Why Steam for Skyrim is legally dangerous for you

[Symon]

If only this were true! The UK has specifically enacted laws that cover CARTOONS and' date=' IIRC, is urging partner countries to follow suite![/quote']

I know I can't speak for how things are in the UK, but in the US, the difference still stands.

The Constitutional commitment to Free Speech in the USA is very admirable! (I really wish the UK even had a constitution!)

That said, it's never been absolute. The oft quoted example is there is no protected right to shout fire in a Crowded Theater!

 

As an outsider who likes to keep informed, it seems to me that sadly, those constitutional rights are being slowly chipped away!

 

[Guest Donkey]

I was reading this thread, and it made me chuckle.. Anyway, if there where doing this don't you think the gamers would have reunited by now, like that other DRM ??

 

Anyway if you are this worried, use drive lock, even if they scan the data folder, they won't be able to see in it, since they need a password..

[daedrasp]

In Any country Child porn is CRIME! Modding to anyway is permissed. But Never Child porn. Cut your penis!!

[Guest Donkey]

It is here on loverslab too. So i don't know what the problem is.

[Khadir]

Hey at least it's a worldwide release' date='

[/quote']

 

Nope. The Japanese version isn't ready yet, for example.

 

I also read somewhere that the EULA that we are supposed to "sign" by activating Steam is not valid in the EU. Can someone who knows a thing or two about the EU laws comment on that?

 

General EU law (details may vary per country) is: If you buy the game on a disk' date=' any post-point-of-sale EULA can be ignored and isn't enforceable; you still retain the right to use the game if you don't agree to it. However, getting it to run (without Steam), while legal, is [i']your[/i] problem. If you buy the game as digital download and agreed to the EULA before purchasing it, you're fucked.

 

[calranthe]

Ok' date=' starting a debate!

 

TL;DR version :

why Skyrim + Steam + Loversbitch/naked X117 -> you potentially in prison

 

(that's the catchy title to tell you might want to read it)

 

 

I find legitimate that game producers look for ways to protect their products, but I can't stand Steam. Here is part of why.

 

Read the Steam user terms and privacy license. You give them the right, without reserve, to monitor every running process and file on your computer. Reasoning (which they don't explain btw): for multiplayer games, it allows to verify that you don't run cheating program. But Skyrim is a single-player and they don't mention 'only game-related', you do sign a license where you allow them to scan your whole HD and your processes without a need to justify it (if you doubt this, go read the Steam license again before arguing).

 

I am not saying that they will make a database of all the things you wouldn't want them to know, but you contractually give them the right to. Now this sounds somewhat fine still, right?

 

Except that say your country considers bestiality depiction illegal, or considers that 'young unclothed races' is pornographic representation of things that we wouldn't want it to be. Unfortunately, you run that mod. More unfortunately even, you gave Steam the right to scan your HD - which obviously starts at the minimum with the game-related stuff. Your government is allowed to ask Steam to give them a full list of users who have that mod. Since you waived that right for Steam to check it, they don't have to ask for it. Normally, a judge could give an individual warrant for your own computer to be searched, but they need a reasonable doubt that you might have that type of activities (because it would infringe on your privacy etc). Here, they don't need that anymore, they need a single one on Steam for them to give the full list of all the users of a list of mods they don't like.

 

If you are in Europe, Russia, Asia, you probably risk nothing or a fine if they even care about it. In the US (or god forbid in Saudi Arabia ), having that kind of things is likely to lead to a fine or jail, and your employers, family, friend or neighbors probably won't be overjoyed to learn the reason for it.

 

Now for the other things I hate:

- I also dislike the concept of 'you can't run the game without Steam running too at the same time'

- you must connect regularly to the internet when Steam asks for it. People will tell you that it isn't true for single-player games. That's not entirely correct. Steam will still periodically force you to connect, every x days, to check for updates etc, else it doesn't allow you to play anymore

- steam forces game updates, and sometimes I don't want that. Anyway I don't want to be forced to update without knowing first if it will screw my mods, introduce new bugs or whatever.

- being forced to watch their advertisement sucks

- steam has a good history of technical problems (which is somewhat ok by today's industry standards), but they also have a strong history of very poor consumer services (which is not ok at all)

- those guys are getting a monopoly by now. That allows them to disregard a lot of things and do or abuse as they want (long debate, but I'll start that only if someone's interested).

- even if you buy the game in a shop, you still have to install steam and activate it through them. The only thing that change is that you have a box and that you'll have to download less things over the internet the day you install it

- if I bought my game in a shop, I don't see why I have to have a Steam account with all my user information (see the recent PSN hacks and the leaks of people's bank cards number etc - again, can start another debate on that)

 

 

Basically, I'm sad to say, I'll buy Skyrim in a shop, but will install only a 'version without Steam' (let's call it that way) when one is available.

 

 

Complete horse crap, I have used steam for 4+ years and I mod nearly every game capable of being modded on steam, my oblivion and wifes oblvion (both steam versions ONLINE using there cloud service that keeps our save games etc) has been modded in the most perverted way over the last few years.

