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Tracking Down the Plugin Limit

zippy57

By zippy57,
in Fallout Technical Support

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zippy57

zippy57

Posted
Posted

Most people have probably heard of the plugin limit. Not the theoretical maximum of 255, but the actual one, where the game will just refuse to load up when you have a certain number of plugins. Personally, I've always been under the opinion that this was not a plugin limit but a record limit, but that is not the point of this thread.

 

I want to see if we can't get some details on different users' plugin thresholds and figure out why this happens, becuase I have recently had a very big reason to be concerned about this. You see, I just got a substantial system upgrade.

 

I went from 4GB of RAM to 32GB

I went from a 2-core 2.53GHz CPU to a 4-core 2.8GHz

I went from a mid-end 2004 graphics card to crossfired Radeon HD 7970Ms that can run Tomb Raider on Ultimate at 60fps

And my plugin limit went from 210 to 156

 

WTF? Not only that but with no new plugins (only the removal of some) I'm suddenly getting an incredibly annoying issue even on a brand-new save: When crossing cells the pause menu and save/load will randomly stop working. I'm trying to track down the plugin causing the problem now but it's a tedious process, and it annoys me because none of these plugins gave me an issue before I upgraded everything.

 

(Oh, and Oblivion still has framerate issues when in exterior cells. WOW that game must be programmed badly.)

 

So to summarize, I'd really like to find a way to track down the cause of this issue, and the best thing I can think of at the moment is to collect information. What is everyone else's plugin limit and what are your specs? And if anybody has anything to add or any theories, go right ahead.

 

EDIT: Here's what we've found so far...

AMD 7970M CFX, 32GB RAM, 4-core 2.80GHz == 156  plugins
AMD 7970     , 12GB RAM, 8-core 3.10GHz == 139+ plugins
NVD  260     ,  6GB RAM, 4-core 2.66GHz == 160  plugins
NVD  260M    ,  4GB RAM, 2-core 2.53GHz == 210  plugins

BruceWayne

BruceWayne

Posted
Posted

I think I can recall reading somewhere that Olbivion/FO3/FNV have problems with x-fire setups. Not really sure and don't know much more about that though, but might be worth to try to run it with crossfire disabled. 

 

The oblivion framerate issue is most likely due to the fact that it doesn't have multicore support and the enigine is lacking any kind of optimization for modern day setups. 

When I've bought my current PC, 3 years ago, I thought that the then 3-year old Oblivion wouldn't be much trouble. I was very wrong. I might have had some demanding mods installed, though.

 

I've never hit the limit on any Beth game yet. I usually have around 100-120 plugins installed. Bashed patch includes like 10-15 plugins (depending on the game, FNV ~10, Oblivion had a lot more), which takes it to around +/- 140 plugins.

My setup is I7-920 (4x2.66GHz), 6GB Ram, Nvidia GTX 260 (896MB).

 

I don't know if it's the same thing as yours, but I've encountered a menu problem as well. Every option was greyed out and the only menu that worked was MCM. This problem persisted across multiple saves, with no change in plugin configuration and setup. It happened with a new game about 30 minutes in. I had to roll back to the earliest save where this wasn't a problem and it works without problems ever since. I know this is not a very satisfying answer, but my guess is some sort of savegame corruption took place.

zippy57

zippy57

Posted
  • Author
Posted

It's happening even on brand-new games. What happens is the Esc key just stops working. It won't bring up the menu at all. If you try to save using the console no save file is created, and if you try to load an existing save file using the console nothing happens. Gameplay itself is fine, it's just you can't save. I'll try running it with Crossfire off. I don't suppose you'd be willing to create a bunch of plugin file copies and see how many you can activate before your game stops loading? :P

 

As for Oblivion, it generally runs better. I can now actually run with all options on max, but every once in a while it'll run into something it doesn't like and the framerate tanks.

 

(My old card was a GTX 260M)

 

EDIT: FNV does have a CrossFire profile, so I'm not sure why it would have issues. Regardless, I tried it and it didn't solve my currently pressing issue.

ChancellorKremlin

ChancellorKremlin

Posted
Posted

It sounds to me like this isn't a plugin related problem, especially if its happening right after an upgrade.

