Bullfye Posted November 22, 2020 Posted November 22, 2020 Hi there everyone... Just a quick point on The ported mods from LE and Oldrim to Special Edition versions ... Seems that people do not care much about this but its of most importance to keep the game stable or more stable .. There is a lot of ported mods that are nicely done but the Person that Ports them to SE forgets a small but not less important detail , The Esp Form ...Skyrim SE works with Form 44 esp plugins , and there are a lot of Mods that are ported or repacked into SE version that come in the wrong form 43 and some even 40 ... This might look to you as a small problem without relevance but in fact in time you will have issues loading your saved games with this mod Esp file in the wrong form ...It will corrupt your save game to a point that you will not be able to load it anymore , you will have occasional CTD due to those esp files as well.. Just now I am converting a long list of mods with wrong form ID mostly form 43 but some even lower in form 40 .. This is some of them ..I leave it here so that you know this esp files are in the wrong ID form.. I advise the people that make us the favor of porting this mods to in the future pay more attention to this fact , that is easy to fix with the CK and will get the ported Mod perfectly ported to SE.. Thanks for reading this ..
Mister X Posted November 22, 2020 Posted November 22, 2020 This is a topic for a huge discussion in the modding scene, though there wasn't found a real proove for one or the other fact to be true. The mostly accepted theory however is, that there is no need to convert and they are perfectly stable, even with form 43 in SE. If you can provide evidence for your point that they corrupt save files, I'd be happy to see it. Since then, your point of view is in the minority and some even think that it will be even more stable to keep the form than converting a mod from 43 to 44.
Just Don't Posted November 22, 2020 Posted November 22, 2020 Only proven issues related to using form 43 in SE are water not flowing or losing god rays in certain places. These are the only records (water, weather) that seem to require form 44 to properly work in SE. Everything else is fairy tales, SE is totally capable of reading and using form 43 (and lower) records. People have been playing for literal years with several mods in form 43, no evidence of save corruption or game instability yet. This is a recurring topic of discussion, but there is really no new evidence. So if you can provide solid evidence for what you're saying that would be great.
Bullfye Posted November 22, 2020 Author Posted November 22, 2020 I can tell you one real issue from this form 43 ...Increased loading times of related Plugins , that is one , in fact I took the trouble to measure the loading times in form 43 and in SE form 44, The problem is even bigger when you have a heavy load order and many Animation and scripted mods , alongside with this Form 43 can lead to CTD on animations starting or to script failures in quests and related things like Mods with quests and animations...Give you a example , My Loading times decreased in almost one minute at game loading or save loading , SSE is prepared to deal with lower Form IDs but it forces the fragile Engine the game has , can lead to no CTD and can lead to one if its dealing with multiple things that increase engine work load...One example is that I have Sexlab and animations files for it , alongside with Amourose Adventures depending on the animation the AD choosed to load I had lots of script errors and large loading times so that animations started , after Converting the Esp files to form 44 ID I got everything running smoothly and so far no CTD or Script errors .. Form 44 as the needed "file structure" path for SSE Legendary as a different one , yes works with SSE but forces the engine to do extra calculations and that alongside the other things cause CTD...in heavy Modded Skyrim gets even worse , that leads to corrupted saves , cause you might get lucky and do not CTD but the Errors and script failures stay there , also features of those mods that have Form 43 ID esp files may not work correctly what in that takes you to some other Mod errors like quests failures or simply do not work properly ! Lets just say that for Skyrim game Form id Works like a Map or trail that the Engine uses to load each file or Mod! Example .. SKyrim LE Form ID 43 Can be Mod X loads Path Data , file esp X loads Meshes xX and Textures X and Scripts X etc... Example .. Skyrim SE Form Id 44 Loads Esp X That loads path to Folder with Textures and Meshes X ...Etc.. SSE form Id 44 is more fast and efficient loading files cause goes directly to the path that is different and more direct to the engine loading .. I am not an expert , what I am is resilient, and went to a lot of testings with this subject to see what would go on with and without them installed .. But everyone can do whatever he wants to do , its a small amount of time to convert them in the CK, and Modders should pay more attention to this and people that porte the Mods should do it the right way and do not release a sloopy Porte ..Just my 2 cents ..
