

[Kawauso]

Well, in Riften, getting caught stealing without guild sanction could be penalized by forcing you to go nakie with the justification that without clothes you cant steal anything. You could even have lady blackbriar set you up to get caught because you have annoyed her.

Since Prison Overhaul I dreamed about getting framed and sent to jail even if innocent.

 

 

only thing that bugged me about slaverun was the fact that you was told to be nude yet the games basic talk kept happening about put some dam clothes on XD if you could nail that to remove that bloody comment it would be helpfull to streakers 

 

There's a mod on the nexus that replaces nude comments with "funny" comments (compliments on you looking good actually). I can't remember the name though.

[Guest Wizard]

there is a nice mod i use: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/12082-immersion-auto-equip-swimsuits-and-towngear/

 

A new one can be done, so it determines what set of items to use in town/location for example.

Abcence of chest armor/clothing means patrial nudity and is considered as tresspassing.

Mod also can determine some items as "offensive" and they could lead to tresspassing if you wear 75% of offensive items.

A nice thing to do is add support to SL Arousal, so offensive items can increase arousal levels.

Full nudity is a crime and will be pursued immediately.

This mod could also add immersion, so some clothing is unwelcome. Vampire Dress? Necromancer Robes? You'd better change that before entering Whiterun.

[afa]

That's the complete opposite of what we are trying to here.

 

Although a total reversal of scenario could be interesting if different Holds has their own law, and there could be some quest or event that can get the PC in trouble.