[SUGGESTION] slot changer for armor & clothing

[qalavix]

This one I think would be Really Hard, and not in a Schlongs Of Skyrim sort of way.

 

 

Too many times I've found that some lackwit who made one armor/clothing mod and some other lackwit who made another armor/clothing mod have seemingly conspired to make their armor/clothing utterly incompatible, when they shouldn't be based on what goes where.

 

So, a mod that will take a selected specific piece of clothing (easiest would probably be an MCM page that looks at all currently worn items), and in-game change its Slot number to whatever (WHATEVER) you choose, and save it to an external file (human readable, human-editable, persistent across saves; obviously needs to be load-able).  So after a few weeks of when-it-bugs-me activations here and there, I'll have all the pants I wear compatible with all the tops I wear, and I'll know that a backpack won't remove my fancy fingernails or my tiara or my horns or my tail or...

 

Or all my pairs of glasses will now be Slot 42, or 55, or 61, or WHATEVER I DAMNED WELL WANT - without having to edit two files with two different editor programs for every single item.

 

Some clothing for some insane reason is marked as being multiple slots; make it possible to ADD or REMOVE extra Slot numbers (with of course a minimum of one Slot) so I can decide if those shoes-combined-with-long-socks are, or are not, also pants/leggings.

[Psalam]

1 hour ago, qalavix said:

This one I think would be Really Hard, and not in a Schlongs Of Skyrim sort of way.

 

 

Too many times I've found that some lackwit who made one armor/clothing mod and some other lackwit who made another armor/clothing mod have seemingly conspired to make their armor/clothing utterly incompatible, when they shouldn't be based on what goes where.

 

So, a mod that will take a selected specific piece of clothing (easiest would probably be an MCM page that looks at all currently worn items), and in-game change its Slot number to whatever (WHATEVER) you choose, and save it to an external file (human readable, human-editable, persistent across saves; obviously needs to be load-able).  So after a few weeks of when-it-bugs-me activations here and there, I'll have all the pants I wear compatible with all the tops I wear, and I'll know that a backpack won't remove my fancy fingernails or my tiara or my horns or my tail or...

 

Or all my pairs of glasses will now be Slot 42, or 55, or 61, or WHATEVER I DAMNED WELL WANT - without having to edit two files with two different editor programs for every single item.

 

Some clothing for some insane reason is marked as being multiple slots; make it possible to ADD or REMOVE extra Slot numbers (with of course a minimum of one Slot) so I can decide if those shoes-combined-with-long-socks are, or are not, also pants/leggings.

While it is not as easy as a mod with a McMenu, changing body slots is really not that hard. Here is my guide on "how-to" do it.

 

 

[nilead]

 My guess would be - lackwits who make clothing and armor just make them for themselves, fitting slot setup they like and use. Then they share fruits of their lackwitted labour, for free, with anyone who might fancy using them.

 That said, reassigning slots in runtime would be cool. Obvious proplem is - it requires chaning both .esp and .nif. Apparently there is a way of foregoing .nif partition slots alltogether and relying on .esp info alone, but im not sure on exact execution. Moreover, it does not seem to be practiced by any of most prolific modmakers. While using that method it should be hypoteticly possible to create what you ask for, it requires a mesh treatment that is not really practiced.

 Realisticly, it would require an external .nif patcher accompanied with a mod capable of editing or cloning existing armor/aa records while changing partition slots in runtime. Latter is propbably possible, given keyword editing in a similar manner is a thing. First one does not really have any existing prototypes that would come to mind.

 As usefull as this idea is, there does not seem to be an easy way to implement it.

[qalavix]

22 minutes ago, nilead said:

 My guess would be - lackwits who make clothing and armor just make them for themselves, fitting slot setup they like and use. Then they share fruits of their lackwitted labour, for free, with anyone who might fancy using them.

*sighs*  I know, I know, it's just that some days it seems like it's not just coincidence that I can't wear X and Y and Z at the same time.

 

Quote

Realisticly, it would require an external .nif patcher

This is what I was hoping to avoid.  

As far as my Level-2-mod-user-self can determine, the numbers themselves are entirely arbitrary (I mean, more so than usual in a program), and have nothing to do with where the clothing/armor actually goes on the body model.  I suspect that Slot32 determines the model used for the torso, upper arms, and legs to the lower shins; and Slot31 replaces hair, Slot3x replaces feet and another slot replaces hands; but I've seen a Slot32 item covering the groin, and a number of Slot46 items on the upper torso....

