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CTD in Southern Mountains near Falkreath


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Posted

I'm playing in Skyrim VR, just a heads up.

It seems that I've finalized my load order and I've started a new game after finding out that my game crashes near Falkreath hold. I started my modding all over to try and get rid of the bug and it did...but now I CTD further into Falkreath, in the mountain trails once things get snowy. From what I've been reading, this is most likely a Navmesh error.

Here is my load order, but some of the esps are inactive as I've merged them after checking for errors in xEdit and cleaning appropriately, also a few are mods that I've converted from Oldrim after seeing that they are safe to convert. I use Vortex and have fixed all mod compatibilities that it has let me know of and used Mator Smash to make a Smashed Patch.

If anyone can give me any insight as to what exactly could be causing this problem, I'd be super grateful. Deploying mods in Vortex can be REALLY time consuming and tiresome when you have tons of mods, especially in VR!

Skyrim.esm
Update.esm
Dawnguard.esm
HearthFires.esm
Dragonborn.esm
SkyrimVR.esm
RSkyrimChildren.esm
Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch.esp
Lanterns Of Skyrim - All In One - Main.esm
MajesticMountains_Landscape.esm
BBLuxurySuite.esm
Apachii_DivineEleganceStore.esm
SexLab.esm
HentaiPregnancy.esm
ApachiiHair.esm
ClimatesOfTamriel.esm
SGHairPackBase.esm
Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm
CreatureFramework.esm
ZaZAnimationPack.esm
SexLabAroused.esm
LSFX-SSE-Audiosettings.esp
Reverb and Ambiance Overhaul - Skyrim.esp
SMIM-SE-Merged-All.esp
ELFX - Exteriors.esp
Immersive Wenches.esp
SkyrimImprovedPuddles-DG-HF-DB.esp
Immersive Sounds - Compendium.esp
EnhancedLightsandFX.esp
Cutting Room Floor.esp
Qw_ISC_CRF Patch.esp
1nivWICCloaks.esp
dD - Enhanced Blood Main.esp
Mortal Enemies.esp
AmazingFollowerTweaks.esp
DeadlySpellImpacts.esp
Qw_DeadlySpellImpacts_ISC Patch.esp
ELFX - NoPlayerHomes.esp
SkyUI_SE.esp
ELFX - Weathers.esp
TrueStormsSE.esp
EmbersHD.esp
Guard Dialogue Overhaul.esp
Apachii_DES_SMP_Patch.esp
1nivWICCloaks_SMP_Patch.esp
LadyLaceCloaks_EN.esp
LadyLaceCloaks_EN_SMP_Patch.esp
FCO - Follower Commentary Overhaul.esp
Relationship Dialogue Overhaul.esp
JKs Skyrim.esp
Smilodon - Combat of Skyrim.esp
SexLab_Solutions.esp
RDO - AFT v1.66 Patch.esp
Summermyst - Enchantments of Skyrim.esp
BikiniAscendVolume1.esp
MoreNastyCritters.esp
Friendlier Taverns.esp
EconomyOverhaulandSpeechcraftImprovements.esp
WeightLessTrueAll.esp
RUSTIC SOULGEMS - Sorted.esp
Qw_RusticSoulgemsSorted_ISC Patch.esp
MoreBanditCamps.esp
OBIS SE.esp
Immersive Hold Borders SE.esp
BetterDocks-MP-DLC-Compatible.esp
Bikini Ascend Level Lists.esp
Artifact Disenchanment.esp
Thunderchild - Epic Shout Package.esp
AI Overhaul.esp
SexLab_DibellaCult.esp
MajesticMountains_Moss.esp
A Few Vanilla Home Replacers.esp
OwnCivilWar.esp
Skyrim Unbound.esp
CFTO.esp
VariousGuardReplacer.esp
Winterhold Restored.esp
Winterhold Restored - JKs Skyrim Patch.esp
Artifact Disenchanting.esp
Hot Springs.esp
ZIA_Complete Pack.esp
BD UUNP Collection.esp
Moonlight Tales Special Edition.esp
Better Vampire NPCs.esp
RSChildren.esp
Qw_RSChildren_AIOverhaul Patch.esp
SkyrimSewers.esp
Immersive Encounters.esp
Morning Fogs SSE.esp
Northern Bathhouses.esp
Skyrim Better Roads and Bridges - All In One - Merged.esp
Crime Overhaul Expanded.esp
Attack Dogs.esp
Cloaks.esp
YurianaWench.esp
Bijin_AIO 2018.esp
Atlas Legendary.esp
Sexy Follower Pack.esp
Immersive Patrols II.esp