 

I don't think I need to suggest a verify integrity of game cache, but if that doesn't help maybe a reinstall would be in order? A lot of my games acted weird when I upgraded to my current PC (FNV among them) and I found a reinstall fixed most of those problems, and the rest were due to driver issues, which I don't think is your problem here.

Halstrom

Halstrom

Posted
Posted

My theory is there's more than one limit, I believe there's some sort of Texture / Mesh limit that I've hit when just installing a new clothing plugin, when I hit it vanilla stuff starts disappearing giving me Red Diamonds on stuff like letterboxes that aren't modded. The record limits a good theory but I believe otherwise because when I've hit my limit I merged all my clothing & weapon plugins and the issue went away. And I've added a crap load of records since then in SCR & Pregnancy.

 

Oh I'm running a Quadcore Intel 4Gb, Nvidia 9700 and XP

zippy57

zippy57

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I could (and should (and will)) try a full reinstall. I just moved my game folder over from the old system because of all the un-repeatable changes to it (an unexpected system rollback at one point had removed FOMMs install log so I couldn't uninstall the mods) but at this point I just want to be able to play the darn game.

BruceWayne

BruceWayne

Posted
Posted

It's happening even on brand-new games. What happens is the Esc key just stops working. It won't bring up the menu at all. If you try to save using the console no save file is created, and if you try to load an existing save file using the console nothing happens. Gameplay itself is fine, it's just you can't save. I'll try running it with Crossfire off. I don't suppose you'd be willing to create a bunch of plugin file copies and see how many you can activate before your game stops loading? :P

 

 

Okay, went ahead and actually did that. :D

 

My limit is at exactly 159 active plugins. 160 and it's crash on load. LO:

 

 

 

 

FalloutNV.esm
DeadMoney.esm
HonestHearts.esm
OldWorldBlues.esm
LonesomeRoad.esm
GunRunnersArsenal.esm
ClassicPack.esm
AWorldOfPain(Preview).esm
Primary Needs HUD.esm
Project Nevada - Core.esm
Project Nevada - Equipment.esm
rePopulated Wasteland.esm
Sexout.esm
SexoutCommonResources.esm
SexoutStore.esm
msexBase.esm
ELECTRO-CITY - CompletedWorkorders.esm
ELECTRO-CITY - Highways and Byways.esm
iHUD.esm
Project Nevada - Rebalance.esp
Project Nevada - Cyberware.esp
New Vegas Redesigned II.esm
Lings.esm
MojaveDelight.esm
SomeguySeries.esm
AWOPDeadMoney.esp
AWOPLowLootMWeapons.esp
AWOPLowLootMWeaponsArmor.esp
AWOPLowLootGeneral.esp
AWOP-LowNPCSWastelandOnly.esp
AWOPLowLootSkillBooks.esp
Mission Mojave - Ultimate Edition.esp
MMUE-CP-Electrocity.esp
MMUE-CP-New Vegas Redesigned.esp
DarNifiedUINV.esp
CASM.esp
Readius_NV.esp
The Weapon Mod Menu.esp
populatedcasino.esp
Project Nevada - Dead Money.esp
Project Nevada - Honest Hearts.esp
Project Nevada - Old World Blues (No Cyberware).esp
Project Nevada - Lonesome Road.esp
Project Nevada - Gun Runners' Arsenal.esp
Project Nevada - Extra Options.esp
MMUE-CP-PNCore.esp
MMUE-CP-PNRebalance.esp
MMUE-CP-PNEquipment.esp
SecretStash80.esp
avangraffscorned.esp
Goodsprings Filler.esp
NewVegasBounties.esp
NewVegasBountiesII.esp
TheInheritance.esp
CourierCacheWSE.esp
outsidebets.esp
TheCollector.esp
Casino Exchange All.esp
ManualReload.esp
AG Supplementary Uniques-AllInOne.esp
AG Supplementary Uniques-GRA.esp
1nivVSLArmors.esp
1nivPNSLPatch.esp
DragonskinTacticalOutfit.esp
DragonskinBonusPack.esp
iL-Camouflage Ghost Bodysuit.esp
merccustom.esp
VegasOutfits.esp
WastelandCourier.esp
New Vegas redesigned- Honest Hearts.esp
KillingKarmaFix.esp
dD - Enhanced Blood Main NV.esp
dD-Reduced Ragdoll Force.esp
WeaponModsExpanded.esp
Project Nevada - WMX.esp
WMX-ModernWeapons.esp
WMX-DeadMoney.esp
WMX-HonestHearts.esp
WMX-OldWorldBlues.esp
WMX-LonesomeRoad.esp
WMX-GunRunnersArsenal.esp
WMX-ArenovalisTextures.esp
WMX-PreOrderPackClassic.esp
FewPosesMore NVedition.esp
7DanceFnV.esp
MediumBeard.esp
SideburnsBeardShort.esp
Sideburns.esp
SGD's Black Bandana.esp
SmallerTalk.esp
CNR_Beta.esp
housemod.esp
jotoughgirl.esp
SalvagedCourierDLC04.esp
BlackMountainThugArmorT6m.esp
Type 6.esp
T6M Combat Uniform NV.esp
MojaveDelight.esp
MCL_Weapon_Pack_1.4.esp
SexoutZAZ.esp
MaresLeg.esp
msexVeronica.esp
SexoutSex.esp
SexoutFadeToBlack.esp
SexoutConsequences.esp
SexoutDiscounts.esp
SexoutAffairs.esp
SexoutAffairsMojaveDelight.esp
MalePreset - Kopie (5) - Kopie.esp
MalePreset - Kopie (5).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (4).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (3).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (4) - Kopie.esp
MalePreset - Kopie (2) - Kopie.esp
MalePreset - Kopie (2).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (13).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (14).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (10).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (3) - Kopie.esp
MalePreset - Kopie (12).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (11).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (70).esp
MalePreset.esp
MalePreset - Kopie (72).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (71).esp
MalePreset - Kopie.esp
MalePreset - Kopie (67).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (7).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (69).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (78).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (77).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (9).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (8).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (74).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (73).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (76).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (75).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (66).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (54).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (55).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (79).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (53).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (50).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (51).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (52).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (59).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (63).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (56).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (65).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (6) - Kopie.esp
MalePreset - Kopie (6).esp
MalePreset - Kopie (61).esp
NVWillow.esp
PinupPoses.esp
SariDPosesNV.esp
Slave In Pose NV Edition.esp
Bashed Patch, 0.esp
ProjectRealityMkIv5HDR.esp
The Mod Configuration Menu.esp
 
