Can someone explain why people like UNP and 7base over CBBE?

[Fredas]

Where's the love for CHSBV3?

 

Short answer: Japan.  Don't worry.  There's plenty. ;p

[blabba]

HueHueHue, as some of you may (or may not) know, I'm a bit of an Outfit Studio experimentalist.

I found it interesting that there was a 7base .nif Caliente planted in Outfit Studio for converting from SevenBase to CBBE....

I thought 'F*** IT' <insert famous patrick the starfish gif of moving something and putting it over there> basically took Caliente's 7base convert nif, placed it in CalBody shapedata folder and renamed it to the CalienteBody.nif

 

As such I bring you my only attempt at making a SevenBase Advanced BodySlide:

DISCLAIMER: I HAVE NOT TESTED WHAT HAPPENS IN GAME, NOR WILL I SINCE I'M busy doing 100 other things...

All I can say is try it out, if it works, great! Maybe this solves everyone's problems! If not then post a picture for the lulz, and maybe a more experienced person can fix?

 

 

 

 

 

If this does actually work in game (doubt it) or only has seam issues in game, then I'll go ahead and actually try putting some time into making this happen.

Of course if it does actually work, everyone who uses it owes 1 cookie each to Cell and Caliente.

 

As for why I posted this here? I got this idea while reading this thread and seeing Cell's posts made me excited xD

So yea deal with it, if it's slightly off-topic, it's no more off-topic than most posts here from original OP's question anyway lol.

 

Edit: Just realized something, since my CBBE textures matched this Body, it seems to be more of a CBBE 'preset' for SevenBase, which is good and bad, it means this should work but it also means the lower vertex count thing...

[Kidaen]

 

 

 

 

Higher poly count is a tangible, measurable and relevant reason to prefer that body type. Isn't it? It's not as trivial, meaningless or irrelevant as "the sun is hot". 

 

I personally don't care who likes what. But I do appreciate people exercising critical thinking and reasoning skills and was just hoping to keep people moving in that direction. There could be a right answer here, but we'll never find it if every response is based on taste.

 

 

In this case it indeed is as relevant as "the sun is hot". As I said earlier, the vertex count doesn't do much on it's own. For example, a simple cube has 8 vertices - you can increase that amount to 8000 and there is not the tiniest difference on how the cube looks.

 

And when you add three orders of magnitude more verticies to a circle you refine the shape of the resulting polygon to become a better-looking circle.

 

 

 

It's not the same, though. You can increase the amount of vertices with the press of a button, more or less. And it doesn't change how the mesh looks one bit. You can have the exact same mesh with 500 and 5000 vertices and you won't notice a difference - other than it takes a lot more ressources to render the mesh with the higher count.

 

You're visualizing scenarios where the modeler is arbitrarily adding vertices to a 100% flat surface.  I am talking about:

 

1) Improving the curvature of what's supposed to be a curved surface.  (See the shoulders example from earlier.)

2) Preventing in-game customization from revealing mesh shortcomings.  (Expansion of breasts, modification of nipples.)

3) Enabling more refined detail on the whole.

 

 

Resource arguments are hardly invalid, but I believe the focus here is on what is "best" among what's available... not what is best for a given person's hardware.

 

Random, off-topic note: Natural nipples apparently point the same direction.

[Cyndi]

 

Why mess around with something, when you can just get what you want out of the box?

 

That is exactly the point. What if the availabe out of the box options are not what you want? I'd rather order a blank pizza and doing the rest on my own than eating a pizza with stuff on it that I don't like.

 

 

Then by all means order your blank pizza, I'm not arguing you shouldn't if you want it, but don't expect me to do the same, when what I want is right there.

 

I answered why I, myself specifically choose a body over cbbe. It's a given that my choice isn't for everybody. 

 

 

Like it or lump it, there is always going to be different bodies. Same with skeletons, I personally dislike the max skeleton, but that's my opinion and my choice to tailor my own to my needs, since it really wasn't what I wanted out of the box.  pardon the OT

[GrimReaper]

 

You're visualizing scenarios where the modeler is arbitrarily adding vertices to a 100% flat surface.  I am talking about:

 

1) Improving the curvature of what's supposed to be a curved surface.  (See the shoulders example from earlier.)

2) Preventing in-game customization from revealing mesh shortcomings.  (Expansion of breasts, modification of nipples.)

