Why are mods game version dependent?

[zhayan13]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I've never run across this topic before. Why  are so many mods game version dependent, and yet there are plenty of others which are not? I suspect it's simply the way BGS structures mod creation, but having spent the last 8-ish years wondering about it, this is my first time actually asking.  I'm an older gamer (mid 60s), with virtually zero knowledge of crafting/modding/computers and it's always seemed weird to me from my outside-looking-in perspective that this should not be a requirement barring the occasional changes to the game which would cause conflict with various mods. This being asked, do most of the updates from version 1 to version 2 etc, simply require a change to a line or two of the code, or is it much more involved? I really want to know. I think knowing this would lower frustration levels at long delays regarding mod updates. Thanks

[Varithina]

Because some mods directly inject into the exe file, to affect a specific thing, with changes to the exe file those changes may no longer affect the thing they are supposed to affect, which can lead to some very odd things happening in game, or the game simply not running until those mods are updated.

[HentaiGnome]

It actually depends on the mod. Mods that change visual aspects like character models, clothes and outfits, and environmental scenery tend to change only the meshes and textures so they're typically not version-dependent (unless for whatever reason the game devs changed their file or format structure post-release, which is a rare thing to do). Script mods on the other hand typically inject directly into the exe file and so THOSE are usually version-dependent. A lot of times the reason why mods break for Skyrim, Fallout, and Starfield is because those mods are dependent on the Script Extender framework, which itself is dependent on the version of the base game. As a side rant, it irks me that people are quick to blame Bethesda when this happens when in reality the blame should go to the mod authors who a) rely on Script Extender, and b) are not quick to update their own mods after Script Extender updates theirs.

Edited October 10, 2024 by HentaiGnome

[davisev5225]

1 hour ago, HentaiGnome said:

As a side rant, it irks me that people are quick to blame Bethesda when this happens when in reality the blame should go to the mod authors who a) rely on Script Extender, and b) are not quick to update their own mods after Script Extender updates theirs.

 

This statement bothers me for several reasons:

1. It IS Bethesda's fault, but it's not really deliberate - it's just a side-effect of how compiling code into an executable works.  If you change the code, the compiled executable will be different (obviously), but what isn't so obvious if you don't program code is that the compiled memory addresses will change too.  That means any DLL, injector, etc. that relies on mapped memory functions has to be updated to match.
2. It's not mod authors' fault that memory addresses get changed.  They just have to deal with it.
3. The various Script Extenders are the reason we get mods that integrate so well into the game and bring so much functionality to the table.  Do you want modding to go back to simple model and texture swaps only?  Bethesda is ahead of the curve with the Creation Kit, but its functions are still somewhat limiting without SKSE / F4SE / SFSE / etc.
4. Unless you have specifically paid them for timely updates, mod authors owe you and the community at large NOTHING.  If they don't update their mod, or take a long time to update their mod, that's entirely their prerogative.  Remember, they are doing something FOR FREE because they WANT TO, not because it's their paid job.

[EgoBallistic]

In general for Beth games (Skyrim, Fallout 4, etc) the main reason would be script extender incompatibility.  Script extenders (and xSE mods in general) rely on accessing functions and data in the game engine itself.  When Bethesda modifies the game engine, some or all of these functions and data are moved to different locations, so it takes time for the authors of those xSE mods to update their mods with the new addresses.

 

With Starfield, the problem is compounded by the fact that there are SO many bugs and missing features that Bethesda is making significant changes outside of the executable, which can break mods in other ways.  Some Starfield updates have changed the way texture, mesh, morph, and material files are handled, which means mods that used those types of files had to be repackaged or rebuilt completely.  They also updated the Point of Interest generation system, which broke mods that added POIs until those were patched.  Etc.

 

2 hours ago, HentaiGnome said:

As a side rant, it irks me that people are quick to blame Bethesda when this happens when in reality the blame should go to the mod authors who a) rely on Script Extender, and b) are not quick to update their own mods after Script Extender updates theirs.

 

That's just a terribly uninformed and entitled take.  Mod authors are free to use whatever tools they want to make their mods, and they certainly don't owe you prompt updates after Bethesda updates the game.  Also, there are plenty of ways to keep the game from updating and/or to roll back game updates, so you can take steps to ensure your mods keep working until they are updated.

[HentaiGnome]

@davisev5225 and @EgoBallistic

 

I admit my comment came off as a bad take, but what I really meant to say was that people need to understand why mods break and that they should just accept that it's the nature of the beast instead of complaining at the developers that made the games in the first place. 

[elsaeraser]

I would partially blame Bethesda for this, as it wouldn't necessarily have to be this way. They could use an robust extendable script system where scripts call each other over defined interfaces and the game logic is provided in uncompiled scripts. I don't really think that should be mandatory for any developer though, as it might increase complexity depending on the way it is done and there are other reasons someone could chose not to do this.

[HentaiGnome]

8 minutes ago, elsaeraser said:

I would partially blame Bethesda for this, as it wouldn't necessarily have to be this way. They could use an robust extendable script system where scripts call each other over defined interfaces and the game logic is provided in uncompiled scripts. I don't really think that should be mandatory for any developer though, as it might increase complexity depending on the way it is done and there are other reasons someone could chose not to do this.

 

Official game developers are certainly not obligated to make their games this way especially if it adds complexity that takes away time and money when they're already on tight budgets and schedules. The responsibility when it comes to modding ALWAYS falls on the mod authors and users. Blaming it on official game devs for not supporting unofficial things like mods is bordering on self-entitlement.

[elsaeraser]

Agreed, but in Bethesdas case, I would argue it would be in their best interest. People still play Skyrim for the mods and Starfield desperately needs mods to broaden it's appeal.

I really hope Elder Scrolls 6 will be easy to mod, as it seems to me that Bethesda doesn't understand it's core audience very well.

[HentaiGnome]

I agree that it would be in their best interests, but I don't think it's entirely fair to say they don't understand their core audience. For one thing, they released the Creation Kit for us to mod their games, which they certainly had no obligation to do so. Secondly, they came out with the Creation Club, which you can say all you want about it but it just further proves that they do understand that mods have become an integral aspect to their games. My assumption is that making their games in such a way that mods are no longer version dependent is either a) a technical limitation, and/or b) just straight up complex. Simply put, if it was easy they would've already done it. Heck, ALL game developers would've already done it.

[EgoBallistic]

This is a silly discussion.  Every Bethesda game goes through this early in its lifecycle.  There were similar "mod-breaking" problems with Skyrim, Fallout 4, Skyrim SE, etc.  Every time, there was wailing and gnashing of teeth and predictions that This Is The End Of Modding, and tons of entitled hate spewed on Bethesda and on mod authors.  And also every time, the game finally settled down and game updates became much less disruptive.

 

The fact is, Bethesda's obligation is to make the game work.  Supporting mods is important but secondary, since the vast majority of players don't use mods at all.

[zhayan13]

To all those who responded, I send a huge Thank You! You have given me a much better understanding of what is going on vis-a-vis modding and it's various requirements, and it now makes much more sense. As I said in my original post, I have zero knowledge about modding, but you have managed to increase that to maybe .0001% for me, and I will never be angry about delayed mod updates again! that's a promise

 

And realizing that the responses to my question came almost exclusively from modders, I will ad another huge Thank You for the work you do and the vision you have! 😮