Devious Followers Framework Development

[Aldid]

1 hour ago, ponzipyramid said:

 

Just saw the edits, definitely a result of some old code I didn't clean up. Not sure if you're interested but I built the plugin off an example that included function hooking - a way to listen in on certain native functions firing and then do something. In this case, there was a hook for the OnHit function so you could count the number of hits a certain actor landed. Obviously unnecessary for this mod.

I see!

 

1 hour ago, ponzipyramid said:

Whoops, shared an old dev version with function hooking. Try this - same thing just replace the old one. If that works I feel comfortable setting up an actual download to get more eyes on it.

 

DeviousFollowersFramework.dll 1.12 MB · 1 download

This version seems to work, from what I can tell! I'll keep looking for bugs o7

[Aldid]

Ahh, one issue found! The deal selection doesn't seem to respect which deals you've disabled, neither for classic nor modular deals

[ponzipyramid]

7 minutes ago, Aldid said:

Ahh, one issue found! The deal selection doesn't seem to respect which deals you've disabled, neither for classic nor modular deals

 

Okay, found that one too. I'm gonna revise my earlier statement - I'll post fixes as I make them. Rather not wait until the maid deal is done to find out that I've completely busted things in the process of fixing things.

[ponzipyramid]

We officially have a file page! This should hopefully accelerate bug reports and consequently the stability of the framework prior to new content.

 

If you run into issues with the framework please post them there (@Aldid I've already added yours to the bugtracking post in the thread). This thread will mostly be for suggesting new deal/event/job ideas and getting feedback on work-in-progress add on packs.

[lordgdavid]

Not sure how to implement this, but I have an idea. Would be curious if you like it or not. 

 

In mcm there could be a debt amount configured as X. If your current debt goes above X the follower could have a chance also configured per hour to ask the player for "favors" such as a blowjob, sex, the PCs milk, flashing, dirtytalk or anything really. If the player accepts, the debt could be reduced. Lets say half as much as it is configured to reduce for a deal made. If not, the follower could have another point added to boredom. Similar things are already there with the bondage game and the gambling game, but frankly those are way too inconsistent.

[ponzipyramid]

1 hour ago, lordgdavid said:

Not sure how to implement this, but I have an idea. Would be curious if you like it or not. 

 

In mcm there could be a debt amount configured as X. If your current debt goes above X the follower could have a chance also configured per hour to ask the player for "favors" such as a blowjob, sex, the PCs milk, flashing, dirtytalk or anything really. If the player accepts, the debt could be reduced. Lets say half as much as it is configured to reduce for a deal made. If not, the follower could have another point added to boredom. Similar things are already there with the bondage game and the gambling game, but frankly those are way too inconsistent.

 

These sound like a good fit for the proposed event system wherein your follower will trigger a certain event given certain conditions. DFC already has a few of these that are dependent on low willpower and wearing certain devices e.g. being collared when visiting the Jarl of Markarth.

 

This system is yet to be implemented but these should be doable when its finished.

[Trill0]

Hope this mod goes places!

 

A simple deal idea:  

You must hire another follower.

 

This already has synergy with debt interest increase per follower, other deals have another npc to use, the new follower will become your new DF if you don't dismiss them first.  PC should probably have some time to find one before being punished like a day maybe.  Of course, you can't dismiss the other follower when this deal is active without being punished.

 

This could lead into other deals relating to the other person.  It could also be taken multiple times.

 

 

 

Other idea:

Punishments could be more ... creative.

[ponzipyramid]

4 hours ago, Trill0 said:

Hope this mod goes places!

 

A simple deal idea:  

You must hire another follower.

 

This already has synergy with debt interest increase per follower, other deals have another npc to use, the new follower will become your new DF if you don't dismiss them first.  PC should probably have some time to find one before being punished like a day maybe.  Of course, you can't dismiss the other follower when this deal is active without being punished.

 

This could lead into other deals relating to the other person.  It could also be taken multiple times.

 

I think this was discussed a bit in the original DFC roadmap. Lupine was postulating about two kinds of multi-follower relationships, one where you and another follower are submissive to one dominant follower (similar to SLTR's playmate) and one where both dominate you. This is pretty complicated but may be doable down the line.

 

4 hours ago, Trill0 said:

Other idea:

Punishments could be more ... creative

 

Assuming this in regards to enslavement punishments? Or something else?

 

I'm personally interested in improving enslavment in general since it'd fill a niche no other player slavery mod is filling. IMO, Maria Eden is too disruptive to the actual game, Submissive Lola lacks the immersive debt-based tumble into slavery and is somewhat predicated on playing an inherently submissive character, and SD+ is somewhat boring after the few first times. A player slavery mod that could retain DFC's mechanics and design philosophy sounds really compelling to me.