MusicMerge_NR.esp
SexLab-AmorousAdventures.esp
Solitude Skyway SE.esp
CCO - Permanent Birthsigns.esp
CFTO-JK-Patch.esp
Apachii_DivineEleganceStore_Patch.esp
AuroraFollower.esp
LABikiniSSE.esp
Better City Entrances - All in one - SSE.esp
Convenient Horses.esp
notice board.esp
LADX_SSE.esp
EconomyOverhaul CV - CuttingRoomFloor Patch.esp
SpousesEnhancedSE.esp
HaremVolume2Naked.esp
MBWSNPCReplace_karliahnohood.esp
Leona.esp
Erylis.esp
FormsEdit.esp
Artifact Disenchanting - Dragonborn.esp
PAN_NPCs_DG.esp
Qw_PANNPCsDG_AIOverhaul Patch.esp
Artifact Disenchanting - Dawnguard.esp
SkyrimReputation_SSE.esp
Hubbies.esp
SexLabStopCombat.esp
NPCSelectForMCM.esp
MoonlightTalesMCM.esp
Immersive Encounters - RS Children Patch.esp
SGHairPackAIO.esp
KS Hairdo's.esp
Immersive Wenches -SG&KS hairs- Patch.esp
Immersive Wenches -Enslaved Wenches patch-.esp
ISC Enhanced Blood Patch.esp
Character Creation Overhaul.esp
WerewolfPerksExpanded.esp
CCO - Dynamic Skill Progression.esp
RSC CRF Patch.esp
TheCleaner.esp
LorkhanMoonlightGreatswordPack.esp
DustEffectsSSE.esp
SkyrimIsWindy.esp
UsefulDogs.esp
Attack Dogs - Winterhold Restored.esp
MilkModNEW.esp
MilkModNEW HF.esp
RDO - CRF + USSEP Patch.esp
Ars Metallica.esp
Cloaks - Dawnguard.esp
Cloaks_SMP_Patch.esp
Public Executions.esp
Facelight.esp
Deadly Wenches.esp
Womanized Obis with Wenches.esp
SommerRay.esp
OBIS SE - NoticeBoard - Addon.esp
FollowerWander2.esp
Unique Uniques.esp
ThaneWeaponsReborn.esp
MBWSFollowersReplacer.esp
FNISSexyMove.esp
Elemental_Staffs.esp
SLAL_K4Anims.esp
RohZima_AnimObjects.esp
SLAnimLoader.esp
MilkyObj.esp
NibblesAnimObjects.esp
SLAL_AnimationsByLeito.esp
SLALAnimObj.esp
AnubAnimObj.esp
DS3 Weapon Pack.esp
Dark Souls Item Pack by Team  TAL.esp
WondersofWeather.esp
SOS - Grower - Extended.esp
Chesko_WearableLantern.esp
RealRainSECoT.esp
XPMSE.esp
Atlas Compass Tweaks.esp
ClimatesOfTamriel-Interiors-Warm.esp
Lock_Overhaul.esp
J42_ArmorRatingRedux.esp
GQJ_DG_vampireamuletfix.esp
NB-Scars.esp
TSCoT.esp
Beards.esp
BlendedRoads.esp
SexLabDefeat.esp
Trade & Barter.esp
EconomyOverhaul CV - TradeandBarter Patch.esp
Schlongs of Skyrim.esp
CBBE.esp
SexLabDangerousNights2.esp
TDF Aroused Sexy Idles.esp
PAN_NPCs.esp
Qw_PANNPCs_AIOverhaul_CRF Patch.esp
Toccata as Elisif.esp
Whiterun2.esp
SolitudeNPC.esp
Alice.esp
Amber.esp
AmorAdvExtendedSSE.esp
Harem.esp
Qw_CloaksOfSkyrim_CRF Patch.esp
TheAmazingWorldOfBikiniArmor.esp
SexLab Eager NPCs.esp
RAO - ELFX Patch.esp
Sexy Skimpy Armor Sets.esp
Gildergreen Regrown.esp
MajesticMountains.esp
OBIS SE Patrols Addon.esp
RosaFollower.esp
Jennifer.esp
Rebekah.esp
ABMM.esp
Sorbi.esp
My Home Is Your Home.esp
Faction Crossbows.esp
SkyDreamKittens.esp
MBWS Followers II.esp
BBLuxurySuiteENM.esp
SexLab_DibellaCult_Sisters.esp
LazyHeels.esp
Toccata.esp
Ish's Souls to Perks.esp
SkyrimVR - USSEP Patch.esp
Chaconne.esp
SLALAnimObjBillyy.esp
YuiH's Screenshot Models - Freyane.esp
CubicHairRenewal.esp
YoungDawnguard.esp
TAWOBA Level Lists.esp
SexLab TDF Aggressive Prostitution.esp
dD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - Realistic.esp
FNIS.esp
vrik.esp
SOS Addons.esp
Sextreme Loading Screens.esp
icepenguinworldmapclassic.esp
mintylightningmod.esp
Imperious - Races of Skyrim.esp
Complete Alchemy & Cooking Overhaul.esp
Qw_CACO_RDO Patch.esp
Qw_CACO_ArsMetallica Patch.esp
BDSkimpyClothes.esp
SoundsofSkyrimComplete.esp
SoS_CoT_Patch.esp
SoS_TrueStorms_Patch.esp
EconomyOverhaul CV - CACO Patch.esp
ELFXEnhancer.esp
SoS_ELFX+Enhancer_Patch.esp
SOS - Revealing Outfits.esp
RealisticWaterTwo.esp
RealisticWaterTwo - Waves.esp
JKs Skyrim Patches.esp
Real Clouds.esp
Smashed Patch.esp

