If the Institute was Truly Evil...

[Miauzi]

Vor 6 Stunden sagte chocula:

Ich habe Ihren gesamten Beitrag gelesen, ihn für meine Antwort jedoch auf diesen Satz gekürzt, da ich Ihren gesamten Beitrag nicht zitieren muss.

 

Ich vermute, ich predige offene Türen ein, aber das Ganze läuft auf Poul Andersons oder Arthur C. Clarkes (ich vergesse immer, wem es zugeschrieben wird) „gewollte Aussetzung der Ungläubigkeit“ hinaus. Was diese Aussetzung wirklich durcheinanderbringt, ist, wenn ein fiktives Universum seiner eigenen Überlieferung widerspricht, wie zum Beispiel Ihre Aussage über Fusionskerne, die vor Fallout 4 Hunderte von Jahren hielten. Ein anderes Beispiel ist die Quest „Kind im Kühlschrank“. Billy sagt direkt, er sei in den Kühlschrank gekrochen, als die Bomben fielen, also war er 200 Jahre dort drin, ohne Essen und Wasser oder einen anderen Ort zum Pinkeln und Scheißen als den Kühlschrank. Wenn die Überlieferung besagt hätte, dass „Ghule nicht essen, trinken oder scheißen müssen“, gäbe es kein Problem. Aber wir wissen von Harland vom Repconn-Testgelände, dass er zumindest essen muss. Eine Möglichkeit, diese beiden Unterschiede zu vereinbaren, besteht darin, zu sagen: „Na ja, es gibt verschiedene Ghul-Stämme, denn Ghule sind letztlich mutierte Menschen. Wer weiß also, was die Strahlung (und FEV, nehme ich an) mit den verschiedenen Exemplaren gemacht haben könnte.“ Aber das ist bloße Selbstjustiz, denn soweit ich weiß, werden in der Überlieferung keine „verschiedenen Arten von Ghulen“ erwähnt (ich schließe wilde Ghule nicht ein).

 

Dies ist anders als in der Fernsehserie, wo festgestellt wurde, dass Ghule verwildern können. Zuerst dachte ich, das wäre historisch völliger Unsinn, aber dann erinnerte ich mich an Rachels (ich glaube, so heißt sie) Holoband-Nachricht an Oswald in Nuka World. Sie filmt sich selbst dabei, wie sie verwildert (ohne auf die in der Serie eingeführte Droge „Wildheit in Schach halten“ einzugehen). Ich habe FO1 oder 2 nie gespielt, aber mir ist nichts in 3 oder NV bekannt, das der Vorstellung widerspricht, dass Ghule irgendwann verwildern. In diesem Fall widerspricht sich die Geschichte also nicht (soweit ich weiß).

 

The thing with the boy in the refrigerator... is actually the second part of a "joke" -> a reference to a Hollywood movie in which someone survived a nuclear explosion in a refrigerator ("Indiana Jones"???)

The first part of this reference (or "joke") was in "Fallout NV" - there, you found a refrigerator with a skeleton and a hat just south of the starting area.

(This also required a special "perk" for this "special encounter" to even occur.)

 

Actually, the Fallout universe is known for its "quotes" or "references"... in "Fallout 2," you could also encounter the "Tradis" (Dr. Who) or find a wrecked shuttle from the "Star Trek" universe.

 

The aforementioned (probably irreversible) transformation from "normal" to "feral" ghouls is probably (in my opinion) the best thing you can find in the DLC plot about this amusement park.

Anyone who thinks that a talking (and therefore thinking) "Shining One" is something special is sadly mistaken... it already existed in the first Fallout.

 

The idea that a "Shining One" essentially "revives" its dismembered kin is definitely a "newer" idea... although I personally think it's quite good.

There's nothing about this in the "original" Fallout (for me, that's parts 1 and 2).

 

As for the trigger for this transformation from "normal" to "feral" ghoul... in my understanding, it's an EXCESS of absorbed radiation - namely, the amount of radiation absorbed after the transformation from human to "normal" ghoul.

 

Then at some point the question arises -> what proportion (of the amount) of this is the emission emitted by "Oswald" himself?

And here the story "shoots itself in the foot" again - something hasn't really been thought through to the end.

 

That a ghoul can survive for a long time without food... is part of the original "lore" of the series.

In Part 2, you find a "showman" - he exhibits a supposedly Egyptian mummy - which is actually a SLEEPING ghoul.