 

For anyone who hasn't seen them, when I say roadmap, I mean these two blog posts. There's a lot of great stuff in the posts themselves as well as the ensuing discussion.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by ponzipyramid

[Nikett7]

Hello, thank you very much for your work and resurrection of the development of this mod.
I would like to write a couple of ideas that I would be interested in:

1) The ability follower to turn on the vibration of the piercing / plugs to increase the excitation to a certain threshold as in Submissive Lola. This feature is sorely lacking considering there are so many piercing and plug deals. Also, of course, you need a deal for a vaginal plug. It would also be cool if the follower turned on plugs when the hero is talking to people or merchants.

 

2) In my opinion, now the mod contains little sex. All sex is mainly initiated by the player, or very rarely by some scenarios from the follower. I would like to see a deal where the body becomes the property of the companion and he can fuck the character at any time without asking. There should be deep frequency settings for this, for example I would like it to happen every 4 game hours or more often, with options for other followers or citizens to participate. If there are deals on plugs, the plugs should be removed for the duration of sex. I know that this is in other mods, but I would like to see this possibility in the concept of debt repayment.

 

3) Various humiliating deals are definitely needed, for example, you can make a character serve as a personal toilet for a companion. Once in a while, the companion causes the character to kneel, open their mouth, and urinate on him/her. Accompanied by funny comments. If that sounds too much, then it can be done when the character is enslaved.

 

4) The settings for the slave mode are very necessary, at the moment there are almost none. For example, what devices are required to be worn in slavery? I have nothing against mittens and boots, but in my opinion they are not implemented in the best way and, roughly speaking, the mittens look like boxing gloves, which looks strange in Skyrim. Because of this, I never used slave mode in this mod. these things cannot be disabled.

[asdfabcd]

Just off the top of my head, I'd like to see a deal where your follower can hypnotize you. Really, I just want more hypnosis mods for Skyrim in general, but I also think it could be a fun addition. On higher levels, your follower could even do things like take money from you while you're hypnotized, undercutting the debt forgiven.

[Aldid]

1 hour ago, asdfabcd said:

Just off the top of my head, I'd like to see a deal where your follower can hypnotize you. Really, I just want more hypnosis mods for Skyrim in general, but I also think it could be a fun addition.

I've been thinking about something like that as well! There really aren't enough mods for stuff like that, and DF feels perfect for it.

 

My general idea for it would be that the DF demands to hypnotize the PC whenever they go to bed to "help them get more restful sleep". Each session would add to general Hypnosis progress, while also adding random hypnotic suggestions with various triggers and of varying severity (wearing armour feels unbearably hot for a time, talking to follower increases arousal, follower can snap fingers to cause PC to orgasm, having something in their mouth makes their mind go blank, etc. etc.). Higher hypnosis progress unlocks more extreme consequences, and progress takes a while to decay even after getting rid of the deal.

 

Essentially it's a deal that would start out fairly harmless, but grow more severe and accumulate more lasting effects the more suggestible the PC becomes.

[Trill0]

16 hours ago, ponzipyramid said:

Assuming this in regards to enslavement punishments? Or something else?

 

I'm personally interested in improving enslavment in general since it'd fill a niche no other player slavery mod is filling. IMO, Maria Eden is too disruptive to the actual game, Submissive Lola lacks the immersive debt-based tumble into slavery and is somewhat predicated on playing an inherently submissive character, and SD+ is somewhat boring after the few first times. A player slavery mod that could retain DFC's mechanics and design philosophy sounds really compelling to me.

 

 

By punishments I meant the "punishment debt" under Costs, where the follower adds debt for failure to do things.  The follower could do a whole host of other things to remind you not to disobey them.

 

For enslavement stuff, Visio Diaboli is working on a "you are the follower" mod, inversion of power: "https://www.loverslab.com/topic/186718-idea-prototype-mod-for-playing-as-an-npcs-follower/", so that's something to consider integrating for when it releases.

 

[BYJE137]

On 5/15/2023 at 12:58 AM, Trill0 said:

 

By punishments I meant the "punishment debt" under Costs, where the follower adds debt for failure to do things.  The follower could do a whole host of other things to remind you not to disobey them.

 

 

Yep.

Initiate sex?

Another option might be to equip restraints (configurable device options!) for specific time period, much lower than standard deals (configurable, was thinking hours not days). A little bit like the chains of debt outcome, where they're equipped until you reduce your debt, but based on duration instead (and shorter than regular deals).

 

Third option: Steal configurable amount of money from player. Money is lost from inventory. Maybe added to follower's inventory, but don't know if this is the best option?

 

Another idea: In DFC there's a very simple gambling setup, where you hope for the best and usually end up with more debt so it doesn't make much sense to use it. Maybe more stuff could be added there - fx an 'investment quest', get X gold now, pay back X+(configurable amount (%)) later. Ideally the investment money would be be tracked separately from the follower debt, it would make it easier to not just have this kind of quest automatically lead to deals and punishments for harsh settings right from the get-go, which is what happens with the gambling option in the mod now - the idea would be for your follower to provide you with some free cash for a (short?) period of time to give you an opportunity to get ahead, so that you can pay your follower more in the future. But if you don't pay it back...

