Race menu with ECE interface?

[LEDAHGRIM]

Hello, Just recently I discovered a thread where people share their ECE presets to be loaded via

ECE itself, So my problem is that I have "race menu" & "ECE" installed but I can't access the "ECE"

interface to load the shared presets on that thread.

 

If I uninstall race menu I get an error where "ECE" can't load the face morphs, and If I install race

menu again I can't acess "ECE"...

 

I have heard some people have both installed but still are able to use the "ECE" interface, So my

question is how do you do that? Load order below or above "ECE's" esps doesn't seem to do the trick...

[blabba]

It should be noted that ECE and racemenu were never supposed to be used together.

And by 'trying' to use them both at the same time can lead to weird results that may or may not work.

 

Anyway here's a short guide on how to use them both:

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/26397-q-ece-racemenu/

 

Please note that in ECE if you use the ygnord race and then switch to RM you might get some weird issues I think.

[LEDAHGRIM]

Thanks, I'll check out the guide!

[Emberheart]

They always conflict to some extent. Perhaps it's time a big, angry, chinese pirate swoops by, who will then cannibalize both tools to create a newer, greater tool with little consideration for either author's opinion on the matter. One which combines the features of both tools in one. The hinderance of having two different mediums that do not entirely overlap can be a pain. It's almost like the ages old UNP/CBBE conflict where one body is preferred over the other, but where the armours matching that body are buggy when converted.

[bob11]

Isn't Racemenu assimilating ECE features slowly anyway?  I mean, I prefer ECE because I prefer its face geometry take to Racemenu's, but Racemenu apparently has recently incorporated zoom and light functionality so maybe EVENTUALLY it'll get there.  Of course, then ECE also has straight Vertex editing now so...  Racemenu's got a better interface though, true but they are incompatible.  The best you could do is run ECE on top of Racemenu (at least you could some time ago) but that's suboptimal.

[gvman3670]

I believe the newest RM is entirely incompatible with ECE.

[blabba]

RM does everything ECE does, except better.

 

Well besides the vertex editor, which expired is still working on. He's making it a sculpting sort of in-game tool where you have brushes to deform the mesh.

Probably a better way of handling it.

 

I have no idea why people think ECE has better facial geometry, RM uses the same morphs in a non-destructive way. (You start with ugly vanilla, but then can use sliders to morph to ECE or RAN's Headmesh variants)

 

Anyway, I'll stop ranting about this.

Sometime ignorance is bliss.

[bob11]

RM does everything ECE does, except better.

 

Well besides the vertex editor, which expired is still working on. He's making it a sculpting sort of in-game tool where you have brushes to deform the mesh.

Probably a better way of handling it.

 

I have no idea why people think ECE has better facial geometry, RM uses the same morphs in a non-destructive way. (You start with ugly vanilla, but then can use sliders to morph to ECE or RAN's Headmesh variants)

 

Anyway, I'll stop ranting about this.

Sometime ignorance is bliss.

 

Eh, no, it's not the same.  It's pretty obvious to anyone who's used both.  I'm not sure if Racemenu 2.7 improved but I wasn't getting the results I wanted with Racemenu even with ECE morphs or whatever extra morphs installed.  My take is that ECE morphs weren't implemented well into Racemenu, otherwise you should be able to get 100% identical results.  You don't, at least I could immediately tell when switching back and forth when trying the earlier Racemenu 2 builds.  Not that the result isn't good, it just isn't as good as what I got with ECE, which is obviously the reason why a number of us prefer ECE, it produces more youthful and prettier characters.

 

And no, before Racemenu 2.7, Racemenu had very limited zoom functionality and just an on/off light switch, so it wasn't even doing that better.  The only thing I can agree that was always superior in Racemenu is its UI.

[blabba]

 

Eh, no, it's not the same.  It's pretty obvious to anyone who's used both.  I'm not sure if Racemenu 2.7 improved but I wasn't getting the results I wanted with Racemenu even with ECE morphs or whatever extra morphs installed.  My take is that ECE morphs weren't implemented well into Racemenu, otherwise you should be able to get 100% identical results.  You don't, at least I could immediately tell when switching back and forth when trying the earlier Racemenu 2 builds.  Not that the result isn't good, it just isn't as good as what I got with ECE, which is obviously the reason why a number of us prefer ECE, it produces more youthful and prettier characters.