Total active plugins: 159
Total plugins: 168
 

 

 

 

The dummy plugin only contains 1 npc, which is a character preset. (Kopie means copy) I've started with 255 active plugins and went down by reducing it 10 at a time.

zippy57

zippy57

Posted
  • Author
Posted

So, (almost) the same card, 2GB more RAM, and 2 more cores nets you a -50 plugin limit when compared to my old setup. I wonder if the number of cores has something to do with it? Is there a way to temporarily disable CPU cores?

BruceWayne

BruceWayne

Posted
Posted

So, (almost) the same card, 2GB more RAM, and 2 more cores nets you a -50 plugin limit when compared to my old setup. I wonder if the number of cores has something to do with it? Is there a way to temporarily disable CPU cores?

 

I think you can do that with the task manager. I'd read up on that though, as I'm not sure if that's something one should do.

 

So many Kopies... so little wasteland!

 

Tsk, tsk, the plural of Kopie is Kopien...:D

ChancellorKremlin

ChancellorKremlin

Posted
Posted

 

So, (almost) the same card, 2GB more RAM, and 2 more cores nets you a -50 plugin limit when compared to my old setup. I wonder if the number of cores has something to do with it? Is there a way to temporarily disable CPU cores?

 

I think you can do that with the task manager. I'd read up on that though, as I'm not sure if that's something one should do.

 

So many Kopies... so little wasteland!

 

Tsk, tsk, the plural of Kopie is Kopien... :D

 

 

You can do that with task manager, but I don't see how it would be an issue. FNV is not even really designed to operate on more than a core, so I can't see how it would somehow *know* how to handle a large number of plugins through the use of extra cores.

 

Also, zippy, the reason I had to do a reinstall was precisely that - I too basically copied my folders over and hoped for the best. In the end, I installed everything from scratch and then anything that was left over in the old folder I copied one by one and only stopped if my game stopped working - I actually managed to salvage everything, but a clean reinstall to start with was necessary.

 

Kopien doesn't have the same ring now does it?  :P

zippy57

zippy57

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I don't think the extra cores are letting FNV "know" to handle more, I think the extra cores are somehow hurting it. I'm just looking at the basic numbers here and something is very, very wrong...