 

What I was thinking was, read it in as whatever-is-in-the-NIF-and-ESP, then convert it inside the mod to whatever-you-wanted, then present the altered value to Skyrim.EXE

Clothing Mod ESP: FF237482 Red Sequined Hotpants is Slot32

Clothing Mod NIF: FF237482 Red Sequined Hotpants is Slot32

ThisMod: *does its magic* "Here, Skyrim, it's FF237482 Red Sequined Hotpants which is [Slot44] and here's the NIF for FF237482 Red Sequined Hotpants which is [Slot44]!"

Skyrim: "Uh, okay, Slot44 it is!"

 

Quote

Moreover, [way of foregoing .nif partition slots] does not seem to be practiced by any of most prolific modmakers

 

That doesn't automatically or irrevocably mean it's not doable.  

 

Quote

While it is not as easy as a mod with a McMenu [...]

I was basically hoping for EXACTLY a mod with a McMenu.  If I have to write down which ID in which mod, AND change one file in one place with one editor AND change another file in another directory with another editor FOR EACH ITEM, AND spend 5+ minutes cranking Skryim up and loading a save to check that I didn't bork it, it's not worth my time to do it for the literal dozens of items I'd like to change.

And I doubt I'm the only mod-user that gets frustrated with this.

[nilead]

1 hour ago, qalavix said:

As far as my Level-2-mod-user-self can determine, the numbers themselves are entirely arbitrary (I mean, more so than usual in a program), and have nothing to do with where the clothing/armor actually goes on the body model.

 You understand correctly, they are, but a mismatch between partitions in .nif and .esp will make items invisible in game.

While there are probable ways to make changes to  .esp work, weather it is by cloning or otherwise, im unaware of any methods to do so for .nif files.

Now, if we could change .nifs on the fly, that would open a whole lot of possibilities going far beyond wardrobe management, but i've not seen anything that would prove such a concept viable. One cannot realisticly expect COCO/NINI/SunJeong and the rest of them to change their work process, thats just not happening.

So, unless .nif's are allready set up to work without definitive partition slots, wich is a tiny part of outfits and armors available, changes to those will have to be made externally before slot swapping on the fly can be realisticly implemented.

 You're defnietly not the only one who finds reassigning item slots tedious. But as right now - this concept would either require an external patcher or an unprecedented level of wizardry. Not to mention that the rest of it, even if theaded ground, is still alot of work, and making such a patcher is quite a task in iteself.  One can hope thou.

[Vyxenne]

13 hours ago, nilead said:

Apparently there is a way of foregoing .nif partition slots alltogether and relying on .esp info alone, but im not sure on exact execution.

Based on the ones I have personally encountered, Biped Slots are specified in a nif only when the item has a BSDismemberSkinInstance. Nifs that have a NiSkinInstance instead of a BSDismemberSkinInstance, for example, do not specify the Biped Slot, so the only place the Slot is specified in such cases is in the plugin's Armor Addon (ARMA) and Armor (ARMO) blocks.

 

Theoretically, this would suggest that simply changing BSDismemberSkinInstances to NiSkinInstances would eliminate the need to edit the nif to reslot an item.... except, of course, for two pesky little details:

• The law of unintended consequences has not been repealed. There is probably a reason ousnius's NifOptimizer changes Oldrim NiSkinInstances to BSDismemberSkinInstances
• If you're going to have to open the nif in NifSkope anyway to change the BSDismemberSkinInstances to NiSkinInstances, why not just change the slot instead?

So while there is indeed a way to forego nif Partition slots altogether, it seems to me that it's a moot point and probably ill-advised.

[Vyxenne]

12 hours ago, qalavix said:

As far as my Level-2-mod-user-self can determine, the numbers themselves are entirely arbitrary (I mean, more so than usual in a program), and have nothing to do with where the clothing/armor actually goes on the body model.  I suspect that Slot32 determines the model used for the torso, upper arms, and legs to the lower shins; and Slot31 replaces hair, Slot3x replaces feet and another slot replaces hands; but I've seen a Slot32 item covering the groin, and a number of Slot46 items on the upper torso....

