Skimpy Armor Keyword Resource (4/13/2023)

[twistedtrebla]

6 hours ago, Spaceguest991 said:

I wonder where armor like the basic leather chest would fit, Since it's not really lewd itself or anything but at the same time if you wore nothing under it, it doesn't really cover much of the chest.

 

Is the way keywords work you can give the basic leather armor skimpy keyword but as long as you have something non skimpy under it doesn't count to a skimpy rating.

 

 

I haven’t used vanilla game armor in like forever lol so I don’t remember what they look like. 
 

If you are wearing skimpy armor, but a top underneath that covers everything, like a vault suit, then the mod will use the top clothes for calculating skimpy rating. Essentially whichever item piece covers more of the skin gets used for skimpy rating calculation.

[vaultbait]

Before we get too far developing collections of tag patch plugins or RobCo Patcher lists for general publication, one problem I see with this right off the bat is that while Fallout 4 provides separate meshes for male and female versions of outfits, the SAKR keywords aren't gender-specific.

 

The two options I see to address that are either to add male and female versions of relevant keywords in SAKR, or to make separate male and female patches/lists so that users can decide which one to install. Allowing people to differentiate coverage or skimpiness between male and female versions of the same outfits by providing gendered tags would make it possible to centralize that duplication instead of everyone needing to have separate lists or plugins for both genders.

 

Thoughts?

[twistedtrebla]

6 hours ago, vaultbait said:

 

RobCo Patcher makes it possible to do that as just one big text file with a list of form IDs from various mods and the keywords you want applied to them. It will patch the ones that exist in memory at game load, no need for a huge pile of plugin patches any more. If someone wanted to maintain a text file somewhere with everything from every mod anyone likes to use, that should work quite trivially.

 

Edit: Oops, I see antoniut already beat me to that suggestion, I should have read the remaining posts before replying. Anyway, last week I posted an example of doing something similar with it to make all super mutants confident and evil for Sexual Harassment. It worked quite well.

 Oh interesting. I will have to take a look into the RobCo Patcher.

 

What happens if you have a text file that references a mod that you don’t have installed? Does it safely ignore it and move on? If so, then probably the best way to go about this is one big text file that can be updated as we go and has all armor mods in existence with the proper keywords.

[twistedtrebla]

3 minutes ago, vaultbait said:

Before we get too far developing collections of tag patch plugins or RobCo Patcher lists for general publication, one problem I see with this right off the bat is that while Fallout 4 provides separate meshes for male and female versions of outfits, the SAKR keywords aren't gender-specific.

 

The two options I see to address that are either to add male and female versions of relevant keywords in SAKR, or to make separate male and female patches/lists so that users can decide which one to install. Allowing people to differentiate coverage or skimpiness between male and female versions of the same outfits by providing gendered tags would make it possible to centralize that duplication instead of everyone needing to have separate lists or plugins for both genders.

 

Thoughts?

Are there armor pieces that are so different between male and female versions? Having to add 2 sets of keyword, one for male one for female, for each armor is going to double the work required.
 

The mod allows users to customize skimpy rating value for each keyword. So they can essentially have 2 dif set of MCM settings if they switch between male and female a lot. Should help alleviate some of the concern.

[rubber_duck]

Disregard my old post, I've changed my mind.

 

This is absolutely awesome! Surely, there's a lot of work to be done (community-side) when it comes to patching mods for SAKR (by the way, I created a 'Repository' for it, check it out).

 

That being said, I do have a couple of questions...

 

Firstly, how would I treat Lace bras and panties? They are just that - bras and panties, but there are no lace or see-through tags for them.

 

Second, is there a limit for the number of keywords on a single item? Like, I have a Leotard and it covers both the breasts and crotch - I know I can apply the two tags (top, bottom), but I'm asking about a keyword + tag limit. Is there such a limit?

 

Then, the heels - why isn't there a keyword for them? It definitely should exist, at least in my opinion.

