Sex mods for Fallout 3 (NOT new vegas)

[Tregarin]

I think what Tregarin was complaining about was the lack of choice in quests.

 

And in fairness to Tregarin' date=' that did come across. All the same, there's a world of difference between saying that New Vegas quests have more branches (which I think we'd all agree) and saying that FO3 was linear in every respect in comparison to FO3, which was how the comment read.

 

My point is that in some respects FO3 is a lot less linear than NV.[/quote']

I think, in all fairness, that had you read my entire comment, you would have noticed that I was talking about the linear way FO3 quests were.

 

Note that I did NOT say that FO3 was completely linear, so in all fairness, you have read something into my post that wasn't there. (which I tried to point out in my follow up post)

 

However...

or you could choose to

4:Go through the Centaur infested toxic dump and cross to the Primm Pass

OK' date=' I was being lazy. I tended to lump getting eaten by a centaur in same category as being eaten by deathclaw.[/quote']

That's about 120degrees in a totally different direction/area... and there is no way that the basic centaur is even close to how bad a basic Deathclaw is... lumping them both in together is disingenuous.

5: go from south of Nipton through the southern part then go north

(The Path I prefer)

Me too. That's option one. Go allllll the way down the map just in order to go alllll the way back up again.

Like going alllll the way around most of the Captial just to sneak your way to Rivet City via the river?

 

Here's a bloody good question... how do you get to ThreeDog? Is there more than one route' date=' can you do it without having to take part in the bloody story, does it let you avoid that fucking Behemoth? No... and this is the point. When it comes to anything other than just wandering around, FO3 is incredibly linear.

6: Go through hidden valley then Scorpion Clutch

(Completely doable if you acquired needed supply and the combat armor' date=' but I don't like this path to be honest.)

[/quote']

Getting eaten by a radscorpion. Of if you want to grind until you have the levels and kit to survive, file it under piddling around in goodsprings.

Level 2, varmint rifle, leather armour... and I hadn't even done the Goodsprings fight...

 

Guess what? Straight through without any problem... since the only scorpions were the piddling little bark scorpions.

 

Have you even been to this area when at a low level??

7: Go West through the way Benny came and avoid some cavadors

Getting eaten by Cazadores.

There are just 2 of them' date=' and Victor kills them for you... you can avoid the rest by going over the hill to the east. (no invisible wall... I like doing that route, though it's a thin line to take to avoid the cazadors and the deathclaws)

9: Or you could finish the Powder Ganger quest chain' date=' gain some levels then attempt the above.

[/quote']

Piddling around in Goodsprings.

No.... piddling around near Primm, where the story wants you to go, by the way... and you then get the equipment to really take on places like the Centaur pools or scorpion gultch.

 

I'm getting the idea you are just trying to dismiss any possibility of other routes because they are a challenge.

Well, the easiest approach for the mutie with heavy weapon is to go around. You can veer right and cross the next bridge down. You'll get sniped at by raiders,

Eaten by raiders...

but they're too far away to be more than a nuisance, and you need to stay low sneaking past the mutie infested church,

Eaten by muties.

but it's a lot easier than dodging radscorpions in the pass.

It isn't though, is it? Even going through the pass, there are only a small handful of Bark scorpions there, unless you're doing the BoS hidden quest.

Or you can go the other way. Head to Arefu, watch out for the two raiders playing baseball, stay well south of Kealyn's Bed and Breakfast, and cross the river where it runs dry one the far side of the bridge. Easy.

But the various rock walls mean you can't get too far away... oh yes, rock faces you can't climb force you to take certain routes in FO3 just like FNV.

 

This is the point, it doesn't matter how much you claim you could go anywhere in FO3, it still had it's ways of funnelling you to go a certain specific way. Which is another reason that complaining that FNV does it and that's something you don't like about FNV just sounds hollow.

 

I'm not saying FO3 uses the landscape to do that as much as FNV... that great lump in the middle of the south of the map can be annoying... but there are many ways around it other than the easy "no challenge because challenges are not fun" way. (and given you just explained two challenging ways to get past certain areas, which were identical in concept to the ways you were given to get to Vegas, just why the hell is it fun in FO3 but the same thing isn't in FNV??)