7970, 32GB RAM, 4-core 2.80GHz == 156 plugins

260 ,  6GB RAM, 4-core 2.66GHz == 160 plugins

260M,  4GB RAM, 2-core 2.53GHz == 210 plugins
The numbers simply don't make sense. My setup was clearly worse, yet it could handle 50 more plugins. And now my better setup is even worse in terms of plugins. Even assuming my 7970 result is due to a fault install, how is that possible?
zippy57

zippy57

Posted
  • Author
Posted

The first thing I did was use the Launcher to max all the settings, and the second thing I did was make sure all the threaded/core stuff was fixed. So yep.

ChancellorKremlin

ChancellorKremlin

Posted
Posted

Zippy, what problem are you experiencing EXACTLY? Describe to me exactly what you do and what happens when the game crashes, ie how, where, at what point, etc.

 

I'm asking because I've recently installed the next "package" of mods I want(ed) for my "ultimate mod playthrough compilation" and this has raised my count to 169. A few of those mods appear to be competing for the menu inventory (Mission Mojave and The Weapon Mod Menu, to be precise) and now after my game loads and I get an error message about a few menus, it crashes. 

 

So I'm unsure if it is because I have added an extra 30 plugins, or because of the conflict. Happens even with new games. 

BruceWayne

BruceWayne

Posted
Posted

If you reach the limit, the game crashes after the Bethesda loading screen, just before the mouse cursor would appear.

 

WMM and MMUE work together without problems for me. 

ChancellorKremlin

ChancellorKremlin

Posted
Posted

If you reach the limit, the game crashes after the Bethesda loading screen, just before the mouse cursor would appear.

 

WMM and MMUE work together without problems for me. 

 

Hmmn... I'm crashing on loading a save, or starting a new game. I'm 100% sure I've installed something in the wrong order, or overwritten something I shouldn't have. Here is the load order: 

 

 