 

Finally, and this is (yet again), a personal preference, but I think some sort of implementation where the player is able to add tags 'on-the-go' (armor bench) should be implemented. Right now I'm working on adding SAKR keywords to Vtaw's WD5, WD6, WD7 and WD8 (not all items, just those that I ocasionally equip), and the process is very tedious. I can't help but think if you could implement it in a way MAIM 2 did with its EZ Keywords addition - it allows players to put a keyword on any weapon, vanilla and modded, on weapons workbench. There definitely should be something similar for SAKR and armor workbench, if it could be done.

 

Either way, thanks a lot for creating this! I really look forward to seeing the future of SAKR! Top job!

 

Keep up the great work and take care!

[twistedtrebla]

6 hours ago, rubber_duck said:

This really is great, but I doubt I'll use it for actual gameplay. I have some questions (just being curious)...

 

For starters, this mod (as far as I can tell) adds a master (.esm) plugin, correct? Is the said plugin ESL-flagged? If it isn't - why?

 

Are you going to integrate SAKR with your other mods? I already noticed you pushed an update to SH, but are you going to make SAKR a requirement for those mods?

 

Finally, and I believe this would be the great workaround for those massive clothing packs out there, have you considered making the keywords for armor bench? I mean surely, the player could cheat a bit, but adding SAKR keywords to clothes (especially the Vtaw's packs) is just ridiculous.

 

Thanks for sharing nonetheless!

 Right, it’s an esm. I didn’t want to start as esl because I wasn’t sure how the mod would evolve over time. Starting off as esl and then having to convert it to esm later won’t be possible without it becoming backwards incompatible with other mods needing to call it.

 

I plan to add more features in Sexual Harassment. But at this time I don’t think I will ever make it a requirement. Getting modded Fallout 4 working (especially with these loverslab mods) is already daunting enough for beginners. I don’t want to further raise the barrier to entry by making this a hard requirement, since this mod has a more difficult initial setup than other mods. If we figure out a way to make the initial setup trivial, then I may consider making this a hard requirement. Otherwise, the legacy slot based system in SH will always exist, and this will exist to further spice it up for people ready to go deeper into modding.

 

What do you mean keywords for armor bench?

[twistedtrebla]

9 minutes ago, rubber_duck said:

Disregard my old post, I've changed my mind.

 

This is absolutely awesome! Surely, there's a lot of work to be done (community-side) when it comes to patching mods for SAKR (by the way, I created a 'Repository' for it, check it out).

 

That being said, I do have a couple of questions...

 

Firstly, how would I treat Lace bras and panties? They are just that - bras and panties, but there are no lace or see-through tags for them.

 

Second, is there a limit for the number of keywords on a single item? Like, I have a Leotard and it covers both the breasts and crotch - I know I can apply the two tags (top, bottom), but I'm asking about a keyword + tag limit. Is there such a limit?

 

Then, the heels - why isn't there a keyword for them? It definitely should exist, at least in my opinion.

 

Finally, and this is (yet again), a personal preference, but I think some sort of implementation where the player is able to add tags 'on-the-go' (armor bench) should be implemented. Right now I'm working on adding SAKR keywords to Vtaw's WD5, WD6, WD7 and WD8 (not all items, just those that I ocasionally equip), and the process is very tedious. I can't help but think if you could implement it in a way MAIM 2 did with its EZ Keywords addition - it allows players to put a keyword on any weapon, vanilla and modded, on weapons workbench. There definitely should be something similar for SAKR and armor workbench, if it could be done.

 

Either way, thanks a lot for creating this! I really look forward to seeing the future of SAKR! Top job!

 

Keep up the great work and take care!

The lace bra and panties would prob have to be done via “sheer” tag keyword, like the same ones for pants and top. It doesn’t exist yet because 1) I wasn’t sure how common lace bra/panties were and 2) I wasn’t sure if wearing a sheer bra should just consider you as naked or still properly clothed. But it can definitely be added if there’s enough demand.