Finding him (and waking him up) is part of a side quest in a settlement consisting exclusively of ghouls... and they operate a nuclear reactor.

They also go into the reactor core zone!

 

So the Vault Boy, aka the ghoul, constantly needs medication to prevent himself from turning into a "feral"... never mind.

I'm a supporter of the "multiverse" theory... for me, the Fallout movie doesn't take place in the same universe as the game series.

The location of Shady Sands alone—which is the founding site of the New California Republic—is sufficient evidence for this.

You just have to look at the respective locations of both places... there are hundreds of kilometers between them.

 

But a Mr. Todd H. (a film production consultant) is the gravedigger of the "lore"... the second season is supposed to take place in New Vegas... o.m.g.

 

---

 

Oh, I still don't know what the thread opener imagines a Synth 4.0 to be?

[Count Chocula]

44 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

 

The thing with the boy in the refrigerator... is actually the second part of a "joke"

Saying Kid in a Fridge is a joke is no doubt the correct answer. But to say it's a joke means it's not part of the lore. As with the other things you mention, either we just throw up our hands and say "It's a joke, therefore not part of the lore" or "It's an alternate universe."

 

There is a class of people who will try to go through the mental gymnastics to make inconsistent stuff fit into the lore, such as with "There are different kinds of Ghouls and some don't need to eat, etc." People do this will all sorts of fiction. Sherlock Holmes enthusiasts are renowned for it. The simple answer is that, for example, Conan-Doyle was not paying attention to and probably didn't care about Dr. Watson's wives. He killed them off at need when he wanted Watson to be rooming with Holmes (Watson had a total of 4 wives as Conan-Doyle wrote it). Another well known example in Sherlock Holmes is a character named Mahomet Singh. It is highly unlikely any person in the world would ever have such a name. The simple and no doubt correct answer is that Conan-Doyle was simply ignorant. But I remember once reading some elaborate explanation that tried to say the name made sense in the Holmes universe.

 

Gen 4 synths, perhaps they would have no synth component and would be completely, totally and entirely indistinguishable from humans in absolutely every single way. When Deacon explains he and Barbara were trying to have kids, it seems pretty clear they did not succeed. But it's not clear, to me, whether that was because she was a synth or because she was killed by the UP Deathclaws. I'm not enough of a lore monkey to know whether or not there is any support in the lore to support the notion of a synth getting pregnant.

Edited April 8, 2025 by chocula

[Miauzi]

Vor 50 Minuten sagte chocula:

Zu sagen, dass „Kid in a Fridge“ ein Witz ist, ist zweifellos die richtige Antwort. Aber zu sagen, dass es ein Witz ist, bedeutet, dass es nicht Teil der Geschichte ist. Wie bei den anderen Dingen, die du erwähnst, werfen wir entweder einfach die Hände über dem Kopf zusammen und sagen: „Es ist ein Witz und daher nicht Teil der Geschichte“ oder „Es ist ein Paralleluniversum.“

 

Es gibt Menschen, die sich mit gedanklicher Verrenkung in die Überlieferung einpassen, wie zum Beispiel: „Es gibt verschiedene Arten von Ghulen, und manche müssen nicht essen usw.“ Das machen sie mit allen möglichen fiktiven Geschichten. Sherlock-Holmes-Fans sind dafür bekannt. Die einfache Antwort ist, dass Conan-Doyle beispielsweise Dr. Watsons Frauen nicht beachtete und sich wahrscheinlich auch nicht um sie kümmerte. Er tötete sie, als er wollte, dass Watson mit Holmes zusammenwohnte (Watson hatte laut Conan-Doyles Beschreibung insgesamt vier Frauen). Ein weiteres bekanntes Beispiel aus Sherlock Holmes ist eine Figur namens Mahomet Singh. Es ist höchst unwahrscheinlich, dass irgendjemand jemals einen solchen Namen tragen würde. Die einfache und zweifellos richtige Antwort ist, dass Conan-Doyle schlichtweg unwissend war. Ich erinnere mich jedoch, einmal eine ausführliche Erklärung gelesen zu haben, die den Sinn des Namens im Holmes-Universum zu begründen versuchte.

 

Synths der vierten Generation hätten vielleicht keine Synth-Komponente und wären in jeder Hinsicht völlig ununterscheidbar von Menschen. Als Deacon erklärt, dass er und Barbara versuchten, Kinder zu bekommen, scheint es ziemlich klar, dass ihnen das nicht gelang. Mir ist aber nicht klar, ob das daran lag, dass sie ein Synth war oder von den UP-Todeskrallen getötet wurde. Ich kenne mich mit Überlieferungen nicht gut genug aus, um zu wissen, ob die Überlieferung die Annahme einer Schwangerschaft eines Synths stützt.

