wulfgar677 Posted February 17, 2019 Posted February 17, 2019 Hi all, firts of all I really want to say how much I appreciate the community (or "people using the website" as most would say!) Since I really admire some of you, i wanted to ask a few questions that have been troubling me lately: How do you deal with trust? Not just in romantic relations but also in friendship and at work: When can you trust someone? Up to what extent do you trust people? Especially in the contexts of ONS. I have recently moved to a northern European country from a Mediterranean one. This means I (M, 23) have a really easy time meeting people, getting along well and having sex, but I often suffer from the complete lack of trust people then have in me. Folks are damn cold here. Consequently I feel I really can't trust them and this leads me to general paranoia and unhappyness. Miscommunication is also an issue which makes trust more difficult. This post actually helped me make sense of a lot of things, but what I really want to hear is your personal opinions and life experiences. More specifically, I was seeing two women who were very promiscuous. Being poly myself, that wasn't the problem, but they would simply have no regard for me as a human and treat me like a disposable piece of meat. When I calmly pointed out my unsatisfaction with their lack of consideration they accused me of being possessive and needy and in both cases they simply insulted me and I left. I felt really stupid in trusting someone I barely knew just because we shared intimacy. But if you can't trust people you have sex with, who can you?
AKM Posted February 17, 2019 Posted February 17, 2019 "How do you deal with trust?" Trust, as with a number of words in today's language, has lost its potency due to over-use. Personally, I can count the people I trust completely on one hand, and only one is not a blood relative. I've known him for many, many years, and he is, for all intents and purposes, my brother. I don't give my trust to just anyone. It takes time to build a relationship where you can trust, especially on a sexual level, double especially due to the, as you specifically stated: promiscuous nature of today's society. There are almost none of the old restraints left that used to keep people from doing selfish things that might (or will) negatively affect someone else. Specifically, for me, that means I don't partake in activities such as you describe, where I don't know what these people are doing when they're not with me. As for coldness, that might be just the general attitude people in that geographic location have. In some places, people are far more closed than in others. I'm a bit confused by your contradictory statement: " I (M, 23) have a really easy time meeting people, getting along well and having sex, but I often suffer from the complete lack of trust people then have in me. Folks are damn cold here. Consequently I feel I really can't trust them..." You have an easy time meeting people, which to me indicates that at least you're putting yourself out there to be available to meet people; but you then seem to jump right to sex before you really know WHO it is that you've met - BEFORE you can trust them. Is this an accurate understanding? My solution thereto would be to back off and take things FAR more slowly than you are. Oh, and you're not alone in doing things that way. A friend of mine did things similarly, and it messed with her head, big time. That's almost word for word what I told her: "You're moving too fast. SLOW. DOWN." I wasn't the only one to tell her this, either, and it happened over the course of years. If you're worried that any specific individual will get tired of waiting for you (to trust them), my take would be that they're not worth your trust anyway, and it's a good thing that they got impatient with you and moved on. "...and this leads me to general paranoia and unhappyness. Miscommunication is also an issue which makes trust more difficult." Yeah, I'm not the least bit surprised. Again, my take: Your paranoia is from getting too close too quickly to people that you simply haven't had time to learn to trust. As such, that paranoia is well founded. It's attempting to protect you from potential bad situations, as you rush headlong into you-know-not-what. As a basic principle, things are almost never as they seem at first glance. That's why reconnaissance, standing off from a situation and looking at it from a distance - BEFORE - you get involved (especially emotionally in a potential romantic relationship), is so important. Success, in many endeavors, is based in large part on preparation. Like building a multi-story building, a relationship without a solid foundation isn't going to be very stable. It is far too easy, if you allow yourself to get emotionally involved before getting to really know someone, to ignore signs that would otherwise be obvious - should you not put the emotion into it, which tends to block your ability to think clearly - and logically - about a situation/person/whatever. Stand off and analyze first, before getting involved. Miscommunication is indeed a huge issue. Like many aspects of human interaction, proper transference of ideas requires a common understanding. Communication itself is a four step process. 1. You have an idea. 2. You put that idea into words. 3. The person you are speaking to hears/reads those words 4. The person you are speaking to interprets those words based on A. The context of the situation, but far more importantly B. The context of THEIR past experiences. Any of those can lead to a failure to have the idea you thought of properly transferred to the person you're speaking to. The only real answer I have for that is, again, time, and number of interactions. You will learn, with enough time and interactions, what THAT particular individual's standard is. You will form a foundation, based on past experience and knowledge of how they interacted with out on other occasions, with which to form the future of your relationship with them; weather that be trust or distrust. The most important factor, again is time which allows the formation of that foundation from which to pull context from. That's my basic take on 'one night stands'. You're putting yourself into a situation where you have all but zero idea of what/who you're dealing with. By doing so, you MUST intrinsically trust them - even though you have absolutely ZERO basis on which to do so. Such things can easily lead to well founded paranoia. Work relationships can be difficult as well. The main points you must remember: You are NOT there to make friends. 