 

There are no limits. A single clothing item can have as many keywords as it makes sense. The only limit is you should not be wearing 2 different items that both have the same type of keyword, like wearing 2 pants. That will throw off the calculation. But that’s more of an edge case anyway since an item of same type (like pants) would normally share the same armor slot and the game would prevent you from wearing them at the same time.

 

We can have heels and other accessories that changes how a person is viewed in terms of skimpiness, even if it doesn’t cover the crotch or breast. But like all keywords requests or addition, it needs to be worth it because every keyword addition comes with performance implications.

[antoniut]

19 minutes ago, rubber_duck said:

Firstly, how would I treat Lace bras and panties? They are just that - bras and panties, but there are no lace or see-through tags for them.

 

(Sorry for getting in the middle of the conversation)
Well, I don't know, maybe we could use the vanilla value "Charisma". It is easy to add the +1 or +2 enchantment to each piece of clothing. could complement the keywords, and the API could value that

For example:
Bra: Bra Keyword
Elegant bra: (Bra Keyword +)+1 Charisma
Sexy bra: (Bra Keyword +)+2 Charisma

Assuming that the PC is wearing 3 or 4 "sexy" pieces, it would be easily calibrated by the API

[vaultbait]

29 minutes ago, twistedtrebla said:

What happens if you have a text file that references a mod that you don’t have installed? Does it safely ignore it and move on? If so, then probably the best way to go about this is one big text file that can be updated as we go and has all armor mods in existence with the proper keywords.

 

It safely and quietly skips anything that's not installed, making it possible for one list to cover many mods and users don't have to choose which ones they want support for at installation that way. Also it allows you to break your lists up into multiple files and group them in subdirectories for ease of management.

[vaultbait]

27 minutes ago, twistedtrebla said:

Are there armor pieces that are so different between male and female versions? Having to add 2 sets of keyword, one for male one for female, for each armor is going to double the work required.

 

At least in my case, because I mostly play with conversions/replacers for vanilla game and DLC outfits rather than mod-added outfits, I'll say that what the Classy Chassis Outfitters or Ghaan's or Lazman's skimpy replacers cover on a female body differs significantly for many outfits from what, say, BodyTalk3's built-in outfit conversions cover.

 

You're right that, since this mod only targets tracking for the player, it should be possible to choose at install time or configure independently for a female playthrough vs a male playthrough since it doesn't need to support both genders simultaneously, which is why I mentioned maintaining separate patch plugins or lists for each gender would be a possible alternative approach to solve it.

[vaultbait]

29 minutes ago, twistedtrebla said:

What do you mean keywords for armor bench?

 

Nuka Ride allows users to custom tag their clothing of choice as "porn star" recognized (for quest/behavior purposes) by adding keyworded attachments to them at the armor workbench. I can probably dig the relevant details of the implementation of out the mod if you're interested in a similar approach, but it also seems like something that could be done by a related mod instead of directly in SAKR (similar to Rogg's No-Strip Items Manager though it uses a proxy container not an workbench).

Edited March 31, 2023 by vaultbait

[twistedtrebla]

37 minutes ago, vaultbait said:

 

It safely and quietly skips anything that's not installed, making it possible for one list to cover many mods and users don't have to choose which ones they want support for at installation that way. Also it allows you to break your lists up into multiple files and group them in subdirectories for ease of management.

That’s neat. I will definitely have to play with it.

 

is it an external tool like bodyslide that you open and build the patch? Or does it do that by itself when the game runs?

[vaultbait]

20 minutes ago, twistedtrebla said:

That’s neat. I will definitely have to play with it.

 

is it an external tool like bodyslide that you open and build the patch? Or does it do that by itself when the game runs?

 

It's an F4SE (DLL) plugin and operates near-instantaneously at game load.

 

Edit: Oh, and if you play around with it, a tip... it comes with a config file that includes an option for verbose logging. That's set off by default, I recommend turning it on since the patcher log (you can find it in the same directory where f4sel.og is written) will include extra information on which forms it matched and what it did to them.