Just Don't Posted November 22, 2020 Posted November 22, 2020 Not gonna lie, that sounds like a bunch of anecdotal data. I'd rather have a reliable source for statements like "increased load times of the related plugins" or "CTD on animation starting or to script failtures". Because I for one, have never had a crash on animation starting or broken quest/animations due to script failure that I can track back to a form 43 plugin, my loading times aren't even 1 minute long so when you say your load times decreased by ~1 minute doesn't mean nothing to me. And I've played for hundreds of hours while using several plugins in form 43. So my anecdotal data doesn't relate at all to yours. And we still don't know if there is any true in all of this. Of course everyone is free to do whatever they want. I posted here to see if there was any new information on the matter. But just so you know, there were some ported mods that weren't working as intended, while people who keep using the form 43 didn't had issues with these mods. That's a big reason you'll see plenty of ports without changing the form 43 (several people reporting bugs related to the esp conversion for multiple mods, don't remember the specifics but it was mentioned in the SE Conversion tracking post a long time ago).
Bullfye Posted November 22, 2020 Author Posted November 22, 2020 15 minutes ago, Just Don't said: Not gonna lie, that sounds like a bunch of anecdotal data. I'd rather have a reliable source for statements like "increased load times of the related plugins" or "CTD on animation starting or to script failtures". Because I for one, have never had a crash on animation starting or broken quest/animations due to script failure, my loading times aren't even 1 minute long so when you say your load times decreased by ~1 minute doesn't mean nothing to me. And I've played for hundreds of hours while using several plugins in form 43. So my anecdotal data doesn't relate at all to yours. And we still don't know if there is any true in all of this. Of course everyone is free to do whatever they want. I posted here to see if there was any new information on the matter. But just so you know, there were some ported mods that weren't working as intended, while people who keep using the form 43 didn't had issues with these mods. That's a big reason you'll see plenty of ports without changing the form 43 (several people reporting bugs related to the esp conversion for multiple mods, don't remember the specifics but it was mentioned in the SE Conversion tracking post a long time ago). Normally one call anecdotal either when doesn't know what others are saying or simply wants to get others work or actions down and descredit.. Since I do not care about any of this things and am not trying to get credit for nothing , just warning people , Of Reliable source due to my watched testings and examples in own game ..If you want to be sceptical if I may ask what are those reliable sources you are so faithful to ??? Anyway you try to not value positive feedback or information and try to make others look like ignorants OK .. Congratulations on that attitude .. I made this with good intentions .. You want to have it in those reliable sources its ok by me .. I do not care about people that do not care for others .. just saying .. It was to help people understand the pros and against of this issue .. no one cares .. I care about people that care !
Just Don't Posted November 22, 2020 Posted November 22, 2020 16 minutes ago, Bullfye said: Normally one call anecdotal either when doesn't know what others are saying or simply wants to get others work or actions down and descredit.. Something like "based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation" perhaps? Because that's what I'm saying. You found some behavior by changing the form version for the plugins in your loadorder. That's one case. Are these changes consistent in other cases? can we reproduce these effects? No idea. When I say I haven't experienced crashes or broken mod features/script failures that's also my personal experience, single case. I don't know what you're talking about after that. You're not the first to mention this topic and there hasn't been any breaking news on the matter. You might be onto something if you can share the logs showing these script failures or crash logs from Net Script Framework and others can reproduce the same results in the same mod setup. Loading times will vary vastly between different users due to system specs and other factors so I'm not sure if that' can be measured accurately.
Bullfye Posted November 22, 2020 Author Posted November 22, 2020 27 minutes ago, Just Don't said: Something like "based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation" perhaps? Because that's what I'm saying. You found some behavior by changing the form version for the plugins in your loadorder. That's one case. Are these changes consistent in other cases? can we reproduce these effects? No idea. When I say I haven't experienced crashes or broken mod features/script failures that's also my personal experience, single case. I don't know what you're talking about after that. You're not the first to mention this topic and there hasn't been any breaking news on the matter. You might be onto something if you can share the logs showing these script failures or crash logs from Net Script Framework and others can reproduce the same results in the same mod setup. Loading times will vary vastly between different users due to system specs and other factors so I'm not sure if that' can be measured accurately. You seem to click on the same point about facts , Reliable information, Case studies reports etc .. and yet all I see is someone that comes to rant others posts or what I told you before .. After all you say all that but neither you come with nothing to back up what you follow or believe , assuming that those reliable cases were something out of this world , all there is to talk about this issue is gamer point of views and case observations ... Nothing more .. I never talked about load order ! I never talked about changing it to achieve anything related to this ! Obviously you have no idea what is Form 44 from sse and 43 from LE...Cause that haves nothing to do with Load order ! Form ID its like a Map for the Engine to react or take action to game flies..in this case its a Map that lays a path for mods to Work , and for the Engine to load them into the game core or modded game.. Listen .. Glad you know so much .. obviously you think you are on the right side when you say it doesn't affects the game ...But then if it doesn't explain why Dev Changed the form ID from 43 LE to 44 SE ??? It doesn't matter .. You just don't get it .. And Ranting its not for me .. You keep going and believe all you want I follow the path it worked for me , testings made by me based on all the information I could get online about this subject .. Ranting and underestimating people will not take you anywhere .. also I really don't care what value you give to " Unreliable sources " like me ! I can just add here the post that better explains what is the relevance of the Form ID Thanks and see you all ..