 

Then again, I AM saying that FO3 does it just as much, if not worse than FNV once you get into the city... the area of FO3 where most of the stuff goes on makes you suffer what you complain about FNV doing... while FNV does it in an area where not a lot is going on.

Personally' date=' I don't see the difference.

[/quote']

So try the same approach in NV. Cazadores in the pass? You can veer left and run into the invisible wall that's on top of all the damn mountains because the devs didn't want you walking around their monsters, or you can veer to the right and run into the other invisible wall on top of the other mountain. Or you can carry on trying to edge past them, and get dropped into their midst when the ledge you've been inching along for the last ten minutes suddenly stops being supportive.

 

That's the difference to my mind.

Wow... I've used about 4 different routes past the cazadors up there... and I've never had the problem you mention.

 

Sneaking past them at a distance, going over the hills, skirting the quarry... I've got through a few times without having to draw a weapon. How in the hells is that different from what you suggest for FO3?

Exactly my point... almost every single quest/story in FO3 was like you were reading a book. It leaves only the appeal (after the first few playthroughs) that you can just wander around just about anywhere.

And to be fair' date=' I do tend to regard quests (after the first time) as an unnecessary distraction from me establishing my slaver empire. And I agree, the quests in FO:NV generally branch more than in FO3.

 

Still, it's not as bad as you'd sometimes think reading this board. I mean look the family: two ways to get the quest, a half dozen places to go looking, two ways in to find the family. Then you have options to break in to see the west kid, to charm it out of one of the girls, to just pick/hack the security, or to play Vance's game and work out that they all think they're vampires. Then you have the option of persuading the kid to pull himself together and get on with his life, to embrace his inner emo and stay with vance, or to wipe them all out on the grounds that they're a pack of cannibal bastards and mad as a box of frogs to boot.

[/quote']

One way to get the quest... if you skip taking it from Lucy you get it in Aerfu. But you HAVE to go there anyway. That's not choice.

All the places to go looking, but all lead to the same "choice"

Two ways in, which are next to each other, if I recall correctly.

 

Then you get some choice... how to get in to see the kid. And what does it do to the quest? Sweet fuck all! It's linear... no matter what you do, it's the same damned result!

 

Finally, you get some real choice... at the end of the quest chain. (didn't I say that?) Stay, go or kill them all... it's boring, and has no impact on you.

 

 

Now compare it to Bolder City... you can go in guns blazing, (not a good idea, but fun) you can just walk in and slap the khans quickly and save the hostages, you can sneak about and quietly kill the khans, or you can try to negotiate... and every choice will have an effect over HOW the quest ends.

 

Get the hostages killed, gain NCR Infamy. Kill the Khans, gain Khan Infamy. Negotiate, gain fame with Khans and NCR. What you do effects how whole groups will see you no matter what karma you have. THAT is choice when it comes to quests... and it is something that FO3 never had.

 

Which is why FO3 doesn't get much love from me...

That was the first one I though of. Offhand, I can't think of a quest in NV that has that much variation in it.

"That ol' sun"

 

You can get the quest at the main door, or you can sneak in the side, or you can fight your way in. (and get it from Fantastic)

Fight or sneak your way to the consoles, then through the building.

Repair the generator yourself, or fix the robot to do it, or use an ID card to make him do it.

Choose from the FIVE options of where to send the power...

Decide whether to activate the defence system.

Get NCR fame/infamy... get FoA fame... get Legion a new base... get a nice new orbital weapon.

 

You're right... I can't think of one with so little variation in the quest either.

Of course' date=' you try doing that at first and even a small group of mobs is going to eat you alive. North of Springvale? Group of raiders with at least one rocket launcher, or Super Mutants...

[/quote']

North of Sprinvale is three mole rats, a wild dog, an eyebot and Big Town. Detour to see what's on top of the old highway and you'll get your ass kicked, but it's not like they all arrive in a clump and move twice as fast as you can run, or are so heavily armoured that you can't kill them with a simple hunting rifle. It's challenging sure, but it's not like there's only one road north and that's infested with deathclaws.

Ok, I didn't mean directly north and not any variation to the sides... I could have made that clear.

 

However, there is not just one route north of GoodSprings... is there?

South of Megaton? Mostly nothing until you hit the map edge.

But at least the nothing doesn't have invisible walls all over it.

