Short status update

[prideslayer]

"Real" work on sexout should begin in earnest again shortly, and I wanted to write a quick note to everyone about my current status, plans, and holdups, and also to solicit responses on some ideas I have kicking around.

 

First off, I should say I'm not "gone" again. Releases haven't been as prolific as I'd like, but I'm trying to keep on top of the bugs while finding time for features both imagined and promised in sexout and the various mods I'm maintaining. A short list of the top things on my TODO list are as follows.

 

Immediate Concerns

 

- Long overdue NX update. I'm having some issues in my working copy right now that I'm not sure how to solve. This is primarily what's holding up core sexout releases and a few other things. I'm fairly certain the issues *can* be solved, so I'm not abandoning the feature(s) just yet. This project itself is temporarily on hold while I evaluate the new NVSE beta -- only source is available right now, so don't go looking for a download, but NVSE v4 beta is coming "soon." This should help out a bit with NX.

 

- SSR issues, Sexout core update. I'm going to take a close look at the currently SSR-enabled mods and more closely at those that are in use/popular but have not been updated. I haven't heard anything from Hal about his progress with pregnancy being switched to SSR, so I may undertake some small part of this myself. At present, much of what pregnancy needs to work is in SCR. A fair amount of that belongs just in pregnancy, given that it's a master other mods can be built on, but some of it I think I may take a stab at putting in Sexout.

 

This would definitely not include body/clothing swapping, but I'm thinking things like sperm tracking, a master pregnancy on/off flag in MCM, and a few other things might best be put in sexout itself. This would require sexout do some sort of male orgasm tracking, as well as more closely track different kinds of sex that are currently all lumped together. Some of these stats have been requested anyway so if I'm going to add them, putting them to use may not be a bad idea.

 

I also am going to try and build up a list of all the popular mods still in use by many people, but not migrated to SSR. If they aren't pregnancy dependent, the migration to SSR should not actually be very difficult. There should be no real problems using SSR and SCR together, other than tracking/status being duplicated and unknown between mods, but still I'd like as many players moved off of SCR as I can get. SSR itself can't grow until this is accomplished.

 

- Tryouts needs a bit more love. I know many people are disappointed that motorrunner and epstein aren't working right, and I believe there are some PG/goodsprings issues as well. The first two are some of my more favorite parts of tryouts, so they will be getting the initial focus there.

 

 

Future Plans

Sexout V3, V4 and V5 are, as ever, on my mind. My goal is for V3 to introduce a much more "NXified" interface and have it loudly deprecate all previous interfaces. The new NVSE should help here, as it is supposed to be introducing actual function calls (replaces spells) and arrays (replacing NX EVF's and/or formlists, potentially). The result, V4.x of sexout, would be much like the V2 change. The old interfaces would remain (but cry, loudly, in console etc when used), and the new interface (to carry over to V5) would be fleshed out. Once the V5 interface is solid in V4, V5 and V4 would be released simultaneously, with V5 being a complete rewrite of sexout, preserving the new interface.

 

This should be possible to do since, hopefully, the new version of NVSE will mean I need to preserve few, if any, sexout specific REFid's between sexout releases. A world where sexout defines a "SexoutBegin" NVSE function rather than a spell, and all variables are set and read through NVSE or NX, is a world where sexout REFid's are no longer used in mods. In the extreme case, sexout mods would not even need to have sexout ESM as a master. Players will probably not really grasp what this means, but experienced or semi-experienced modders should.

 

I may just be blowing smoke here. I have not looked at the new NVSE source close enough to see if it's going to support anything like this, but I'm hopeful.

 

Personal TLDR

 

 

I moved again a few weeks ago. Short version for those that haven't heard, in the spring I was buying a house. During this process, the landlord of the house I was renting tried to raise the rent by almost 30%, so I told him to take a hike and moved into an apartment. Financing for the house fell through and so I started (slowly) moving things out of my storage unit and into my apartment. A few weeks back I got a lead on a new house for rent for about the same price as the apartment, so I took it and moved again. About three weeks ago I was moving things back into my storage unit, and last weekend I finally got everything out of there and into the new house.

 

Everything is moved in now, though I'm not quite done unpacking and setting up. My neighbor (who found the house for me) is a good friend and often bribes me into working in his garage for beer and/or dinner, and I'm a bit stressed at present due to not knowing if I have to pay some/all of the rent for the apartment next month since I didn't give the full 30 days notice.

 

Within the next week or two, and hopefully starting this weekend, I should have a lot more time to devote to my duties here at LL. Thanks for bearing with me!

 

 

[Ark of Truth]

That's short?

 

Glad things worked out in the end

[Halstrom]

Well actually, I've been pretty busy in the time I've had I've moved a little more Pregnancy over and moved STD's out of SCR into their own beta esp and am just about done with the beta moving the Drugs out into their own esp using the NX system before I get into moving out the damaged clothing swapping next into it's own esp. To get the damaged clothing swapping to play nice, I'm looking at a complete rewrite of the Pregnancy bodyswapping system as the GECK scripts have reached their limits in size.

 

The big dependency on Pregnancy is Breeder which is huge, probably the biggest mod for Sexout and I have to be careful with changes so I don't break it and create a crap load of work for User29.

 

The Sperm/Cum texture/faction stuff was going to be next, and if you handle the sperm/orgasm stuff & the cum texture in Sexout that would be great and probably simplify a lot of things one of my next moves from SCR to Pregnancy was the faction stuff but it needs to be dependant on the sperm stuff

 

But that depends do people not using pregnancy want the ability for creatures to accept them into their pack after sex? Maybe orgasm/sperm stuff should be a separate esp/esm with it's own MCM and toggles for virility, impotence etc.

 

Also if you can fix that GECK crash & game shutdown crash which I think was related to a couple of the animations Astymma added would be great too.

[DoctaSax]

Some of that also borders on Lust's arousal/orgasm functionality, so keep me in the loop. Same goes for any upcoming changes to those nx vars that only Lust seems to use (Sexout:Core).

 

Hal's indeed been quite busy separating stuff - I hear there's a bit of a holdup regarding drugs with some dependent mods though.