 

What distinguishes a Synth (3.0) from a "normal" human?

If you follow the plot of the "mad" scientists in "Covenant," then the conventional medical examination methods still in existence CANNOT detect these differences... unless you kill the "subject" and perform an autopsy -> the Synth component

https://fallout.fandom.com/de/wiki/Covenant

 

Keep in mind that doctors can perform quite complex surgical procedures... and there are also various "auto-docs" in the Fallout game world!

 

So, in a female synth, everything organic (vagina, uterus, and ovaries) needed for biological reproduction (natural pregnancy and childbirth) is already present.

Yes - the ovaries must also be present - because the absence of a female period would obviously be noticeable and ultimately expose the female synth infiltrator!

 

Who is Deacon, anyway?

A person who constantly reinvents himself... a notorious liar... or the player's grandson?

 

The mod group "Fusion-City" is trying to build various bridges between Fallout 3 and 4 in a very entertaining way.

 

So, Deacon is the (male) lonely wanderer from Part 3... his genetic father (progenitor) "James" is -> identical to "Father," aka the head of the Institute.

The "James" who raises the player in the Vault is a -> synth clone... developed by the original "James" and "Pinkerton" (whom the player then meets in the broken bug).

It was strange - why "Pinkerton" in particular wasn't at all surprised by the true nature of the security chief -> he's an escaped "runner"!

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/21469

 

After the player's birth – during which their mother dies – a "James" clone is created and infiltrated into the Vault... The original "James" returns to Boston.

The failure of his project and the loss of his wife likely contributed significantly to his development of such an extremist attitude toward the inhabitants of the "surface"... which he then reveals to the player as "Father" in Part 4 on the roof of the CIT (after the Battle of Bunker Hill).

 

So Deacon has to constantly invent something new for his legend... so the story about Barbara is just another lie.

But of course, his relationship with "Sarah Lyons" at the end of Part 3 was not without (biological) consequences.

 

As we both discovered... the vanilla plot of the games contains many, very large, gaps... these can be filled in quite interesting ways.

 

This is how I got some very "strange" skeletons through a mod:

Spoiler

 

There are several such "discoveries" in police cells. So I incorporated them into my own narrative.

 

 

[Bloodfang]

On my first and last playthroughs, I always went with the Institute. Because I'm family oriented and even though Shaun is a cunt, he's still family.
The Institute was pretty impressive on the inside, with teleports, clean labs, much different than the usual Fallout stuff.

 

But when you really think about it, they have been written to be imbeciles. With senseless decisions. Now you can pretend that after you take over, you put things back on a proper track, but imo even if I think they are bitches, the Brotherhood is better (I'd go with Enclave if I could). Human centered, no bullshit, fuck mutants. I don't have much against ghouls but time isn't in their favor as their brains deteriorate and they will become feral at some point. Oh and no sexdoll bots pretending to be people they're not.

 

The whole remplacing people on the surface to have spies up there is very distateful in my eyes.

 

So they're interesting at a surface level but when you scan their motives etc, it is just stupid and barely makes any sense.

Edited April 12, 2025 by Bloodfang

[Count Chocula]

2 hours ago, Bloodfang said:

But when you really think about it, they have been written to be imbeciles.

Everyone's an imbecile. FO4 fails entirely as fiction. That's OK in my book because it's a game, not a novel.  But these kinds of discussions are still interesting.

 

If you're on this site, presumably you are not opposed to adding mods to your game. If you want to go Enclave, pretty sure America Rising 2: Legacy of the Enclave gives that option.

Edited April 12, 2025 by chocula

[nmagod]

The Institute hangs its toilet paper backwards. They're evil.

[Speed Metal]

16 hours ago, nmagod said:

The Institute hangs its toilet paper backwards.

So do the Cabots.

[MrGrey]

I think that Bethesda, back when they made this game, was kinda... enlightened. 

Kinda gotta know history and not the story they tell you tho, and what each faction represents. 

It makes for a joke of a story, because real life is stranger than good fiction.

 

That said, I want to buy nice willing slaves from an institute Synth vendor, like Liam's syth Step mom 

[Count Chocula]

On 5/7/2025 at 7:42 AM, MrGrey said:

I think that Bethesda, back when they made this game, was kinda... enlightened. 