3) Enabling more refined detail on the whole.

 

Resource arguments are hardly invalid, but I believe the focus here is on what is "best" among what's available... not what is best for a given person's hardware.

 

 

You can do the same for complex figures. It takes no more than the press of a button to double the amount of vertices from the CBBE body _without_ changing how it looks. It won't be more detailed or better looking, effectively you wouldn't change a damn thing other than rendering the body would be more demanding.

 

I never implied that the demands of ressources is something that has to be considered here. I just said that the _only_ thing you will reach by simply adding more vertices is that the mesh takes up more ressources.

[Redflyingmonkey]

HueHueHue, as some of you may (or may not) know, I'm a bit of an Outfit Studio experimentalist.

I found it interesting that there was a 7base .nif Caliente planted in Outfit Studio for converting from SevenBase to CBBE....

I thought 'F*** IT' <insert famous patrick the starfish gif of moving something and putting it over there> basically took Caliente's 7base convert nif, placed it in CalBody shapedata folder and renamed it to the CalienteBody.nif

 

As such I bring you my only attempt at making a SevenBase Advanced BodySlide:

DISCLAIMER: I HAVE NOT TESTED WHAT HAPPENS IN GAME, NOR WILL I SINCE I'M busty doing 100 other things...

All I can say is try it out, if it works, great! Maybe this solves everyone's problems! If not then post a picture for the lulz, and maybe a more experienced person can fix?

 

 

 

 

 

If this does actually work in game (doubt it) or only has seam issues in game, then I'll go ahead and actually try putting some time into making this happen.

Of course if it does actually work, everyone who uses it owes 1 cookie each to Cell and Caliente.

 

As for why I posted this here? I got this idea while reading this thread and seeing Cell's posts made me excited xD

So yea deal with it, if it's slightly off-topic, it's no more off-topic than most posts here from original OP's question anyway lol.

Insta CTD ! Can't figure out if shit went down with the tunic I wear when the game starts or if my game just doesn't support the bodyslide'd verticles  

 

Nice try though bwahaha

[GrimReaper]

 

And when you add three orders of magnitude more verticies to a circle you refine the shape of the resulting polygon to become a better-looking circle.

 

 

 

A circle has an infinite amount of vertices. Or none, depending on who you ask.

[blabba]

@redflyingcucumber

 

I just tried it, cuz I got too curious and it actually worked....

Of course some the sliders like the slim thigh ones and stuff kinda fuck up the body at High values....

 

Also HUGE neck seams and arm gaps...

Also since it's a CBBE 'preset' it actually isn't compatible with UNP/SevenBase textures..

There's also bound to be some other problems, but I'll look into this whole lane/possiblity when I get more time, or maybe my suggestion may spark another modder's interest

 

Ok seriously I promise this is my last post about this and will no longer make Off Topic posts here, in fact i'm not gonna making another post here

I humbly apologize to OP for off-tracking his thread and pray to the forum gods (moderators) for forgiveness this once.

 

Edit: This thought archived for future use here

[Kidaen]

 

 

And when you add three orders of magnitude more vertices to a circle you refine the shape of the resulting polygon to become a better-looking circle.

 

 

A circle has an infinite amount of vertices. Or none, depending on who you ask.

 

Exactly. Using vertices as the basic for digital modeling means drawing a circle is either a worthless task (as the infinite number of vertices will consume all of a system's runtime trying to locate and define the position of all vertices), or an impossible one (as the total lack of vertices make it impossible to model).

 

The same thus holds true for any attempt at modeling any shape or structure that contains any kind of circle within it. So you can't equate increasing the number of rendered vertices on an object defined by a fixed number of vertices with increasing the number of rendered vertices on an object that can only become a better representative of itself with the increased vertex count.

[Fredas]

I never implied that the demands of ressources is something that has to be considered here. I just said that the _only_ thing you will reach by simply adding more vertices is that the mesh takes up more ressources.

 

Then I guess I don't see the point of your statement.  You're saying adding vertices to a square just makes for redundancy.  True, but a very different topic from what I am saying, which is that you can make a better circle with more vertices.  Now, if you mean to say that it's up to the modeler to make sure he's actually improving the circle rather than just adding to it, then, again, that's true, which is why I made a point of highlighting some of the specific strengths of a higher vertex-count model.