It does have very visible rock walls' date=' just like FNV... and getting past those (which I admit you can do) leads to some very strange effects... not least of which is savegame corruption if you are stupid enough to wait there, or CTD.

 

I prefer the invisible walls at the top of cliffs, thank you very much.

Meanwhile, Fort Independence, Fairfax ruins, Andale, Overlook Drive-In the Nuka-Cola plant, Red Racer factory, Bailey's crossing (and Operation Anchorage) and a whole pile of loose raiders in ones twos and threes who are eminently killable at low levels. Not so Fairfax ruins, but at least there you can go running back to the outcasts for protection.

4's 5's and 6's as well... been there, seen what it's like. Low levels isn't so easy.

 

And again I notice that you have to pick them off at a distance or get creamed. No distance weapon, big trouble.

 

 

By the way... Plasma pistol and 40 in energy weapons and I can kill a Deathclaw north of Sloan before it reaches me. Since Chet has a GRA one for a nice cheap price, I'm guessing you shouldn't have a problem going that way now? (or head to Primm, find Lucky, head north and shoot the fuck out of them... same thing really)

Head east? Fire ants' date=' raiders and Super Mutants. Head west? Nice and empty... until you walk into Evergreen Mills.

[/quote']

Super Duper Mart, which is excellent sport at low levels, Faragut metro, more raiders to practice on, maybe let the soften up the muties on the other side. Granny Sparkles and a clear run down to the Pentagon. Let the BoS kill the muties and you get a free hunting rifle and a clear run to where you can swim for rivet city. There's Loads to do. Just don't wander into Bethseda Ruins by mistake.

You admit FO3 funnels you into certain directions... but complain that FNV funnels you into certain directions... I must be mis-understanding what you don't like about FNV, because you seem to be giving FO3 an exemption for doing the same thing.

The thing with FO3 is it gave you some nice and easy almost empty space around V101/Megaton... you get this nice feeling that you can go in any direction... but it dumps some heavy shit around that forces you to take certain routes until you are strong enough to take on the shit it's dumped around.

As opposed to FO:NV which has far' date=' far heavier shit dumped all around you, plus barriers to stop you walking around said heavy, heavy shit it to get where you want to go. Which is pretty much my main complaint with NV.[/quote']

You've been given multiple ways to get around that shit... some of which is nowhere near as heavy as you make it out to be. (Nipton overpass is much worse with the radscorpions than Scorpion Gultch is with the Bark Scorpions... and the overpass is piss-easy)

 

So, your complaint is it won't let you get around the heavy shit... despite it letting you get around the heavy shit.

 

Yes... I can see what's happening here.

Which sounds almost like what DocClox is saying about what he feels NV makes him do.

Except that FO3 with all its lamentable linearity and lack for freedom doesn't really care if you walk around Fort Banister and avoid going toe-to-toe with the massed might of Talon Company. While NV has so many magnificent freedoms that it closes off any path that might let you dodge the monsters and forces you to play tag with the cazadores.

Yep... you're now ignoring the facts and just arguing for the sake of it. Or maybe you're trying to be sarcastic... not doing a good job if you are' date=' to be honest.

Oh' date=' and another route to take in NV... north to Sloan, head to Hidden Valley, schlep through the Centaur/radiation area north of Scorpion Gultch, chat to Neil, then head down the side of the cliff back to the main road avoiding almost all of the Deathclaws.

[/quote']

Without 15 levels and an anti-material rifle, avoiding almost all the deathclaws in NV pretty much the same as getting eaten by almost none of them.

And again, you can do it with a simple plasma pistol. Hell, the route I suggested will have you get close to ONE deathclaw... just one! And since you CAN kill ONE deathclaw with a fucking plasma pistol, you're talking bollocks.

One last thing: Just to reiterate: I'm not saying FO:NV is a bad game. Quite the reverse. It's just that I don't think FO3 deserves one tenth of the rubbishing it gets on these forums.

The story is linear... any choices in quests are almost non-choices with little to no effect on the rest of the world, or the player... the world itself uses heavy shit and rock walls to channel you to certain areas... there are places where you CANNOT avoid all the heavy crap the devs put in... most of the big fights in the game are just you sniping from a distance, or having a mass army backing you up and doing all the work.

 

Compared to FNV, FO3 is a frikking movie... and the only way to not suffer that is to ignore the very thing the whole game is about!