1. You are there to work, get paid for that work, and go on about your life. 2. You are in direct competition with everyone you work with. Both at your level, and at every other level within the organization. You can have a friendly work environment, certainly, but you MUST remember that no one there is your friend. That person whose been there a while, who's showing you the way things are done? That's not out of the kindness of their heart, it's because the company wants you to be as productive as possible. 3. Just like the police in this country (USA) say, "Anything you say, can, AND WILL, be used against you." Don't ever forget that. Don't partake in workplace gossip and definitely don't put someone else in a bad position for your own good (it's called 'throwing someone under the bus' here). That will get noticed, and might come back to bite you. (You did it to someone else, someone else will now have fewer problems with doing the same to you.) Sounds kind of harsh, and it is, but the truth often is. Only after quite a while of knowing how various individuals are, can you start to let some walls down and even think about trusting individuals, but be careful, as you really never know someone else's motivations. "More specifically, I was seeing two women who were very promiscuous. Being poly myself, that wasn't the problem," Promiscuity, again, leading directly from a lack of restraint on their part (and yours, too, of course). "but they would simply have no regard for me as a human and treat me like a disposable piece of meat." Of course they did, because to them, you are. You're just a fuck toy to them, nothing more. "When I calmly pointed out my unsatisfaction with their lack of consideration they accused me of being possessive and needy and in both cases they simply insulted me and I left." Good choice, but your "unsatisfaction with their lack of consideration", to my thinking is coming directly from the fact that YOU want a more emotional base on this interaction. Again, that's not what they're there for. THEY are there for one thing, and one thing only: To get laid. Sex. Period. What you are to them is an available penis, nothing more, nothing less. "they accused me of being possessive and needy" Of course they did, and, to their minds, you WERE being possessive and needy. Again, all they want from you is sex. All you are to them is a penis. A dildo, that happens to be flesh. That's it! "and in both cases they simply insulted me" That's a typical response to many things. Male and female. It got them what they wanted: The perceived possessive and needy human dildo to leave before things got even MORE complicated. "I felt really stupid in trusting someone I barely knew just because we shared intimacy." Good, because quite frankly, that WAS a stupid move. I've said it earlier, and I'll say it again: You're trusting someone you barely knew, who you didn't have the background with to SHOW you that they are worthy of your trust. THAT'S your problem. You trust too damn easily... just like my friend. "But if you can't trust people you have sex with, who can you?" Oh but you CAN trust people you have sex with - IF you take the time (that you don't have for a One Night Stand) to form that foundation on which the trust can be based. One night stands are NOT about trust, sir. They're about sex. Period, end of story. "Body count" as the saying goes. You're just a number during a one night stand, regardless of weather you're male or female. What you seem to want is a relationship, even a polyamerous one, and you're NOT going to find that doing One Night Stands, in all likelihood. My suggestion to you would be to do some research. Find out where people who are interested in such things meet up, and then go to such events. You're not likely to find such non-standard interests just casting about in society. At the same time, you'd be meeting people in a group, at least semi-public environment, where your paranoia (presumably based on letting your guard down under conditions where you're alone with very few people) would be less likely to surface, as you'd be safer. That group environment, where the pressures to actually have sex are diminished, and the emphasis is more on "getting to find a likely candidate(s), and then getting to know WHO they are as people" will be far better for you than what you've been doing, I think. It will give you time, and an environment where it is much easier to walk away from a bad situation without stigma/pressure to stay. I don't know what's available there, but here in the U.S. there's a website called FetLife. It's at least a starting place. I only ever talked to one person on there, and it had absolutely nothing to do with interests, just other life experiences. I seem to recall that it was a good place to find the type of group in-person meet ups that I discussed in the previous paragraph. Just be aware, as I'm sure you probably are, that there are some REALLY not so great people out there, especially who are interested in non-standard stuff. Do be careful! Since this kinda morphed into "general tips on dating", one more thing: Figure out early what they want versus what you want. If the two aren't the same, or close enough that they can be made to work even possibly, it's best to move on before you end up investing too much emotionally into a situation with someone who can't fulfill your needs or you theirs.