 

I'm hoping we can eventually get back to just the one general resource mod, whatever it's called. Keeping separate versions of our mods for both is a drag and it confuses the crap out of players. Liking the suggestion that SSR would be open to growth.

 

 

[Halstrom]

It's only BrutalRapers & Store, Zippy has updated store to use formlists I can add the new drugs to, so that will solve that one, for BrutalRapers I might have a crack at it later if no one else gets time though I prefer SexoutAssualt myself

Other than that I'm just waiting on a bit more feedback if there are any showstoppers before I release it to Stable.

[prideslayer]

That's short?

Well, you'd believe it if you heard what was rattling around in my head at the time. More plans than time by a wide margin, as always.

 

Well actually, I've been pretty busy in the time I've had I've moved a little more Pregnancy over and moved STD's out of SCR into their own beta esp and am just about done with the beta moving the Drugs out into their own esp using the NX system before I get into moving out the damaged clothing swapping next into it's own esp. To get the damaged clothing swapping to play nice, I'm looking at a complete rewrite of the Pregnancy bodyswapping system as the GECK scripts have reached their limits in size.

Good progress! The main thing with NX is communications between mods. If "everyone" agrees on the var names, then everything can check and update the vars without needing a million masters. Thew new NVSE might help you out here as well. RunScript looks good, also While and ForEach are coming, as are Call, Function, and SetFunctionValue. These are mostly from OBSE but allow you to create scripts that aren't attached to anything, and then call them from other scripts. It's certainly going to help Sexout a lot.

 

OBSE array vars are coming also. The ported stuff according to the readme is:

 

http://obse.silverlock.org/obse_command_doc.html#OBSE_Expressions

http://obse.silverlock.org/obse_command_doc.html#User_Defined_Functions

http://obse.silverlock.org/obse_command_doc.html#Array_Variables

 

The big dependency on Pregnancy is Breeder which is huge, probably the biggest mod for Sexout and I have to be careful with changes so I don't break it and create a crap load of work for User29.

I understand. Breeder is a big project and heavily uses existing SCR/Pregnancy features. If user29 needs help here, he knows where to find me.

 

The Sperm/Cum texture/faction stuff was going to be next, and if you handle the sperm/orgasm stuff & the cum texture in Sexout that would be great and probably simplify a lot of things one of my next moves from SCR to Pregnancy was the faction stuff but it needs to be dependant on the sperm stuff

I can probably do that. The tricky thing from my perspective is if Sexout is going to have the cum animation (and it currently does), it should probably handle orgasm tracking and sperm counts as well -- and that's a lot of coordination to do between Lust and Pregnancy. At the least, sexout would need to defer handing out sperm tokens and playing the animation if Lust (or some other mod) told it to do so.

 

But that depends do people not using pregnancy want the ability for creatures to accept them into their pack after sex? Maybe orgasm/sperm stuff should be a separate esp/esm with it's own MCM and toggles for virility, impotence etc.

That is my thought as well. If sperm is NX vars instead of token items or script vars, then any mod looking for those values will just get zeros if they haven't been set by some mod -- without requiring an orgasm esm as a master, and without crashing if it's not present.

 

Also if you can fix that GECK crash & game shutdown crash which I think was related to a couple of the animations Astymma added would be great too.

 

I forgot to mention it, but it's a high priority. It's as annoying for me as everyone else. I don't know if it came from astymma's animations or not for sure though. I need to go through all the old versions of NX and sexout and see for sure when it first appeared.

 

Some of that also borders on Lust's arousal/orgasm functionality, so keep me in the loop. Same goes for any upcoming changes to those nx vars that only Lust seems to use (Sexout:Core).

It does, but I think the current system (or rather, a similar new system) would work fine here. Sexout can handle it by default, and Lust can override that behavior. Lust is currently using post-sex callbacks right, and maybe overriding one script/spell? I think that system would work fine except rather than overriding the sexout ref(s), I add one or more NX vars that lust can turn on, that tell sexout to skip it's internal handling.

 

I'm hoping we can eventually get back to just the one general resource mod, whatever it's called. Keeping separate versions of our mods for both is a drag and it confuses the crap out of players. Liking the suggestion that SSR would be open to growth.

SSR is indeed open to growth, and I don't want anyone to have to maintain two versions. I need to run through and make a list of which current mods currently only support one or the other, and which support both. I have a gut feeling that most do support SSR now, so the list of SCR-only ones should be small. It basically boils down to anything relying on the Pregnancy ESM likely only has SCR support, but everything else either supports SSR or easily can.

[prideslayer]

Oh if you want to thank someone for the NVSE changes, thank jaam (again!).

[Swyke]

Thinking of the future plans for Sexout I have another stupid question: Are the clothing-formlists (as used for SCE and Check-me-out) in SexoutNG or in SCR/SSR? And will the vanilla clothes and armors still be classyfied in the formlists?

OK, not only a question ...

And - as I didn't look into SSR till now, because my mod needs currently SCE and Preg - are there any Clothing included in SSR?

An entire SCR-installation requires a huge bunch of external clothing-packs (mainly for the Preg-Body-Swapping with the "Maternity-Clothes-Pack").

I don't think that a future SSR or a "slim-SCR" should not include any clothing at all?

But as a mod-creator like me is not able to make own clothing or armors, and in my opinion it isn't usefull that every tiny mod gets it's own resource pack.

So wouldn't it be usefull and a great enhanchmet for a future slim and userfriendly sexout, to create/initiate something like an aditional "Sexout-Clothing-Pack" or some "Sexout-Common-Clothing-Resources"? Somethging similiar to "Spectrums-Toy-Pack", which - I think - is required for a lot of Sexout-Mods.

If it would be possible to collect some clothing - not to much clothing, clothing that is Lore-friendly, usefull for Sexout-related needs (realy sexy, classy, fetish etc.), clothing that fill the gaps in the vanilla clothings, and the possibilitys and offers of the clothing-formlisty - and most important: just clothing we have or could get the permission to put into this SCP/SCCR-pack, so the user hasn't to search the whole iNet for missing resources like for SCR now. This pack would need only a tiny ESP to add those clothing to the Clothing-Formlists, and some maternity/torn-versions clould be added easyly.