Kinda gotta know history and not the story they tell you tho, and what each faction represents. 

It makes for a joke of a story, because real life is stranger than good fiction.

Can you elaborate on all that? What does a person have to know the history of? The Cold War? Phillip K. Dick novels?

[nmagod]

Gotta know the history of the real Fallout games, where both The Brotherhood and The Enclave were dying out but someone said "that guy is on the cover art, we have to keep the group around".

[Miauzi]

Vor 12 Minuten sagte nmagod:

Man muss die Geschichte der echten Fallout-Spiele kennen, in denen sowohl die Bruderschaft als auch die Enklave ausstarben, aber jemand sagte: „Der Typ ist auf dem Cover, wir müssen die Gruppe behalten.“

 

Since I've played almost all of the games, and my wife played what I'm missing.

- Fallout 1 -> Introduction of the Brotherhood and the Super Mutants PLUS the "Master"

- Fallout 2 -> The Western Enclave is introduced, and the protagonist destroys it... the Brotherhood essentially stays out of the fight

- Fallout Tactics -> Brotherhood splits - the losing faction is sent east in airships

- Fallout 3 -> The Eastern Enclave is introduced, and the protagonist destroys it with the help of the Eastern Brotherhood... the Brotherhood takes over their technology... the Institute is introduced indirectly via a side quest

- Fallout 4 -> The Eastern Brotherhood tries to eliminate the Institute as a competitor for power on the east coast... the protagonist gets caught in the middle of this conflict

 

Well, how does an "enclave" actually fit into the 4th game???

[South8028]

On 8.4.2025 at 12:19, Miauzi said:

 

What distinguishes a Synth (3.0) from a "normal" human?

If you follow the plot of the "mad" scientists in "Covenant," then the conventional medical examination methods still in existence CANNOT detect these differences... unless you kill the "subject" and perform an autopsy -> the Synth component

https://fallout.fandom.com/de/wiki/Covenant

 

Keep in mind that doctors can perform quite complex surgical procedures... and there are also various "auto-docs" in the Fallout game world!

 

So, in a female synth, everything organic (vagina, uterus, and ovaries) needed for biological reproduction (natural pregnancy and childbirth) is already present.

Yes - the ovaries must also be present - because the absence of a female period would obviously be noticeable and ultimately expose the female synth infiltrator!

 

Who is Deacon, anyway?

A person who constantly reinvents himself... a notorious liar... or the player's grandson?

 

The mod group "Fusion-City" is trying to build various bridges between Fallout 3 and 4 in a very entertaining way.

 

So, Deacon is the (male) lonely wanderer from Part 3... his genetic father (progenitor) "James" is -> identical to "Father," aka the head of the Institute.

The "James" who raises the player in the Vault is a -> synth clone... developed by the original "James" and "Pinkerton" (whom the player then meets in the broken bug).

It was strange - why "Pinkerton" in particular wasn't at all surprised by the true nature of the security chief -> he's an escaped "runner"!

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/21469

 

After the player's birth – during which their mother dies – a "James" clone is created and infiltrated into the Vault... The original "James" returns to Boston.

The failure of his project and the loss of his wife likely contributed significantly to his development of such an extremist attitude toward the inhabitants of the "surface"... which he then reveals to the player as "Father" in Part 4 on the roof of the CIT (after the Battle of Bunker Hill).

 

So Deacon has to constantly invent something new for his legend... so the story about Barbara is just another lie.

But of course, his relationship with "Sarah Lyons" at the end of Part 3 was not without (biological) consequences.

 

As we both discovered... the vanilla plot of the games contains many, very large, gaps... these can be filled in quite interesting ways.

 

This is how I got some very "strange" skeletons through a mod:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

There are several such "discoveries" in police cells. So I incorporated them into my own narrative.

 

 

Yes, a 3rd generation synth is no different from a human. It is a genetically modified clone of the Father, printed in a bio reactor with cell growth acceleration by means of FEV. The synth part is a kind of "slave collar" necessary for control. Reproduction in synths is switched off artificially by the Institute, in the same way, by the DNA correction method.The 3rd generation synth is not even an android. It is a normal human clone, simply genetically modified. Therefore, when dissected, except for the synth component in its body, there are no differences from a human.The Institute is blatantly lying when they call them machines. Because they have a normal human brain and they themselves are 100% human genetically.