And while I'll agree that, depending on personal taste, some people might find NB more enjoyable, I don't think it's stands so clearly head and shoulders above FO3 as is often suggested.

Unfortunately, it does. So many times FO3 will tell a single story with only tiny variations that make no difference most of the time... and to try to say it's even close to FNV with it's story that can be told many different ways with massive changes depending on what you do is just insanity.

 

Yes, FO3 is a good game... but once it gets compared to FNV, a game that shows all the myriad shortcomings of FO3, it's gonna get rubbished. It's a fact of life.

[Guest Loogie]

NV uses powerful enemies and invisible walls to make you take certain paths. Bethesda uses metro tunnels, which distract you from the fact it's funneling you with mindless shooting as you go through bland corridor after bland corridor.

[hinugundam]

or you could choose to

4:Go through the Centaur infested toxic dump and cross to the Primm Pass

OK' date=' I was being lazy. I tended to lump getting eaten by a centaur in same category as being eaten by deathclaw.

[/quote']

 

Its very easy to kill the centaurs and go past it.

Centaurs are terrifyingly weak.

If you can't, it means you never even tried.

 

5: go from south of Nipton through the southern part then go north

(The Path I prefer)

Me too. That's option one. Go allllll the way down the map just in order to go alllll the way back up again.

So going down for 30 second is a waste of time

while going through the long' date=' hard to navigate metro tunnels in FO3 is not.

 

6: Go through hidden valley then Scorpion Clutch

(Completely doable if you acquired needed supply and the combat armor' date=' but I don't like this path to be honest.)

[/quote']

Getting eaten by a radscorpion. Of if you want to grind until you have the levels and kit to survive, file it under piddling around in goodsprings.

So you can't even fight small bark scorpion with their tiny damage? Seriously?

Even after I told you you can get a combat armor?

 

7: Go West through the way Benny came and avoid some cavadors

Getting eaten by Cazadores.

 

There's 1 Cazadore to go pass' date=' 2 if you get stupid and go pull more on this entire path, if you can't even kill 1 Cazadore yourself when prepared, then you are lazy and stupid.

Oh, and you DO know Victor will show up and help you desperate situations, right?

 

8: Go directly through Sloan (Like a Boss!) using mines and stealth

Eaten by deathclaws (like a boss).

 

My friend and I both made it pass here' date=' with lots of preparation of course.

Its difficult but completelly doable, just because you can't do it yourself is doesn't mean its not possible.

 

9: Or you could finish the Powder Ganger quest chain' date=' gain some levels then attempt the above.

[/quote']

Piddling around in Goodsprings.

 

NCRCF is FAR FAR away from Goodspring

if going to NCRCF is piddling around Goodspring

I would say doing Aerfu is piddling around Megaton as well.

Hell, lots of the FO3 quests can quality as piddling around Megaton if you use THAT range.

 

It's not that there's no options in New Vegas

But simply because the game gave you the easiest way out so you never explored any other available options.

I explored them all. Made most of them work' date=' too. But it's not a lot of fun to my way of thinking. Least not compared to FO3.

[/quote']

 

Yet you couldn't do most of the above

Make me wonder how much effort you actually putted in them.

Just because you LIKE a game more doesn't mean you have to twist facts to support it.

 

Well' date=' the easiest approach for the mutie with heavy weapon is to go around. You can veer right and cross the next bridge down. You'll get sniped at by raiders, but they're too far away to be more than a nuisance, and you need to stay low sneaking past the mutie infested church, but it's a lot easier than dodging radscorpions in the pass.

 

Or you can go the other way. Head to Arefu, watch out for the two raiders playing baseball, stay well south of Kealyn's Bed and Breakfast, and cross the river where it runs dry one the far side of the bridge. Easy.

[/quote']

 

Yes, and get caught by other strong enemies while wastes lots of time going other way around.

So its ok that it happens in FO3 but not in FONV, right?

 

Personally' date=' I don't see the difference.

[/quote']

So try the same approach in NV. Cazadores in the pass? You can veer left and run into the invisible wall that's on top of all the damn mountains because the devs didn't want you walking around their monsters, or you can veer to the right and run into the other invisible wall on top of the other mountain. Or you can carry on trying to edge past them, and get dropped into their midst when the ledge you've been inching along for the last ten minutes suddenly stops being supportive.