Or do you think, this should be matter of the modder and user?

 

[DoctaSax]

I can probably do that. The tricky thing from my perspective is if Sexout is going to have the cum animation (and it currently does), it should probably handle orgasm tracking and sperm counts as well -- and that's a lot of coordination to do between Lust and Pregnancy. At the least, sexout would need to defer handing out sperm tokens and playing the animation if Lust (or some other mod) told it to do so.

Main thing Lust does in that regard is override the timing of when orgasm happens, and decide whether orgasm happens at all depending on arousal buildup. All pregnancy should need to know is whether sperm was left. Makes perfect sense that sexout itself should be in the middle somewhere, or another mod that combines some sperm-related stuff like Hal mentions. (I would like to avoid breaking things up too much, however - I have a low plugin limit myself, for instance, and the more mods in the MCM menu the more that's likely to get messed up at some point too.)

 

It does, but I think the current system (or rather, a similar new system) would work fine here. Sexout can handle it by default, and Lust can override that behavior. Lust is currently using post-sex callbacks right, and maybe overriding one script/spell? I think that system would work fine except rather than overriding the sexout ref(s), I add one or more NX vars that lust can turn on, that tell sexout to skip it's internal handling.

Lust doesn't override any NG records anymore, and hasn't for a long time. It uses a start hook to cast arousal tracking on NPCs having sex, determined by those "Core:Partners" nx vars, and an end hook to clear some internal nx vars that I don't even see set anywhere, heh. The rest is just checking the FlagInUse & FlagDefaultTime with var04, really, although it also still looks up some tokens to determine position, rape etc. Not sure if there's a workable nx alternative for looking all that up atm. The only other dependency, aside from starting acts, is broadcasting player lust to the sexout.lust quest var so that the hud mods can pick it up, and those could be made dependent on Lust itself for that instead.

 

In the end, all Lust really needs from sexout is being able to know who's doing what to who in any given act (actors involved, position, sex type, give or take, rape or not), override the time an act is supposed to last unless the mod making the call overrides it too, finish it itself instead, and report back that an orgasm took place so that pregnancy & creature faction stuff etc can detect that.

 

Looking inside Lust now, I can imagine someone might think it'd be better to break it down & rebuild it from the ground up - there's some overhead that can be cut by treating the player as just another NPC, and splitting code off from quest/token scripts into more spell scripts that only fire when needed. But when I get my own install back up & running, finishing sofo will be my priority. In the meantime, I can adapt to whatever, even if it is just patchwork for the time being. (None of that's meant as a putdown to Chase, it's a lot easier imagining how it could be rebuilt than building it from scratch, obviously.)

[Halstrom]

The Sperm/Cum texture/faction stuff was going to be next, and if you handle the sperm/orgasm stuff & the cum texture in Sexout that would be great and probably simplify a lot of things one of my next moves from SCR to Pregnancy was the faction stuff but it needs to be dependant on the sperm stuff

I can probably do that. The tricky thing from my perspective is if Sexout is going to have the cum animation (and it currently does), it should probably handle orgasm tracking and sperm counts as well -- and that's a lot of coordination to do between Lust and Pregnancy. At the least, sexout would need to defer handing out sperm tokens and playing the animation if Lust (or some other mod) told it to do so.

 

But that depends do people not using pregnancy want the ability for creatures to accept them into their pack after sex? Maybe orgasm/sperm stuff should be a separate esp/esm with it's own MCM and toggles for virility, impotence etc.

That is my thought as well. If sperm is NX vars instead of token items or script vars, then any mod looking for those values will just get zeros if they haven't been set by some mod -- without requiring an orgasm esm as a master, and without crashing if it's not present.

 

Also if you can fix that GECK crash & game shutdown crash which I think was related to a couple of the animations Astymma added would be great too.

 

I forgot to mention it, but it's a high priority. It's as annoying for me as everyone else. I don't know if it came from astymma's animations or not for sure though. I need to go through all the old versions of NX and sexout and see for sure when it first appeared.

 

Some of that also borders on Lust's arousal/orgasm functionality, so keep me in the loop. Same goes for any upcoming changes to those nx vars that only Lust seems to use (Sexout:Core).

It does, but I think the current system (or rather, a similar new system) would work fine here. Sexout can handle it by default, and Lust can override that behavior. Lust is currently using post-sex callbacks right, and maybe overriding one script/spell? I think that system would work fine except rather than overriding the sexout ref(s), I add one or more NX vars that lust can turn on, that tell sexout to skip it's internal handling.

 

I've also started adding a script like this to all my stuff, it's probably handy idea for other modders

scn SexoutDrugS00NXVariablesUsed

; *** List of NXVariables used in Drug Scripts

;	rZActor.NX_GetEVFl "SOD:fLustOh" = Drug quantity in system 0-500 for duration clipped 0-100 for effect
;	rZActor.NX_GetEVFl "SOD:fSleepEz" = Drug quantity in system 0-500 for duration clipped 0-100 for effect
;	rZActor.NX_GetEVFl "SOD:fFertEz" = Drug quantity in system 0-500 for duration clipped 0-100 for effect
;	rZActor.NX_GetEVFl "SOD:fBunX" = Drug quantity in system 0-500 for duration clipped 0-100 for effect
;	rZActor.NX_GetEVFl "SOD:fBunAway" = Drug quantity in system 0-500 for duration clipped 0-100 for effect

I also use the standing cum animation for water breaking near birth too, so bear that in mind with the new cum system or just create a separate animation for it I can call. A better system of working out what type of sex would definitely be better, so for each actor we could know where the cum is anal, vaginal, oral is it in the mouth or facial for example for cum textures? Maybe even on the chest? For a while I've thought of a few cases where perhaps vaginal should be called genital or split into vaginal & penile? If the actor is wearing a diaphragm/female condom for example is there a separate count for external cum splatter and cum that actually makes it inside the womb?