Posted
Quote
7 hours ago, Sasquatcher said:

I'm playing in Skyrim VR, just a heads up.

It seems that I've finalized my load order and I've started a new game after finding out that my game crashes near Falkreath hold. I started my modding all over to try and get rid of the bug and it did...but now I CTD further into Falkreath, in the mountain trails once things get snowy. From what I've been reading, this is most likely a Navmesh error.

Here is my load order, but some of the esps are inactive as I've merged them after checking for errors in xEdit and cleaning appropriately, also a few are mods that I've converted from Oldrim after seeing that they are safe to convert. I use Vortex and have fixed all mod compatibilities that it has let me know of and used Mator Smash to make a Smashed Patch.

If anyone can give me any insight as to what exactly could be causing this problem, I'd be super grateful. Deploying mods in Vortex can be REALLY time consuming and tiresome when you have tons of mods, especially in VR!

Skyrim.esm
Update.esm
Dawnguard.esm
HearthFires.esm
Dragonborn.esm
SkyrimVR.esm
RSkyrimChildren.esm
Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch.esp
Lanterns Of Skyrim - All In One - Main.esm
MajesticMountains_Landscape.esm
BBLuxurySuite.esm
Apachii_DivineEleganceStore.esm
SexLab.esm
HentaiPregnancy.esm
ApachiiHair.esm
ClimatesOfTamriel.esm
SGHairPackBase.esm
Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm
CreatureFramework.esm
ZaZAnimationPack.esm
SexLabAroused.esm
LSFX-SSE-Audiosettings.esp
Reverb and Ambiance Overhaul - Skyrim.esp
SMIM-SE-Merged-All.esp
ELFX - Exteriors.esp
Immersive Wenches.esp
SkyrimImprovedPuddles-DG-HF-DB.esp
Immersive Sounds - Compendium.esp
EnhancedLightsandFX.esp
Cutting Room Floor.esp
Qw_ISC_CRF Patch.esp
1nivWICCloaks.esp
dD - Enhanced Blood Main.esp
Mortal Enemies.esp
AmazingFollowerTweaks.esp
DeadlySpellImpacts.esp
Qw_DeadlySpellImpacts_ISC Patch.esp
ELFX - NoPlayerHomes.esp
SkyUI_SE.esp
ELFX - Weathers.esp
TrueStormsSE.esp
EmbersHD.esp
Guard Dialogue Overhaul.esp
Apachii_DES_SMP_Patch.esp
1nivWICCloaks_SMP_Patch.esp
LadyLaceCloaks_EN.esp
LadyLaceCloaks_EN_SMP_Patch.esp
FCO - Follower Commentary Overhaul.esp
Relationship Dialogue Overhaul.esp
JKs Skyrim.esp
Smilodon - Combat of Skyrim.esp
SexLab_Solutions.esp
RDO - AFT v1.66 Patch.esp
Summermyst - Enchantments of Skyrim.esp