 

But I do have some tinfoil hats I can sell you at a reasonable price.

 

 

[MidbossVyers]

Why not just buy the physical disk?

[labrat]

Almost every mod on this site would be described as HardCore Porn by the "powers that be".

 

Forget lolicon and bestiality, in the UK anal sex is still on the books as a criminal offence, (though I don't know of any recent arrests), and the obscene publications legislation has been dramatically strengthened in recent years. As one stand up comedian put it before they black-bagged him "The UK, where they can now arrest you for drawing a stick figure if someone decides that the stick figure is too small".

 

The internet knocked back the Puritans because they couldn't control it. Don't give them the means to reintroduce controls or they will be back and you will lose what you have gained in the last decade or so.

 

Are you all so young that you have forgotten that pornography like this was almost impossible to find and very, very illegal not very long ago? Now we have a measure of liberty, a fact that the Puritans very, very much regret.

 

History Lesson

 

 

As an example. Well over a century ago, in the UK a society was set up called the National Vigilance Association. The declared aim of this society was to "Protect Public Morality" from the "evil of prostitution".

 

In fact they targeted the Music Halls - the "People's Palaces" of Victorian Britain, that had re-developed a bit of their edge in the "Naughty Nineties".

 

In the early 19th century Music Halls sprang up everywhere, and were largely uncontrolled centres for radicalism and liberation, but legislation (usually under the auspices of Health & Safety) and commercialism had squeezed them into a narrow working-class conservative mould by the late Victorian period. Then, in the late Eighties and Nineties, they again started to be the focus for bawdy humour, political satire and popular culture.

 

This would not do. Something had to be done.

 

The NVA was helped by the fact that Music Halls had become big commercial enterprises controlled by a small number of main players. The government made the noises that it thought would please its backers, and the owners were more than happy to self-censor their cash cows, not realising that they were effectively destroying what made Music Halls attractive.

 

I see a modern parallel, but there is more to it than that. The NVA was around long before it was called the NVA and it did not die when the Music Halls were castrated.

 

In 1900 they set up an offshoot "International Bureau for Suppression of Traffic in Persons". Yes. 1900. People Trafficking. Again, "good cause". They also ran another group the "Travellers Aid Society" which merged with the NVA in 1939. The IBSTP and NVA merged in the 1950s as the "British Vigilance Association". They were supposed to have disbanded in the 1970s by which time they were thought to have infiltrated all the following associations:

 

Association for Moral and Social Hygiene; (which disguised itself with a name change to the Josephine Butler Society)

British Social Biology Council;

Catholic Women's League;

Church of England Moral Welfare Council;

Mission to Seamen; (!? true)

Mothers' Union;

National Council of Women;

Public Morality Council;

St Joan's Alliance

 

These societies attacked prostitutes, pornography and were obsessed with au-pair girls (!? true)

 

I think that the list could easily be extended. In the UK for instance what were the links between the BVA and the National Viewers and Listeners Association that campaigned so loudly for censorship? And it's inheritors.

 

As organised religions lose power, the mindset behind the attacks on liberty changes tactics. They target humanist groups and try to establish a "non-religious" moral dogma - as long as it fits their dogma they don't mind if deity isn't mentioned. Women's Groups were a particularily easy target.

 

I'm positive you could do the same for American, German groups (and French, Italian, Spanish, even Polish.....) but in today's global environment, with today's People's Palace as the Internet, it's the global players that need watching.

 

There are powerful groups today, for instance CEOP, or the anti-Piracy lobby, whose agenda while ostensibly worthy seem uncomfortably close in outlook or method to these overwhelmingly "religious" and puritanical people. And if you look at some of the ways that they work, you can bet that the Anti-Capitalist movement, and groups like Lulz and Anonymous will be targeted for infiltration and "guidance" towards "acceptable" enemies.

 

Today ministers are meeting to discuss "cyber crime" in Europe and hatching plots to end anonymity on the Internet. The fight for the future is on.

 

 

 

Wise up. Constant Vigilance.

 

[Guest]

Why not just buy the physical disk?

 

Because that will require steam as well, just like how Empire Total War or Modern Warfare did.

[Guest]

Also, can we guys stop the paranoia? All of us here (well, MOST of us) are going to get this game REGARDLESS of any bullcrap you warn us about. We will mod our game to our hearts content and it's TOO DAMN BAD if you don't like that. Steam hasn't given me legal troubles with adult content so far, and we have rights and liberties to view what makes us happy, so as long as we are of legal age, nobody's gonna give a damn.

[labrat]

Personally, I will be buying Skyrim as soon as the ned at my local mall unwraps the box. If it involves Steam so be it. As soon as I get a construction set I will be modding.

 

But I will be watchful, and careful, and take whatever precautions that I deem necessary. That isn't paranoia. That is intelligence.