 

A cum system as a separate esm would be a great thing and much needed for many mods besides Pregnancy I suspect, there's really no way I can drop SCR till that functionality is available to swap to or no point doing a lot of work moving stuff from SCR to Pregnancy breaking Breeder twice. And moving the functionality into Pregnancy would mean a lot of mods requiring Pregnancy as a master for people who didn't want Pregnancy just to get Orgasm effects. I'm probably going to have to create a PregnancyV4 for this project. And User29 will have to then create a Breeder to suit it, though I've also thought perhaps he's better splitting it into seperate esps for different episodes.

 

The only issue I see is that you need to do some fancy magic with quest scripts and formlists/arrays to actually track/fade the cum/semen/sperm on any actors without needing to add a scripted handling token to each actor using it which then means you need the mod with the tokens to be a master to mods reading it. Other modders then need to be able to access that system too from their mods bearing in mind there are many people modding who's scripting foo is weak and will never reach that of many of us with more GECK battle seasoning

 

I suspect the Orgasm esm really only needs to track cum & semen for the visuals, Pregnancy would calculate sperm count from the semen & fertility settings.

 

All Pregnancy should need to know is how much jizz is inside the Vagina.

 

But where should the faction stuff go then? Another esp or a MCM toggle in the Orgasm esm I suspect as it relates to the wearing off of the cum smell.

 

Perhaps also SexoutLust is better assimilated completely into that new esm?

 

Where are condoms & diaphrams going to go and the scripts handling them, I've also wondered if we should make condoms wearable and reusable but wearing down in health with each use. Male & Female Condoms are in SCR currently as they relate to SexoutSTD's as well as Pregnancy, maybe they should be in SexoutOrgasm.esm too.

 

Also animations may need to know the actors wearing a strapon for the random picker.

[prideslayer]

My thought on the whole system from a 10k foot view breaks down as follows.

 

- Sexout.esm handles sex basically as it does now, notifying subscribers when sex is complete. Mods can extend the time and switch animations as they do now, if they desire.

 

- SSR handles the visual effects. The one in sexout now should be moved. This would mean SSR has a suite of animations that aren't "sex" but for general use, so both orgasm and birthing could use the 'splash' as you mention. For the existing splash, SSR would register a callback with sexout just like any other mod.

 

- Lust operates basically as it does now, on the sex-start callback, and using pause/stop sexout calls. In addition, it can turn off a (new) "Sexout::HandoutSemen" var (set it to 0) that sexout will set to 1 initially on each act.

 

- Sexout gets a new PostEjactulation callback. This is what pregnancy, ssr, etc would use to be notified that they should show visual effects, check sperm counts, etc. Some MCM settings and per-actor NX vars to handle which actors can ejaculate or not, and which ones carry sperm or not, would be good.

 

Sperm lifetime, strength, etc could all be controlled through some MCM sliders in sexout. To make this the easiest and most modular, they should probably simply be a combination of percentages for amount (0-100), and relative strengths based on human/creature. Mods using the values could interpret them however they like, with the idea being if some creature's strength is set to 25, then it only produces 25% of it's normal (base) sperm. 0 Would be none/infertile species. The strength would just be a list or ranking so things like pregnancy can decide what to do when multiple 'loads' are present from different species.

 

Does this sound like it will work?

[prideslayer]

My goal in the above is to first separate the visual effect from the functional effect, and second to provide a good (but simplified) sperm handling system. More complex sperm handling and handout systems could be devised in other mods (like pregnancy) which would just instruct sexout to not do it's sperm handling. This would not affect the visual display, once they are separated.

[Halstrom]

Sounds like it could work, Pregnancy only needs to know sex has occurred to add a ova handling fertility token to appropriate female actors, otherwise all it really needs is something like rZActor.Get_EFVI "SO:Semen:Asian" for the ova scripts to check which then do a calculation modified by rZActor.Get_EFVI "SO:Semen:HumanQuality".

 

Where would we put the faction friendliness stuff? In SSR with a MCM toggle?

 

Most of the remaining stuff Pregnancy needs from SCR are going to break Breeder, maybe I can make SCR dependant on SSR to reduce duplication for those running both till that can of worms is sorted as this requires a lot of input from User29 too and we're yet to hear his views of this.

 

My perception was we were going to only use SSR till I wittle SCR's bloating out which I'm making progress on with minimal breakage till I hit the Pregnancy/Breeder wall. I'm wondering if perhaps we are better if you could concentrate on the Sexout improvement/fixes on your plate and adding the semen functionality then we just replace the current SCR semen/splash/faction effects with your new ones, or create a new Orgasm.esm and we could autodisable/hack that stuff straight out of SCR. I can continue reducing SCR working with User29 to move stuff like Offspring from SCR into Pregnancy and he does the changes he needs to work with your new sperm systems. As some of the stuff I can't move out easily is the semen tokens which I don't see the point in moving, better left till your new system is ready. But I have also moved most of the scripts for Babies, Offspring & Semen out of SCR into Pregnancy so that all that remains are the assets themselves, I've done that without causing issues to Breeder.

 

Maybe DoctaSax might want to grab the SexoutOrgasm.esm batton rather than rewrite SexoutLust?

 

As far as any of the other unwanted stuff in SCR, I'm happy to continue more removal & MCM disabling of unwanted features as people suggest it and have already done so with a few things and removed others completely. Ive been contining to gradually cut stuff out as I check what requires it or move it into it's own esp. I haven't checked the size lately against what it was when SSR was introduced, but it's gets smaller every update.

 

I'm close to another Stable release now of SCR/Pregnancy to go with the promoting of Stable release of Drugs & STD's, once they settle I can look into more cleaning up of SCR.

 

The other thing that concerns me with larger sudden changes is that any of the major parties involved has less time for a period due to whatever reasons, a lot of work done by others can sit idle, untestable or even wasted and details on plans or how things work gets forgotten.

[Guest user29]

I don't see the point of SSR if halstrom keeps cutting the fat off of scr. I was under the impression SSR was a temporary fix for his over ambitious SCR.

 

Its very important the overall structure of SCR, Pregnancy, and Sexout remains intact for my mod and a ton of other mods. I mean, it's a 3.5 mb esp. It's a massive project that would create an unacceptable amount of work for me if you pull the rug from my feet. I'll upload old versions of the required mods before i spend days "Fixing" mine. People like my mod enough they'll forgo any updated requirements.