[Miauzi]

Vor 3 Stunden sagte South8028:

Ja, ein Synth der 3. Generation unterscheidet sich nicht von einem Menschen. Er ist ein genetisch veränderter Klon des Vaters, gedruckt in einem Bioreaktor mit Zellwachstumsbeschleunigung mittels FEV. Der Synth-Teil ist eine Art „Sklavenhalsband“, das zur Kontrolle benötigt wird. Die Reproduktion der Synths wird vom Institut auf die gleiche Weise künstlich abgeschaltet, und zwar mithilfe der DNA-Korrekturmethode. Der Synth der 3. Generation ist nicht einmal ein Android. Er ist ein normaler menschlicher Klon, lediglich genetisch verändert. Daher gibt es bei der Sektion, abgesehen von der Synth-Komponente in seinem Körper, keine Unterschiede zu einem Menschen. Das Institut lügt eklatant, wenn es sie als Maschinen bezeichnet. Denn sie haben ein normales menschliches Gehirn und sind selbst genetisch zu 100 % menschlich.

 

When you "visit" the institute for the first time as a player, "Father" sends you on a sort of "introduction tour"... you're supposed to get acquainted with all the department heads, so to speak.

One of these department heads says something remarkable - he speaks of a "original sin"... because the goal of recovering the pure genetic material was to IMPROVE humanity.

The Synth 3.0 isn't just a human clone - it's an improved human... it's more resilient, stronger, smarter, etc. ... and I'm not even talking about the "Runner" model - which is significantly superior to the "normal" Synth.

And this improved human is kept as a slave and further degraded to the level of a biological machine!

 

How the synth's body is actually created – ultimately, there's only speculation about that... I think what I see in the game is a good show piece – and it would fit quite well in a "Westworld" scenario.

Just the speed with which the synths are "assembled" – there should already be tens of thousands after 2-3 months.

 

For my own blog story (my character is an escaped synth 3.5), I used the "classic" clone tank – similar to the one found in the lab with the super mutants (such tanks already existed in Fallout 3).

[South8028]

1 hour ago, Miauzi said:

 

When you "visit" the institute for the first time as a player, "Father" sends you on a sort of "introduction tour"... you're supposed to get acquainted with all the department heads, so to speak.

One of these department heads says something remarkable - he speaks of a "original sin"... because the goal of recovering the pure genetic material was to IMPROVE humanity.

The Synth 3.0 isn't just a human clone - it's an improved human... it's more resilient, stronger, smarter, etc. ... and I'm not even talking about the "Runner" model - which is significantly superior to the "normal" Synth.

And this improved human is kept as a slave and further degraded to the level of a biological machine!

 

How the synth's body is actually created – ultimately, there's only speculation about that... I think what I see in the game is a good show piece – and it would fit quite well in a "Westworld" scenario.

Just the speed with which the synths are "assembled" – there should already be tens of thousands after 2-3 months.

 

For my own blog story (my character is an escaped synth 3.5), I used the "classic" clone tank – similar to the one found in the lab with the super mutants (such tanks already existed in Fallout 3).

Somewhere in one of the institute's terminals there is a description of the creation of a 3rd generation synth. So it's not a guess, but direct game lore. Probably not an improved human, but genetically adapted to the needs of the Institute. The synth has beneficial modifications that the Institute needs so that it can do its job well, and disadvantages that the Institute also needs for control.Also, someone on the nexus recently gave an example that the synth component is used by the Institute not only for control, but also for direct personality reprogramming. The Institute can erase and replace the personality of synths in the field.

[Miauzi]

Vor 6 Stunden sagte South8028:

Irgendwo in einem der Terminals des Instituts findet sich eine Beschreibung der Erschaffung eines Synths der dritten Generation. Es handelt sich also nicht um eine Vermutung, sondern um direkte Spielgeschichte. Wahrscheinlich kein verbesserter Mensch, sondern genetisch an die Bedürfnisse des Instituts angepasst. Der Synth verfügt über vorteilhafte Modifikationen, die das Institut benötigt, um seine Arbeit gut erledigen zu können, und Nachteile, die das Institut ebenfalls zur Kontrolle benötigt. Außerdem hat jemand im Nexus kürzlich ein Beispiel dafür gegeben, dass die Synth-Komponente vom Institut nicht nur zur Kontrolle, sondern auch zur direkten Persönlichkeitsumprogrammierung genutzt wird. Das Institut kann die Persönlichkeit von Synths im Feld löschen und ersetzen.