 

That's the difference to my mind.

 

1:NV actually have the same invisible walls as its terrain gives more obvious blocks, while in FO3 I keep getting blocked by debris that seemly passable.

2:the fact you can stand on TOP of them means you could get a clear shot on them and kill them with ease. Which is a actual improvement over FO3.

 

I am saying you are ignoring the same flaws in FO3 while using a magnifying glass on FONV at the same time.

[iron_jack]

All this talk of getting eaten makes me wish we had actual player-getting-eaten-after-death animations.

[hinugundam]

All this talk of getting eaten makes me wish we had actual player-getting-eaten-after-death animations.

 

There's no decent getting eaten effect in the first place

just break some legs and blow up.. not much to watch.

[DocClox]

NV uses powerful enemies and invisible walls to make you take certain paths. Bethesda uses metro tunnels' date=' which distract you from the fact it's funneling you with mindless shooting as you go through bland corridor after bland corridor.

[/quote']

 

It's a valid point. The thing is, I don't find tunnels nearly so restrictive in dungeons as I do on mountain tops.

 

That probably sounds like a cheap shot, but it's not. It's a matter of immersion. If I'm in a tunnel and I see three ghoul reavers ahead, my first instinct is not to say "I'll just walk through this wall and connect up with the tunnel further on down.

 

By contrast, if I'm in the wilderness and I see a likely looking ledge leading up to a low hilltop, I'm apt to think "I could sneak round over that ridge and get the drop on the bastards". And in FO3 that works more often than not. In NV it generally doesn't because there's a barrier keeping me from the top.

 

So it's not the actual channelling I object to, as such, but the context of it. I find it beaks immersion.

 

There's also the matter of how difficult the enemies are in any given direction. The encounters if you deviate from the main path seem disproportionately difficult. Punitively so, in fact. Not that's that is entirely a bad thing. it makes for a more realistic game world, and it's certainly a lot closer to Fallout Lore. But I'd question if it makes for a more enjoyable game world if you see the distinction.

 

 

 

I think' date=' in all fairness, that had you read my entire comment, you would have noticed that I was talking about the linear way FO3 quests were.

[/quote']

 

I think in all fairness, I did read your entire comment, and I understood it perfectly. I also said as much in my last post.

 

That said, I did lose sight of the context when replying to loogie, and for that I apologise. I didn't intend to misrepresent your opinion, and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

 

1:NV actually have the same invisible walls as its terrain gives more obvious blocks' date=' while in FO3 I keep getting blocked by debris that seemly passable.

[/quote']

 

Because, like, FO3's use of invisible walls in one context totally justifies NV's use of them in a totally different context? And so FO3's use of debris to delimit cell boundaries means that it really is possible to walk directly from Goodsprings to the Great Khans at level one without getting killed?

 

Cool. Post it on YouTube dude. I'm not sure I follow your logic, but I'll be impressed to see it.

 

[Tregarin]

By contrast' date=' if I'm in the wilderness and I see a likely looking ledge leading up to a low hilltop, I'm apt to think "I could sneak round over that ridge and get the drop on the bastards". And in FO3 that works more often than not. In NV it generally doesn't because there's a barrier keeping me from the top.[/quote']

Usually the barrier is impassable rocks... I will say it is rare that it's simply an invisible wall, and you will almost always find those in places where you need to stop going in that direction because you are going to break the game if you don't!

 

Like the way you can get into the Citadel at level 1 in FO3 without doing any of the main quest line... have you seen the video of that? You can do that with Vegas as well, and it is not a pretty sight.

 

Put simply, the invisible walls are almost always to stop you causing problems, with it very rarely being used to channel you... and even then there are ways around the bloody things!

So it's not the actual channelling I object to, as such, but the context of it. I find it beaks immersion.

Same way FO3 does it... and yes, FO3 does have invisible walls. Again, why does FO3 get a pass while FNV gets attacked?

There's also the matter of how difficult the enemies are in any given direction. The encounters if you deviate from the main path seem disproportionately difficult. Punitively so, in fact. Not that's that is entirely a bad thing. it makes for a more realistic game world, and it's certainly a lot closer to Fallout Lore. But I'd question if it makes for a more enjoyable game world if you see the distinction.

On two of the routes, yes... yet the others, as has been pointed out to you several times, are almost piss easy.