 

Please don't fuck my stuff up. I'm super cereal.

 

Do anything you like to sexout, but compatibility with preexisting mods should be your number 1 priority. 

[prideslayer]

SSR is just SCR less the bloat, literally; it's a renamed copy of SCR with judicious deletes in fnvedit after emptying script contents). I do not remember removing anything that I thought should stay or be recreated later within it. The thought was that mods could be tested with it as a drop in replacement for SCR -- most should, and do, work fine that way. The ones that don't need modified to use whatever the new source of the resources is, and most of those will be the pregnancy ESM since the bulk of what was removed were pregnant outfits and code related to the sperm stuff.

 

When SCR is done with it's diet, the two should be basically functionally identical, and at that point it won't matter which one takes over or what the name is -- I expect Hal to still be the custodion of it in any case.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "overall structure" or how you think that is being affected here? I'm not trying to "fuck up your stuff" but to be frank, SCR is (or, was) "fucking up" everyone elses stuff, modders and players alike. If when all is said and done the only mod left using SCR is breeder, because it still needs some of the bloat, it shouldn't be hard to copy those records out of SCR and directly into breeder. Of course if you want to package old versions of Sexout, SCR, and pregnancy with breeder instead, that's your choice.

[prideslayer]

disclaimer: I have not looked at the recent versions of SCR. I will do so now.

[Guest user29]

I may have panicked a bit there. Sorry about that. I guess I don't fully understand the scope of your ideas. I just know SSR gives people all sorts of problems with my mod and I straight up don't have the time to overhaul my mod if you were planning some significant changes to the way they all interact with each other.

 

I'm also not aware of any problems SCR is causing for anyone anymore. Though I know it was a big deal a few months ago.

[prideslayer]

Ok, size-wise, what I'm looking at stands as follows:

 

SSR: 1,072M

SCR (2013-05-19 -- version SSR was born of): 3,145M

SCR (current): 2,495M

 

When I look the current SCR over in FNVEdit, here is what I find:

- World Edits:

-- UltraLuxe blackjack table has a new texture?

-- Lucky38 Suite pregnancy/offspring markers

-- Doc Mitchell's test trunk and offspring something

-- Many modifications still in place to vanilla vendors (containers)

-- Pregnancy greeting/goodbye dialog modifications

-- Many vanilla clothing modifications (casual wear, vault suits, combat armor, etc) to add some swapping effect, adjust DT, or whatever.

-- Doctor quest dialog modifications for pregnancy drug addiction

-- Modification of vanilla addiction removal script for preg drug addiction

 

Those are the most egregious. All of them are pregnancy specific and don't need to be "common" or "shared" (SCR/SSR naming), and all of them risk breaking who knows what sexout and non-sexout related mods by modifying vanilla assets. This is perfectly fine for a given sexout mod, but unacceptable for a resource mod that all sexout mods require. It forces those authors (like, say, me) to live with potential mod conflicts and unwanted vanilla modifications simply to use the few things in SCR they want.

 

Once those are all gone we can move on to talking about secondary issues like the 50+ SCR quests, most if not all of which are scripted.

 

Basically, if you just load FalloutNV.esm, Sexout.esm, and SCR in fnvedit, and do a conflict search -- everything that's colored in SCR needs to go.

 

If all this is going away sooner than later, that's great. I'll retire SSR and switch Tryouts, SewerSlave, etc. all back to SCR and delete SSR as soon as it happens. I'd love to see the tertiary issues gone too (starfox race still in? wtf? child races that only pregnancy and pregnancy related mods care about? wtf again? etc.) but I could probably be convinced to turn a blind eye to them if more of them don't keep popping up.

[Halstrom]

Yeah, well my other option was to drop SCR completely, leaving the issues, and wait for you to return if ever with SSR ready to work with a rewrite of Pregnancy & Breeder and everything else over the last 3 months, but I'm working on it and I'll move what I can as I can, my time isn't infinite, and till you have the new semen system up there's no point in breaking stuff, so I'll move what I can as I can from the list above but I'm not going to screw up Breeder and other mods for all their users for 3 months while we wait for your new semen system, but I will work so that stuff isn't "In your face" and only pops up when mods use it. Your WTF's don't help motivate anyone. I don't modify records unless I can't do it by script or do it a better way, there may be a few cases where I did that a long time ago and haven't updated it or where I don't yet know how to add a activator to a Blackjack table by script if that's even possible or a way to modify a dialogue script by script. And yeah I can and will eventually move some of those to Pregnancy but it's just going to happen in Pregnancy instead of SCR, so no huge net gain there, I fixed more resource hungry issues first, I also wanted to think carefully about each thing as I move/remove it, improve it or do it a better way, we haven't been sitting on our bums while you've been inactive, we've all been doing RL stuff and busy here helping new modders and bughunting.

Sorry if chopping it by over 20% and removing a lot of heavy scripts and changing stuff over to NX variables isn't enough progress. Chopping out Drugs & STD's and removing the things removed / toggled so far wasn't a 5 minute job. You looked at the stable release, the STD/Drug related records edits have gone in the beta which is down to 2.326M and near release.

 

You may think it's just a matter of swapping a few records in Breeder to use SSR but try a few hundred is more likely, User29 has put a huge amount of work into that mod.

 

I wrote Drugs & STD's to use SCR, because SSR is missing some basic stuff like male condoms, STD's and Pregnancy require rather than have duplicated STD condoms and Pregnancy condoms.

 

I know what you are saying is the right way to do a lot of things and am working on it, but your attitude is no help, it is just pissing me off.

[DoctaSax]

 

That is my thought as well. If sperm is NX vars instead of token items or script vars, then any mod looking for those values will just get zeros if they haven't been set by some mod -- without requiring an orgasm esm as a master, and without crashing if it's not present.