Just Don't Posted November 22, 2020 Posted November 22, 2020 On 11/22/2020 at 4:26 PM, Bullfye said: After all you say all that but neither you come with nothing to back up what you follow or believe , assuming that those reliable cases were something out of this world , all there is to talk about this issue is gamer point of views and case observations ... Nothing more .. That's what I'm saying. Your personal experience differs vastly from mine (and I'd adventure to say most people who don't even know about form 43 and have been using these for years), to the point where I can't reproduce any of the issues you seem to attribute to keeping form 43 plugins. That's anecdotal data, single cases, first hand experience, etc. If you can take evidence from these cases (like a reproducible script error in a papyrus log or the same crash log for crashing, etc.) then that's something entirely different. On 11/22/2020 at 4:26 PM, Bullfye said: I never talked about load order ! I never talked about changing it to achieve anything related to this ! The only mention of loadorder I make is to refer to the esp/esm files you're using. I'm not saying you changed the order of them. I don't understand how you got that idea. On 11/22/2020 at 4:26 PM, Bullfye said: I can just add here the post that better explains what is the relevance of the Form ID Funny you link that post. First reply in that thread is by mator. A good source IMO, that's someone who knows what he's talking about because he works with records all the time. Now here is mator himself, ~two years after making the post you linked, saying in most cases it doesn't matter and the only records that require conversion are the water and weather ones. Sounds familiar? I don't see the point in looking here for new information or something alike. You think I'm ranting when I'm not, you think I'm discrediting you or belittling you when all I'm doing is asking if there is truly something new and verifiable or not. This isn't a new discussion, so the fact that you can't provide proof or hard data for any of what you're saying is a bad start if your intention is provide a general advice. The fact that you don't seem willing to gather the proper evidence only makes things worse.
Bullfye Posted November 22, 2020 Author Posted November 22, 2020 4 hours ago, Just Don't said: That's what I'm saying. Your personal experience differs vastly from mine (and I'd adventure to say most people who don't even know about form 43 and have been using these for years), to the point where I can't reproduce any of the issues you seem to attribute to keeping form 43 plugins. That's anecdotal data, single cases, first hand experience, etc. If you can take evidence from these cases (like a reproducible script error in a papyrus log or the same crash log for crashing, etc.) then that's something entirely different. The only mention of loadorder I make is to refer to the esp/esm files you're using. I'm not saying you changed the order of them. I don't understand how you got that idea. Funny you link that post. First reply in that thread is by mator. A good source IMO, that's someone who knows what he's talking about because he works with records all the time. Now here is mator himself, ~two years after making the post you linked, saying in most cases it doesn't matter and the only records that require conversion are the water and weather ones. Sounds familiar? I don't see the point in looking here for new information or something alike. You think I'm ranting when I'm not, you think I'm discrediting you or belittling you when all I'm doing is asking if there is truly something new and verifiable or not. I am not giving new information .. there is exactly where you are wrong .. I simply talked about the relevance of converting the Esp forms or not ...! All This talk was never about what Mator or Mister X was only the way you exposed your points ..Nothing more ..You do not need to get others experiences or points down just cause you think something about their source of information unless that info is completely invalid that is not my case I think... The reason I posted is cause people complain about CTD and script failures and then have tons of this bad form plugins in their load order .. And again I am not providing new information just advising people to convert this plugins and Modders to release their Mods with plugins in their right form or porting mods the right way ! I think its important to minimise the risk of CTD somewhere mid game , and there is where my opinion comes in , I think it affects game play and saved games depending on the number of mods you have installed like this and having a heavy load order or not ..I am sure Some of my CTD prior to this action of converting the Esp files were due to this cause Now for a week I have no CTD at all..and before with this bad form Esp files I had in certain points like entering in door and the barkeeper dialogues starts even before I am loaded inside ...Have none of those no more... And cause of this was my post .. All good
