What do you think did Bethesda learn from the Modding community to give back to it?

[Mister X]

I mainly can compare to Skyrim, as I never really got into modding FO4, but here's what I mean:

 

One big thing, if not the biggest, is Papyrus / the general scripting language (however they'll call it for Starfield). For Skyrim, SKSE basically is essential, and for some things even stuff like po3's Papyrus Extender additionally is needed to get things to work.

Do you think they did learn from those resources and will add more native scripting functions right from the start?

 

I've heard there's an option to directly add new animations with the CK for FO4, is that true?

If so, do you think they've expanded/optimized this feature for Starfield, given their new animation engine?

 

I'm not so much into other functionality, but do you think they were able to optimize certain modding aspects, like branching quests?

What would like to see getting optimized when it comes to mod creation? Do you believe (I don't ^^) they'll directly provide a native API to hook into, like SKSE does it for Skyrim with DLL files?

 

Of course, bugfixing is a thing on its own, so let's just hope they had enough time for proper/sufficient quality assurance.

[Seijin8]

What they learned as a business is that half-assed products shipped to this community will be repaired by us for no cost.

 

The one big black mark on this is FO76 which isn't really moddable because it is multiplayer.  So if you see that Bethesda leans away from multiplayer, you know they want us to fix things for them again and we shouldn't expect higher quality products.

[Miauzi]

Vor 16 Minuten sagte Seijin8:

Was sie als Unternehmen gelernt haben , ist, dass halbherzige Produkte, die an diese Community verschickt werden, von uns kostenlos repariert werden .

 

Der einzige große schwarze Fleck dabei ist FO76, das nicht wirklich modifizierbar ist, da es sich um ein Multiplayer-Spiel handelt. Wenn Sie also sehen, dass Bethesda sich vom Mehrspielermodus abwendet, wissen Sie, dass sie wollen, dass wir die Dinge wieder für sie reparieren, und dass wir keine qualitativ hochwertigeren Produkte erwarten sollten.

 

TES-Online was already a bug-festival and a festival of broken promises on the part of this company ... I don't care if it said "zenimax" on the outside.

You couldn't modify anything - which is fine for a multi-player game - but fixing bugs was a disaster.

So here, too, the main task of the modders for the first few years will be to find out what is broken and how to "fix" or "work around" it - before they can even think about creating new things.

Of course there will be many authors - who ignore this at first ... and then wonder why their keations work for themselves but not for many other users.

So it will all repeat itself ... because in the aggregate people have NO learning curve.

[Mister X]

I saw those comments coming ^^ That's why I've given examples of what I mean. I'm with you, probably the game will be a buggy mess in the beginning, like all Beth games, and will need a whole bunch of updates and bugfixing mods to get rid of most of them.

 

Still, that wasn't my point. I wanted to emphasize more the creation side: what do you think will be given at hand to create those bugfixing mods?

What new tools will be there? What expansion will the CK get, considering SKSE, all those Papyrus extenders and other third party tools like xEdit?

 

Or, shorter: what did they see, find and learn in the mod creation community that they might provide themselves now for Starfield?

[Seijin8]

16 minutes ago, Mister X said:

what did they see, find and learn in the mod creation community that they might provide themselves now for Starfield?

 

As I said:  They learned they don't need to spend development time or resources on providing things.  We'll do it ourselves.

 

To make this clearer:  what have they ever provided?  CK.  That's it.  An incredibly buggy system that doesn't even work out of the box -- it has to be ini modified to function.  Were Beth unclear that multiple masters would be a requirement for modding?  They knew.  They just didn't bother fixing it.  Every single mod with more than one master created by the community using the Creation Kit had to be user-adjusted to generate the most basic of usable functions (loading/saving).

 

So what are we going to get to work with Starfield?  Creation Kit 2 (someday) for adjusting their great big brand new Creation Engine 2... which appears to be virtually identical to the old system.  Aside from the space vehicular stuff, nothing has been shown that demonstrates progression beyond what the CK already provided.

 

In theory the new animation system is node-targeted to accomodate positional differences based on the weight/muscle/slim chargen system.  Maybe that will be useful if animators can tap into that to target nodes on other skeletal rigs.  Maybe.  But the CK has never had animation creation options; those have always come from 3rd parties.  It would be foolish to expect CK2 to have that.

Don't get your hopes up.  If a great new modding opportunity arises, it'll be because of people like Ashal/Meh321, Fores, the SKSE team, Elminster and the xEdit team, etc etc to name a tiny fraction of the people trying to make this whole thing work.  Not only is Bethesda not going to be of much help, we're all better off with them dumping it and backing away so the community can get to work repairing it without their meddling.