This is a discussion near and dear to my mix-n-matching heart. No, Biped slots are not arbirtrary, but it does seem so sometimes. There are guidelines This is the list of the body parts used by Bethesda and named in the Creation Kit:

• 30 - head
• 31 - hair
• 32 - body (full)*
• 33 - hands
• 34 - forearms
• 35 - amulet
• 36 - ring
• 37 - feet
• 38 - calves
• 39 - shield
• 40 - tail
• 41 - long hair
• 42 - circlet
• 43 - ears
• 50 - decapitated head
• 51 - decapitate
• 61 - FX01

* despite the official descriptor "FULL body," Slot 32 is used for any outerwear item that covers the upper torso, i.e. breasts; not necessarily the full body

Free body slots and reference usage

• 44 - face/mouth
• 45 - neck (like a cape, scarf, or shawl, neck-tie etc)
• 46 - chest primary or outergarment
• 47 - back (like a backpack/wings etc)
• 48 - misc/FX (use for anything that doesnt fit in the list)
• 49 - pelvis primary or outergarment
• 52 - pelvis secondary or undergarment
• 53 - leg primary or outergarment or right leg
• 54 - leg secondary or undergarment or leftt leg
• 55 - face alternate or jewelry
• 56 - chest secondary or undergarment
• 57 - shoulder
• 58 - arm secondary or undergarment or left arm
• 59 - arm primary or outergarment or right arm
• 60 - misc/FX (use for anything that doesnt fit in the list)

But not every mod author follows them. Plus, they were established long before Skyrim had the huge variety of apparel mod items it has today.

 

Here's the deal on Slot 32: it is almost always used for outerwear items that cover the breasts, and the mesh file almost always includes a reference body. However, many armor items (e.g. catsuits, Scarlet Dawn Armor, Barbarian Explorer Armor, almost all Apachii Divine Elegance gowns, etc.) cover much more than just the upper torso, including forearms (34), pelvis (49), legs (53), calves (38). So when you put on an item that covers all of the slots I just mentioned, you want it to displace anything you already have equipped in those slots, right? Well, the only way to make sure that happens is to specify all of those slots in the ARMA block of the plugin. And, by adding all of the slots that the item covers, you make it possible for any conflicting item that occupies just one of those slots to displace the entire outfit- you wouldn't want to put on a pair of britches (49) WITH the all-covering catsuit.

 

But wait- what if you have an open-front blouse or jacket (32) under which you want to wear a bra? For some reason, the mod author put the bra into Slot 32, making it impossible to wear with the blouse or jacket- you can wear one or the other, but not both. Well, Slot 56 is ready when you are. Just reslot the bra to Slot 56 and you can wear it under your jacket or any other Slot 32 item.

 

The random-seeming slot assignments start cropping up with smaller, miscellaneous items- left-hand bracelets and rings, ankle chains, belly chains, piercings, chokers (that you want to wear with or without an amulet/necklace), garter belts (that you want to wear with or without panties) etc. etc. In those cases, mod authors just use whatever seems to work for them in their game, and thus we end up with no commonality between different mods providing the same items, no plan, no guidelines. Welcome to the Wild Wild West of modding.

 

I began reslotting items back in my Oldrim days, and continued since then. I got so many mix-n-matchable items that I had to memorialize my personal slot plan to make sure I at least had commonality among like items, meaning all my earrings are in slot 43 except the two I like to wear with my others, which are in Slot 61. If I were starting over today, there are a few choices I would change, but at this point I have so many items that any change I make would mean I would have to make other changes too, and the dominoes would start falling from there.

Spoiler

 

TL; DR: Reslotting an item takes less than 3 minutes (including editing the nifs and plugin) once you have done one or two. Just Do It™

[qalavix]

*takes notes, saves screenshots and images*

Quote

There are guidelines

Which, when dealing with 13 year old modders, means "There are things that old people say that I don't have to listen to because I don't have to!"  Except I can't say it in their slang; it's probably got some Z's in it.

 

Anyway, there are guidelines and they are often used... like English spelling rules; more noticeable in the breach than in the observance, I think.

 

You also skipped the DD slot assignments which are NASTY in their persistence and hiding ability (I didn't know about DD blocking other items in Slot41 for six months!), and have a slightly different arrangement.

 

Just in case anyone else wanders into this thread.  ?