 

And no, before Racemenu 2.7, Racemenu had very limited zoom functionality and just an on/off light switch, so it wasn't even doing that better.  The only thing I can agree that was always superior in Racemenu is its UI.

 

 

The newest version by now should have all those grievances fixed.

 

ECE morphs were 100% copied over into RM (you can check the tri files yourself)

The reason why they 'looked different' was because ECE head was pre-morphed and you were just adding morphs on top of a pre-morphed head.

 

I believe expired stated he added the 'pre-morph' head variants like RAN's and ECE as a new slider morph so people can do that stuff now.

[bob11]

 

 

Eh, no, it's not the same.  It's pretty obvious to anyone who's used both.  I'm not sure if Racemenu 2.7 improved but I wasn't getting the results I wanted with Racemenu even with ECE morphs or whatever extra morphs installed.  My take is that ECE morphs weren't implemented well into Racemenu, otherwise you should be able to get 100% identical results.  You don't, at least I could immediately tell when switching back and forth when trying the earlier Racemenu 2 builds.  Not that the result isn't good, it just isn't as good as what I got with ECE, which is obviously the reason why a number of us prefer ECE, it produces more youthful and prettier characters.

 

And no, before Racemenu 2.7, Racemenu had very limited zoom functionality and just an on/off light switch, so it wasn't even doing that better.  The only thing I can agree that was always superior in Racemenu is its UI.

 

 

The newest version by now should have all those grievances fixed.

 

ECE morphs were 100% copied over into RM (you can check the tri files yourself)

The reason why they 'looked different' was because ECE head was pre-morphed and you were just adding morphs on top of a pre-morphed head.

 

I believe expired stated he added the 'pre-morph' head variants like RAN's and ECE as a new slider morph so people can do that stuff now.

 

 

That's in the new 2.7 version? I haven't tried that yet, not sure I want to remake all 3 characters I'm using (again), it is a bit of a pain.  I also don't remember whether anything of what I use has ECE dependencies.

 

O_o The pre-morph head is a slider? Somehow that doesn't sound like it'll work that well...

[gvman3670]

RM does everything ECE does, except better.

 

Well besides the vertex editor, which expired is still working on. He's making it a sculpting sort of in-game tool where you have brushes to deform the mesh.

Probably a better way of handling it.

 

I have no idea why people think ECE has better facial geometry, RM uses the same morphs in a non-destructive way. (You start with ugly vanilla, but then can use sliders to morph to ECE or RAN's Headmesh variants)

 

Anyway, I'll stop ranting about this.

Sometime ignorance is bliss.

 

No, it's really not the same. The end results speak for themselves. And while I kind of prefer the RM interface, ECE is still quicker, easier to use and far less confusing. It's also less of a resource hog and tends to lag a lot less. The only advantage RM has, literally the ONLY one, is the overlay system. That's it. If someone incorporated that into ECE there would be no reason whatsoever to ever download Race Menu. Well, the new camera system in RM is pretty cool.

 

This is coming from someone who's used both and has both installed into different MO profiles right now. But I did install a different headmesh to get decent results with RM.

[Expired6978]

If someone incorporated that into ECE there would be no reason whatsoever to ever download Race Menu. Well, the new camera system in RM is pretty cool.

This is coming from someone who's used both and has both installed into different MO profiles right now. But I did install a different headmesh to get decent results with RM.

You're welcome to try. NiOverride is an API, it was designed so that it can be used by anyone, you can use overlays without RaceMenu, but without RaceMenu there is no interface to display it.

 

Admittedly there is a very slight difference between RaceMenu and the ECE morphs, this is due to how ECE applies the initial morphs. There are a few morphs labeled as "base" morphs, these morphs essentially OVERWRITE the existing morphs (i.e. all of the difference data is completely overwritten), they are not additive morphs. CharGen doesn't support overwriting morphs because it's nonsense, there's no reason to overwrite the entire morph when you can just apply additions/subtractions. These base morphs are essentially ignored by CharGen because of their nature. However, it's not impossible to just load the base head, apply the base morphs, then export the head and take the differences from the vanilla head then make a slider out of them. All morphs are literal copies of the ECE morphs, they don't look or apply any differently, if you still can't get quite the same as ECE this is because of the missing base morphs.