[venomg3]

1. hilarious how these fights are now  "look at the verts on my body"

 

2. body vs body should never include outside tools as base shape is the first thing you see, and cbbe base shape just doesnt appeal to many for a number of reasons

 

3. bodyslide is irrelavant to other body users because they fell comfortable in there base shape why modify what appears perfect to them. bodyslide appeals to that small majority that coudlnt find a shape that worked for them so they attempt to modify cbbe base shape.

you can increase whatever sliders you want still wont be able to appeal to the ones that have found there shape

 

4.outfit studio renders bodyslide pointless for the price of 5-10 mins of time you can have a armor for any supported body be it cbbe 7b unp unpb

srsly people just learn outfit studio and stop questioning why people choose what they do

[LaEspada]

4.outfit studio renders bodyslide pointless for the price of 5-10 mins of time you can have a armor for any supported body be it cbbe 7b unp unpb

srsly people just learn outfit studio and stop questioning why people choose what they do

 

You can't say things like that unless you've done multiple conversions yourself and are willing and able to do so and result in a product that yields exceptional results. If you done that and have shown significant proof that it's your original conversion I'll retract my statement.

 

It's like saying sky diving is fun so everyone should do it. Not going to appeal to everyone, especially since I get nausea a meter off the ground.

Or saying that learning calculus is easy for you so anyone should be able to learn it.

 

Although I do agree that bodyslide is extremely useful tool and has great potential. I used to use it myself along with CBBE and my own custom bodyslide preset. However, I now use UNP-variants of sevenbase bombshell, UNPBO, 7B OPPAI, not because of it's versatility(which obviously CBBE bodyslide has) but quality that is in my respectful opinion far surpasses that of it's CBBE counterparts.

[GrimReaper]

 

 

Then I guess I don't see the point of your statement.  You're saying adding vertices to a square just makes for redundancy.  True, but a very different topic from what I am saying, which is that you can make a better circle with more vertices.  Now, if you mean to say that it's up to the modeler to make sure he's actually improving the circle rather than just adding to it, then, again, that's true, which is why I made a point of highlighting some of the specific strengths of a higher vertex-count model.

 

 

The goal is to make something look like a circle because as we know, it is impossible to render a real circle. If you have something that looks like a circle to the human eye, it is effectively a circle. As you add more and more vertices you get diminishing returns up to the point where adding more vertices doesn't make an actual difference. The vertex count only matters to that point. Anyway, we're getting sidetracked here - my point was that a higher vertex count doesn't necessarily make a better looking body. Case in point, the Dream Girl Body mod - less vertices than the UNP body but actually looks better from a technical point of view.

[Fredas]

my point was that a higher vertex count doesn't necessarily make a better looking body. Case in point, the Dream Girl Body mod - less vertices than the UNP body but actually looks better from a technical point of view.

 

And yet still has the same shortcomings of a low vertex-count model.  Case in point, relative absence of detail in the abdomen.  And all three of my previous points also apply.  (I try to shy away from knocking this mesh, since the only base mesh of higher precision in Skyrim is Lady Body.)

 

Anyway, so your point is in fact that the modeler must make a better circle rather than just adding to it.  I definitely agree that some are better at this than others.

[zupra]

1. hilarious how these fights are now  "look at the verts on my body"

 

2. body vs body should never include outside tools as base shape is the first thing you see, and cbbe base shape just doesnt appeal to many for a number of reasons

 

3. bodyslide is irrelavant to other body users because they fell comfortable in there base shape why modify what appears perfect to them. bodyslide appeals to that small majority that coudlnt find a shape that worked for them so they attempt to modify cbbe base shape.

you can increase whatever sliders you want still wont be able to appeal to the ones that have found there shape

 

4.outfit studio renders bodyslide pointless for the price of 5-10 mins of time you can have a armor for any supported body be it cbbe 7b unp unpb

srsly people just learn outfit studio and stop questioning why people choose what they do

 

I think everyone should automatically assume that all the cbbe users are using bodyslide, that is the reason why u pick CBBE. Also didn't CBBE top all the "faforite body" polls here so far? CBBE has the crown all hail CBBE!!!
 

[Fredas]

Hey, man.  Gimme a body with at least as much detail (abdomen, shoulders, etc.) as UNP, and (the capacity to create) puffy nipples, and you can call it CBBE-I-Told-You-So for all I care.  It'll be The One. ;p

 

[Captain Cobra]

1. hilarious how these fights are now  "look at the verts on my body"

 

Because CBBE users are actually playing skyrimjob.