 

Third idea: It has bugged me that if there are some outcomes you don't like in one of the levels of the modular deals, deselecting those deals may automatically mean that some other deals in other levels become unavailable because there's no available path for them. If you have 4 level 1 and level 2 deals available you can max experience 2 level 3 outcomes. Also, if a deal of a particular type is active in the classic deal section (e.g. gag) then you can't be equipped a gag in the modular deals, and so that's automatically also one less path to a level 3 deal there. The fact that you were equipped a gag in a classic deal should not in my opinion stop you from getting an innkeeper deal later, and getting boots in a modular deal should not stop you from being able to get a gag deal in the classical deals, but that's how it works.
One option to solve this might be to simply add more available deals to minimize the problem, potentially also more than one deal of the same kind. 'You pay off the gag deal in the modular deal it is coupled to, but you still have a gag deal from the classical section so you're not quite getting rid of it yet.'

[BYJE137]

A separate new theft deal could also be considered. Follower will remove X gold per day (configurable, ideally level-dependent) from your inventory, making it harder for you to save up money to pay off your existing deals and easier for you to end up with more deals because you can't keep up..

 

Another deal I was thinking of: 'Badmouthing'. Deal means you get a bounty of X gold added (configurable, ideally level-dependent) once per day in the hold you're present at the time it is evaluated. The follower will be saying nasty things about you, and the guards end up hearing about it and would like to ask you a few questions.

[ponzipyramid]

First add on deal is finally live! If you've used Wartimes, some of this deal's mechanics should be familiar (although it has significantly fewer features).

 

This version is primarily for testers but I think I've arrived at a solid workflow for mod authors to add new stuff. After bug fixes, subsequent deals should be relatively straightforward to develop and launch.

Edited June 28, 2023 by ponzipyramid

[Aldid]

On 6/28/2023 at 9:38 PM, ponzipyramid said:

First add on deal is finally live! If you've used Wartimes, some of this deal's mechanics should be familiar (although it has significantly fewer features).

 

This version is primarily for testers but I think I've arrived at a solid workflow for mod authors to add new stuff. After bug fixes, subsequent deals should be relatively straightforward to develop and launch.

Nice! Looking forward to trying this out once I've got my skyrim setup back online!

[Lozeak]

This is a cool idea and it was the an idea I had intended to do. This one of the reasons I made a modular deal system. 

 

Anyway I just wanted to explain some of the work/ideas I did for this... 

 

Willpower and other things were injected into update.esm

 

In simply slavery it has a sendmodevent system to register and add additional mods to MCM. (A reason why I worked on this mod and that it was going to be abandoned because of it's zaz requirement.) 

 

Lozeak device controller created a system to add other mod content without the need of a dependancy via a JSON. Tho it's glitchy and pushes the limits with what you can do with JSON and arrays. 

 

Anyway if I was going to do something like this... 

Make DF a master of the mod so that it's easier to add the topics you need in to start deals and such. 

Then for the MCM I would have a JSON and use a similar implementation to simply slavery. 

 

When an expansion mod starts it check the JSON for it's esp and when it's not there add to the array deal, stage, esp name, other variables like send mod event string,is it on or off ect. 

 

In DF or all expansions on initialize it checks the JSON and if the esp still exists... If not delete it. 

Then just add the deals to the modular mcm or in it's own menu and when activated it will use a send mod event to tell the mode to enable it. 

 

As for wanting to have 3 stages you can have stage 2 require stage 1 in the expansion mod and stage 3 require stage 2.

And in the MCM you when it's enabled the expansion mod can enable all 3. Or have it as a separate section and use the modular deal system. 

 

Either way, you could be doing a different and better way but maybe this might help (hence why I posted) but it's nice to see this is happening as when I built the mod I tried to make it in a way so this could potentially happen so thanks. 

 

As for permission you asked about in the op... You are making a mod for a mod that basically belongs to loverslab so you should be ok. It's very likely lupine00 will feel the same but you would have to be respectful to any plans of his that this mod might harm (unlikely none though). That said when I made this mod I wanted this to be possible so I'd hope everyone is ok with it. 

 

Offtopic... As I haven't posted for a long time and will likely not again for a while for those who wonder... I am very thankful for those that have continued this mod and the people that have enjoyed it and posted there experiences of the mod. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Lozeak

[Mark Silver]

If someone could add a bridge between Devious Followers and the Whorecrux mod that would be amazing. Like for example the follower could accept the Dragonborn's soulgem and modify it in exchange for debt relief however in doing so the player becomes easier to manipulate/unable to disagree with worse and worse deals. Maybe adding even worse kinds of deals if you allow things to progress to a certain point (Like 80% of the Dragonborn's soul has been modified by the follower or something configurable). The Whorecrux mod has so much potential for things like this.

[Aldid]

It's still going to be some time before I can get a working skyrim setup together again, but I've been thinking about a couple of deal ideas in the meantime that I can't get out of my head:

 

 

Painting Deal

Inspired by the painting quest in ToH. The follower will demand to paint the PC before allowing them to sleep. The nature of the painting depends on location, willpower, and possibly internal progression. I.e, at max willpower it might just be a fairly normal painting (although usually still at least a nude), while at low willpower the PC might have to take more extreme poses (smiling with dildo inside, masturbating, wearing devices, possibly sex with nearby NPCs, etc.)

