[Lorefriendly mod idea] Orc Strongholds.

[BurnyD]

I actually basically made this mod as an exercise in learning how to make mods (up to the point of brawling and killing an Orc chief and taking ownership of his stuff), but I didn't care enough to polish it up and ended up deleting it. But if someone is working on it I would gladly share the ideas I came up with in the process.

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

Since I kill the chief and the other males in strongholds  and take the women almost every game to begin with, a mod to make it "official" would be nice.

[Alploochra]

Okay then I think we need to keep in touch people.

[Nickolos1818]

So, erm.....I want this!

[Guest]

keep up the good work because this is a good one.

[Samuhell666]

I really like this idea

 

I really hope this gets made

[Luminar]

 

It's all about supply and demand. Not many folk really *want* to sex up Orc women it seems.

 

And it's a damn shame, too. I do love me some Orc ladies. (Strength is sexy, mmkay)

 

On another topic: If there's only ever one male in a stronghold that's allowed to breed, wouldn't that mean that all the children that are born are at least half-siblings? (Especially if that male remains chief until his children are adults and one of them kills him.)

And it doesn't seem like it's customary for them to exchange their people, what with the whole 'defend your stronghold to the death' thing.

...either they're all related to each other or I missed something here.

 

Daughters get married off to other clans, sons often go off to join the Imperial Legion, most likely settling in with the Orc populations in cities like Cheydinhal or going to Orsinium after military service.

 

That's one of the things that they have yet to deal with in the official lore. Presumably they would say that girl children are traded between holds since they've already said that sons should take out their father when he grows weak or they could be somewhat inbred which would help explain the unhealthy pallor of their skin and how they developed the ridiculous overbite vs. their cousin races.

Orc appearances were caused by the transformation of their patron god Trinimac into Malacath. Most legends portray Trinimac as being devoured by Boethiah for his attempts at dissuading the Velothi exodites (who would become the Chimer, who would become the ashen-skinned Dunmer) from leaving the Aldmer during the Merethic Era. Malacath himself implies in Lord of Souls that his transfiguration is a bit more complex than most mortal legends would suggest.

[Alploochra]

 

 

Daughters get married off to other clans, sons often go off to join the Imperial Legion, most likely settling in with the Orc populations in cities like Cheydinhal or going to Orsinium after military service.

There's still the fact that it's one of the sons that becomes the new chief. His mother and aunts don't move out. This part has never been cleared.
There's not so much orc legionnaires in Skyrim time, because Orsinium was destroyed again without imperial help and is now a rogue nation in exile on occupied land, and they probably join a lot the bandits that are coming out from the woodworks.
There's also the feeling that orc girls seem to tend a lot to flee their home, that's never exactly explained why either apart the "arranged marriage" thing that is the case for all the races anyway and the Orsinium Orcs are the more traditionnalists of them all and would abide to it (all orcs are not of orsinian culture, as seen in TESO, but the Strongholds ones are). There may be squickier motivations in their escapes.

As for the genetic observations, don't look too much at them, there's no biological evolution or strict genetics at work on Nirn as much as we can see; even progress is in stasis. In fact time didn't flow to begin with before Akatosh did stuff, and stopped working for a long period of time too after.
And the Daedra dedicated to natural laws is the weakest of them all.


As you say about Trinimac - that's a metaphor even by Malacath's own words. There's psychoactivity at work on Nirn, beliefs become things, gods change according to believers' concepts, du to the Earthbones.
There's also the fact that some of Malacath avatars seem older than the Trinimac schism (Mauloch perhaps, Orkney probably).

[Luminar]

There's also the fact that some of Malacath avatars seem older than the Trinimac schism (Mauloch perhaps, Orkney probably).

Orkey is just Arkay. That the ancient nords associated the life and death god with the adversarial orcs is probably a reflection of their strong opposition to the Akatosh aligned Aedra and the Elven ancestor spirits, and their preference for Shor-aligned deities like Kyne.

[Alploochra]

 

 

Orkey is just Arkay. That the ancient nords associated the life and death god with the adversarial orcs is probably a reflection of their strong opposition to the Akatosh aligned Aedra and the Elven ancestor spirits, and their preference for Shor-aligned deities like Kyne.

There's isn't a "Shor aligned" and an "Akatosh aligned" pantheon, they are the same.
Kyne and Kynareth are corresponding, and Shor was in the imperial pantheon under the name Shezarr and got expelled when there became a need to appease the mixed population of the first Empire. Akatosh had also become the main figure of the refounded pantheon (being both a man and mer deity, while Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr was only a human one) and Alessia gained the Covenant with him.
As Shor was an afterlife god (and still is), there was no need for the Arkay figure in the Nordic pantheon. Arkay became a Divine when Shezarr was reformed, it's even in his creation myth.

There's also the fact that it is said in one of the only Orkey source that his people are the Orcs and another just says it's Malacath.
You can also see that no Aedra has ever an Adversary role in any tamrielic religion; for cosmological reasons, they can't, they aren't sentient and are shaped by the beliefs of the mortals of Nirn (that inconsciously don't want theological Adversaries, and in any way don't need them, they already have the Daedras who are proactive.).
There never was in any game or in any "historical" ingame book a direct intervention of an Aedra. That's the meaning of the "were infused/tied with the earth" thing, and of the "man and beastfolk deities aren't angry about Lorkhan's trickery" thing, because well, they didn't have a spirit life before Creation, so they don't have bad blood about it, and so neither their deities.
 

[Luminar]

 

Orkey is just Arkay. That the ancient nords associated the life and death god with the adversarial orcs is probably a reflection of their strong opposition to the Akatosh aligned Aedra and the Elven ancestor spirits, and their preference for Shor-aligned deities like Kyne.

There's isn't a "Shor aligned" and an "Akatosh aligned" pantheon, they are the same.

Kyne and Kynareth are corresponding, and Shor was in the imperial pantheon under the name Shezarr and got expelled when there became a need to appease the mixed population of the first Empire. Akatosh had also become the main figure of the refounded pantheon (being both a man and mer deity, while Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr was only a human one) and Alessia gained the Covenant with him.

As Shor was an afterlife god (and still is), there was no need for the Arkay figure in the Nordic pantheon. Arkay became a Divine when Shezarr was reformed, it's even in his creation myth.