 

The conversation with the department head is also part of the game's story... Furthermore, synths in the game, for example, have a higher radiation resistance - which is how you can identify a synth among your settlers (in VATS mode).

Go to the Yellow Sea with a companion and see who isn't complaining about the effects of the radiation... and you'll find that Curie (in her synth body) is among them!

 

Hardly anyone disputes the fact that the synth component most likely contains the blocking code - which you use, for example, in the "Retrieval" quest with the Runner.

The deletion and "reprogramming" of the personality, however, takes place in the Institute (SEB Department)... the device (a special chair) can even be viewed on your tour through the departments.

 

The game developer, for whatever reason, has unfortunately left a lot of things unclear, which leaves plenty of room for speculation... in fact, EVERY player has their own version of the Institute in mind.

I'm using this as a creative space for my story.

[nmagod]

23 hours ago, Miauzi said:

 

Well, how does an "enclave" actually fit into the 4th game???

 

unfortunately, they seem to be included in the NG update by default? at least on PS4, because I sure as hell did NOT go into the creation club to get ANYTHING

 

and the pre-NG creation club item (the hellfire armor one) is genuinely not that good, on top of the quest stages being bugged to FUCK

[Miauzi]

Vor 18 Minuten sagte nmagod:

 

leider scheinen sie standardmäßig im NG-Update enthalten zu sein? Zumindest auf PS4, denn ich bin ganz sicher NICHT in den Creation Club gegangen, um IRGENDETWAS zu bekommen

 

und der Gegenstand des Pre-NG Creation Clubs (die Höllenfeuerrüstung) ist wirklich nicht so gut, zusätzlich zu den Queststufen, die verdammt verbuggt sind

 

That's my main criticism of the NG version – like in the AE version of Skyrim, they simply reactivate "old" content... and they do it so poorly that it's a real nuisance.

 

I upgraded from my 1.5.97 version of Skyrim to 1.6.1170 two months ago – which includes a trip to the "Shivering Isles."

Fortunately, I only made the upgrade now – so I was spared the abysmally terrible original CC implementation.

Mod authors have done a thorough overhaul... I was then able to read about the improvements in the forum posts.

 

Such excursions might still work in the world of TES... but only in "Fallout 4"???

 

I already had my doubts about the mod "Outcasts and Remnants" – which adds an Enclave bunker on the edge of the "Yellow Sea."

The idea of turning "Preston" into an undercover Enclave agent – who is now targeted at you as the player -> to secretly infiltrate Enclave fighters through the militia structure... actually made sense!

But the game developer itself completely lacks this intelligence... and the abundance of bugs makes the whole thing a complete disaster once again.

[nmagod]

I thought the baseball grenades were funny, and a nailgun is a neat idea, but they should absolutely never force content on players like that

 

to conclude: Bethesda is The Institute

[Count Chocula]

21 hours ago, Miauzi said:

I already had my doubts about the mod "Outcasts and Remnants" – which adds an Enclave bunker on the edge of the "Yellow Sea."

The idea of turning "Preston" into an undercover Enclave agent – who is now targeted at you as the player -> to secretly infiltrate Enclave fighters through the militia structure... actually made sense!

But the game developer itself completely lacks this intelligence... and the abundance of bugs makes the whole thing a complete disaster once again.

Regarding the Enclave, in the mod Depravity, the implications are that 1) the Gunners, not the Institute and not the BoS, are the biggest threat to the security of the Commonwealth and 2) the Gunners are getting all their high-end gear from the Enclave. I can't recall if a reason for the Enclave to do this is given.

 

Despite his penchant for silliness and breaking the fourth wall, Thuggysmurf  does a decent job of making the existing lore fit into something that makes sense. Like, as I just mentioned, an explanation for how the Gunners got such good gear (and why the Gunners are not just "raiders with better armor"). Depravity and OAR both do a better job than NG  of making the Enclave into a bunch of enemies to fight (no surprise) and America Rising 2 gives a full-on Enclave story (also no surprise). 

[South8028]

16 hours ago, Count Chocula said:

Regarding the Enclave, in the mod Depravity, the implications are that 1) the Gunners, not the Institute and not the BoS, are the biggest threat to the security of the Commonwealth and 2) the Gunners are getting all their high-end gear from the Enclave. I can't recall if a reason for the Enclave to do this is given.