 

Stretch goal: The follower may later sell these paintings to certain NPCs, triggering a short scene, decreasing willpower further, and adding some appropriate SLSF fame in that area. The dialogue of the scene depends on the nature of the latest paintings done.

 

Extra stretch goal: The PC can negotiate the nature of the painting being done, they can however only bargain for a slightly better option than what the follower first suggested, and the chance of success is dependent on willpower. For example, a painting of the PC having sex could only be bargained up to a depraved nude painting, while a tasteful nude painting could be bargained up to a clothed painting instead.

 

 

 

Bathing Deal

This deal integrates with bathing mods to punish the PC for not taking proper care of their hygiene. When dirt is above a certain threshold the follower will make some idle comment about the PC needing to wash. If the PC is still above the threshold a configurable amount of time later, debt is added periodically.

 

Additionally, the bathing deal could function as a sort of Piercing Deal Light, where the follower "offers" to "help clean" the PC. The result of this would again be willpower dependent, but the follower will tend to focus more of their attention on the PC's private parts. At very high willpower not much will happen, while at low willpower the follower may abandon all pretenses and explicitly grope the PC, seeking to make them cum or coerce them into sex.

 

This deal, as well as the Painting Deal above, would probably mainly have to work through minor dialogue and text popups (like the piercing deal and tape gag deal). Which isn't to say that there aren't ways to get similar things to animate properly (specific SL animations, Horrible Harassment, etc.) but it would probably be a lot...

 

 

Hypnosis Deal

The most open-ended and undefined idea. The general gist would be that the follower insists on helping the PC sleep, while in actuality casting illusion magic on them to make them more suggestible and to implant hypnotic triggers and commands. Each time the PC sleeps, a semi-random additional trigger or effect is added.

 

Essentially it's a deal that starts off with fairly mild effects, but the longer you spend with it the more debilitating effects you accumulate as the follower's grip on the PC's mind tightens.

 

Some examples of possible effects:

PC wakes up the next day believing they are dressed when they are not (emperor's clothes). They will realize their state either after a (long) period of time has passed, or through NPC interactions.

Armour may suddenly and randomly grow unbearably hot, granting several debilitating debuffs unless the PC is nude.

PC gains arousal whenever speaking to follower, and feels strong pleasure when accepting deals. Perhaps receiving punishment debt feels directly painful too?

Occasionallt the PC feels compelled to compliment their follower. These compliments grow more extreme and self-deprecating with time/low willpower/hypnosis progress

The PC becomes unable to cum unless they ask someone for permission first. This someone may be the follower, or a random passersby. Increases slut fame, lowers willpower, and isn't guaranteed to work (DF may say yes for small debt addition, NPCs more likely to say yes depending on relationship)

 

There's a distinct lack of hypnosis related mods for Skyrim, which I'd like to see remedied. But doing something like that well would probably take a lot of work...

 

 

Importantly, these effects only fade over time, not when the deal is bought out of. So having the deal for an  extended period of time can have quite lasting consequences.

 

Cum addict deal

Basically just the current skooma deal, but for SL survival cum addicction. The follower makes the excuse that the PC must eat more protein to build muscle.

 

Stretch goal: at low will/high addiction the PC may be required to beg to receive cum directly from the source instead. Asking for cum will still satisfy the deal, but the follower won't provide any, instead saying that the PC has had enough.

 

Flashing Deal

The follower argues that the PC is too boring to talk to, and kindly offers to help keep people engaged in conversation by occasionally flashing the PC's privates.

 

Tattoo Deal

The follower asks to use the PC's skin as a canvas for their art. Essentially just an excuse to apply more rapetatoos. After a set time or when a certain number of tats have expired, the follower will apply new tats.

 

Stretch goal: Automatically apply appropriate tats from Supplemental Slavetats by blahity.

 

 

 

Useless/Useful deal series

So a common thing people roleplay when playing mods like DF is as a character with little to no actual combat ability who must rely on their follower(s) to survive battles, potentially by acting as a support role. Personally this isn't something I find that appealing, but I do really like the many allusions to the PC being inept as an adventurer that DF has. So I would love to try implementing some deals around the theme of the follower attempting to discredit the PC's combat abilities and relegating them to a supportive/auxillary role in the party. Essentially they would try to gaslight the PC into believing they're helpless, regardless of whether that's actually the case or not.

 

The following deals are all variations on that theme, and some of them would probably require earlier ones to form satisfactory progression.

 

Sexy Armour deal

Basically the PC is forced to wear at least somewhat provocative armour/clothing at all times, with the argument that they're more useful as eyecandy or a distraction than as a fighter. Detection of appropriate outfits could work a variety of ways (keywords, SL aroused clothes toggle, State of Dress Erotic value, milk addict selection, etc.).