 

Beth doesn't deliver complete game experiences.  They dump the smoldering, half-baked and nearly-dead body of their latest project into the triage unit and wipe their hands of it until DLC time.  They only ever show up again to try to sell us something in a manner that is laughable and risks damaging the prior hard work the community lent to making their "masterpieces" work at all.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Seijin8

[spoonsinger]

With regards to O/P question.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout3/mods/7070?tab=posts

[Miauzi]

Vor 1 Stunde sagte Mister X:

Oder kürzer: Was haben sie in der Mod-Erstellungs-Community gesehen, gefunden und gelernt, was sie jetzt für Starfield bereitstellen könnten?

 

they have learned one thing -> they can just continue their business style without any consequences

they can continue to sell massively buggy games to us gamers at insane prices - and the lemmings are already ready to buy this crap

because these lemmings don't expect the manufacturer to fix the thousands of bugs - but their own kind - i.e. that other buyers of the program do the UNPAID work - to fix these bugs

with completely unsuitable tools - which are so generously provided.

Sorry - I'm really fed up ... the average stupidity of the player-buyers is still well below the general average of mankind.

 

[Kif_kroker]

they learned nothing and dont care to learn anything from the mod community. i guess a cynic answer would be, they learned to leave the mod community alone. they would love to find a way to extort money with all the mods tho 

[dagobaking]

On 7/25/2023 at 1:10 AM, Mister X said:

I've heard there's an option to directly add new animations with the CK for FO4, is that true?

If so, do you think they've expanded/optimized this feature for Starfield, given their new animation engine?

 

Yes. That is true. You need FNIS for Skyrim to add animations. But, with FO4 you can just add them into an esp via the CK.

 

I can only guess. There are a lot of factors involved: Bethesda's history of adding the public version of the CK as an afterthought with few improvements. Microsoft maybe having a different approach/philosophy to modding.

 

I have a speculative, self-serving theory: Starfield was way behind schedule when Microsoft acquired Bethesda. But, they intend to salvage the title by making it more mod friendly than previous releases. So, like a pretty open-world sandbox with relatively light main-quest work.

[Platinphoenixx]

On 8/2/2023 at 10:00 AM, dagobaking said:

So, like a pretty open-world sandbox with relatively light main-quest work

Sounds like Skyrim to me ^^

[Vader666]

On 7/25/2023 at 12:11 PM, Seijin8 said:

to expect CK2 to have that.

 

Why do people refer to Starfield CK as CK2 ?

Creationkit 2.0 was released in 2016 for Fallout 4...

 

[fred200]

Bethesda learned they can make a ton of money from sponsored mods.

And the Creation Club was born!

I still half expect Bethesda to only support Creation Club mods on Starfield, with free mods blocked.

[Darkening Demise]

I fear how badly Starfield's Creation Club will be. There's signs of Skyrim getting a marketplace alongside Fallout 4 with a 'next gen upgrade' 'coming'.

I 'bought' Creation Club content for FO4 and all of it sucked. A lot of it was so low effort that I could find better shit posts on a subreddit.

[-Player1-]

Doesn't matter what we think they've learned.
Even Todd surely understood that their games rise and fall with modding.
Always was, always will be.

 

They know that nobody liked the creation club and that most hated the overpriced fo76 shop.
If they just put said 2 things together and not overdo pricings and not have the shop break things like skse or in starfield's case.. stse?..

every friggn time so that modders can do their thing in peace... We're golden.

[sila]

On 7/25/2023 at 6:30 AM, spoonsinger said:

With regards to O/P question.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout3/mods/7070?tab=posts

They copied build your own home mod with hearthfires too.

[Vinamael]

They learned the general modding community won't accept Creation Club.  However, the Game Pass community might be more willing to embrace it.  Since they'll lose sales to Game Pass, they might be aiming the Creation Club revamp towards the GP community.

[Seijin8]

On 8/5/2023 at 10:19 AM, Vader666 said:

 

Why do people refer to Starfield CK as CK2 ?

Creationkit 2.0 was released in 2016 for Fallout 4...

 

 

Because Starfield will be the first game on the Creation Engine 2.  I've never used the CK for Fallout, so was unaware of the versioning.

[Trykz]

Since Bethesda is now under Microsoft's banner, and knowing how Microsoft likes to milk everything for every dollar they can, I'd assume

that the claim that Starfield "will be even more modder friendly" than previous Bethesda titles may carry a lot of legitimacy. Skyrim has set

a seemingly insurmountable hurdle for Starfield given it's extensive moddability.

 

I'm reasonably certain that Bethesda knows that their games "create" new modders nearly every day. Especially where Skyrim is concerned.

Microsoft most certainly acknowledges that, and will be expecting Starfield to perform at least "on par" with the single most moddable game

out there.