wulfgar677 Posted March 2, 2019 Author Posted March 2, 2019 AKM, my silence so far has not been due to resentment or carelessness. I have been thinking about your advice for quite a while. First of all your effort is immensely appreciated. It is rare to get such deep, empathic and competent counsel, I really want to thank you for it. Your words have been truly medicine. Not only they are honest and constructive, but it was also impossible for me to feel any sort of resistance to your (fair) criticism of my ways. While I consider myself open and eclectic, I still couldn't help noticing how well you presented your message. In the last two weeks two similar opportunities have presented themselves: a casual conversation, a quick date and straight to my place. This time, however, your advice came to mind. After all you have written I believe it is fair that you should know how helpful your words have been. In both cases, I did not have sex with the other person. Even if in intimacy, I decided to get to know the other person more before sexual contact. In the first case my date (F, 35) told me she was simply looking for a third sexual 'friend' in her stable. As you said, a fucktoy. I mentioned to the other person that I'm ok with promiscuity as long as I am treated with dignity (this time BEFORE having sex) and she immediately went cold. Needless to say the person (who had been complaining of not being able to find a stable monogamous relationship) ended up insulting me after I refused her sexual advances and told her I did not feel comfortable having sex on a first date if I'm unsure about how she's going to treat me ('hell hath no fury...'). In the second case (F, 20) getting to know each other slowly and gently was not only a lot more pleasant, but also very beneficial: I discovered she is a very kind and sensitive person and suffers because she is 'still' a virgin. I think we're establishing a healthy relation and I can only imagine the drama and misunderstandings if we had both decided to have sex after knowing each other for only 4 hours. I'll thank you again AKM, and if ever you need to someone to talk to or to vent, you can count on me.
Guest Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 trust is earned not given,my personal view i trust no one,i was engaged for 6 years fell apart, people work to their own agenda and it doesn't always include you,trust yourself
AKM Posted March 25, 2019 Posted March 25, 2019 On 3/2/2019 at 8:25 AM, wulfgar677 said: First of all your effort is immensely appreciated... Figured you'd get a notice if I quoted something, so there's that. I'm really glad it helped. I've a tendency to dive into this sort of analysis pretty hard, and sometimes I think I say more than is appreciated. Might be something to take note of, how it is possible to present less than "nice" information in such a way that it takes the edge off without losing the potency of the message. Being able to do so has come in handy for me a number of times. Not at all surprised to hear the ages attached to those outcomes. Younger people tend to be more open to new ideas, and open in general, whereas those with more life experience tend to have a better idea of exactly what they want and are sometimes far less willing to deviate from their chosen path, even at the expense of losing out on new experiences. Just a thought, you might want to re-evaluate your dating strategy. Look at the norm of the one night stand. It's exactly what you described: A quick encounter, then straight to a location where sex can be pursued. Far more importantly, in the current world and dating environment, that specific change in location could have been, and in all likelihood was, taken as a direct, specific, signal that sex was going to ensue after arrival. I might be wrong, but if I were a gambler, I'd bet money that that exact train of thought was the reason for the 35 year old's immediate cool down when you told her you didn't want to get on with it that evening. Remember: By bringing her to your place, you had signaled to her your intent to have sex with her. Unspoken, perhaps, but despite what some people seem to think, there's more than one way (language) to indicate sexual interest and intent. One of the biggest ones being body language, and a close secondary being societal norms, such as the age old "lets go to my place". As for the 20 year old, it sounds like you've a good start there. What you've described is about as close to the old courtship rituals as one might be able to find in modern times. Laugh if you like, but I think you've discovered exactly why things were done that way in the past: it allowed for a much better understanding of the 'who', rather than just the 'what'. You're going to still have the misunderstandings. The drama can be reduced greatly by an understanding by both parties that, if there's a potential misunderstanding, you need to figure it out, and NOT make assumptions until you know as much as you can about the specifics. An example I ran across some years ago spoke of a date that included sidewalk chalk and possibly a picnic