 

Despite his penchant for silliness and breaking the fourth wall, Thuggysmurf  does a decent job of making the existing lore fit into something that makes sense. Like, as I just mentioned, an explanation for how the Gunners got such good gear (and why the Gunners are not just "raiders with better armor"). Depravity and OAR both do a better job than NG  of making the Enclave into a bunch of enemies to fight (no surprise) and America Rising 2 gives a full-on Enclave story (also no surprise). 

All indications are that The Gunners are what came out of the vault 75 experiment. That's the main theory. That's why they're locally concentrated in Boston. That's where they came from and that's where they live. They're a local Boston military faction with no ties to anyone outside the Commonwealth.bgs officially destroyed the enclave, in order, as they said, to give space to new, more interesting factions.The game has spontaneous situations, mini-quests, demonstrating that an important part of the Ganners' life is plundering all sorts of military warehouses, bases, arsenals. All their weapons and armor are pure looting.

[Count Chocula]

3 hours ago, South8028 said:

All indications are that The Gunners are what came out of the vault 75 experiment. That's the main theory. That's why they're locally concentrated in Boston. That's where they came from and that's where they live. They're a local Boston military faction with no ties to anyone outside the Commonwealth.bgs officially destroyed the enclave, in order, as they said, to give space to new, more interesting factions.The game has spontaneous situations, mini-quests, demonstrating that an important part of the Ganners' life is plundering all sorts of military warehouses, bases, arsenals. All their weapons and armor are pure looting.

I'm talking about a mod and you're talking about theories and ideas regarding Bethesda canon. Apples and things that are not apples. I'm not offering up Thuggysmurf's stories as anything other than what they are: stories he and his cohorts made up. To me, his stories make more sense than what I see in an unmodded game. Thuggysmurf's mods offer  a more  plausible, and more interesting, explanation than "pure looting" for why Gunners are so well-equipped. Anyone can loot. And based on what Gunner bases look like, they are no more disciplined than raiders. 

 

And now the Enclave is back, so it obviously has been un-destroyed.

[Miauzi]

Vor 3 Stunden sagte Graf Chocula:

Ich spreche von einem Mod, und du sprichst von Theorien und Ideen zum Bethesda-Kanon. Äpfel und Dinge, die keine Äpfel sind. Ich stelle Thuggysmurfs Geschichten nicht als etwas anderes dar, als das, was sie sind: Geschichten, die er und seine Kumpanen erfunden haben. Für mich ergeben seine Geschichten mehr Sinn als das, was ich in einem unmodifizierten Spiel sehe. Thuggysmurfs Mods bieten eine plausiblere und interessantere Erklärung als „reines Plündern“ dafür, warum Gunners so gut ausgerüstet sind. Jeder kann plündern. Und so wie Gunner-Basen aussehen, sind sie nicht disziplinierter als Raider. 

 

Und jetzt ist die Enklave zurück, sie wurde also offensichtlich nicht zerstört.

 

The Enclave on the west coast was not initially completely destroyed either – even though the player destroyed its headquarters (the oil rig) in "Fallout 2."

A well-known outpost ("Navarro") is NOT destroyed – even though the player can virtually kill any Enclave member.

 

Several things related to the Enclave follow from "Fallout NV."

- Larger parts of the (Western) Enclave have joined the NCR and form something like their own (political) "faction."

- Intact military installations are scattered throughout the area between the east and west coasts, some of which are used by scattered units (members).

-

From "Fallout 3," all that is known is that the Eastern Enclave lost its main organizational base (the Enclave bunker in Raven Rock) and its main military base (Adams Air Force Base)... but that doesn't mean it lost all of its facilities!

 

So, after the events of "Fallout 3" and "Fallout NV," the Enclave can no longer engage offensively as a military power in open battle or openly dominate territories.

What it can still do, however, is operate underground and utilize its technological capabilities.

 

And here we are again with the countless gaps in the official lore of "Fallout 4" -> the Gunners

 

Yes - the Gunners are "creatures" of a human breeding process based on social Darwinism... in which it was clear that they would one day wipe out their "creators" and controllers.

 

Decades later, they are the dominant paramilitary force in the Boston area - they have eliminated all competition... and possess weapons technology that puts them on par with the BoS or the Institute.

And looting simply isn't enough for this situation... because there were never things like "plasma rifles" to loot.

This nonsense about scattered power armor is the next flop for any lore since "Fallout 1."

 

So there's a big hole here.

Plus, the breeding facility in Vault 95 hasn't been in operation for decades, so at least the "lower" ranks have long since been filled with "normal" wastelanders.

 

So relying solely on the repeatedly rewritten lore of the vanilla game is on very thin ice... you should use your own brain and realize that with the accumulated contradictions, it's no longer of any use!