 

The impact of this deal varies quite a lot depending on how one's game is set up in terms of armour sluttiness. Still, even if most armours are considered sufficient there may still arise situations where the PC is forced to go naked because nothing else available satisfies the DF.

 

Equipment value deal

The follower argues that the PC is too inept to be using the best equipment, and that all the best gear should be given to them instead. Whenever the PC is using weapons or armours that are more valuable and/or have higher ratings, the follower will approach the PC and demand that they switch items. Different types of items at different willpower levels will trigger different dialogue responses. At high willpower, the follower might argue more reasonably ("you could cut yourself with that thing! Here, take my old training blade instead.", while low willpower dialogue would be more blunt and degrading ("Stupid girl, what have I told you about flinging spells around? Strip off those robes before you blow yourself up")

 

Usually the PC just receives whatever the follower was using in return, but sometimes they may be given an insultingly bad replacement instead (wooden/iron sword, rags, etc.)

 

Alternatively, the swapping might have to be done manually by the player through a dialogue tree.

 

Enemy distraction deal

The PC is told that the only way they can be useful in battle is as a meatshield or distraction (primarily by being forced to have sex with enemies)

 

I have two ideas for how this could be done: The first would be that the game would periodically scan for groups of valid enemies while in the wilds/dungeons, and trigger a forcegreet from the follower if any are found. The follower demands that the PC put on their "distraction outfit" (whore outfit) and confiscates their weapons. They are then forced to follow along as the follower offers their body to the enemies in exchange for safe passage (although the follower will betray this deal once the enemies are distracted/tired out)

 

Alternatively this surrender could be triggered by the follower reaching a certain health threshold, giving the PC a reason to protect their follower at the expense of their own safety.

 

The result of the sex scene would depend on what other mods are installed. If the PC is a succubus (or has similar powers through other mods) then they would use those powers to weaken or kill the enemies. If not, the mod could be configured to apply a fairly harsh but short damage debuff to any actor that has recently orgasmed in a SL scene, to justify why the follower would use this tactic. Or the ordeal may serve no purpose other than to break the PC, or to actually pass without fighting.

 

Additionally, a similar event may be triggered as a game even without this deal. It would involve the follower giving the PC some type of potion that functions as an airborne aphrodisiac, and also kills any npc the PC has sex with. Possibly only when nearby specific known appropriate bandit hideouts.

 

 

False hero(inne) deal

Essentially the same idea as above, but instead focus is placed either on the player merely acting as a hero/adventurer, or that "such a brave and special hero deserves a special outfit". In either case, the PC is given a set of armour that looks imposing and powerful at a glance, but is in fact at closer inspection essentially a flimsy simulacrum of effective armour, excelling only in how easily it can be torn off to allow for sex. The mesh of this armour can be customized like the whore armour.

 

I'm not sure how it would actually work in gameplay though. My only idea so far is to have it gradually increase arousal of the PC and their enemies while in combat, triggering a loss of control that leads to sex. 

 

Potentially it would be thematically appropriate for the armour to drain enemy vitality and channel it into the follower, but not sure about it.

 

Theoretically it could have stats that scale with arousal to add a razor's edge to walk  (keeping your arousal high enough to have power, but not so high as to lose control)? Although I don't see that ever being balanced even decently well.

 

To prevent the PC from just masturbating after every fight to keep arousal low, the armour might prevent orgasms from masturbation ("because heroinne's don't do that sort of thing") Although admittedly I just think I'm infatuated with that concept, it probably wouldn't actually translate well to gameplay.

 

The deal could also interact with other deals like the Whore deal, changing the framing of the dialogue from "failed adventurer acting as a whore" to "whore cosplaying as an adventurer".

 

 

 

 

 

Those are about all the decent ideas I had! Some more refined than others, but most of the interesting ones miles and miles away from ever being properly implemented...

Still, I'm looking forward to seeing more deals implemented into the framework once it's more complete! Even after playing a lot of modded skyrim DF, remains my favourite mod on this site, and I would be delighted to see it continue to grow and change!

Edited August 4, 2023 by Aldid

[Anunya]

A simple deal I'd like to see is to trigger the Pet Collar mod. I really enjoy that mod, but the only way to activate it is to deliberately turn it on in the MCM which undermines the immersion a bit. It'd be just lovely if DFC could incorporate it.

 

I figure some sort of series of deals where you have to wear it in certain location types and/ or for a minimum number of hours per day - asking to have the collar put on or removed - with the third tier deal being wearing it all the time.

 

Alternately, wearing the active Pet Collar could just be a new level 3 deal.

[Darkwing241]

The painting deal is a pretty clever idea.  At worst it would be a few quick poses, is there a way to actually create in game pictures?  I've never seen anything even remotely like that in Skyrim.  Either way  It nicely fits the progression for a devious follower.  The tier 1 could be clothed  with innocent poses, Tier 2 sexy poses, tier 3 clearly pornographic poses.   I wouldn't mess too much with clothing control for these as it would create problematic overlap with other deals.  Keeping deals simple can have a big payoff, a little narrative space allows players to fit things in with their own imagination.  Adding some one shot dialogues could cover the pictures not "actually existing" and still having them be fun.  Maybe the PC can sell the higher level pictures for a pittance of gold?