Edited March 31, 2023 by vaultbait

[Gamaramdi]

Hi man how are you?

Thanks for the mod, it is a great idea and a very needed mod.

I have a couple of comments on this, like:

1.- Wouldn't it be easier and mainstream to add the keywords in a workbench in game? Kind of like the Nuka Ride makes u being recognized like a porn star.
 

I know doing it on FE4Edit needs to be done only once, and not in every game... but thinking about the tech dificulty and i, for one don't use every single cloth in Vtaw's collections sometimes is even hard to remember them one by one, so i could just add the keyword to what im going to wear that im already adding a legendary effect or some protection wave.

2.- Or maybe i like to wear a very skimpy battle camo short and top, but at the moment i dont want them to be considered like that in game... cause is hard to feel sexy when im covered in mud and blood, so i just dont add the keyword IN GAME, or the other way... i can wear a large night dress, that i want npc's reacting to it in a certain event, but only in that event, so i can remove the keyword after it...

3.- Maybe there could be some way to generate a file that remembers what clothing you added the keywords on earlier games kind of Transfer Settlements? and can be later imported?
That way we can do the work along the game, cloth by cloth, instead of spending a couple of weeks ? adding keywords to ALL 10,000 clothing pieces some of us have! i mean how many pieces are in Vtaw's mods alone? ?

Edited April 1, 2023 by Gamaramdi

[RandomKhajiit]

looks neat altho i use fusion girl atm and both mods suggested are cbbe aside from the huge material swap mod bloat in them, why cant FO4 get a simple damn bikini mod or something.

[Gamaramdi]

5 hours ago, vaultbait said:

 

Nuka Ride allows users to custom tag their clothing of choice as "porn star" recognized (for quest/behavior purposes) by adding keyworded attachments to them at the armor workbench. I can probably dig the relevant details of the implementation of out the mod if you're interested in a similar approach, but it also seems like something that could be done by a related mod instead of directly in SAKR (similar to Rogg's No-Strip Items Manager though it uses a proxy container not an workbench).

Damn this would be great

And... im thinking of something else... I changed a lot of slots along the esp's i have so... if i download a new esp with the keywords someone else has taken the time to fix... i'll have to do it again, and maybe i just dont agree to the keywords they choose... so...

Edited April 1, 2023 by Gamaramdi

[twistedtrebla]

2 hours ago, Gamaramdi said:

Hi man how are you?

Thanks for the mod, it is a great idea and a very needed mod.

I have a couple of comments on this, like:

1.- Wouldn't it be easier and mainstream to add the keywords in a workbench in game? Kind of like the Nuka Ride makes u being recognized like a porn star.
 

I know doing it on FE4Edit needs to be done only once, and not in every game... but thinking about the tech dificulty and i, for one don't use every single cloth in Vtaw's collections sometimes is even hard to remember them one by one, so i could just add the keyword to what im going to wear that im already adding a legendary effect or some protection wave.

2.- Or maybe i like to wear a very skimpy battle camo short and top, but at the moment i dont want them to be considered like that in game... cause is hard to feel sexy when im covered in mud and blood, so i just dont add the keyword IN GAME, or the other way... i can wear a large night dress, that i want npc's reacting to it in a certain event, but only in that event, so i can remove the keyword after it...

3.- Maybe there could be some way to generate a file that remembers what clothing you added the keywords on earlier games kind of Transfer Settlements? and can be later imported?
That way we can do the work along the game, cloth by cloth, instead of spending a couple of weeks ? adding keywords to ALL 10,000 clothing pieces some of us have! i mean how many pieces are in Vtaw's mods alone? ?

The RobCo patcher approach seems to be the most promising one. One file to rule them all. Install once and never have to worry about it again, with no conflicts whatsoever.