Mister X Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 10 hours ago, Bullfye said: The reason I posted is cause people complain about CTD and script failures and then have tons of this bad form plugins in their load order The point is, there is no scientific evidence that form 43 plugins create that risk. The only "proof" you've got is your PERSONAL experience within YOUR game. How about that: if you really want to emphasize your point, start a case study. Take your game, load a bunch of form 43 plugins with it and measure the loading time (best with a software tool, not by hand). Then convert the plugins and do the same thing. Repeat 3-5 times to eliminate measuring inaccuracy. Afterwards, get a bunch of other people to do the same thing. If ten different people all record a real decrease of loading time (say 10%), then it really proven. Then you need some logging tool (maybe .NET framework) and try to force script errors and CTDs. If those happen significantly more with the game of form 43 files AND the log points to those, then you've got an evidence. Just a rough explanation of how to get scientific evidence for a thesis. Without those measured data your point is just a theory and you shouldn't really advice it as univeral remedy Though as most of the people (including me) have a stable play through even with a bunch of 43 plugins, as for now it's mostly your experience and as this not even near being proven.
Fotogen Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 Never had a problem with "form 43" esp. Easy to fix by yourself if you think its a problem. Open CK, save, done. I did had problems with everything else that was not ported to SE. 9 out of 10 times its skeleton/mesh. When switching from LE to SE I did had a couple of cases where ported mod didn't worked. And it was my mod. Mod was more "experimental" stuff, not for release. It wasn't "form 43". It was ... long story short ... after I added a couple of "Is3DLoaded" it was OK. I quess, that things inside game engine work differently. Timing. Its like lets say code for "spawn an object" returns faster then in LE, but object is not 100% created yet(but will be created in paralel). Or maybe not. Maybe its ... dunno. But I do know, its a good idea to call that "is3DLoaded" to check if lets say actor ref is still there and not killed and converted to ash pile or unsummed or moved to some other cell(that is not even loaded). [tl;dr]My mod was not perfect to begins with. SE just exposed an old bug.
Bullfye Posted November 23, 2020 Author Posted November 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Mister X said: The point is, there is no scientific evidence that form 43 plugins create that risk. The only "proof" you've got is your PERSONAL experience within YOUR game. How about that: if you really want to emphasize your point, start a case study. Take your game, load a bunch of form 43 plugins with it and measure the loading time (best with a software tool, not by hand). Then convert the plugins and do the same thing. Repeat 3-5 times to eliminate measuring inaccuracy. Afterwards, get a bunch of other people to do the same thing. If ten different people all record a real decrease of loading time (say 10%), then it really proven. Then you need some logging tool (maybe .NET framework) and try to force script errors and CTDs. If those happen significantly more with the game of form 43 files AND the log points to those, then you've got an evidence. Just a rough explanation of how to get scientific evidence for a thesis. Without those measured data your point is just a theory and you shouldn't really advice it as univeral remedy Though as most of the people (including me) have a stable play through even with a bunch of 43 plugins, as for now it's mostly your experience and as this not even near being proven. Not worth it really , sorry to say this! The stress to make a test ride that way is just to pinpoint what I am saying..! For that matter I posted my thoughts on this subject , People tend to underestimate others experiences , I am not searching for votes or Thumbs up clicks, just stating my testings and the conclusion of those , still believe for my personal experience that this wrong form id files will force the engine to a point of game braking and the consequent CTD issues sooner or later in the gameplay , but that is my opinion , and cause of it I tried to post my view on how to minimise the risk of losing hours of gameplay cause of laziness , from either not converting the wrong files with the CK or making ports and leave the old form active ...That was my goal ! I follow your posts on this subject for a time , since I started making my own testings, and this was the conclusion I reached! If people think its valid and want to follow the simple way to preserve their games and saved games , then it was worth the effort, if people do not think its valid than by all means follow what ever you think its better for you ! Not forcing my opinion , what I see is that people always Go against new opinions , either for disagreeing with it that most of the time its just cause of ego , or just cause goes against the Academic way of viewing things and the order established in those issues or things... I really do not care about what people think , just care about making people feel better , and this is a game that people enjoy so my goal was helping those that have open mind and want to feel better ... Nothing of this is clear we all know, but than if its not clear or resolved , why the Stubbornness of going always against its beyond my comprehension! Its ok post was made to help , been there and done that .. now after posting what I wanted to say , I just move ahead knowing that at least I tried to help .. Accepted ? Not accepted it doesn't matter to me at all... Salutes..