 

If you don't feel that the wind is changing, then carry on regardless. Shutting your eyes and repeating "It's all bullcrap" is good ju-ju and well recommended for dealing with imaginary bogey men, but on the whole tends to be less effective against men with guns or nightsticks or writs. Nevermind, there is always the safety of the herd, ('though I suspect that the "paranoid" wildebeest lives longer).

 

Steam is "probably" safe, (at this moment in time), 'though how it'll conflict with TOR and so forth remains to be seen, especially if you cannot switch the auto-connect off. But on principle, be bloody wary of anything that accesses parts of your machine that you wouldn't want your dear old parent/spouse/boss/neighbour to see. Embarrassing isn't the same as illegal but still hurts.

 

As regards dirty mods. Would simply renaming them to something innocent throw a spanner in the works of potential data collectors?

[Mashi]

Anal sex is still on the books in Canada, though case law has stated that between two consenting adults, the statute law does not apply. This applies with a lot of other things here.

[Guest Donkey]

Did you read steam main page ??? read about hack... Nice going steam.. Makes me smile i never bought anything from them..

 

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/

 

Anyway keep major tabs on your account if you ever bought something from them with your credit card..

 

 

I had to chuckle about the title of this thread

 

Why Steam for Skyrim is legally dangerous for you

 

And now reading there own main page..

[labrat]

Oh dearie dearie me. The hack took place on 6/11. Does anyone know when this warning appeared? I hope that this doesn't stop me activating Skyrim when I get it.

[Guest Donkey]

I think it only came out a few hours ago.. because it wasn't there this morning yet.

[Mashi]

Oh dearie dearie me. The hack took place on 6/11. Does anyone know when this warning appeared? I hope that this doesn't stop me activating Skyrim when I get it.

 

They stated they were attacked on the 6th(or 7th depending where you are in the world)' date=' they reported on the 10th what the full intrusion was. Password and CC info was encrypted via salted-hash.

 

You can activate just fine, don't worry. And even at that, unless whoever did the hacks got the encryption tables, the chances of bruteforcing the info is almost zero. Valve seemed to have taken security much more seriously after the HL2 sourcecode theft.

 

Even at that, I still trust them more than EA, or Blizzard-Activision. EA is scum, they've treated not only their customers as dirt, but their employees. And Blizzard-Acti, is just one small step above EA these days.

 

/. thread on it.

[Symon]

I read this on the Register today and almost died!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/11/valve_admits_steam_hack/

 

It would be nice if the complacency mavens admitted that perhaps people not trusting Steam had some cautious validity behind their fears!

Do read the comments too.

 

At least they didn't store the Banks details as plain text. There is a chance the thieves won't be able to use them. Maybe they didn't make off with the keys, or won't be able to brute-force them.

 

Cautious Steam users should watch their bank accounts/credit cards for odd transaction. Maybe think of canceling cards, changing passwords etc.

If you do have an issue, be sure to let others here know.

[Mashi]

The problem is symon, most people couldn't tell you what salted-hash is if you gave them a crash course in cryptography. In turn, most people don't understand what network security is either. I do have a feeling that this breech might be related to valve using vbulliten, it's not very secure.

[Symon]

Indeed. However, the Register article certainly implies they were compromised for some time and does hint to the Layman how bad this could be.

 

Scary!

Even worse, Valve thought at first that it was just the forums. It wasn't!

[Mashi]

Implies is pretty easy to do. But the hack was on the 6th/7th, and they killed the forums then to do an audit. And a full release statement was on the 10th of what was taken. Much faster than Sony's near on 3 weeks before telling 65m people that all of their stuff was stolen, and they stored it in plain text. And that their CC info was compromised.

[Symon]

Oh they are being much better about it then many other companies. Which is why I on the whole think the current company quite honourable.

[six]

Read this thread just yesterday and then hearing about the hack just now from other sources made me spit my coffee laughing. Such timing makes me look oddly at the topic starter..

Never liked steam and probably will never use it but going out with it all so fast certainly give them some points. Rather doubt they'd be that fast if not for the recently showed bad examples by others though.

 

Anyway hope all steam users don't get any grief from all of this and it get sorted soon.

[Loveryus]

Steam definately might bring people in jail by fuxxxing them so much untill they do things they might regret. Just like refusing to start Skyrim, cause you changed some Steam-settings. I can't wait till the day, when this happens when I've already modded the game as much as in Oblivion.

[fluffmuffly]

Can we keep in mind that if steam did intend to actually take action against anyone, it would be an entire community worth of people they can't afford to lose (by lose i mean the back lash of the loss being spread around with enough proof by that community they were unfairly judged and sued/banned, steam would be regretting it for years) Plus that skyrim has all the violation codes and unfair advantages already built in, you use them, you relog, steam lets you keep your achievments. Using a console command doesn't deactivate it. Might as well ban everyone that ever opened the console.

 

 

[v0rt3x]

Valve are probably the most mod friendly dev in existence, has nobody seen the thriving tf2 community and the featured mods and maps?

 

They are the least of your worries, I'm never installing origin on this machine.