BikiniAscendVolume1.esp
MoreNastyCritters.esp
Friendlier Taverns.esp
EconomyOverhaulandSpeechcraftImprovements.esp
WeightLessTrueAll.esp
RUSTIC SOULGEMS - Sorted.esp
Qw_RusticSoulgemsSorted_ISC Patch.esp
MoreBanditCamps.esp
OBIS SE.esp
Immersive Hold Borders SE.esp
BetterDocks-MP-DLC-Compatible.esp
Bikini Ascend Level Lists.esp
Artifact Disenchanment.esp
Thunderchild - Epic Shout Package.esp
AI Overhaul.esp
SexLab_DibellaCult.esp
MajesticMountains_Moss.esp
A Few Vanilla Home Replacers.esp
OwnCivilWar.esp
Skyrim Unbound.esp
CFTO.esp
VariousGuardReplacer.esp
Winterhold Restored.esp
Winterhold Restored - JKs Skyrim Patch.esp
Artifact Disenchanting.esp
Hot Springs.esp
ZIA_Complete Pack.esp
BD UUNP Collection.esp
Moonlight Tales Special Edition.esp
Better Vampire NPCs.esp
RSChildren.esp
Qw_RSChildren_AIOverhaul Patch.esp
SkyrimSewers.esp
Immersive Encounters.esp
Morning Fogs SSE.esp
Northern Bathhouses.esp
Skyrim Better Roads and Bridges - All In One - Merged.esp
Crime Overhaul Expanded.esp
Attack Dogs.esp
Cloaks.esp
YurianaWench.esp
Bijin_AIO 2018.esp
Atlas Legendary.esp
Sexy Follower Pack.esp
Immersive Patrols II.esp
MusicMerge_NR.esp
SexLab-AmorousAdventures.esp
Solitude Skyway SE.esp
CCO - Permanent Birthsigns.esp
CFTO-JK-Patch.esp
Apachii_DivineEleganceStore_Patch.esp
AuroraFollower.esp
LABikiniSSE.esp
Better City Entrances - All in one - SSE.esp
Convenient Horses.esp
notice board.esp
LADX_SSE.esp
EconomyOverhaul CV - CuttingRoomFloor Patch.esp
SpousesEnhancedSE.esp
HaremVolume2Naked.esp
MBWSNPCReplace_karliahnohood.esp
Leona.esp
Erylis.esp
FormsEdit.esp
Artifact Disenchanting - Dragonborn.esp
PAN_NPCs_DG.esp
Qw_PANNPCsDG_AIOverhaul Patch.esp
Artifact Disenchanting - Dawnguard.esp
SkyrimReputation_SSE.esp
Hubbies.esp
SexLabStopCombat.esp
NPCSelectForMCM.esp
MoonlightTalesMCM.esp
Immersive Encounters - RS Children Patch.esp
SGHairPackAIO.esp
KS Hairdo's.esp
Immersive Wenches -SG&KS hairs- Patch.esp
Immersive Wenches -Enslaved Wenches patch-.esp
ISC Enhanced Blood Patch.esp
Character Creation Overhaul.esp
WerewolfPerksExpanded.esp
CCO - Dynamic Skill Progression.esp
RSC CRF Patch.esp
TheCleaner.esp
LorkhanMoonlightGreatswordPack.esp
DustEffectsSSE.esp
SkyrimIsWindy.esp
UsefulDogs.esp
Attack Dogs - Winterhold Restored.esp
MilkModNEW.esp
MilkModNEW HF.esp
RDO - CRF + USSEP Patch.esp
Ars Metallica.esp
Cloaks - Dawnguard.esp
Cloaks_SMP_Patch.esp