 

I am aware that the different pantheons feature different names for the same gods. I used akatosh and shor aligned to refer to the dispositions that individual gods are depicted as having in mortal belief. That certain gods are typically presented as in conflict is not a contradiction of the cross-pantheon appearances of deities . Both nordic and altmeri myths depict Lorkhan and the time dragon as literally waging war upon each other, with certain gods being traditionally associated with one side of that conflict or the other. Kynareth is the first to agree with Lorkhan's plan, Kyne is the war-wife of Shor. Stendarr is the apologist of men and Stuhn is the shield-Thane of shor. Tsun died defending Shor, and Zeht betrayed Ruptga (and likely sided with Sep). There is a very clear notion for both the nords (and men more generally) and the elves of Divine conflict with the space and time gods taking center stage and other gods "picking sides." It also explains why gods like Kynareth don't appear at all in elven pantheons, instead being replaced by Y'ffre. While it is true that the imperial religion structures itself around notions of divine harmony, this can't be used to discount the themes of divine conflict which center the beliefs of those north and south of Cyrodiil. But if we're really going to talk gods, then we might also point out that Lorkhan and Akatosh aren't actually separate beings, and that it is simply Akatosh's delusion that there exists a space god which is not him, just as Anu is deluded in "thinking" that there is a Padomay.

 

As for the covenant, Alessia may very well have forged it with Pelinal (who shared madness with Aka and heartlessness with Lorkhan), if The Song of Pelinal is any indication.

 

When it comes to Orkey specifically, it is worth noting that the traditional nord pantheon features both Mauloch and Orkey, and that Varieties of Faith identifies Orkey as a merethic era loan-god of the Nords. Shor may be an afterlife god for the Nords, but Shor is much more like Osiris in that he died and passed into the underworld, which he began to rule after finding residence within. Orkey, however, is attributed specifically with the shortening of lifespans and aging, that is, an aspect of the cycle of life and death. Given that he's described as being a loan-god from the aldmeri pantheon, that only reinforces the Arkay connection, as the elves have an explicit conception of Arkay. Orkey's role in myth as forcibly aging the Nords then makes sense as a nordic interpretation of a foreign life and death god, whose sphere is used to harm the cause of men. His association with orcs in nordic myths is more along the lines of "we beat orkey, and the orcs got screwed instead," and may be an indication that pre-transfiguration Orsimer were responsible for exporting the Arkay cult to mannish populations (or just an indication of nordic hatred for orcs). Besides, if we consider there spheres for a moment, what does Malacath, god of pariahs and outcasts, have to do with Orkey, a god who uses foul magic to screw with people's lifespan and ages?

 

As for Arkay becoming a god, though some myths describe Arkay as being mortal before becoming a god, I think the redguard Tu'whacca is probably the more accurate presentation of the metaphysics of Arkay's origin. Tu'whacca, god of nobody really cares, becomes god of souls once a notion of death becomes relevant. Arkay is an irrelevant god of nothing in a world of only Et'Ada, but he is something in a world of mortals.

 

You can also see that no Aedra has ever an Adversary role in any tamrielic religion; for cosmological reasons, they can't, they aren't sentient and are shaped by the beliefs of the mortals of Nirn (that inconsciously don't want theological Adversaries, and in any way don't need them, they already have the Daedras who are proactive.).

There never was in any game or in any "historical" ingame book a direct intervention of an Aedra. That's the meaning of the "were infused/tied with the earth" thing, and of the "man and beastfolk deities aren't angry about Lorkhan's trickery" thing, because well, they didn't have a spirit life before Creation, so they don't have bad blood about it, and so neither their deities.

We met avatars of the nine divines in Morrowind, got help from Talos in Oblivion, and picked a fight with Tsun in Skyrim. We've directly interacted with Aedra. That's certainly an intervention of some sort.

 

As for adversarial roles, when elven myth literally depicts Auri-el and Trinimac ripping out the heart of Lorkhan, I think it can be safely argued that there exists a notion of an adversarial Aedra. For the Elves it is Lorkhan, for the ancient nords it was the time dragon (who they conflated with Alduin).

[Alploochra]

 

 

As for the covenant, Alessia may very well have forged it with Pelinal (who shared madness with Aka and heartlessness with Lorkhan), if The Song of Pelinal is any indication.

Except Covenant wielders are hereditary dragonborns, and Martin using the power of the Covenant made him an avatar of Akatosh.
Pelinal is strongly aligned with Shor in his actions, and no version of Shor is ever linked to the Imperial Convenant in any source.

 

I used akatosh and shor aligned to refer to the dispositions that individual gods are depicted as having in mortal belief.

Yes, but the more eager Divine (not the first) to follow Lorkhan's plan was Akatosh, he even gave himself to Nirn so that time passes. And he is Auri-El, as human scholars all point out.

 

Varieties of Faith identifies Orkey as a merethic era loan-god of the Nords

Which of course he would be being a mer deity. Said mer being known to sometimes worship daedras, and also valid if he's Trinimac, who's a mer demigod.
Anyway all the daedras are loan-gods. They exists. They are not made up by religions. So they are necessarily loaned.

 

Orkey, however, is attributed specifically with the shortening of lifespans and aging, that is, an aspect of the cycle of life and death.

Yes, he's an opposite force. That's totally not the purpose of Arkay.
Arkay protects the health of the living and the souls of the dead.

 

Given that he's described as being a loan-god from the aldmeri pantheon, that only reinforces the Arkay connection, as the elves have an explicit conception of Arkay.

No, they have no conception of Arkay, neither the Altmer nor the Ayleid. And the Dunmer are farther.
Bosmeri have Arkay on the other hand, as is. And a crapload of gods with no connection to anyone else that makes their pantheon unreliable for comparative study.

 

Besides, if we consider there spheres for a moment, what does Malacath, god of pariahs and outcasts, have to do with Orkey, a god who uses foul magic to screw with people's lifespan and ages?

He's only Malacath after the Orsimer Curse of a portion of the Chimer.
He has nothing to do with defending outcasts and pariahs before, the whole point ot the metaphor is that he became one and thus decided to protect them.
His other avatars have nothing to do with protecting the outcast (Orkey who is a trickster malevolent god, Mauloch who is the god of revenge,...)
You're also here forgetting that Malacath's full title also name him the Bloody Curse. He is a god of foul magic that screws people.
And he is also the keeper of Sworn Oaths, that has nothing to do with neither outcasts nor (barely) with curses and is another avatar's portfolio remnant.