 

I've probably explained in another thread the exact differences between CharGen and ECE. There's very good reasons why I chose to write CharGen and provide no further support for ECE. People can wish and hope all they want, I'm not going to integrate anything other than ECE morphs into RaceMenu, this would undermine the entire purpose of CharGen.

 

As for vertex editing, as blabba pointed out, I'm not going for a single-vertex UV based edit, I'm going for a sculpting approach:

Wireframe

Textured

If I wanted the single vertex, UV-only display approach I would've been done within a couple days.

[dje34]

There will always be a fight between ECE fans and RM fans, what I'd like to see is a mod merging both best features to get the ultimate character creation mod, just like you do with CITRUS for body replacers, blabba !

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

RM does everything ECE does, except better.

 

Well besides the vertex editor, which expired is still working on. He's making it a sculpting sort of in-game tool where you have brushes to deform the mesh.

Probably a better way of handling it.

 

I have no idea why people think ECE has better facial geometry, RM uses the same morphs in a non-destructive way. (You start with ugly vanilla, but then can use sliders to morph to ECE or RAN's Headmesh variants)

 

Anyway, I'll stop ranting about this.

Sometime ignorance is bliss.

 

Hell. Yes.

[blabba]

There will always be a fight between ECE fans and RM fans, what I'd like to see is a mod merging both best features to get the ultimate character creation mod, just like you do with CITRUS for body replacers, blabba !

 

Citrus is a lot like RM actually...

 

Expired has incorporated features from RM and even improved upon them all the while from user feedback and suggestions.

He's basically almost incorporated all the features of ECE in a much better fashion (you can easily compare his code to ECE)

 

I've used ECE, it's almost definitely not as performance friendly nor as 'clean' a mod as many of you may think.

ECE was a good mod and the authors who made all the extra facial morphs should be greatly commended, but it's just not up to par with RM anymore.

 

So in summary:

 

RM -> Modular and extensible, others can use the frameworks Expired has provided to make sliders and do other amazing things (See Groovtama's post about how he can dynamically add skeleton nodes so that HDT stuff works on NPC's)

 

RM -> Non-destructive morphs, the morphs don't overwrite data, retaining the true vanilla face. Thus in theory it's actually MORE customizable than ECE and allows you to 'revert' your work.

 

ECE -> Rigid, not updated to stay compatible with current mods and performance updates.

 

Citrus -> Modular and extensible, you can use the base body and sculpt it to many differing shapes and add new morphs if you so wish.

Citrus -> Non-destructive morphs, sliders are simple additive or subtractive morphs, you can revert or save changes via presets.

 

Other Body Mods -> Rigid, Not as flexible or freely transformable. As soon as they are published it's set in stone and you have a low chance of changing the mod author's mind.

 

The thing is, Expired values your guys' input and ideas. If it's something definitive that you can define that ECE has an edge over on RM, he's usually pretty willing to listen and see if he can't do something similar for RM. If it's something he can't do/won't do it's for a good reason that he can explain (which he has).

 

Things like 'But it's not the same' or vague things like 'ECE has features over RM' or it 'Looks better' do not help.

 

The same would go for CITRUS, if someone comes up and tells me your mod's not good cuz it's missing things. But then fails to explain what the 'things' are. Or I've told them reasons as to why I cannot do those 'things' then progress ain't going to be made.

[Expired6978]

Things like 'But it's not the same' or vague things like 'ECE has features over RM' or it 'Looks better' do not help.

This; if it's not the same please point out what you think is missing or what you think would look better. I can't read anyone's mind.

[bob11]

 

Things like 'But it's not the same' or vague things like 'ECE has features over RM' or it 'Looks better' do not help.

This; if it's not the same please point out what you think is missing or what you think would look better. I can't read anyone's mind.

 

 

Didn't you answer that on your own though?  You said ECE used a different base morph, therefore it ends up with different results and you're unwilling to incorporate that.  Some of us find ECE's results better because of that so we can't switch.  The only real issue ECE has is that the author takes too much time updating it, if at all.  Obviously if it ends up actually breaking a more important mod for me,  I'd have to switch, but as it is, I see little reason besides trading a better result for a better UI.  I have no loyalty to either, so if Racemenu eventually ends up producing at least comparable results, yay.  As it is, ECE gets it better for my taste, and if the pre-morph mesh is the cause, all the more power to that.

 

And since you're around and we're already slightly off-topic, I hope EFF gets an update soon .