Public Executions.esp
Facelight.esp
Deadly Wenches.esp
Womanized Obis with Wenches.esp
SommerRay.esp
OBIS SE - NoticeBoard - Addon.esp
FollowerWander2.esp
Unique Uniques.esp
ThaneWeaponsReborn.esp
MBWSFollowersReplacer.esp
FNISSexyMove.esp
Elemental_Staffs.esp
SLAL_K4Anims.esp
RohZima_AnimObjects.esp
SLAnimLoader.esp
MilkyObj.esp
NibblesAnimObjects.esp
SLAL_AnimationsByLeito.esp
SLALAnimObj.esp
AnubAnimObj.esp
DS3 Weapon Pack.esp
Dark Souls Item Pack by Team  TAL.esp
WondersofWeather.esp
SOS - Grower - Extended.esp
Chesko_WearableLantern.esp
RealRainSECoT.esp
XPMSE.esp
Atlas Compass Tweaks.esp
ClimatesOfTamriel-Interiors-Warm.esp
Lock_Overhaul.esp
J42_ArmorRatingRedux.esp
GQJ_DG_vampireamuletfix.esp
NB-Scars.esp
TSCoT.esp
Beards.esp
BlendedRoads.esp
SexLabDefeat.esp
Trade & Barter.esp
EconomyOverhaul CV - TradeandBarter Patch.esp
Schlongs of Skyrim.esp
CBBE.esp
SexLabDangerousNights2.esp
TDF Aroused Sexy Idles.esp
PAN_NPCs.esp
Qw_PANNPCs_AIOverhaul_CRF Patch.esp
Toccata as Elisif.esp
Whiterun2.esp
SolitudeNPC.esp
Alice.esp
Amber.esp
AmorAdvExtendedSSE.esp
Harem.esp
Qw_CloaksOfSkyrim_CRF Patch.esp
TheAmazingWorldOfBikiniArmor.esp
SexLab Eager NPCs.esp
RAO - ELFX Patch.esp
Sexy Skimpy Armor Sets.esp
Gildergreen Regrown.esp
MajesticMountains.esp
OBIS SE Patrols Addon.esp
RosaFollower.esp
Jennifer.esp
Rebekah.esp
ABMM.esp
Sorbi.esp
My Home Is Your Home.esp
Faction Crossbows.esp
SkyDreamKittens.esp
MBWS Followers II.esp
BBLuxurySuiteENM.esp
SexLab_DibellaCult_Sisters.esp
LazyHeels.esp
Toccata.esp
Ish's Souls to Perks.esp
SkyrimVR - USSEP Patch.esp
Chaconne.esp
SLALAnimObjBillyy.esp
YuiH's Screenshot Models - Freyane.esp
CubicHairRenewal.esp
YoungDawnguard.esp
TAWOBA Level Lists.esp
SexLab TDF Aggressive Prostitution.esp
dD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - Realistic.esp
FNIS.esp
vrik.esp
SOS Addons.esp
Sextreme Loading Screens.esp
icepenguinworldmapclassic.esp
mintylightningmod.esp
Imperious - Races of Skyrim.esp
Complete Alchemy & Cooking Overhaul.esp
Qw_CACO_RDO Patch.esp
Qw_CACO_ArsMetallica Patch.esp
BDSkimpyClothes.esp
SoundsofSkyrimComplete.esp
SoS_CoT_Patch.esp
SoS_TrueStorms_Patch.esp
EconomyOverhaul CV - CACO Patch.esp
ELFXEnhancer.esp
SoS_ELFX+Enhancer_Patch.esp
SOS - Revealing Outfits.esp
RealisticWaterTwo.esp
RealisticWaterTwo - Waves.esp
JKs Skyrim Patches.esp
Real Clouds.esp
Smashed Patch.esp