 

There is a very clear notion for both the nords (and men more generally) and the elves of Divine conflict with the space and time gods taking center stage and other gods "picking sides." It also explains why gods like Kynareth don't appear at all in elven pantheons, instead being replaced by Y'ffre. While it is true that the imperial religion structures itself around notions of divine harmony, this can't be used to discount the themes of divine conflict which center the beliefs of those north and south of Cyrodiil. But if we're really going to talk gods, then we might also point out that Lorkhan and Akatosh aren't actually separate beings, and that it is simply Akatosh's delusion that there exists a space god which is not him, just as Anu is deluded in "thinking" that there is a Padomay.

The whole point of the Imperial Pantheon is that there isn't a divine conflict. You can't take gods from it and side them. That' not how it works.
There were opposing gods, yes. And that's old stuff, given the only one on the side of mankind only (Lorkhan) has been killed, and the reason he's been kicked out.

The example of Y'ffre is a wrong one - he's not an opposing god to Kynareth, they are actually aspects of the same thing. That's the main reason they are not described battling each other (at least i've never found a source about them fighting). They are even enough appart that two cultures (bretons and khajiits) have both Kynareth and Y'ffre in their religion. As in, being in the same theological side.
The main feature of Y'ffre is that it's the first god to go Earth Bone. Is that what the mer aedras mad at Lorkhan would do ?

 

As for Arkay becoming a god, though some myths describe Arkay as being mortal before becoming a god, I think the redguard Tu'whacca is probably the more accurate presentation of the metaphysics of Arkay's origin. Tu'whacca, god of nobody really cares, becomes god of souls once a notion of death becomes relevant. Arkay is an irrelevant god of nothing in a world of only Et'Ada, but he is something in a world of mortals.

You're missign the point:
Arkay has no use because when the world was created, and the elven aedras saw they were now trapped, they killed him. He became "like Osiris" as you said. And thus directly the guardian of the dead.
So there was a god of the dead.
Shor lost this place for a big part of mankind when the Imperial pantheon was founded, so, there was no god left for the nedic dead. So Arkay "rose from the mortals" for the imperials (while nords kept Shor).
If you want to make logical links, the Okham's Razor's option is that Arkay would be a better offshoot of Lorkhan/Shor. Supported by the fact he is not in the altmer pantheon.
There's also the simple historical fact: Arkay doesn't exist before the founding of the Cyrodilic Pantheon. There's no cult of him before Alessia, and neither of his aspect of Tu'whacca, as Redguards only appear in history in the First Era.

We met avatars of the nine divines in Morrowind,

Source ? I don't remember speaking eye to eye with aedras but my memory may be blurry.

 

got help from Talos in Oblivion,

Who is NOT an aedra. It's the whole point about him.

 

and picked a fight with Tsun in Skyrim.

In Oblivion. In Sovngarde. Which in itself is both impossible (as aedras are trapped on Nirn, if they still are) and a belief construct (dead true nords do go in Valhalla, don't they ? So there must be a Tsun guarding the Whale Bridge).
And you may have seen while being there that there was no one in Shor's Throne.

 

We've directly interacted with Aedra. That's certainly an intervention of some sort.

I don't think so. In fact there's two main story points in Oblivion that are more than suspicious.
- Martin has to sacrifice himself (as dragonborn emperor) and destroy the Amulet of Kings to "summon Akatosh". Basically draining everything that is akatosh-y in imperial belief. Then he becomes a giant fierry dragon, then a statue.
- in Knight of the Nine you get armed by the Divines "themselves" to fight Umaril. I'm pretty sure you never speak to any Aedra in it - including Talos.

As for adversarial roles, when elven myth literally depicts Auri-el and Trinimac ripping out the heart of Lorkhan, I think it can be safely argued that there exists a notion of an adversarial Aedra. For the Elves it is Lorkhan, for the ancient nords it was the time dragon (who they conflated with Alduin).

As said before, that's one god. Not exactly pantheons clashing.
And nords aren't exactly hating elves because of that (they have a strong non-cosmical backstory for that).

Alduin being the "evil elven" aspect of Akatosh would be an actual good point I could abide to, evenmore as he's munching on nord souls in the nord afterlife created by Shor, and meant to destroy the world planned by Shor to make a new one, but there's some unanswered questions around the concept. For example, Nords do have Akatosh too.  And there's another culture (Redguards) that has both of them too (Ruptga and Satakal). And there's Alduin himself speaking to you in the game, and he's clearly saying he's not Akatosh. Or Auri-El.

What he may be is an independant aspect that doesn't know entirely he is born of the cosmogonical act of Lorkhan's slaying (being it real or not), or empowered by the act, or doesn't care, or a mix of that.
I'd actually like that. A sort of dragon demigod (he has some of the dragon vulnerabilities, and dragons are lesser aedras anyway, and he can be punched, but does not die like the others). He's clearly manifesting a lot more than the aedras and even the daedras. And without any believers left, even if the ancient nords may have made him this way because the thought of Alduin as Auri-El.
That's actually deliciously ironic and incredibly deep main-story-wise if you think of it: the murder of Lorkhan (which is a theological metaphor of elven treachery upon men) created Alduin; men created Talos, and his purpose is amongst others to slay dragons (look at his statue). The Thalmor want to take revenge on men because of the whole Lorkhan thing, and go back to the spirit world, and banned the worship of Talos, because they don't want a manmade god protecting the men like Lorkhan was. And so Alduin, who is the dark side of the beginning of times of Auri-El/Akatosh, could end the world.

 

[Luminar]

 

As for the covenant, Alessia may very well have forged it with Pelinal (who shared madness with Aka and heartlessness with Lorkhan), if The Song of Pelinal is any indication.

Except Covenant wielders are hereditary dragonborns, and Martin using the power of the Covenant made him an avatar of Akatosh.

Pelinal is strongly aligned with Shor in his actions, and no version of Shor is ever linked to the Imperial Convenant in any source.

 

Pelinal is linked with the Covenant in the last part of the Song of Pelinal, which describes Pelinal as being at Alessia's deathbed. (an odd description, seeing as by then Pelinal had been murdered)

 

 

 

I used akatosh and shor aligned to refer to the dispositions that individual gods are depicted as having in mortal belief.