 

The bathing deal doesn't seem like much of a "deal" to be honest.  I love including bathing in skyrim, but what would the stages be?  Mostly this sounds like it would just be playing bathing scenes that the player would already be doing, and then playing sexlab scenes.  I get the narrative of what you are describing but what you are describing really just relies on have a series of perfectly fitting animations to play.  To me the core kink of this deal would be the DF intruding on what would normally be a wholly personal part of the PCs life.  Finding a way to make the normal actions of the PCs usual once a day bath be in service to the DF is what will make this deal good.  Maybe something like 

 

Tier 1: "look you stink, we are supposed to be heroes, we need people to think well of us, it's important that you aren't covered in filthy dirt"  Maintain a certain cleanliness, or just clean once per day

Tier 2: "You are giving me a bad reputation, It's important that when people see me that I'm in desirable company.  When you want to talk to me make sure you've cleaned up first"  The PC must bathe before interacting with the DF

Tier 3: "When I present you to someone it reflects on me, It is important that you are clean and pure."  The DF will occasionally block dialogue with other NPCs and demand the PC goes and readies herself first.  She must bathe, and ask the DF for her opinion on the PCs readiness.  The DF gives a random approving line and then if the PCs willpower is low she recommends the PC masturbate to orgasm to get a good healthy glow going.

 

Something like this would get you away from the deal just being a sexlab scene player, and is still delightfully submissive as the PC moves away from cleaning herself for herself and more and more towards readying herself to worship at the altar of the DF.  It also has a nice progression from 'reasonable thing to ask a friend' to 'I am your mistress/master'.   The whole point of the mod is the progression and the narrative not the sexlab scene.

 

The Tattoo deal kind of lives and dies by how good of a tattoo pack you can curate.  The idea of a "friend" being a tattoo artist and convincing the PC to get some cool yet subtly sexy tattoos, and then in tier 2 convincing her to embrace her feminine power with some slutty tattoos she can hide under her clothes and then finally in tier 3 demanding that the PC keep track of her sexual body count and tattooing "slut" on her forehead... Well that's a great narrative.  The only problem I see is that you would need to either curate yourself, or being willing to create a lot of work for mod users.  A slightly mismanaged list is going to end up with slut on the forehead for tier 1 and a tribal armband for tier 3.  It's honestly not a headache I would want to deal with, I'd mostly be disabling this one despite liking the narrative (although I admit I personally find MOST tattoos very un-sexy)

 

The Flashings Deal I like the fantasy, but this definitely is going to be one that needs just the right animation, otherwise you get locked into just doing a dialogue only deal at all tiers or creating a reskinned clothing control deal.  I'm pretty sure that animation doesn't exist and can't even really be created, IRL the transition from clothed to nude is very sexy, but Skyrim just can't do it.

 

Generally my opinion on magic and mind control is that you shouldn't use it unless you have to.  The Hypnosis Deal, skips over a lot of the narrative the mod is trying to build.  Devious Followers is essentially a foreplay mod if you can just mind control the PC into submission, the whole financial trap and gaslighting seems more than a little superfluous.  

 

The Equipment Deals sound fun on paper, but clothing control has long been a holy grail of Skyrim kink modding, and no one has really done it well yet.  There just isn't a great way to categorize clothing without asking each player to build a massive database of clothing and tagging each piece, and then the user gets to just use one or two of those in game.   So you might as well just limit it to a single "slut armor," and then you  have looped back around to what's already in DF.  

 

The Enemy distraction deal is a good idea as well but I think it would be problematic to actually play with as it shuts off most regular skyrim game play and locks the player into getting spammed with sexlab scenes.  sexlab is only really fun when the player wants to watch it, otherwise its really REALLY annoying.  The narrative of the DF turning the PC into a "non-hero" is the core of what DF is doing as a mod.  All of the little things the mod is doing already are trying to add up to this, it's just the sex scenes are played by a defeat mod or a prostitution mod ect.  If the goal is to give the PC opportunities to solve things with her body, what about adding some one shot events during vanilla quests that gives options for sex outside of the usual defeat/prostitution?  That's starting to sound a lot like sexlab solutions now that I think about it though.

[Aldid]

@Darkwing241 Thank you for the feedback!

 

I'll just start by clarifying that most of the deals that you remarked probably wouldn't have enough content for three stages were in fact intended to work closer to Modular deals, so they wouldn't necessarily have to support 3 full stages (although I really like the progression paths you've laid out). While some could definitely stand some additional progression (lewd paintings to sexually explicit ones for the Painting Deal, etc.), most would definitely be unable to have enough substance for 3 whole distinct stages, which is why I hesitate to design them as such...