 

We just need folks from the community to start creating the files and sharing them. And I’ll happily put the links to them here. Might do some of them myself if I got the time

[Gamaramdi]

26 minutes ago, twistedtrebla said:

The RobCo patcher approach seems to be the most promising one. One file to rule them all. Install once and never have to worry about it again, with no conflicts whatsoever.

 

We just need folks from the community to start creating the files and sharing them. And I’ll happily put the links to them here. Might do some of them myself if I got the time

I'd look in to it, but i have no idea how it works, i'd like to patch some ammo, besides this... i'll look for some tutorial

[twistedtrebla]

7 hours ago, vaultbait said:

 

At least in my case, because I mostly play with conversions/replacers for vanilla game and DLC outfits rather than mod-added outfits, I'll say that what the Classy Chassis Outfitters or Ghaan's or Lazman's skimpy replacers cover on a female body differs significantly for many outfits from what, say, BodyTalk3's built-in outfit conversions cover.

 

You're right that, since this mod only targets tracking for the player, it should be possible to choose at install time or configure independently for a female playthrough vs a male playthrough since it doesn't need to support both genders simultaneously, which is why I mentioned maintaining separate patch plugins or lists for each gender would be a possible alternative approach to solve it.

After thinking about this more, if there was ever a strong need to specify different keywords for male vs female armor (i.e. the current remedies aren't good enough) then this is probably how I would go about it. I'd declare the existing keywords as unisex, and create male-override keywords. For armor that shares similar style for male and female counterparts, you'd just use the unisex keywords and be done with it. For some small subset of armor where male and female armor styles diverge, you'd add the usual unisex keyword, and male-override keywords to specify how the armor looks for the male version.

 

In the end, this would mean:

• The current set of keywords are here to stay, so we can start building off of it
• If male-override keywords get introduced, the final set of supported keywords would be 2x the current number (the current unisex keywords + male-override counterparts)
• For majority of armors where the style for male and female versions are the same, users creating patches only needs to deal with one set of keywords, sparing them from having to duplicate work
• For the mod logic, it'll mostly use the unisex keywords to calculate skimpy rating. If a male-override keyword exists on the armor, and the player is a male, then it'll defer to the override ratings.

[P_dante]

About the numerical values. What happens when there are various clothes? I mean, 30 valued pants + 30 valued shirt would make a 60 skimpiness valued attire?

If so, either maybe maximum skimpiness shouls be 0 and full skimo 100 instead, or clothings should surtract from skimpiness value, in order to allow having more parts covered reduce skimpiness instead of adding to it.

[twistedtrebla]

1 hour ago, P_dante said:

About the numerical values. What happens when there are various clothes? I mean, 30 valued pants + 30 valued shirt would make a 60 skimpiness valued attire?

If so, either maybe maximum skimpiness shouls be 0 and full skimo 100 instead, or clothings should surtract from skimpiness value, in order to allow having more parts covered reduce skimpiness instead of adding to it.

 

Skimpy rating for upper body (top, bra) dont add to skimpy rating for lower body (pants, panties) when calculating "overall" skimpy rating.

It's more like an average. If your lower body rating was something like 40, and upper body something like 60, then the overall would be something in the middle, like 55.

[Tanglin]

I added the tags for the tank top and the shorts in FO4Edit and without changing anything else, I got the Skimpy Rating of 58. Feels right.

 

I

[rubber_duck]

15 hours ago, twistedtrebla said:

The lace bra and panties would prob have to be done via “sheer” tag keyword, like the same ones for pants and top. It doesn’t exist yet because 1) I wasn’t sure how common lace bra/panties were and 2) I wasn’t sure if wearing a sheer bra should just consider you as naked or still properly clothed. But it can definitely be added if there’s enough demand.

 

There are no limits. A single clothing item can have as many keywords as it makes sense. The only limit is you should not be wearing 2 different items that both have the same type of keyword, like wearing 2 pants. That will throw off the calculation. But that’s more of an edge case anyway since an item of same type (like pants) would normally share the same armor slot and the game would prevent you from wearing them at the same time.