Yes, but the more eager Divine (not the first) to follow Lorkhan's plan was Akatosh, he even gave himself to Nirn so that time passes. And he is Auri-El, as human scholars all point out.

 

And Auri-el is traditionally depicted as despising Lorkhan's trick and waging war in response. Remember, the elves view Lorkhan as a trickster who beguiled the Aedra, and the nords traditionally conflated Akatosh with the fearsome Alduin.

 

 

 

Varieties of Faith identifies Orkey as a merethic era loan-god of the Nords

Which of course he would be being a mer deity. Said mer being known to sometimes worship daedras, and also valid if he's Trinimac, who's a mer demigod.

Anyway all the daedras are loan-gods. They exists. They are not made up by religions. So they are necessarily loaned.

 

Only the Chimer/Dunmer made Daedra worship mainstream cultural practice, and Orsimer probably weren't orcs during the time of the Elder Wood. (Wherein Orkey's appearance in the nordic pantheon originates, as trinimac isn't transfigured until after the sundering of the continents)

 

 

Orkey, however, is attributed specifically with the shortening of lifespans and aging, that is, an aspect of the cycle of life and death.

Yes, he's an opposite force. That's totally not the purpose of Arkay.

Arkay protects the health of the living and the souls of the dead.

 

Is it really so hard to believe that the ancient nords could have conceived of Arkay as a villainous god? The nords paint time as the ultimate villain, a world destroying dragon who devours the souls of the dead, slays the living, and unmakes the world, only to repeat the cycle again, endlessly. Arkay, as god of the cycle of life and death, can easily be seen as endlessly forcing mortal birth and death, and thus being a villain of the same sort.

 

 

Given that he's described as being a loan-god from the aldmeri pantheon, that only reinforces the Arkay connection, as the elves have an explicit conception of Arkay.

No, they have no conception of Arkay, neither the Altmer nor the Ayleid. And the Dunmer are farther.

Bosmeri have Arkay on the other hand, as is. And a crapload of gods with no connection to anyone else that makes their pantheon unreliable for comparative study.

 

 What are you talking about? All Bosmer deities appear in other pantheons. Baan Daar is acknowledged by the Khajiits, Jone and Jode are as well. Y'ffre is acknowledged by the Khajiits and the bretons (though the khajiits don't worship Y'ffre), and Z'en is Zenithar. And really, Dunmer and Ayleid views on Aedra aren't relevant when both cultures are Daedra worshipers. As for the Altmer, given that their the elves most butt-hurt about mortality it's not surprising that Arkay veneration isn't significant among them, but keep in mind that Arkay is acknowledged by the Dwemer (who recognize him as the planet RKHET) and Orkey was most likely the Orsimer version of Arkay.

 

edit: Actually, the Altmeri Arkay is likely Xarxes, the elven chronicler of ancestry. There's even a lore book which posits that Xarxes and Arkay are the same. See the link at the bottom of my post.

He's only Malacath after the Orsimer Curse of a portion of the Chimer.

He has nothing to do with defending outcasts and pariahs before, the whole point ot the metaphor is that he became one and thus decided to protect them.

His other avatars have nothing to do with protecting the outcast (Orkey who is a trickster malevolent god, Mauloch who is the god of revenge,...)

You're also here forgetting that Malacath's full title also name him the Bloody Curse. He is a god of foul magic that screws people.

And he is also the keeper of Sworn Oaths, that has nothing to do with neither outcasts nor (barely) with curses and is another avatar's portfolio remnant.

Still not seeing any alternative explanation for why the ancient nords distinguished between Malacath and Orkey. I'd maintain that the nords learned of both gods through the Orsimer, and conflated them later on. They aren't Yokudans, making divine distinctions isn't as important to them.

 

 

 

 

The whole point of the Imperial Pantheon is that there isn't a divine conflict. You can't take gods from it and side them. That' not how it works.

There were opposing gods, yes. And that's old stuff, given the only one on the side of mankind only (Lorkhan) has been killed, and the reason he's been kicked out.

And the Imperial Pantheon is hardly the only belief system practiced on Tamriel. The reality is that the imperial pantheon represents a compromise position between nordic and elven theology and explicitly presents mannish and elven gods in a harmonious light.

 

The example of Y'ffre is a wrong one - he's not an opposing god to Kynareth, they are actually aspects of the same thing. That's the main reason they are not described battling each other (at least i've never found a source about them fighting). They are even enough appart that two cultures (bretons and khajiits) have both Kynareth and Y'ffre in their religion. As in, being in the same theological side.

The Khajiit acknowledge Y'ffre, but don't worship him. He's the bosmer god, and Azurah is the Kahjiit patron. Kahjiit myth doesn't depict Y'ffre and Kynareth as being bosom buddies. As for the bretons, the bretons are literally descended from human slaves of the elves. They're going to have a religion that reflects both their origin culture and that of their slave masters.

 

The main feature of Y'ffre is that it's the first god to go Earth Bone. Is that what the mer aedras mad at Lorkhan would do ?

You're ignoring here that the mer believe their gods did what was necessary to survive the consequences of Lorkhan's trick. In Y'ffre's case, becoming an earthbone granted permanency of form to the Bosmer. The elves believe that gods had to "make do" with the bag of shit Lorkhan tricked them into holding.

 

You're missign the point:

Arkay has no use because when the world was created, and the elven aedras saw they were now trapped, they killed him. He became "like Osiris" as you said. And thus directly the guardian of the dead.

Eh? Arkay is never depicted as being killed by the gods. He is sometimes depicted as a mortal who lived a life, but not the victim of divine murder.

 

So there was a god of the dead.

Shor lost this place for a big part of mankind when the Imperial pantheon was founded, so, there was no god left for the nedic dead. So Arkay "rose from the mortals" for the imperials (while nords kept Shor).

If you want to make logical links, the Okham's Razor's option is that Arkay would be a better offshoot of Lorkhan/Shor. Supported by the fact he is not in the altmer pantheon.

There's also the simple historical fact: Arkay doesn't exist before the founding of the Cyrodilic Pantheon. There's no cult of him before Alessia, and neither of his aspect of Tu'whacca, as Redguards only appear in history in the First Era.

THe bosmer religion existed before the founding of the first empire, and the Dwemer knew Arkay as the god planet RKHET long before then.

 

Source ? I don't remember speaking eye to eye with aedras but my memory may be blurry.