The only issue I see is that you need to do some fancy magic with quest scripts and formlists/arrays to actually track/fade the cum/semen/sperm on any actors without needing to add a scripted handling token to each actor using it which then means you need the mod with the tokens to be a master to mods reading it. Other modders then need to be able to access that system too from their mods bearing in mind there are many people modding who's scripting foo is weak and will never reach that of many of us with more GECK battle seasoning

 

There is that. Setting & getting nx vars is one thing, but in order to calculate what they should be for an actor you usually still need a token script for long-term tracking. Tokens can be buildref'd of course. And yeah, bear in mind very few of us have any programming background at all - I sure as hell don't. Those new arrays etc look very promising, for instance, & I'll bet I'll find a use for them, once I can wrap my head around how to do that. And that always takes a while.

 

Maybe DoctaSax might want to grab the SexoutOrgasm.esm batton rather than rewrite SexoutLust?

I'm willing to do my bit, if we can agree on what it would be. We may be talking at cross purposes when it concerns cum effects - there's the ng one that pride would see transferred to ssr/scr, but scr also seems to have a bunch of base effects with a shader attached - "slathered in x cum" etc. And then there's cum having an effect in terms of pregnancy & faction stuff. I'm pretty much in the dark as to what it used for what nowadays, or how. That's no criticism, just a result of tunnel vision during active modding & taking a break since.

 

If there's to be an orgasm.esm/esp, I think it should be substantial enough to warrant a separate plugin, so the faction stuff could go in there as well as most of Lust's functionality probably. It's all in the same ballpark and if we keep most things toggleable, that should be fine for everybody.

 

When SCR is done with it's diet, the two should be basically functionally identical, and at that point it won't matter which one takes over or what the name is -- I expect Hal to still be the custodion of it in any case.

[snip]

If all this is going away sooner than later, that's great. I'll retire SSR and switch Tryouts, SewerSlave, etc. all back to SCR and delete SSR as soon as it happens.

Happy to hear it. With SSR open to growth & SCR open to shrinkage it's only natural the two can meet somewhere in the middle.

 

But it's well established that some things in SCR were too much and needed to go. And nobody's arguing with that. The problem is actually doing it, and it takes time - Hal moved house this summer too, for instance - as well as good communication. We all have a lot invested in our work, so try and stay sensitive to that. Hal's been a champ taking your earlier criticism on board without a fuss & giving nx a whirl, so there's no call for a repeat spanking.

 

On the other hand, I can totally understand people's anxiety when they read things like "loudly deprecate previous interfaces" etc, but that's still a ways off, and as long as we can talk about the plans, what they mean, and what our concerns are, there's no cause for panic. The changes we're talking about need to be coordinated properly so we don't leave mods out in the cold, or present players with an unplayable game for a stretch of time. Most of the time we don't know how each other's stuff works, what led to certain decisions to be taken & if alternatives exist. So let's keep the air clear & focus on solutions instead of being or putting people on the defensive.

 

I think first order of business would be to specify the problems with directly transferring preg assets from scr to pregnancy, especially what that means for User29. Is it a case of formIDs jumping around, scripts needing recompiling, anything else? If pride says he wouldn't mind helping some, take advantage of that.

Then there's also the matter of a few direct edits to vanilla records in SCR that should ideally be done away with: whatever problems keep that from happening, let's put them out in the open & stick our heads together to solve them.

 

Ending this post before I spontaneously start chanting kumbaya.

[RitualClarity]

I am a user and not a modder however I do understand enough about modding to understand the serious amounts of work needed to do just a few of the tasks mentioned here. Most of which are just tedious boring work and repetition. I would like to thank everyone that is working hard on this.

 

However..

 

In the process of your transformation there is mounting confusion among the users. I am confused. I now have to remove or check several backups of versions of Tryout and the supporting mods because at face value I can't tell the difference between them. Other users cannot either. When load orders are posted .. what are you using? I haven't played any modded FNV games for more than a month because I hadn't decided to put forth the effort to try to assemble the needed mods for my next play through. Hell I can't even make an informed decision if I want the SSR mods or do more of a SCR play through this time.

 

Perhaps keep both working and have an open agreement that code can be implemented into the sister mods SSR / SCR. as needed and available or possible. Some difference in the esm/esp naming of the mods to help tech support and minimize confusion. Finally support for one version or the other not both as it is inevitable that some codes are going to conflict between them at any given time depending on development. Those that want SSR currently won't have pregnancy or drugs and other things offered in the larger SCR. Those that want the currently developed and fixed Tryout will have to use SSR instead. Two camps. If someone is willing to volunteer and has the skill to help transfer components from one to the other as needed then good. Until then we will have limitations.

 

In order for the above to work the prefix of the mod would have to be relevant to the Sister mods used. SSR-Tryouts or SCR-Tryouts, etc. If someone needs tech support it would be easier to help them with a simple glance at the load order. Most of the tech support issues that I have read and helped are likely due to the SSR vs SCR issues, conflicts and missing records. Keeping SCR intact while moving records to the new SSR will help prevent that.

 

Users can then decide to use the older SCR system with pregnancy and Breeder or use the newer System of SSR. When components are ready to be rolled out to SSR mods can be added / transferred to it while users are still able to use SCR. In the case of Breeder, User29 would have a stable version of SCR Pregnancy to use until everything has been reworked and proven stable.

 

 

[prideslayer]

Yeah, well my other option was to drop SCR completely, leaving the issues, and wait for you to return if ever with SSR ready to work with a rewrite of Pregnancy & Breeder and everything else over the last 3 months

There is not going to be another version of SSR from me, unless there are actual bugs in the current one, ever. If you were or are waiting on such a thing, we must have miscommunicated badly. The first version was *just* enough to get tryouts, slavery, and sewerslave working. The second version had less deletions of lists and outfits, to give clothing eval a fighting chance. I have no plans for a 3rd version.

 

Initially (Plan A) I wasn't going to make SSR at all, I was just going to remove the dependency on SCR from Tryouts (it's only dependent on things moved there from the Legion ESM anyway, so I can just move them back) and Sewerslave (Half a dozen unimportant refs). I released a stripped down SCR and called it SSR to enable those Legion bits to remain shared, since one or two mods are using the strapon, and SCR is using the custom slave outfits for pregnant versions.