 

 

In a vain attempt to make an unrealistic video game realistic, people (specifically, UNP/B users) grab every mod & ENB to make things look realistic, if realistic was extremely washed-out/saturated and through the eyes of someone who is shortsighted and badly needed glasses.  The ENBs, combined with the super hi-poly hi-vert fucking everything and 4096x4096 rock re-textures causes the user's Nvidia to explode, or if they're using an ATi card, to BSoD within 5 seconds of loading a save game.  While the ATi users wait for new drivers and the Nvidia users wait for the doctor to finally remove the rest of the wood screws from their body, they decide to spend their time circle-jerking about how realistic their body mods are and how CBBE plebs will never know the feel of a realistic skyrimjob.

[Spyder Arachnid]

Honestly in my opinion, it just looks better is all. It's not as jagged and plastic looking as CBBE.

 

But to each their own. Some like the barbie-esque plastic look that CBBE gives, while others prefer a more realistic look that UNP types give. And honestly, those verts really do matter and are very noticeable. Like was said earlier, in the shoulders, you can definitely tell the difference.

 

When I first started Skyrim, I used CBBE (cause at the time it was the only replacer available). Then UNP came out and it looked good, but I was a big bust type person. Then along came UNPB and that was it. After using UNPB I could never go back to CBBE. I tried, seriously, I did. It felt like a downgrade going back to CBBE. So I've always stuck with UNPB now.

 

That's my feelings on the subject. UNP is just more detailed and looks better in my opinion.

[bob11]

 

1. hilarious how these fights are now  "look at the verts on my body"

 

2. body vs body should never include outside tools as base shape is the first thing you see, and cbbe base shape just doesnt appeal to many for a number of reasons

 

3. bodyslide is irrelavant to other body users because they fell comfortable in there base shape why modify what appears perfect to them. bodyslide appeals to that small majority that coudlnt find a shape that worked for them so they attempt to modify cbbe base shape.

you can increase whatever sliders you want still wont be able to appeal to the ones that have found there shape

 

4.outfit studio renders bodyslide pointless for the price of 5-10 mins of time you can have a armor for any supported body be it cbbe 7b unp unpb

srsly people just learn outfit studio and stop questioning why people choose what they do

 

I think everyone should automatically assume that all the cbbe users are using bodyslide, that is the reason why u pick CBBE. Also didn't CBBE top all the "faforite body" polls here so far? CBBE has the crown all hail CBBE!!!

 

 

 

Well, that's the reason for me.  xP I'd pick anything that I can adjust to my liking.  If UNP had it, I'd probably be on UNP right now, I have no attachment or loyalty to anything Now obviously you ask, what would I pick if I couldn't change.  That would probably be UNPBO as far as body shape is concerned.  7Base has damn nice thighs but the fake boobs kinda ruin it a bit.  But even UNPBO would be a compromise if I can't tweak it when I get bored.  And do I get bored!.  Plus, I need pregnancy support (although I found how to copy b3lisario's UNPB belly node weights to another UNP body to get the effect so xP).  But yeah, whatever body has the most support and the most customization will get my vote in general, otherwise I'm staying with bodyslide compatible stuff

[ousnius]

1.) I don't know what your definition of realistic is, but neither UNP, UNPB, 7B nor CBBE are realistic. UNP's breasts are too high, CBBE's breast shape isn't realistic, CBBE's upper hip isn't realistic, UNP's butt isn't that realistic, and so on. CBBE, with a bit of BodySlide adjustment and a few more vertices (especially for the thighs and (upper) hips, is actually the most realistic except for the breasts.

 

The "Real Girls" UNP textures are the opposite of real. At least without the work of ENB.

 

Note: Realism is a fact and unrelated to tastes.

 

2.) This discussion is pointless. BodySlide can work for both CBBE and UNP the exact same way after sliders with good quality are made. Outfit Studio can be used to convert to CBBE, UNP and the rest.

 

3.) CBBE BodySlide is all about choices. It allows for flexibility, but not enough to cover everyone's tastes, like UNP's lower breast curve, UNP's butt curve/upper hips or even poly count. Poly count being a thing that will be improved for CBBE when the time comes.

 

4.) And finally, what looks better is completely up to you.