Meeting the avatars is a huge part of the imperial cult questline. Look it up on UESP.

 

 

and picked a fight with Tsun in Skyrim.

In Oblivion. In Sovngarde. Which in itself is both impossible (as aedras are trapped on Nirn, if they still are) and a belief construct (dead true nords do go in Valhalla, don't they ? So there must be a Tsun guarding the Whale Bridge).

And you may have seen while being there that there was no one in Shor's Throne.

 

Sovngarde is not in Oblivion.

As for no one being on Shor's throne, you should have talked to the npcs more. They tell the Dragonborn that "Shor's high seat stands empty; his mien is too bright for mortal eyes."

 

I don't think so. In fact there's two main story points in Oblivion that are more than suspicious.

- Martin has to sacrifice himself (as dragonborn emperor) and destroy the Amulet of Kings to "summon Akatosh". Basically draining everything that is akatosh-y in imperial belief. Then he becomes a giant fierry dragon, then a statue.

Martin uses the power of the oversoul of emperors to conjure that dragon. Given that the dragon souls have some sort connection to Akatosh, breaking a soul gem filled with all sorts of dragon souls probably has some interesting effects. (That's what the Chim El-Adabal is, in part, a soul gem storing the souls of every emperor)

 

- in Knight of the Nine you get armed by the Divines "themselves" to fight Umaril. I'm pretty sure you never speak to any Aedra in it - including Talos.

Talos is the prophet of Anvil. And remember that a big theme of the KotN DLC is that the Aedra require champions to act in these modern times.

 

 

As said before, that's one god. Not exactly pantheons clashing.

And nords aren't exactly hating elves because of that (they have a strong non-cosmical backstory for that).

 

Alduin being the "evil elven" aspect of Akatosh would be an actual good point I could abide to, evenmore as he's munching on nord souls in the nord afterlife created by Shor, and meant to destroy the world planned by Shor to make a new one, but there's some unanswered questions around the concept. For example, Nords do have Akatosh too.  And there's another culture (Redguards) that has both of them too (Ruptga and Satakal). And there's Alduin himself speaking to you in the game, and he's clearly saying he's not Akatosh. Or Auri-El.

Keep in mind the skyrim book "Alduin is real, and he ent Akatosh." There's a strong tradition of conflating the time dragon with Alduin in Nordic religion. The two have become separated in the minds of most Nords with the exportation of the Imperial Cult to Skyrim, but originally the Nords viewed the two as the same. That the dragons and Alduin confirm the falsity of this conflation is not an argument against the fact that the nords conflated the two. (In fact, Alduin is likely responsible for the conflation, he's arrogant enough to make the claim.

 

What he may be is an independant aspect that doesn't know entirely he is born of the cosmogonical act of Lorkhan's slaying (being it real or not), or empowered by the act, or doesn't care, or a mix of that.

I'd actually like that. A sort of dragon demigod (he has some of the dragon vulnerabilities, and dragons are lesser aedras anyway, and he can be punched, but does not die like the others). He's clearly manifesting a lot more than the aedras and even the daedras. And without any believers left, even if the ancient nords may have made him this way because the thought of Alduin as Auri-El.

That's actually deliciously ironic and incredibly deep main-story-wise if you think of it: the murder of Lorkhan (which is a theological metaphor of elven treachery upon men) created Alduin; men created Talos, and his purpose is amongst others to slay dragons (look at his statue). The Thalmor want to take revenge on men because of the whole Lorkhan thing, and go back to the spirit world, and banned the worship of Talos, because they don't want a manmade god protecting the men like Lorkhan was. And so Alduin, who is the dark side of the beginning of times of Auri-El/Akatosh, could end the world.

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the dragons are the part of Akatosh not imbued within his god-planet. They're his bits and pieces that "descended" from him and were born into the mortal plane, much as the elves claim divine ancestry.

 

edit: OH yes, before I forget

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tu%27whacca,_Arkay,_Xarxes

 

A lore book that explicitly conflates Arkay, Tu'whacca, and the Altmeri Xarxes, and Orkey.

[Guest]

Maybe you two could talk about how the orc society live and give some ideas about how game play and scripts should be set up.

I already made a little beta stronghold for such a mod but without scripts or npcs it is pointless.

 

So any of u interested in working on such a thing or just debate about a philosophies of a made up society?

not hating, just stoned as hell but genuinely curious.

[Luminar]

Maybe you two could talk about how the orc society live and give some ideas about how game play and scripts should be set up.

I already made a little beta stronghold for such a mod but without scripts or npcs it is pointless.

 

So any of u interested in working on such a thing or just debate about a philosophies of a made up society?

not hating, just stoned as hell but genuinely curious.

Well, what's your objective for your mod? Do you just want to add another settlement? Is it going to be a quest mod? I mean, this is loverslab here, so if all you're doing is adding a settlement you can just imitate the existing strongholds and feature excuses for sex. If you've got a questline in mind, then things should be structured to support that.

[Guest]

 

Maybe you two could talk about how the orc society live and give some ideas about how game play and scripts should be set up.

I already made a little beta stronghold for such a mod but without scripts or npcs it is pointless.

 

So any of u interested in working on such a thing or just debate about a philosophies of a made up society?

not hating, just stoned as hell but genuinely curious.

Well, what's your objective for your mod? Do you just want to add another settlement? Is it going to be a quest mod? I mean, this is loverslab here, so if all you're doing is adding a settlement you can just imitate the existing strongholds and feature excuses for sex. If you've got a questline in mind, then things should be structured to support that.

 

 

well since its a orc stronghold I set up areas where various 'jobs' are possible like crafting, gathering, cooking and so on. I also planned to setup a fighting pit as an extension to the mines. btw, its not my mod, it was just a 'helping out', I got other stuff on my plate atm. This was a more of an assistance/side-project. it will remain dead until someone actually picks up the mantle, I just did not want the lack of the existence of a stronghold to not be a barrier for people who might be interested.

 

I was not sure what kind of storyline it would be, dragonborn taking over a fallen stronghold or slavery style with the player moving up the chain and finally killing the boss and taking over. Anyway I even extended the fortifications to simulate bandit, giant, orc attacks so the player besides doing whatever can also be involved in fending off invasions.

two fun ideas I had was to implement script similar to hearthfire that allows you to further build up your hold and if you leave your hold for too long it can actually be taken over. The other idea I had was to make it possible to fight with other holds, obviously the base NPCs who are essential will be unkillable but the rest can be enslaved or killed. it would be a good idea to add more NPCs to make the fight more than just a brawl.