Mister X Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, Bullfye said: [...] just stating my testings and the conclusion of those , still believe for my personal experience [...], but that is my opinion , and cause of it I tried to post my view on how to minimise the risk [...] ...That was my goal ! Sorry to say that, but here is the main point why so many disagree: you did not reach your goal, but it sounded like you described it as general problem and converting as an universal solution. You stated it is a fact, not as a personal experience and that was the problem all along It's nice for you, that you now have a more stable setup and yes, maybe it could be the problem for a few other and help them. Still, it's your experience and not the universal, hidden solution nobody thought of. 2 minutes ago, Bullfye said: People tend to underestimate others experiences This mostly depends on the topic, I'd say. Though for Skyrim, there a three points that make single user experiences a very bad source: 1) the fragility of the engine, 2) the individuality of the mod lists and 3) the different hardware. So ONE experience can't be treated as a good source, but if many people experience similar things, it may become the way to go... see below. 9 minutes ago, Bullfye said: I follow your posts on this subject for a time With "your posts", do you mean me? I did not post very much about converting that I can remember TBH, I'm not that deep into the technical side of Skyrim and its engine ? Heck, I'm not even a software engineer or IT support, so I definitely don't count as valid source for this topic. 11 minutes ago, Bullfye said: what I see is that people always Go against new opinions , either for disagreeing with it that most of the time its just cause of ego , or just cause goes against the Academic way of viewing things and the order established in those issues or things.. Well, when Skyrim SE was quite new, the "academic" or "established" way of converting has been the conversion to form 44. Then people recognized, that this is unnessecary or in rare occasions even had the opposite effects of the wanted ones. So less and less plugins got converted in form 44, but hardly anybody had more problems. That's an experience of a whole community and as such, it's now the established way ... 14 minutes ago, Bullfye said: Nothing of this is clear we all know, but than if its not clear or resolved , why the Stubbornness of going always against its beyond my comprehension! Well, it's not clear or evidential proven, but the majority of people experienced exactly the opposite of your point: the conversion to form 44 produced MORE problems, not less for some plugins and on the other side hardly any complaints came up for non-converted form 43 files. Again, that's the COMMUNITY experience the "stubbornness" is based on.
Bullfye Posted November 23, 2020 Author Posted November 23, 2020 Its ok to disagree cause we have facts that Prove things are different that is your case , what is not ok is disagree cause others stated different things that was some others position in this thread ! When I talked about my goal , I was saying and mentioning my way of minimising possible issues, Again if the form ID was no problem for the SSE game Engine to work perfectly it was not changed for a superior Form ID, Cause lets face it , if the old LE or Oldrim Form were ok and was so easy for SSE engine to handle it why did they changed , I can even dare to reply to this , not being an expert in the matter but rather feel that its obvious on why they did it , I understand the knew for brings the game to a more stable running and faster reading "files" in all their different assemble , That was the first line from where I started testing this things , If it stabilizes more the game and its engine It has a position on how efficient the game engine runs and with that its all said ! Quoting here New Records in SSE LENS VOLI SPGD (from FO4) Changed records in SSE MATO - changed Directional Material Data (L9895-L9929) STAT - changed Direction Material (L12783-L12797) WATR - changed Visual Data (L12920-L13041), added Flow Normals (L13057) WTHR - added volumetric lighting (L13426-L13432), added LENS flare reference (L13442) WEAP - changed Critical Data (L13159-L13183) Changes subrecords in SSE VMAD - added "large references" Overview If the plugin includes any of the above records or subrecords it NEEDS to be updated, else unknown/unpredictable problems may occur. I'd recommend converting ALL plugins though, as there may be other changes that have not been decoded yet. It's your call, but why risk your save games/game stability when you can quickly and easily convert plugins to Form Version 44? So with this said its just what I tried to say and that all can be fixed by converting old Forms to SSE form 44 .. I really do not even know why I try to say something here cause most of the times there is always "Post Trolling" and not talking about you ...
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