 

1 hour ago, Darkwing241 said:

The bathing deal doesn't seem like much of a "deal" to be honest.  I love including bathing in skyrim, but what would the stages be?  Mostly this sounds like it would just be playing bathing scenes that the player would already be doing, and then playing sexlab scenes.  I get the narrative of what you are describing but what you are describing really just relies on have a series of perfectly fitting animations to play.  To me the core kink of this deal would be the DF intruding on what would normally be a wholly personal part of the PCs life.  Finding a way to make the normal actions of the PCs usual once a day bath be in service to the DF is what will make this deal good.  Maybe something like 

 

Tier 1: "look you stink, we are supposed to be heroes, we need people to think well of us, it's important that you aren't covered in filthy dirt"  Maintain a certain cleanliness, or just clean once per day

Tier 2: "You are giving me a bad reputation, It's important that when people see me that I'm in desirable company.  When you want to talk to me make sure you've cleaned up first"  The PC must bathe before interacting with the DF

Tier 3: "When I present you to someone it reflects on me, It is important that you are clean and pure."  The DF will occasionally block dialogue with other NPCs and demand the PC goes and readies herself first.  She must bathe, and ask the DF for her opinion on the PCs readiness.  The DF gives a random approving line and then if the PCs willpower is low she recommends the PC masturbate to orgasm to get a good healthy glow going.

 

Something like this would get you away from the deal just being a sexlab scene player, and is still delightfully submissive as the PC moves away from cleaning herself for herself and more and more towards readying herself to worship at the altar of the DF.  It also has a nice progression from 'reasonable thing to ask a friend' to 'I am your mistress/master'.   The whole point of the mod is the progression and the narrative not the sexlab scene.

 

 

My initial thoughts for this one was mainly to lean into the DF intruding on the PC's privacy and generally pushing boundaries, but I adore this angle! I still stand by my original idea being a functional single-stage deal, but this progression really works. Only thing being that the final stage is relatively tame compared to, for example, the final stage of the Slut deal.

 

1 hour ago, Darkwing241 said:

The Tattoo deal kind of lives and dies by how good of a tattoo pack you can curate.  The idea of a "friend" being a tattoo artist and convincing the PC to get some cool yet subtly sexy tattoos, and then in tier 2 convincing her to embrace her feminine power with some slutty tattoos she can hide under her clothes and then finally in tier 3 demanding that the PC keep track of her sexual body count and tattooing "slut" on her forehead... Well that's a great narrative.  The only problem I see is that you would need to either curate yourself, or being willing to create a lot of work for mod users.  A slightly mismanaged list is going to end up with slut on the forehead for tier 1 and a tribal armband for tier 3.  It's honestly not a headache I would want to deal with, I'd mostly be disabling this one despite liking the narrative (although I admit I personally find MOST tattoos very un-sexy)

I agree that what tattoos you choose to include can make or break the deal, but with a decent basic pack and the Devious Follower Specific tats from Sexy Supplemental Slavetats I think you'd end up with a pretty good selection. Actually, the main reason I thought of making a tattoo deal was just as a way to immersively have the DF apply deal-relevant tats without the player having to manually and unimmersively curate them.

 

1 hour ago, Darkwing241 said:

The Flashings Deal I like the fantasy, but this definitely is going to be one that needs just the right animation, otherwise you get locked into just doing a dialogue only deal at all tiers or creating a reskinned clothing control deal.  I'm pretty sure that animation doesn't exist and can't even really be created, IRL the transition from clothed to nude is very sexy, but Skyrim just can't do it.

Honestly, I think you're right. I would love to see something like this properly implemented, but it just isn't great in Skyrim (outside of that one nexus mod that allows partial undressing, but it's very limited)

 

1 hour ago, Darkwing241 said:

Generally my opinion on magic and mind control is that you shouldn't use it unless you have to.  The Hypnosis Deal, skips over a lot of the narrative the mod is trying to build.  Devious Followers is essentially a foreplay mod if you can just mind control the PC into submission, the whole financial trap and gaslighting seems more than a little superfluous.  

I see your point, but I will stand by this idea, mainly because I think there's a very large difference between hypnosis and mind control. Hypnosis operates on suggestion, and on some level it will not work unless the subject relaxes and allows themself to be influenced. The DF can, by tricking the PC into allowing them access to them in this vulnerable state, begin to subtly influence the PC in ways they at first fail to notice, and that they on some level don't fully want to resist.

 

Contrast this with simple mind control, which I frankly find entirely unsexy and dull. If someone can be completely enthralled with a snap of the fingers or through some exotic drug, then where's the intrigue and progression? The delicious semi-voluntary descent into debauchery? It's all just pointless.

 

While the hypnosis deal is still easily the least clearly defined and most annoying to implement, I think it can be done in a way that doesn't subvert all the DF's other efforts, but rather adds yet another hook with which to ensnare the PC.

 

1 hour ago, Darkwing241 said:

The Equipment Deals sound fun on paper, but clothing control has long been a holy grail of Skyrim kink modding, and no one has really done it well yet.  There just isn't a great way to categorize clothing without asking each player to build a massive database of clothing and tagging each piece, and then the user gets to just use one or two of those in game.   So you might as well just limit it to a single "slut armor," and then you  have looped back around to what's already in DF.  