 

anyway those were my ideas, unless there is actual interest and someone willing to work on these stuff I wont take the current beta state any further.

 

[Luminar]

 

 

Maybe you two could talk about how the orc society live and give some ideas about how game play and scripts should be set up.

I already made a little beta stronghold for such a mod but without scripts or npcs it is pointless.

 

So any of u interested in working on such a thing or just debate about a philosophies of a made up society?

not hating, just stoned as hell but genuinely curious.

Well, what's your objective for your mod? Do you just want to add another settlement? Is it going to be a quest mod? I mean, this is loverslab here, so if all you're doing is adding a settlement you can just imitate the existing strongholds and feature excuses for sex. If you've got a questline in mind, then things should be structured to support that.

 

 

well since its a orc stronghold I set up areas where various 'jobs' are possible like crafting, gathering, cooking and so on. I also planned to setup a fighting pit as an extension to the mines. btw, its not my mod, it was just a 'helping out', I got other stuff on my plate atm. This was a more of an assistance/side-project. it will remain dead until someone actually picks up the mantle, I just did not want the lack of the existence of a stronghold to not be a barrier for people who might be interested.

 

I was not sure what kind of storyline it would be, dragonborn taking over a fallen stronghold or slavery style with the player moving up the chain and finally killing the boss and taking over. Anyway I even extended the fortifications to simulate bandit, giant, orc attacks so the player besides doing whatever can also be involved in fending off invasions.

two fun ideas I had was to implement script similar to hearthfire that allows you to further build up your hold and if you leave your hold for too long it can actually be taken over. The other idea I had was to make it possible to fight with other holds, obviously the base NPCs who are essential will be unkillable but the rest can be enslaved or killed. it would be a good idea to add more NPCs to make the fight more than just a brawl.

 

anyway those were my ideas, unless there is actual interest and someone willing to work on these stuff I wont take the current beta state any further.

 

Honestly, that sounds like it'd be better suited for a bandit stronghold than an orc one. Orc strongholds have been presented as being strongly connected to family units and clans, that sounds more like a bunch of rogues getting together.

Unfortunately, I'm not in any sort of position to make commitments to a modding project. RL stuff and all that.

[Guest]

 

 

 

Maybe you two could talk about how the orc society live and give some ideas about how game play and scripts should be set up.

I already made a little beta stronghold for such a mod but without scripts or npcs it is pointless.

 

So any of u interested in working on such a thing or just debate about a philosophies of a made up society?

not hating, just stoned as hell but genuinely curious.

Well, what's your objective for your mod? Do you just want to add another settlement? Is it going to be a quest mod? I mean, this is loverslab here, so if all you're doing is adding a settlement you can just imitate the existing strongholds and feature excuses for sex. If you've got a questline in mind, then things should be structured to support that.

 

 

well since its a orc stronghold I set up areas where various 'jobs' are possible like crafting, gathering, cooking and so on. I also planned to setup a fighting pit as an extension to the mines. btw, its not my mod, it was just a 'helping out', I got other stuff on my plate atm. This was a more of an assistance/side-project. it will remain dead until someone actually picks up the mantle, I just did not want the lack of the existence of a stronghold to not be a barrier for people who might be interested.

 

I was not sure what kind of storyline it would be, dragonborn taking over a fallen stronghold or slavery style with the player moving up the chain and finally killing the boss and taking over. Anyway I even extended the fortifications to simulate bandit, giant, orc attacks so the player besides doing whatever can also be involved in fending off invasions.

two fun ideas I had was to implement script similar to hearthfire that allows you to further build up your hold and if you leave your hold for too long it can actually be taken over. The other idea I had was to make it possible to fight with other holds, obviously the base NPCs who are essential will be unkillable but the rest can be enslaved or killed. it would be a good idea to add more NPCs to make the fight more than just a brawl.

 

anyway those were my ideas, unless there is actual interest and someone willing to work on these stuff I wont take the current beta state any further.

 

Honestly, that sounds like it'd be better suited for a bandit stronghold than an orc one. Orc strongholds have been presented as being strongly connected to family units and clans, that sounds more like a bunch of rogues getting together.

Unfortunately, I'm not in any sort of position to make commitments to a modding project. RL stuff and all that.

 

 

Clan wars maybe? idk. people seemed to want some kind of orc centric kind of slavery mod. if clan on clan war is a no go then just bandits then.

*shrug* it makes no matter. well hopefully someone actually would be interested in doing something about it.

 

[Nickolos1818]

I wasn't interested in a " orc slavery " mod.  So many mods on this site already got that stuff covered.  I was more interested in the original concept of either taking over a stronghold as cheif, or if playing as a female " joining " the clan as a wife.

[Alploochra]

Maybe you two could talk about how the orc society live and give some ideas about how game play and scripts should be set up.

I already made a little beta stronghold for such a mod but without scripts or npcs it is pointless.

 

So any of u interested in working on such a thing or just debate about a philosophies of a made up society?

not hating, just stoned as hell but genuinely curious.

 

Already been working on a Orc Stronghold mod, as stated in the thread.

There's no one interested in CKing it, that's why the discussion is about religion.

I wasn't interested in a " orc slavery " mod.  So many mods on this site already got that stuff covered.  I was more interested in the original concept of either taking over a stronghold as cheif, or if playing as a female " joining " the clan as a wife.

 

Same.

(With slavery chunks in it for the non-orcs).

[Alploochra]

Religious stuff with no link to orc strongholds

 

Pelinal is linked with the Covenant in the last part of the Song of Pelinal, which describes Pelinal as being at Alessia's deathbed. (an odd description, seeing as by then Pelinal had been murdered)

That's interpreting a lot what's written in it. It only speaks of the "convention" as a time mark.

 

 

And Auri-el is traditionally depicted as despising Lorkhan's trick and waging war in response. Remember, the elves view Lorkhan as a trickster who beguiled the Aedra, and the nords traditionally conflated Akatosh with the fearsome Alduin.

He's depicted as waging war "on the armies of Lorkhan". Just Lorkhan, again.
That could eventually be an allegory of the elven conquerors of Altmora, except altmorans didn't have Shor as a god, just the animal totems, back there, so that's blurry.
 