 

I'm not familiar with VR but with other Skyrim having a crash in the same location usually indicates a corrupt mesh (not navmesh). Thus, your issue is likely due to one or more mods that impact the look of the area in which you are having the issue.

Posted

I have purged all mods and the CTD does not persist. I have also activated around 70 mods that affect the world space that I thought may be the culprit and DID still get the CTD. It seems its somewhere in those. I cant remember them all off of the top of my head, but I activated things related to weather, mesh fixes and beautification, patrols, bandits and bandit camps, hair packs, body replacers, NPC replacers/beautifiers, town replacers and armor. Oh, and the Notice Board.

Posted
Quote
12 minutes ago, Sasquatcher said:

I have purged all mods and the CTD does not persist. I have also activated around 70 mods that affect the world space that I thought may be the culprit and DID still get the CTD. It seems its somewhere in those. I cant remember them all off of the top of my head, but I activated things related to weather, mesh fixes and beautification, patrols, bandits and bandit camps, hair packs, body replacers, NPC replacers/beautifiers, town replacers and armor. Oh, and the Notice Board.

 

I'm sorry I can't be more specific for you. This is the type of issue where you take those 70 mods and add ten back and try it. No problem? Add ten more back. Rinse and repeat until you CTD. Then take out the last 10 mods and add them back one at a time until you find the culprit. As a personal observation make notes of which ones you've added back when or, like me, you'll be adding mods 30-40 back have the CTD and not remember which were the last ones and have to start doing the same thing over only with 40 mods instead of 70.

Posted
3 hours ago, Sasquatcher said:

I have purged all mods and the CTD does not persist. I have also activated around 70 mods that affect the world space that I thought may be the culprit and DID still get the CTD. It seems its somewhere in those. I cant remember them all off of the top of my head, but I activated things related to weather, mesh fixes and beautification, patrols, bandits and bandit camps, hair packs, body replacers, NPC replacers/beautifiers, town replacers and armor. Oh, and the Notice Board.

this is why things like the create seperator in mo2 really does work well. you can move the seprator to the last mod you unchecked or checked and find your problem much faster. it can also be used to separate mods into sections. [Audio], [Followers], [Armor], [Cheats], [Sloot], etc 

Not really related but it is, you did clean your Bethesda supplied files?

Posted
9 hours ago, Psalam said:

I'm sorry I can't be more specific for you. This is the type of issue where you take those 70 mods and add ten back and try it. No problem? Add ten more back. Rinse and repeat until you CTD. Then take out the last 10 mods and add them back one at a time until you find the culprit. As a personal observation make notes of which ones you've added back when or, like me, you'll be adding mods 30-40 back have the CTD and not remember which were the last ones and have to start doing the same thing over only with 40 mods instead of 70.

I know that feeling....

5 hours ago, jaeos said:

this is why things like the create seperator in mo2 really does work well. you can move the seprator to the last mod you unchecked or checked and find your problem much faster. it can also be used to separate mods into sections. [Audio], [Followers], [Armor], [Cheats], [Sloot], etc 

Not really related but it is, you did clean your Bethesda supplied files?

Yes, I have.

Posted
3 hours ago, Sasquatcher said:

I know that feeling....

Yes, I have.

out of all the mods there i see only 1 that might be a huge culprit and 3 that are possibles. the one i would think is majestic mountains/majestic mountains moss. second would be the bandit camp mod, last would be the cloud mod but you have plenty like arsmetallica i have not messed with at all, i had a ctd when i had the majestic mountains, i switched to cliffs and so far with have not had a ctd. but once you do figure out the exact mod, let us know so we can also take a look at it. (3-4 reports of a ctd at this exact location are better than one)

Posted

Will do. I figured those three would be the most likely, but I really didn't want it to be. I'm really enjoying fighting tons of bandits with OBIS and Real Clouds makes the sky amazing. I suppose I could do without Majestic Mountains. Out of those three, Real Clouds is the only Oldrim mod that I ported myself with SE CK and SSENIF Optimizer, but I played a great deal on a few other saves with it and had no problems (until I got to Falkreath).

Posted

Hmm...this looks embarrassing. As I add more mods back in, it looks like I found the culprit and it was unrelated to the other likely ones, but is very specific to my situation. Some time ago, Vortex had some sort of terrible error and the data for most of mods that it had stored suddenly turned to...0 kb. The files for everything were still there, in place, but were made useless since they had no data at all. The whole reason I was in the area that gave me the CTD was to recruit Kofmans Rosa, who, as it turns out, was one of the few mods that I overlooked and did not redownload. It turns out her files were a wopping 0 kb and that I was closer to her location than I realized when the game was CTDing as I became close enough for all of the nothing that she had turned into to be rendered. Now that I have redownloaded her after realizing this, I am no longer getting CTDs in the area...for now.

In case there really IS another issue at hand beside her, I'll keep posting until I find any other culprit, or someone politely asks me to stop, in case any one else needs a hand.

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