 

Quote

Biped slots are not arbirtrary

More arbitrary than the 255-minus-some-number of ESP slots for plugins, is more what I meant.  Or 'more arbitrary' like why lockpicks are 'A' and gold is 'F' and player is '14', and not '10' '11' and '12' respectively; or 'A' 'B' and 'C', or...

 

Quote

I began reslotting items back in my Oldrim days, and continued since then. I got so many mix-n-matchable items that I had to memorialize my personal slot plan to make sure I at least had commonality among like items, meaning all my earrings are in slot 43 except the two I like to wear with my others, which are in Slot 61. If I were starting over today, there are a few choices I would change, but at this point I have so many items that any change I make would mean I would have to make other changes too, and the dominoes would start falling from there.

 

Whereas I fell into Skyrim {"aaaaaAAAAAAH-"*THUD*} about a year ago, and the choices and easy availability are immense, and now I don't want to have to sludge through what took you five to ten years of occasional work to do.

@Vyxenne, I loves ya (in a non-stalker-y casual sort of way; don't SWAT me), but what you did over years is a long-term effort that I bet you'd (metaphorically) barf over if you were looking at it all at once, like I am.

And this kind of repetitiveness is something I personally cannot tolerate.  It's a firmware bug.  I would literally rather be whipped bloody while tied to a post naked in public, than work on an assembly line for any length of time.

 

Look, I'm not saying that the current situation is utterly intolerable or that fixes do not exist;

I'm saying that

the current situation is unpredictable (you never know what some piece of clothing will be unless/until you check it),

and that

it would simplify matters considerably if there was an easier way to manipulate what thousands of individuals over ten-plus years of not paying attention to existing guidelines, throwing guidelines away because they got in the way, or 'whatever seems to work in their games' has done.  

 

And telling a program "if A=x AND if B=y(0) THEN ASSIGN B=y(1)" is pseudocode I can write.

I don't know where to put this (or how many places), how to read A [8 hex digits for the item's record] or B [item slot number], or how to get the game to recognize a change in B -- but it seemed possible that someone with greater knowledge might be able to figure it out.

 

Somebody came up with DAR, somebody came up with SPID, somebody came up with Synthesis... hell, Fore came up with FNIS, and Ashal came up with SexLabs Framework!

 

Maybe somebody can come up with something for armor & clothing to make it easier to wear the pieces I want at the same time.

[Vyxenne]

13 hours ago, qalavix said:

You also skipped the DD slot assignments

That's because I didn't know anything about them, not being a DD user. However, it kinda just proves my overall point: welcome to the Wild, Wild West of Skyrim modding. Obviously, if you use DD your slot plan would have to accommodate that, and some devices would need to be patched (I do most of my reslots via ESLified patches to avoid having to redo them if/when I update the mod.)

 

13 hours ago, qalavix said:

I fell into Skyrim {"aaaaaAAAAAAH-"*THUD*}

No, no, you've gone and cocked it all up! When you fall into Skyrim, it's

"aaaaaaaiiieeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEE ohgod ohmygod yessssssss harder doit doit - *SPLAT!* mmmmmmmm zzzzzzzzzzzz...."

 

13 hours ago, qalavix said:

you never know what some piece of clothing will be unless/until you check it

I discovered the SkyUI AIO Survival (SAS) SE mod a couple of years ago. The only reason I use it is that it enables a "Slot" column in my SkyUI Apparel menu. (It also enables Survival Mode support in SkyUI, but since I don't use Survival mode, I can't say how well SAS fills that void.) Having a Slot column right there, in-game, in my clothing/armor inventory is very helpful not only for determining Biped slots but also for sorting on them when you want to change to a different top but can't decide which one- so you simply sort on Slot and voilà! There they all are for your consideration.

[nilead]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:09 AM, Vyxenne said:

The only reason I use it is that it enables a "Slot" column in my SkyUI Apparel menu.

You might want to take a look at this:https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/49608

Does only that. SAS kinda overloads the interface, if all you need is slot info.

[Vyxenne]

34 minutes ago, nilead said:

SAS kinda overloads the interface, if all you need is slot info.

Wow, thanks, that mod did not exist when I first discovered SAS. As far as overloading my interface is concerned, all of the extra columns are toggleable. Most of mine are toggled off, resulting in this apparel display (as you can see, I use SAS's V/W column as well):