Only the Chimer/Dunmer made Daedra worship mainstream cultural practice, and Orsimer probably weren't orcs during the time of the Elder Wood. (Wherein Orkey's appearance in the nordic pantheon originates, as trinimac isn't transfigured until after the sundering of the continents)

Doesn't change the fact the daedras already existed and already had been worshipped by cults.
Orkey being Malacath is in the lore anyway.

 

 

Is it really so hard to believe that the ancient nords could have conceived of Arkay as a villainous god?

Yes, because there's nothing saying it in the lore and some examples contradicting it.

 

The nords paint time as the ultimate villain, a world destroying dragon who devours the souls of the dead, slays the living, and unmakes the world, only to repeat the cycle again, endlessly. Arkay, as god of the cycle of life and death, can easily be seen as endlessly forcing mortal birth and death, and thus being a villain of the same sort.

That's just forgetting that the god of times and cycles is Akatosh. And the villainous part is specifically Alduin.

Also, no version of Arkay - Arkay, Tu'whacca, even Xarxes (and that's debattable) is doing what you describe.


And by the way, Orkey didn't steal the lifespan of the nords himself, he summoned Alduin to do it. There.
He has no power over life and death in himself.
 

 

 What are you talking about? All Bosmer deities appear in other pantheons. Baan Daar is acknowledged by the Khajiits, Jone and Jode are as well. Y'ffre is acknowledged by the Khajiits and the bretons (though the khajiits don't worship Y'ffre), and Z'en is Zenithar. And really, Dunmer and Ayleid views on Aedra aren't relevant when both cultures are Daedra worshipers. As for the Altmer, given that their the elves most butt-hurt about mortality it's not surprising that Arkay veneration isn't significant among them, but keep in mind that Arkay is acknowledged by the Dwemer (who recognize him as the planet RKHET) and Orkey was most likely the Orsimer version of Arkay.

So what ?!
How could Orkey be the loaned elven Arkay that no elf civilization ever had ?! The only mer culture that has it has the imperial one.
There's no "more likely" anyway, the only lore source about this one specifically says it's Malacath !

 

 

 

Still not seeing any alternative explanation for why the ancient nords distinguished between Malacath and Orkey.

They do not. They never called him Malacath.
They just give it different names depending on role (as he's "Mauloch" during the year without Summer or Malak when they fought the Orcs God-King, he's Orkey when fucking around with mischief)

 

I'd maintain that the nords learned of both gods through the Orsimer, and conflated them later on. They aren't Yokudans, making divine distinctions isn't as important to them.

Absolutely nothing says that. And Orsimer don't worship the mer gods as far as we know.

And the Imperial Pantheon is hardly the only belief system practiced on Tamriel. The reality is that the imperial pantheon represents a compromise position between nordic and elven theology and explicitly presents mannish and elven gods in a harmonious light.

 

The Khajiit acknowledge Y'ffre, but don't worship him. He's the bosmer god, and Azurah is the Kahjiit patron. Kahjiit myth doesn't depict Y'ffre and Kynareth as being bosom buddies. As for the bretons, the bretons are literally descended from human slaves of the elves. They're going to have a religion that reflects both their origin culture and that of their slave masters.

So what ?
Your proof of a divine conflict is that there isn't one in the compromise pantheon ?

 

 

 

Eh? Arkay is never depicted as being killed by the gods. He is sometimes depicted as a mortal who lived a life, but not the victim of divine murder.

Cut a word while copying/pasting: they killed LORKHAN.

 

THe bosmer religion existed before the founding of the first empire,

You've got absolutely no proof of that, at all.

 

and the Dwemer knew Arkay as the god planet RKHET long before then.

1- There's no proof they did, it's the the 3rd lesson of Vivec, written long after their disappearance by a weirdo demigod that's best known for making things up including his own religion
2- Vivec is from the First Era, half a millenia AFTER Alessia and the new pantheon including Arkay anyway
3- Even if the two above weren't dead stops, the Dwemer still existed when the Ayleids fell untill 1E700 and the Battle of Red Mountain
There's no "long before them".

Meeting the avatars is a huge part of the imperial cult questline. Look it up on UESP.

"And the Oracle thinks I may have spoken with the goddess Mara herself, disguised in mortal form to test me, and that such chance meetings are a sign of the Nine's favor."
That's no big part and even the Oracle is not sure about it. Which is my whole point. There's no undisputable intervention of any aedra, ever. It's even blurrier with the Zenithar aspect.

Sovngarde is not in Oblivion.

In Aetherius. Doesn't change the point.

 

As for no one being on Shor's throne, you should have talked to the npcs more. They tell the Dragonborn that "Shor's high seat stands empty; his mien is too bright for mortal eyes."

Yeah that's totally not a cover story and i was too dumb to ask where was Odin when in Valhalla.
The fact is, no Divine interaction, again. My point.
 

Martin uses the power of the oversoul of emperors to conjure that dragon. Given that the dragon souls have some sort connection to Akatosh, breaking a soul gem filled with all sorts of dragon souls probably has some interesting effects. (That's what the Chim El-Adabal is, in part, a soul gem storing the souls of every emperor)

So we're okay there's no deity involved in the fiery dragon thing.

 

Talos is the prophet of Anvil. And remember that a big theme of the KotN DLC is that the Aedra require champions to act in these modern times.

You want him to be Talos, not the same thing. Giving the Blessing isn't beyond the capability of good religious magic users, or gestalt belief, and even when everything else failling, Talos is no Aedra.

Again, it's my whole point.
Aedras don't do anything, and you don't have at any moment a indubitable proof in TES3+ you ever spoke to a deity.
Aedras not being able to do anything "now" is kinda a confession.

 

 

Keep in mind the skyrim book "Alduin is real, and he ent Akatosh." There's a strong tradition of conflating the time dragon with Alduin in Nordic religion. The two have become separated in the minds of most Nords with the exportation of the Imperial Cult to Skyrim, but originally the Nords viewed the two as the same. That the dragons and Alduin confirm the falsity of this conflation is not an argument against the fact that the nords conflated the two. (In fact, Alduin is likely responsible for the conflation, he's arrogant enough to make the claim.

I believe it's actually stating clearly they are not the same, not that they were in the past. So does the scholar's take on the same thing.