[hryh23k9823u]

 

Resource arguments are hardly invalid, but I believe the focus here is on what is "best" among what's available... not what is best for a given person's hardware.

 

 

Preciselly the abdomen area is where both bodies are overkilling the verice count. Again, normal maps, textures, postprocessing completely covers the shape. Vertices doesn't add any detail in surfaces. They add smoother angles in curved shapes. That's all. In surfaces, nothing. And second, no matter if you have a computer from the NASA, Skyrim won't make further than 4gb memory usage... That's why I said that if Skyrim was made in CryEngine or some modern engine instead of a 20yo engine that have problems running in a XBOX, we could talk about raw models with 30k vertices... That's why we talk about optimization.

 

[Aegis]

Bodyslide/outfit studio really don't have much influence over a typical user's decision.

 

Just look on the nexus. Of the ~500 cbbe related mods, only ~30 supports bodyslide (6%). Modders don't like making armors for bodyslide because it's a huge hassle and a lot of extra work; typical steam/nmm users don't use bodyslide because it's more complicated than clicking the "Download with NMM" button - and it doesn't help that most of the armors they use don't have bodyslide support anyways.

 

 

As for the outfit studio; granted, it's a great piece of software, but most self-respecting modders won't use it because its capabilities are quite limited, and the results you get from outfit studio will never be nearly as good as those from 3ds/blender. Most casual users, on the other hand, also don't use outfit studio because it's a lot more complicated than they'd be willing to learn, and certainly more so than the "Download with NMM and Play" they are used to. After all, how many casual users actually know how to properly weight paint? Or auto rig, for that matter.

 

 

There are also problems with UNP, especially with its vast fragmentation (UNP, UNPB, UNPO, UNPC, 7Base, Petite, just to name a few), which creates a lot of problems/confusion for its users, and makes it very difficult for a modder to decide on which standard to cater to.

 

 

So, at the end of the day, it all just comes down to personal preference. If you like the way CBBE looks, and have tons of armors/accessories for CBBE, you are most likely not going to bother with UNP no matter what other people think, and the same holds true for UNP.

 

If a CBBE user finds bodyslide to be a superior addition, then by all means, use it. On the other hand, if UNP users prefer the quality of hand sculpted body meshes, then I don't really see why the whole "more vert isn't always better" argument matters in the first place.

 

 

 

Finally, and most importantly, it is a modder's prerogative to make mods for whatever bodytype he/she prefers, and you can be sure that the modder has put a lot of thought into that decision, so you here complaining about how some modders don't support CBBE is not going to change that.

[ousnius]

 

As for the outfit studio; granted, it's a great piece of software, but most self-respecting modders won't use it because its capabilities are quite limited, and the results you get from outfit studio will never be nearly as good as those from 3ds/blender.

 

I agree with all of your points, except for this. If you know how to use Outfit Studio properly, you can get results with the exact same quality in less time (at least when the next version is out). And I don't say this because I'm one of the co-authors.

[Aegis]

Well, when I say quality, I don't mean the simple conversion from one body type to another - after all, there are already max scripts out there that allow the user to transfer the weight map between different body types.

 

What I meant by quality is the ability for the modder to take creative liberty on the project, such as changing parts of the gear to make the presentation more appealing (squeezed breasts, thinner waist, more slender thighs, etc), or even throwing the gear back into mudbox/zb to sculpt additional details to the bake.

 

I understand the value of the outfit studio, but I would assume that most modders, including myself, would prefer the ability to be able to actually create things, than just being able to reskin an armor to a different body - since the skinning can be done in seconds using maxscript.

 

 

This is also why I'm still a bit confused as to who the outfit studio is designed for: its functionalities are too limited for modders, yet it poses too steep a learning curve for typical users, so I'm not sure how many of the 'advanced users' there are who will benefit from the tool.

[quin666]

Most people fail see 3dmgame 80% UNP and 20% body mods. UNP stuff get updated a lot with different color versions 

god knows what else. Same can be said for Nexus releases. Black Talon! Black straps! Grave Strider! All UNP! People 

switch back and forward body types until give up pick UNP. Take few months somebody convert them to other body

types so why deal with wait? Same can be said for other websites. Promote UNP only. Pretty sad mods getting divided base

on body types when should be E for everybody. Some fool say UNP best thing since slice bread everybody going to agree.