 

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but neither of those things in Legion is worth keeping SCR, as it was or is, as a dependency. Being that Tryouts is unabashedly my favorite sexout mod, and without it I'd not have spent two years give or take creating SexoutNG or NX in the first place, it's extremely important to *my* motivation that it remains fun for *me* to play.

 

Call it selfish, but the least I expect from my own efforts is to be able to play and enjoy the mods I work on. SCR took that enjoyment away from me, after a very promising start, as I already explained in detail.

 

 

I'm not going to screw up Breeder and other mods for all their users for 3 months while we wait for your new semen system

 

There's no reason to break anything, and I don't want to. This semen thing is a discussion and an ancillary one. Breeder is working fine with the system as it exists in SCR. If you just move that stuff to pregnancy instead, and get it out of SCR, why would Breeder even notice or need updated?

 

The semen system can stay exactly as it is, as far as I'm concerned. The discussion on that front is more of a what-if/what-should-we-do thing. Not some big holdup in SCR, SSR, or whatever.

 

it's just going to happen in Pregnancy instead of SCR, so no huge net gain there

I, and others, do not want to play with pregnancy or pregnancy related 'stuff'. The net gain isn't for you, it's for us. Every item, worldspace modification, dialog modification, or script moved from SCR to Pregnancy saves us resources, and makes the sexout mods in our loadorder more compatible with each other and non-sexout mods.

 

I call that a significant net gain.

 

Sorry if chopping it by over 20% and removing a lot of heavy scripts and changing stuff over to NX variables isn't enough progress.

Listen. It was suggested that I should look and see if it was slimmed down enough yet for me to abandon SSR. I looked. It's not. I explained why.

 

The WTFs were perhaps rude, but I figured of the things that could be done to move SCR in the right direction, those two would be quick and easy to address. Especially the starfox thing, which if you can't tell, really gets under my skin.

 

If getting rid of all the vanilla edits, pregnant outfits, and so on is really that much more difficult than it looks to me, then I can always go back to Plan A -- removing SCR as a requirement for tryouts and SS, and shooting SSR out behind the woodshed. SCR and Pregnancy could then continue on without further comment or objection by me.

[prideslayer]

 

 

That is my thought as well. If sperm is NX vars instead of token items or script vars, then any mod looking for those values will just get zeros if they haven't been set by some mod -- without requiring an orgasm esm as a master, and without crashing if it's not present.

The only issue I see is that you need to do some fancy magic with quest scripts and formlists/arrays to actually track/fade the cum/semen/sperm on any actors without needing to add a scripted handling token to each actor using it which then means you need the mod with the tokens to be a master to mods reading it. Other modders then need to be able to access that system too from their mods bearing in mind there are many people modding who's scripting foo is weak and will never reach that of many of us with more GECK battle seasoning

 

There is that. Setting & getting nx vars is one thing, but in order to calculate what they should be for an actor you usually still need a token script for long-term tracking. Tokens can be buildref'd of course. And yeah, bear in mind very few of us have any programming background at all - I sure as hell don't. Those new arrays etc look very promising, for instance, & I'll bet I'll find a use for them, once I can wrap my head around how to do that. And that always takes a while.

 

Well from the "real programming" background, we have a concept of a "shared-exclusive" lock. This is a resource that anyone can read from but only one guy can write to. So the fancypants scripting only needs done in one place, buy whoever actually writes the effect. The less experienced guys probably want less advanced stuff anyway, such as just knowing if it's visible or not, or how much, so they can make dialog branches. They can easily get that by just reading the NX values without any clever coding.

 

 

 

Maybe DoctaSax might want to grab the SexoutOrgasm.esm batton rather than rewrite SexoutLust?

I'm willing to do my bit, if we can agree on what it would be. We may be talking at cross purposes when it concerns cum effects - there's the ng one that pride would see transferred to ssr/scr, but scr also seems to have a bunch of base effects with a shader attached - "slathered in x cum" etc.

 

I'm after a few things. To clarify.

 

- The visual effects should be "separate" from the semen (rather, sperm) tracking and so on. This will let the two effects take place independently, which logically they should anyway. If some poor doll gets a facial, that's a noticable visual effect but a zero-sperm effect -- you can't get pregnant from a facial. Conversely, if you stick your yaya in her hoho to make a pregnancy-inducing deposit, there will be little to no visual indication.

 

- None of that "slathered in cum" stuff, or other "in character" messaging, in the lib. Poorly written or campy dialog is one of the biggest turn-offs for me in otherwise great mods (SOAP for oblivion comes to mind -- I love the effort, quests, and detail, but absolutely detest the dialog, with all the "kekeke" and CrAZyCaPS). I don't want to force that dialog on players, or have it forced on me, by something as "mundane" as an effect/resource library. Leave it up to the mods that are telling stories to write dialog.

 

I'd suggest coding all of it without any visual indications, and then code the visual effects after as an option that can be disabled/enabled. This will ensure there's no irresponsible interaction between the two when it comes to visual vs. functional effects.

 

If there's to be an orgasm.esm/esp, I think it should be substantial enough to warrant a separate plugin, so the faction stuff could go in there as well as most of Lust's functionality probably. It's all in the same ballpark and if we keep most things toggleable, that should be fine for everybody.

This sounds good to me. I'd ask that if the Lust functionality is to be rolled up in it, that it can be turned off via MCM -- at least the effects on the player, if not the actual tracking.

 

I'm not averse to putting the visual effects in the Sexout ESM either -- that's what it's for, visual effects. The only reason I'd potentially like to see the visual effects in a standalone mod is so it can easily be replaced with different/newer mods with better effects in the future, without impacting mods that need the sperm/semen mechanical data.

 

That is something easy enough to override with an esp though even if it's in the sexout ESM.

 

Happy to hear it. With SSR open to growth & SCR open to shrinkage it's only natural the two can meet somewhere in the middle.

SSR is open to growth after SCR is retired, if that's the path we end up going down. Until and unless SCR is retired though, SSR is 'frozen' to maintain compatability. The only updates it might get are more forks -- i.e. I take the latest copy of SCR and slice and dice it down again. This is simply to maintain formID compatability for modders that want to make the switch, while getting new items and lists (that I personally believe belong there) from SCR into SSR.