Also, Alduin clearly says when he can he's not Akatosh. So do Paarthunax. In fact what turned Paarthurnax around was Alduin proclaiming himself a god (while actually abandonning his divine mission of destroyer to become ruler).

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the dragons are the part of Akatosh not imbued within his god-planet. They're his bits and pieces that "descended" from him and were born into the mortal plane, much as the elves claim divine ancestry.

The god-planets is just a passing metaphor in Vivec's drug stuff.

Dragons are sheds of Akatosh, they are lesser aedras. Alduin is repeateadly said the first one and the better one. He has clearly a stronger aedra part, as you can't soulsteal him.
Btw that's another blurry point, dragons are specifically said to be eternal and don't reproduce; strong ones can revive fallen ones, and strong ones can absorb the power of weaker ones, too, and that prevent them to be revived (that's what you do, and why they fear you, and why the ones killed by the Akaviri/Blades never respawned, because hunted to the last they couldn't revive - the only one able to do that left seems to be Alduin when the game begins).
So what happens when a Dragonborn dies ?
Are the eaten ones liberated ?

edit: OH yes, before I forget

 

http://www.uesp.net/...,_Arkay,_Xarxes

 

A lore book that explicitly conflates Arkay, Tu'whacca, and the Altmeri Xarxes, and Orkey.

 

 

edit: Actually, the Altmeri Arkay is likely Xarxes, the elven chronicler of ancestry. There's even a lore book which posits that Xarxes and Arkay are the same. See the link at the bottom of my post.

Well this just contradict frontly True Nature of the Orcs (and both are in TESO), and TNotO is the most represented book of the two through the game series.
Making Orkey an evil Xarxes expy would make him the one and only malevolent aedra ever (as they are shaped by their cultures, they are always to the culture's profit). It would also be a strange reason to name Arkay after the malevolent Orkey if you want to compromise between nords and elves... That's giving the name of a nord enemy god to an elven god. You would gain points with noone doing that, especially to replace Shezzar.

The author of this book also jumps quickly to conclusions: Orkey - Arkay - To-Arcka -Tu'whacca while those cultures are clearly not from a common linguistic basis.
On the other hand Orkey being the reason the Nedes call the orsimer Orcs is simplier.

There's discussions online that are proposing the fact that the ancient nords actually put Malacath and Xarxes together (being the enemy gods and all), and putting the god of cycles of their enemy in a malevolent aspect because they already had a god protecting their own dead - Shor.
An interesting thing here is that they put in fact together two lesser/demi elven gods/ancestor spirits (Xarxes and Trinimac) so that may be a trail of sort.
That would also make Xarxes calling Auri-El to curse the nords (by killing their patron god) and Malacath cursing the nords with Alduin (who eats their dead) the different retelling of the same story.

I may see another explanation: Orkey is in fact the nords's Xarxes, an enemy god. Cursing people, from the nords's POV, who didn't give a fuck about a mucky foreigner pointy-eared god of death. When Malacath appeared, he sort of sticked to that - the orsimer being enemies to the nord helping a lot. Orsimer became nicknamed Orcs. When finally Alessia sundered the dichotomy, Xarxes and Arkay became benevolent gods for everyone (and "Arkay" was to make "Orkey" be forgotten) and the malevolent part was totally left to Malacath who mantled it (so, 'the Bloody Curse").
I don't have to explain how mantling is loved by TES writers. That's why the "Alduin is the dark part of Akatosh being shed" has meaning in my eyes (since yesterday I also found that that has the same base idea so i'm sort of conforted in it).

 

[bimbochoas]

I would absolutely not mind it if the chieftains of the orc strongholds keep PCs of any race as "trophies".

 

Another idea in this context would be your typical orc mercenaries that you can encounter and that would start a conversation with you. In those conversations they would tell you that a strong / beautiful / capable female like you should not wander around freely but serve the orcs instead.

You could either accept that fate, considering that your opponent is serious about it and looks like you should not take a fight with him lightly. Then he would take you with him rather peacefully and you get married by force to the leader of a random orc stronghold.

You could also refuse his demand and a fight would start. Should you lose you will be collared and chained and dragged with him by force. In the end you would get sold to a stronghold and serve their leader as a slave and pet.

 

Although both options - accepting willingly or refusing and losing the fight - would mean that you lose a lot of freedom and force you into servitude of your future orc master, being married to him would allow you more freedom and a more gentle behaviour and treatment by your master in general. Getting captured after refusing the marriage would of course force you into slavery and the lowest status of the stronghold.

 

I know that it probably won't get realised anyway, I am merely offering sparks of ideas so others can pick them up and work with them.

 

I like this ideal a lot, but add in if your orc female and you enter stronghold you could get forcefully wed to the chief

[Carabosse]

I would love to see an Orc centred mod. I planned for a stronghold where there are only females left. This due to the males being beset with ill luck or driven from the stronghold by the females as deemed "unfit for purpose". The role of the player would have been to convince this sisterhood to consider a rather inept Orc, which the player had met through other means, and take him as their chieftain. Convincing them that the merits of his strength, bravery, intellect, leadership were worthy of their attention. That involved a series of quests, such as staging mock battles, telling tales of his deeds (less straightforward when his version has to corroborate your own).

[Alploochra]

That's actually pretty fun.

There's only one case where this should cause the main character to be morally obligated to not help the inept one, that is, if he is a faithful orc himself. But that resolves itself because then the pc can take the stronghold over...


EDIT: Hum. Forgot the pc being a faithful female orc. Maybe inserting another reason for her to be linked to the inept one there.


EDIT2: Welcome back, by the way. I was thinking this inept orc thing had a familiar ring to it.

[Nickolos1818]

I would love to see an Orc centred mod. I planned for a stronghold where there are only females left. This due to the males being beset with ill luck or driven from the stronghold by the females as deemed "unfit for purpose". The role of the player would have been to convince this sisterhood to consider a rather inept Orc, which the player had met through other means, and take him as their chieftain. Convincing them that the merits of his strength, bravery, intellect, leadership were worthy of their attention. That involved a series of quests, such as staging mock battles, telling tales of his deeds (less straightforward when his version has to corroborate your own).

 

OH I like this idea!  Maybe tie in some slight weirdness to it, or a couple different endings.  Multiple options of how to do the " getting a new chieftain " quest, Ah so many ideas to try to come up with now hmmmmm.....