 

And that's exactly what intelligent mod authors have recognized... they not only provide better explanations for the events taking place in the Fallout world... they also approach the whole thing with a large dose of "dark humor"!

[South8028]

Oh, if you reject all the official lore and turn on your brain, then the entire world of Fallout is nonsense. All these factions and organizations have no logical purpose for existence, and even corporations, instead of bringing profit, directed all their assets to self-destruction and ridiculous experiments.The Enclave is just evil because the Enclave is evil. As evil should be. The Institute is evil because evil synthetics are a sweet thing. VaultTec was clearly founded by aliens to destroy humanity and study human behavior in underground vault labs. 😁 In fact, I can't take this lore seriously at all. It's satire and banter. Bethesda was just having fun and making up funny things to make it fun to play.

[Count Chocula]

11 hours ago, South8028 said:

Oh, if you reject all the official lore and turn on your brain, then the entire world of Fallout is nonsense. All these factions and organizations have no logical purpose for existence, and even corporations, instead of bringing profit, directed all their assets to self-destruction and ridiculous experiments.The Enclave is just evil because the Enclave is evil. As evil should be. The Institute is evil because evil synthetics are a sweet thing. VaultTec was clearly founded by aliens to destroy humanity and study human behavior in underground vault labs. 😁 In fact, I can't take this lore seriously at all. It's satire and banter. Bethesda was just having fun and making up funny things to make it fun to play.

There are two ways to answer questions about video game lore. One, we can engage in nerdy discussions about how it would actually work if it were real and try to come up with explanations for all the seeming and actual inconsistencies or two we can say "It's a game thing." Sometimes the only explanation that works is "It's a game thing" (e.g., why do almost all of the Sole Survivor's companions complain and/or make snide comments when the Sole Survivor picks up clearly valuable scrap such as aluminum?). But "It's a game thing" does not lead to any kind of interesting discussion.

 

And my comments about Thuggysmurf's mods and their explanation for the Gunners is meant solely as "These are interesting stories and make much more of the topic, the topic being the Gunners being so well-equipped, than the unmodded game does." No one is saying Thuggysmurf has tapped into secret Fallout lore Bethesda itself missed. We can say the same about America Rising 2, in which I believe we have the option of having our protagonist join the Enclave. Not possible in an unmodded game, it would be a very plausible option if the game were a tabletop RPG run by a human gamemaster. Therefore a very plausible option for a mod author to add, along the lines of what @Miauzi alluded to. And that's how  I view events and circumstances in a computer game: how plausible would they be and how likely would I be to use them in a game if I were running this as a tabletop RPG?

Edited July 15, 2025 by Count Chocula

[Miauzi]

Vor 5 Stunden sagte South8028:

Oh, wenn man die offizielle Überlieferung ablehnt und sein Gehirn einschaltet, dann ist die ganze Welt von Fallout Unsinn. All diese Fraktionen und Organisationen haben keinen logischen Daseinszweck, und selbst Konzerne haben, anstatt Profit zu machen, ihr gesamtes Vermögen in Selbstzerstörung und absurde Experimente gesteckt. Die Enklave ist einfach böse, weil die Enklave böse ist. So wie es böse sein soll. Das Institut ist böse, weil böse Synthetik eine tolle Sache ist. VaultTec wurde eindeutig von Außerirdischen gegründet, um die Menschheit zu vernichten und menschliches Verhalten in unterirdischen Tresorlaboren zu studieren. 😁 Eigentlich kann ich diese Überlieferung überhaupt nicht ernst nehmen. Es ist Satire und Geplänkel. Bethesda hatte einfach nur Spaß und hat sich lustige Dinge ausgedacht, um das Spielen unterhaltsam zu machen.

 

Reject?

Why do I have to "blindly and faithfully" follow a lore story -> which is now incomplete, contradictory, and bad?

That's precisely the crux of the matter - even the construct of a religion shouldn't massively contradict itself internally or have major logical holes.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether an entertainment construct is a novel, a film, or a computer/video game... what matters is that the internal logic of the created world is intact... otherwise, you quickly end up with "trash."

 

So what did "Bugdesta" do with the "lore" - which they acquired through the studio purchase? -> ultimately garbage... because since they have no creative ideas of their own - they shred the "lore" of this series, beloved by Fallout fans.

 

Satire or fun? -> that's now provided by the mod authors - but not by the actual game developer for a long time.