 

You can ignore that all you like, but it doesn't mean it goes away.

I think' date=' in all fairness, that had you read my entire comment, you would have noticed that I was talking about the linear way FO3 quests were.

[/quote']

I think in all fairness, I did read your entire comment, and I understood it perfectly. I also said as much in my last post.

 

That said, I did lose sight of the context when replying to loogie, and for that I apologise. I didn't intend to misrepresent your opinion, and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

You managed to lose sight of the context while replying to the very post I made... so you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe you understood it perfectly at the time.

 

On the other hand, if you really did understand it perfectly... why the fuck did you start spouting off about how non-linear FO3 quests are because you can go running in any direction?? That wasn't what I was talking about, and you claim that you understood that... so WTF made you bring up something unrelated as a response??

1:NV actually have the same invisible walls as its terrain gives more obvious blocks' date=' while in FO3 I keep getting blocked by debris that seemly passable.

[/quote']

Because, like, FO3's use of invisible walls in one context totally justifies NV's use of them in a totally different context?

Same context... not that you'll admit that, since you seem to have a hard-on for FO3 and are determined to ignore anything that shows you are moaning about FNV doing something in the same way that FO3 does it.

And so FO3's use of debris to delimit cell boundaries means that it really is possible to walk directly from Goodsprings to the Great Khans at level one without getting killed?

 

Cool. Post it on YouTube dude. I'm not sure I follow your logic, but I'll be impressed to see it.

You don't follow his logic... that is quite obvious.

 

However... if you like being silly about this, perhaps you would agree it is possible to walk directly from V101 to Evergreen Mills Bazaar at level 1 without getting killed?

 

I mean, your argument has always been that you can take an indirect route around various things in FO3 at low levels while admitting the direct route is apt to get you killed... but the fact that FNV does the same thing is just unacceptable.

 

 

You're using Special Pleading here... along with Strawman and Red Herring, and I find it amusing. It's not that amusing... but it is amusing.

[DocClox]

You managed to lose sight of the context while replying to the very post I made... so you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe you understood it perfectly at the time.

 

Look' date=' I don't particularly want a row with you. I've bent over backwards so far in this discussion to try and be fair to you, a courtesy that hasn't always been reciprocated.

 

The one case where I was unfair, I've just apologised for. But hey, if you really want to tell me go take my apology and shove it where the sun don't shine, you go right ahead. We can do business on that basis, too.

 

On the other hand, if you really did understand it perfectly... why the fuck did you start spouting off about how non-linear FO3 quests are because you can go running in any direction?? That wasn't what I was talking about, and you claim that you understood that... so WTF made you bring up something unrelated as a response??

 

Because I wanted to make the point that viewed from a different perspective NV could be considered as more linear than FO3.

 

For pete's sake, all I'm saying at the end of the day is "New Vegas is a good game, but there a few things they do that were done b better in Fallout 3". Is that really such a challenging concept?

 

By contrast' date=' if I'm in the wilderness and I see a likely looking ledge leading up to a low hilltop, I'm apt to think "I could sneak round over that ridge and get the drop on the bastards". And in FO3 that works more often than not. In NV it generally doesn't because there's a barrier keeping me from the top.[/quote']

Usually the barrier is impassable rocks... I will say it is rare that it's simply an invisible wall, and you will almost always find those in places where you need to stop going in that direction because you are going to break the game if you don't!

 

You know, one of my abiding pleasures in Bethseda games generally is mountaineering. That probably sounds weird, but it's true nonetheless. I like finding ways over the mountain ranges in Morrowind, I enjoy finding hidden routes up to the Citadels on the plane of Oblivion, and I enjoy climbing rocks in Fallout 3. I know what's an impassable rock and what isn't.

 

I've been the length of that central range in New Vegas, and if it doesn't have a map marker saying "pass" you can't cross there. There are places where you can stand on top of the damn mountain and still can't cross because the devs were sloppy about where they put their wall. Or you can use tcl to pass the wall, then turn clipping back on and find yourself trapped on top of the mountain because the same wall won't even let you jump off.

 

So no, it's not just impassible rocks and it's not just to stop you breaking the game. But don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself.

 

Again' date=' why does FO3 get a pass while FNV gets attacked?