basket. The date flopped, but the guy kept the right attitude about it: 'The response I got from her made it obvious that she's not the female for me. Not a waste, just an understanding.' It's a good attitude to have, and an excellent choice of a low cost date. Another thing to keep in mind dates wise, whatever you show her on date number one will set the bar for all future interactions. If you spend boatloads of money on a fancy date, she'll expect you to spend money on her ad perpetuum. Translation: If you spend a bunch of money, they'll be after your money or earning potential. If you don't spend money on them, they're less likely to be after your money, but might still be after your future earnings potential. I'm glad you're taking a learning spin on this, rather than doing what I did and walking away. It can be difficult, but given the right person, I'm told it's well worth all the effort and emotional pain. By the way, sikkboy is correct as well, about trust being earned, not given. Unfortunately, the ease with which romantic involvements can be undone in current society has led to the ability to act far more easily on the 'own agenda's' he speaks of far more readily than in the past. Couple that with the shear speed of involvements today, and it's not a recipe for success, generally speaking.
Veladarius Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 Trust, like Respect, is something that must be earned. There are various levels for both but the best way to tell if they are worthy of either is that they do what they say they would do even if they think no one is watching them. People have many faces they show to others so how they conduct themselves when no one is looking and they believe there is no risk if they do something contrary to what they say is the most telling. What the person is like when they are not wearing any of those masks and are themselves. Me? I trust my wife of nearly 19 years. She has had my back when I was at my worst due to mental issues (and she still does). We have been through some major financial hardships during that time but she stuck with me through it all.
2dk2c.2 Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 11 hours ago, Veladarius said: Trust, like Respect, is something that must be earned. There are various levels for both but the best way to tell if they are worthy of either is that they do what they say they would do even if they think no one is watching them. People have many faces they show to others so how they conduct themselves when no one is looking and they believe there is no risk if they do something contrary to what they say is the most telling. What the person is like when they are not wearing any of those masks and are themselves. Me? I trust my wife of nearly 19 years. She has had my back when I was at my worst due to mental issues (and she still does). We have been through some major financial hardships during that time but she stuck with me through it all. I don't trust subtext, I wish people really meant what they said, but that's not what I meant to say. In fact I don't know why this thread gets resurrected every three months, that's more pertinent to what I am thinking right this exact second. That, and "where did everyone go?" "Why can't I see others' ignore lists?" Why are those people posting (and why do the same people start threads lately?) No, I don't trust the internet, or salespeople, or landlords. Beautiful women, sure, but that never works out. My wife? She had an aversion to discussing business, any business. Her business. It became a gigantic PITA after she died, So bottom line, if you can trust someone, if someone can trust you, You're rare and worthy of praise and admiration. And I've always admired you anyway. I don't *trust* you, I don't know you well enough, but I sure as hell think you're admirable. -------------- Totally Ot, I don't trust a place like this one, But I'm mostly here for mods. I question the timing, are we talking about some forbidden subject referentially? (Spell check says "Referentially" isn't a word, but I don't trust spell check) Telling people what they can and cannot say, having the power to punish them if they don't abide [by something], and knowing that, overall, this is a place to pick up mods and also that places like twitter and facebook (and snapchat) exist, narrows my "trust" to a teeny tiny pinhole. It's too broad of a word anyway. Bottom line: You have to trust some things, and when they betray that trust, it's headline news, but you keep having to trust them anyway.
Reginald_001 Posted January 16, 2020 Posted January 16, 2020 34 minutes ago, HUNK RE2 said: i trust no one not even family I have the same. Unfortunately I've found that at one point anyone can have an agenda that doesn't match my well being, even (or sometimes especially) those closest to you. On 10/16/2019 at 2:39 PM, 2dk2c.2 said: I don't trust subtext, I wish people really meant what they said, but that's not what I meant to say. <snip> You are not --and never will be-- on my ignore list. ❤️
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