 

I know some are keeping up two versions of the mods, one for SCR and one for SSR. This is just crazy talk, but people are doing it, and I don't know why. If your mod works fine with SSR, just use that. If it doesn't, then continue to use SCR. The two can coexist peacefully with basically no fuss. SCES is obviously an exception since it has two sets of lists to add to, sorry!

 

We all have a lot invested in our work, so try and stay sensitive to that. Hal's been a champ taking your earlier criticism on board without a fuss & giving nx a whirl, so there's no call for a repeat spanking.

No spanking was intended, but I'm not really the most sensitive type. I was a bit upset that new features were being added before the diet was done, and then a bit more upset that it was implied that I was somehow responsible for the holdup. I'll stop now less I just get pissed off all over again.

 

Chances are high that I'm just going to wash my hands of the whole thing, remove SSR, and dig SCR out of Tryouts and SS. This way nobody is waiting on me for SSR updates that are never coming, there is no confusion for users, and I can proceed with playing and modding with a minimum of annoyance.

 

On the other hand, I can totally understand people's anxiety when they read things like "loudly deprecate previous interfaces" etc, but that's still a ways off, and as long as we can talk about the plans, what they mean, and what our concerns are, there's no cause for panic.

That was meant to be taken literally, as in, Sexout would loudly scream in popups and the console log that a deprecated interface was just used by some mod. It would, of course, continue to function after complaining. This is the only reliable way I can think of to bring out of date mods to the attention of their authors or at least the community in general if the authors are gone. Think of it similar to the sanity checks in sexout that look for old mods or a messed up load order and scream about them.

[prideslayer]

In the process of your transformation there is mounting confusion among the users. I am confused. I now have to remove or check several backups of versions of Tryout and the supporting mods because at face value I can't tell the difference between them. Other users cannot either. When load orders are posted .. what are you using? I haven't played any modded FNV games for more than a month because I hadn't decided to put forth the effort to try to assemble the needed mods for my next play through. Hell I can't even make an informed decision if I want the SSR mods or do more of a SCR play through this time.

I will admit, some of this did not make sense to me. Why are you using backups or whatever of Tryouts? Just use the beta. It seems stable enough right now, and will probably be promoted to a release later today. Same with the Sexout beta.

 

When load orders are posted, if the user doesn't have the latest version of something, that is the first thing they need to address. None of us (modders) is going to spend time troubleshooting out of date mods that might have fixed the issue.

 

You should be able to play just fine with both SCR and SSR active at once, and even the load order should not really matter between them. Use the latest sexout and tryouts -- beta if it's more than a week or so old with few problems -- I don't promote betas to releases as often as I should. Use the latest SCR and Pregnancy as well. The only problem I'm aware of is with the clothing eval system -- I think there are two versions right now, one for SCR and one for SSR, and I don't think you can use them both at once.

 

So, you should just use the SCR one, since (AFAIK) none of the SSR using mods use any of the clothing lists as far as sexy/revealing/whatever.

[RitualClarity]

 

I will admit, some of this did not make sense to me. Why are you using backups or whatever of Tryouts? Just use the beta. It seems stable enough right now, and will probably be promoted to a release later today. Same with the Sexout beta.

Allow me to clarify the Tryout statement. At times parts of the tryout haven't worked in the past while being developed. Most mods are that way. When I found an issue or such I would just go back to the previous one. Now with two versions which on the surface look the same filewise (no difference in esp/esm naming) means I would have to run the one that I though was the previous version of the Tryouts that I wanted to use. Not that big of a deal but a new wrinkle that I hope gets resolved soon. I will admit that it seems that the newer SSR version has resolved most if not all of the issues that I had that the older version SCR had. Perhaps It is time to try it again and delete the older references.

 

When load orders are posted, if the user doesn't have the latest version of something, that is the first thing they need to address. None of us (modders) is going to spend time troubleshooting out of date mods that might have fixed the issue

Yes, and yes. I agree with you 100%. How do you at a quick glance see which "version"  is being used? SSR, SCR or some combination.? You have to engage the individual to find that out.. then seem like an ass when you don't continue to try to help them out. It can draw out the support for them as they themselves with limited understanding get more confused.

So now with these two systems running not only do anyone trying to help  have to try to make sure that the individuals are using the most current version but the correct version as well. Really just some inconveniences. It can be done and done with a few more interactions. Some of my comments were out of frustration and just a idea shot out.

 

Personally I never as for any support when I am running any mod that is outdated or has an upgrade or any that I know have been indicated as conflicting. I decide to do something that isn't suppose to be done I take the results on myself. (some of the results have been hilarious, not as much as Zippy's Orgy mod but close ) I haven't in the past nor will I ever in the future (finger crossed). I might post questions if a particular issue has been resolved or not to help decide if I need to upgrade.

 

You should be able to play just fine with both SCR and SSR active at once, and even the load order should not really matter between them.Use the latest sexout and tryouts -- beta if it's more than a week or so old with few problems -- I don't promote betas to releases as often as I should. Use the latest SCR and Pregnancy as well. The only problem I'm aware of is with the clothing eval system -- I think there are two versions right now, one for SCR and one for SSR, and I don't think you can use them both at once. So, you should just use the SCR one, since (AFAIK) none of the SSR using mods use any of the clothing lists as far as sexy/revealing/whatever.

Roger, good to know.

 

If getting rid of all the vanilla edits, pregnant outfits, and so on is really that much more difficult than it looks to me, then I can always go back to Plan A -- removing SCR as a requirement for tryouts and SS, and shooting SSR out behind the woodshed. SCR and Pregnancy could then continue on without further comment or objection by me.

I love the work that you have done to Sexout. I really do. I have read most if not all the post that you have made. Many I couldn't understand the coding and modding but still read them to try to understand more about modding.

 

That being said.. why keep SSR? From my understanding it is better to create a mod that is free standing where possible and only create a central esm when many records are needed to be accessed by multiple mods. (modular system). If Legion and the rest of Tryouts and supporting mods can run independently from each other with very little changes to this fact.. why not. ?