 

Now I make NO CLAIMS that Bethesda or Microsoft will allow "total access" to all of the tools necessary to create whatever modders want.

But, I'd feel safe wagering that they'll come a lot closer than we've ever seen before.

 

Either way, we'll see in a month.

 

Trykz

[Akaiku]

maybe they will build in a modlist manager that automatically looks for updates and supports sharing?

[HeathenSunrise]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:48 AM, Miauzi said:

 

they have learned one thing -> they can just continue their business style without any consequences

they can continue to sell massively buggy games to us gamers at insane prices - and the lemmings are already ready to buy this crap

because these lemmings don't expect the manufacturer to fix the thousands of bugs - but their own kind - i.e. that other buyers of the program do the UNPAID work - to fix these bugs

with completely unsuitable tools - which are so generously provided.

Sorry - I'm really fed up ... the average stupidity of the player-buyers is still well below the general average of mankind.

 

Tough, suck it up.  There is NO ALTERNATIVE - so it's either don't play anything, or help out and fix things.  Yes it DOES suck that ALL Beth games are a buggy mess, but I don't see ANYONE else producing games like this.  NONE!  You would think other game studio's would be lining up their games to get in on that Skyrim type money, but they don't, which makes me think that maybe producing a moddable game like Skyrim, Oblivion, Fall Out etc. is INCREDIBLY difficult and often they have to ship a buggy mess to start making money or go bankrupt.  I doubt the developers like hearing all the whining about the bugs and would LOVE to spend and extra year or two polishing the game, but clearly they don't get the choice. 

 

My biggest concern is paid mods, I think they are going to lock down the modding and use it to squeeze money out of everyone.

[Miauzi]

Vor 2 Stunden sagte HeathenSunrise:

Hart, lass es sein. Es gibt KEINE ALTERNATIVE – also heißt es entweder nichts spielen oder mithelfen und die Dinge reparieren. Ja, es ist wirklich scheiße, dass ALLE Beth-Spiele ein fehlerhaftes Durcheinander sind, aber ich sehe niemanden, der solche Spiele produziert. KEINER! Man könnte meinen, dass andere Spielestudios ihre Spiele aufstellen würden, um an so viel Geld wie Skyrim zu kommen, aber das tun sie nicht, was mich denken lässt, dass es vielleicht UNGLAUBLICH schwierig ist, ein modifizierbares Spiel wie Skyrim, Oblivion, Fall Out usw. zu produzieren Oftmals müssen sie ein Chaos verschicken, um Geld zu verdienen, oder sie gehen bankrott. Ich bezweifle, dass es den Entwicklern gefällt, all das Gejammer über die Fehler zu hören, und dass sie GERNE ein oder zwei zusätzliche Jahre damit verbringen würden, das Spiel zu verbessern, aber offensichtlich haben sie keine Wahl. 

 

Meine größte Sorge sind kostenpflichtige Mods. Ich denke, sie werden das Modding sperren und es nutzen, um Geld aus allen herauszupressen.

 

Skyrim is now 12 years old and has had 2 "revisions".

So the "developers" have had plenty of time ... to iron out their mistakes. Has anything happened in all these years?

The bugs are ironed out by the players themselves and they talk about it PUBLICLY ... but not even this knowledge is incorporated into any OFFICIAL bug patch!

Alternatives?

I have in terms of "space" games

- modifiable -> Kerbal Space ... even with "real" physics and thus realistic trajectory manoeuvres

- not modifiable because multi-player -> Elite

 

---

I swore years ago after the bankruptcy of TES-Online -> as long as a "Todd Lügenbold" presents a game - I will never buy anything from that company again.

with Fallout 76 the disaster was foreseeable ... but enough people bought it (and then whined about what a piece of crap it is)

[Veniat]

On 8/18/2023 at 7:22 PM, Miauzi said:

 

Skyrim is now 12 years old and has had 2 "revisions".

So the "developers" have had plenty of time ... to iron out their mistakes. Has anything happened in all these years?

The bugs are ironed out by the players themselves and they talk about it PUBLICLY ... but not even this knowledge is incorporated into any OFFICIAL bug patch!

Alternatives?

I have in terms of "space" games

- modifiable -> Kerbal Space ... even with "real" physics and thus realistic trajectory manoeuvres

- not modifiable because multi-player -> Elite

 

---

I swore years ago after the bankruptcy of TES-Online -> as long as a "Todd Lügenbold" presents a game - I will never buy anything from that company again.

with Fallout 76 the disaster was foreseeable ... but enough people bought it (and then whined about what a piece of crap it is)

I actually still play ESO, the games still fun and pretty popular

I've never run into any game-breaking bugs, and most of the mods are all UI-based.  Even the structure of the game itself is unique compared to most other Bethesda games, you can't compare them.