While I agree that the process of categorizing one's armour sets isn't particularly fun, doing so is getting easier and easier over time. There's a bunch of ready-made keyword patches for various mods, and failing that people can always just use Aroused Extended or MMA to categorize armor pieces as they equip them. As you said, limiting the deal to a single mod-provided armor would be quite pointless when the Whore Armour deal already exists (beyond making some marginal distinction regarding how revealing the sets are). What I would want is simply a mechanism to force the PC to wear more revealing armour, without severely limiting options or immediately being forced to wear something obscene. As it stands, there just isn't much reason to equip anything other than "standard armour" when roleplaying as a dragonborn who still considers themselves to be a normal hero.

 

 

1 hour ago, Darkwing241 said:

The Enemy distraction deal is a good idea as well but I think it would be problematic to actually play with as it shuts off most regular skyrim game play and locks the player into getting spammed with sexlab scenes.  sexlab is only really fun when the player wants to watch it, otherwise its really REALLY annoying.  The narrative of the DF turning the PC into a "non-hero" is the core of what DF is doing as a mod.  All of the little things the mod is doing already are trying to add up to this, it's just the sex scenes are played by a defeat mod or a prostitution mod ect.  If the goal is to give the PC opportunities to solve things with her body, what about adding some one shot events during vanilla quests that gives options for sex outside of the usual defeat/prostitution?  That's starting to sound a lot like sexlab solutions now that I think about it though.

You have a point here. I've been thinking of ways to bring that particular part of the roleplay to fruition, but it really does run the risk of being far too intrusive. For the record though, I didn't mean that the follower would always demand the PC solve problems with their body, just something that has a certain chance of happening occasionally (on a long cooldown of course). 

 

Another version of that deal would be to simply disallow the PC from using anything other than support spells. This would of course not be particularly appealing to most people, but it could be a useful deal for people who already roleplay the relationship that way.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Aldid

[Darkwing241]

6 hours ago, Aldid said:

Another version of that deal would be to simply disallow the PC from using anything other than support spells. This would of course not be particularly appealing to most people, but it could be a useful deal for people who already roleplay the relationship that way.

I have several character archetypes that I use when I play DF games, and a classic "shed no blood" DnD style cleric is one of them.  Use a mace/shield and non-destruction magic, with a focus on restoration, summoning and blocking.  For each character the roleplay with the DF is slightly different.  The Cleric usually has a "real hero" DF, since she doesn't actually kill most enemies herself, and the best weapons and armor usually go to the follower by need rather than some rule.  It doesn't really need an enforcement mechanism to play that style

 

Honestly the biggest pain when playing that style is that there just isn't much to do as far as buff spells go, and they all tend to be defensive.  I often run into situations where the follower functionally doesn't deal any damage to certain high level enemies.  I'm not sure what the exactly the answer is for that but this may be a situation for the carrot rather than than stick.  Not everything the DF does has to be strictly negative though, they can actually be "helpful." Maybe the way to do this one is not a deal but some sort of support based "reward"?  Maybe implement some mechanic to make the DF a little more heroic?  There are a lot of ways you could do something like that.

 

-stat boosts: themed through an item, or maybe even just an MCM option

-better spells themed around playing in a support role, maybe an alternative to courage that just increases defenses.  So there is some gameplay for the player, choosing how to empower the DF

-stat transference: Spell/Item/Training that moves some form of combat power to the DF.

 

I have a really specific fantasy around a heroine type character changing things about herself and her daily routine and then being caught off guard by the atrophy of her heroic abilities.  Things like morning makeup routines replacing weapon/armor maintenance,  ultra feminine and impractical exercise routines replacing practical practice and training, or normally intimidating amazons spending so much time being seductive and agreeable that they do it by accident when they are trying to be fierce. 

 

IRL There is something about a fitness nut spending 8 hours in a gym every day and instead of ending up as an elite athlete their imbalanced workout ends them up  being fairly clumsy with few practical skills, and the worlds most glorious ass.  After all the blood sweat and tears, all their work earns them is a need for breast implants and a job sucking on a dildo for onlyfans.

 

[ponzipyramid]

Just an FYI, I'm turning my attention back to DFF for a little bit. Since Lozeak and Nomkaz allowed me continue DF development (thanks to both of them) I'm currently repackaging DFF to be a standalone fork of DFC. In Lupine's absence, this is the best I can do regarding permissions, but if they come back and want my version taken down I will of course do that.

 

This means that DFC SE will no longer be a dependency and I'll have more freedom to restructure things the way I need to. Right now I'm converting the built in deals to behave more like addon deals so that everything is uniform - which should eliminate some bugs. This will all take some time but after that we should be in the clear to do what we're all actually interested in - add new stuff to DFC.

Edited September 9, 2023 by ponzipyramid

[Darkwing241]

I'm glad to hear you got in touch with lupine00 they disappeared pretty suddenly with seemingly big plans on the way.  It pretty normal for big mod makers to quit, but usually they still visit and just stop modding, or have some big dramatic fight and storm off or something.  Makes me nervous when someone just disappears.