FalloutNV.esm
CaravanPack.esm
ClassicPack.esm
MercenaryPack.esm
TribalPack.esm
DeadMoney.esm
HonestHearts.esm
OldWorldBlues.esm
LonesomeRoad.esm
GunRunnersArsenal.esm
New Vegas Redesigned II.esm
Project Nevada - Core.esm
Project Nevada - Cyberware.esp
Project Nevada - Equipment.esm
Project Nevada - Rebalance.esp
Project Nevada - Extra Options.esm
CFWNV.esm
ELECTRO-CITY - CompletedWorkorders.esm
ELECTRO-CITY - Highways and Byways.esm
FOOK - New Vegas.esm
FOOK - New Vegas DLCs.esm
WMR.esm
AWorldOfPain(Preview).esm
FreesideOpen.esm
rePopulated Wasteland.esm
Caliber.esm
CaliberXhonesthearts.esm
CaliberXgunrunners.esm
SCAV.esm
Interior Lighting Overhaul - Core.esm
HonestHearts-CaliberX.esm
SlaveTown - Episode II.esm
Seachlight Airport NCR.esm
NVInteriors_Core.esm
NVInteriors_ComboEdition.esm
NVInteriors_ComboEdition_AWOP.esm
NVInteriors_ComboEdition_AWOP_SLAP_NCR.esm
The Mod Configuration Menu.esp
The Weapon Mod Menu.esp
NVR- Recommended.esp
New Vegas redesigned- Honest Hearts.esp
Voice dissonance fix.esp
Vurt's WFO.esp
Project Nevada - Cyberware Additions.esp
Project Nevada - Rebalance Complete.esp
Project Nevada - All DLC.esp
Project Nevada - Rebalance Uncapped Max Level.esp
PNxEO MCMScriptFixes.esp
Cass Barks.esp
CFW-DLC.esp
CFW-PN.esp
CFW-PN-DLC.esp
Readius_NV.esp
Neckchains.esp
UnlimitedCompanions.esp
Power Armour is Powered.esp
KDC_Companions_Removable_Armors.esp
kochandbohr.esp
athornysituation.esp
awilderwasteland.esp
betsybrahmin.esp
outsidebets.esp
FreesideOpenPatch.esp
FSOmusic.esp
betsybrahminFSO.esp
AWOPDeadMoney.esp
AWOPCFWWeaponPatch.esp
AWOP Tweaks.esp
AWOPCaliberXAmmoPatch.esp
NewVegasBounties.esp
NewVegasBountiesFSOPatch.esp
EVE FNV - ALL DLC.esp
GRA WRP Compatibility Patch.esp
boa ncrpahelmet.esp
Boacombat2glove.esp
christinecos.esp
WorkingCrimsonCaravanTraders.esp
ExtendedDialogueVulpes.esp
Primm Reputation Restored.esp
Sheriff Meyers.esp
The Gourmand Revived.esp
Followers Ready To Fight.esp
RHKCompanionCure.esp
yukonrifle.esp
NVWillow.esp
merccustom.esp
L38NoMoochers.esp
Tailor Maid - NV.esp
w44Satchels - Full.esp
1nivVSLArmors.esp
NVDrugLab.esp
LRunlocker.esp
DWDEagle44.esp
BoSCombatArmor.esp
sandblasterarmor.esp
SmallerTalk.esp
QWastelandStrider.esp
Amy_Armor.esp
StockingsNV.esp
1nivPNSLPatch.esp
MusicRecovery.esp
Mission Mojave - Ultimate Edition.esp
MMUE POP.esp
MMUE-CP-AWOP.esp
MMUE-CP-Electrocity.esp
MMUE-CP-EVE.esp
MMUE-CP-New Vegas Redesigned.esp
MMUE-CP-ILO.esp
populatedcasino.esp
SlaveTown - Episode II - Assets.esp
CONELRAD 640-1240.esp
WeaponModsExpanded.esp
WMX-GunRunnersArsenal.esp
WMX-OldWorldBlues.esp
WMX-LonesomeRoad.esp
WMX-HonestHearts.esp
WMX-DeadMoney.esp
WMX-ArenovalisTextures.esp
WMX-PreOrderPackMercenary.esp
WMX-EVE-AllDLC.esp
WMX-FOOKNV-DLCs CP.esp
WMR_Vanilla_R.esp
WMR_DeadMoney_R.esp
WMR_GunRunnersArsenal_R.esp
WMR_HonestHearts_R.esp
WMR_LonesomeRoad_R.esp
WMR_OldWorldBlues_R.esp
WMR_WMX_GunRunnersArsenal_R.esp
WMR_WMX_HonestHearts_R.esp
WMR_WMX_LonesomeRoad_R.esp
WMR_WMX_OldWorldBlues_R.esp
WMR_WMX_Vanilla_R.esp
FOOK - New Vegas.esp
FOOK - New Vegas DLCs.esp
FOOK-PN Fix DLCS.esp
AWOP FOOK Weapon Patch.esp
MMUE-CP-FOOK.esp
MMUE-CP-rePopulated.esp
MMUE-CP-PNALLDLC.esp
MMUE-CP-PNEquipment.esp
MMUE-CP-PNRebalance.esp
MMUE-CP-PNCore.esp
Interior Lighting Overhaul - Ultimate Edition.esp
ILO - NVInteriors Project - AWOP - SLAP.esp
ILO - NVInteriors Project - AWOP.esp
ILO - NVInteriors Project.esp
ILO - A World of Pain.esp
ILO - GS Shack.esp
ILO - PipBoy Light.esp
 
Total active plugins: 149
Total plugins: 176

 
Forgot to add, I'm also running FOOK (or trying to, this is more of a test-run) and I've disabled anything Sexout related for now. 
BruceWayne

BruceWayne

Posted
Posted

You might want to run BOSS again, as MMUE should be one of the very first things to load. It's a bugfix mod, so you let it fix what there is to fix and load the rest after that for changing the fixed content. FOOK is *meh* and problematic to run alongside PN. 

 

Edit: Plus, I don't see any merged or bashed patches.

ChancellorKremlin

ChancellorKremlin

Posted
Posted

You might want to run BOSS again, as MMUE should be one of the very first things to load. It's a bugfix mod, so you let it fix what there is to fix and load the rest after that for changing the fixed content. FOOK is *meh* and problematic to run alongside PN. 

 

Edit: Plus, I don't see any merged or bashed patches.

 

I deactivated the merged patch, because I got the same problem with it, and also the bashed patch (which, for some reason, adds single letters to the start of every item in the game for me...) - I'm not 100% on FOOK either, I just wanted to test-run it. 

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