 

We can have heels and other accessories that changes how a person is viewed in terms of skimpiness, even if it doesn’t cover the crotch or breast. But like all keywords requests or addition, it needs to be worth it because every keyword addition comes with performance implications.

 

Yeah... After doing some patching work, these are the tags and keywords I'd add to SAKR:

 

> pantyTagLace (or just add 'sheer') tag for panties - Absolutely Skimpy Attire offers a bunch of thongs, and all of them are technically see-through. If you don't believe me, just open any ASA Thongs in BS and zoom in.

 

> Armor that doesn't cover the front (breasts, belly), but covers the back?

This doesn't have to be a whole new keyword, just add tags to existing armors. Vtaw WD7's Tactical Vest, for example, offers the version which covers only the back and leaves front (breasts/belly) unprotected.

 

> How would I treat Stockings and Socks?

There are a lot of stockings and socks available, and I don't know which keywords to apply to them. I wouldn't consider wearing, say, thigh-high socks skimpy, but it surely should add certain amount of sexiness to the character. It'd be the best if you could add a new keyword (sakr_kwd_socks) and then a few different tags for it, such as socksTagStockings (for stockings; this tag would consider the item 'sheer' and it'd add more skimpiness than the other two), socksTagKnee (for knee-high socks), socksTagThigh (thigh-high socks).

 

> Heels

You could add a new keyword: sakr_kwd_heels and then a few tags that represent the height. This is up to you, but at least consider it.

 

Performance implications?

What do you mean about 'performance implications'? Correct me if I'm wrong, but SAKR updates its values every few real-life seconds, right? Would it be possible to modify it so that it calculates its values every time Player opens the Pip-Boy and/or changes (equips/reequips/unequips) armor stuff? Additionally, if I were you I'd definitely increase that timer - to 30* (or more) real life seconds, just to be sure.

 

With that you'd have the main way for calculating character's skimpiness: every time PC brings up the Pip-Boy - the values update. However, if PC brings up the Pip-Boy and changes their outfit (items), do the calculation upon putting the Pip-Boy away.

 

If PC didn't use Pip-Boy in a long time (30+ seconds; ideally configurable in MCM), do the calculation nonetheless.

 

Alternatively (and I don't know how this would work in practice), you could just fire up the calculation every time the PC changed cells (ex. Commonwealth -> DC), either by manually interacting with the doors to other cells or using fast travel.

 

Keep up the great work, can't wait to see what you'll create next! Take care!

[Spaceguest991]

16 hours ago, twistedtrebla said:

I haven’t used vanilla game armor in like forever lol so I don’t remember what they look like. 
 

If you are wearing skimpy armor, but a top underneath that covers everything, like a vault suit, then the mod will use the top clothes for calculating skimpy rating. Essentially whichever item piece covers more of the skin gets used for skimpy rating calculation.

That makes sense thanks for clearing that up for me. Also if you're wondering what the basic leather chest armor looks like.

 

Spoiler

This is a basic vanilla fallout4 leather chest armor, it doesn't really cover alot.

 

But at least it covers more than a basic synth chest "armor"

Spoiler

 

[vaultbait]

8 hours ago, twistedtrebla said:

For the mod logic, it'll mostly use the unisex keywords to calculate skimpy rating. If a male-override keyword exists on the armor, and the player is a male, then it'll defer to the override ratings.

 

This sounds like a reasonable compromise. And like I said, it's probably mostly an issue for replacers of all-in-one "body" slot outfits from the main game and DLC plugins, where shirts and pants on the male model are revealing low-cut sleeveless tops and mini-skirts (maybe with no underwear) for the corresponding female model. Or conversely, for users of one of the "shirtless" male outfit replacer collections where the corresponding female versions of their outfits don't have everyone's tits hanging out in the breeze.

 

For mod clothing, which is often composable separates and typically nearly identical meshes on both genders, the unisex keyword approach is certainly simpler.