[/quote']

 

Attacked? I've said time and again that NV is a good game. Are yo really suggesting that the game is without any flaws at all?

 

But to answer your question: at the start of the game NV is all about getting to vegas. That's where all the good stuff is, that's where the interesting quests are, that's where the levelled lists start to actually reflect your level to some extent. They've given one very easy and very tedious route to get there, and half a dozen punitively hard ones, with all other routes being closed off, by fair means or foul.

 

Fallout Three has dozens of interesting places to go, you're not generally restricted in how you get to them, and when you are so restricted (as in the DC sewers) it is very rare for the encounters to be significantly more difficult than they are elsewhere.

 

As a result, I personally find a greater sense of freedom in Fallout 3 than I do in New Vegas. I concede that a lot of that is probably down to my playing style, and I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Nevertheless, for this and other reasons, I find I enjoy FO3 more than NV.

 

For my next trick, I will viciously and senselessly attack Blue Smarties, by explaining how I always used to prefer the red ones. Jeez...

 

 

[Tregarin]

You managed to lose sight of the context while replying to the very post I made... so you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe you understood it perfectly at the time.

Look' date=' I don't particularly want a row with you. I've bent over backwards so far in this discussion to try and be fair to you, a courtesy that hasn't always been reciprocated.

 

The one case where I was unfair, I've just apologised for. But hey, if you really want to tell me go take my apology and shove it where the sun don't shine, you go right ahead. We can do business on that basis, too.[/quote']

I tell you what... if you can stop ignoring what people say and keep claiming stuff that have been shown false, then maybe I'll accept that you were simply mistaken. Until you do that, you are giving the impression that you are deliberately making shit up about things.

 

And you know what? Until you stop fucking about like that, any apology is worthless... and it's certainly not you trying to be fair.

On the other hand' date=' if you really did understand it perfectly... why the fuck did you start spouting off about how non-linear FO3 quests are because you can go running in any direction?? That wasn't what I was talking about, and you claim that you understood that... so WTF made you bring up something unrelated as a response??

[/quote']

Because I wanted to make the point that viewed from a different perspective NV could be considered as more linear than FO3.

 

For pete's sake, all I'm saying at the end of the day is "New Vegas is a good game, but there a few things they do that were done b better in Fallout 3". Is that really such a challenging concept?

So, you changed the subject away from "FO3 quests are seriously linear and spouted about how you can run all over in FO3 as a way of responding to the fact that FO3 quests are insanely linear...

 

You will have to excuse me on this, because I cannot for the life of me see how the fuck what you said in any way is equivalent to the god-damned quests, the whole reason for the fucking game, being so damned-well linear! Explain how it relates, because right now all I can see is that you think a small part of the game (which is exploring) completely changes the hideous lack of any meaningful choice in the main part of the game... which is why FO3 is getting a trashing. It is, by far, the worst of the FO games... and if the only defence you have is "well, you can go all over the place early on" then you have no defence of the game.

 

And you know what? You CAN'T go all over the place straight off... there are so many areas you need to avoid/skirt/go the other direction, but that's something you are using as a bad point for FNV but lauding in FO3. Can you explain why you do that, and still claim you're not attacking FNV??

By contrast' date=' if I'm in the wilderness and I see a likely looking ledge leading up to a low hilltop, I'm apt to think "I could sneak round over that ridge and get the drop on the bastards". And in FO3 that works more often than not. In NV it generally doesn't because there's a barrier keeping me from the top.[/quote']

Usually the barrier is impassable rocks... I will say it is rare that it's simply an invisible wall, and you will almost always find those in places where you need to stop going in that direction because you are going to break the game if you don't!

You know, one of my abiding pleasures in Bethseda games generally is mountaineering. That probably sounds weird, but it's true nonetheless. I like finding ways over the mountain ranges in Morrowind, I enjoy finding hidden routes up to the Citadels on the plane of Oblivion, and I enjoy climbing rocks in Fallout 3. I know what's an impassable rock and what isn't.

 

I've been the length of that central range in New Vegas, and if it doesn't have a map marker saying "pass" you can't cross there. There are places where you can stand on top of the damn mountain and still can't cross because the devs were sloppy about where they put their wall. Or you can use tcl to pass the wall, then turn clipping back on and find yourself trapped on top of the mountain because the same wall won't even let you jump off.

 

So no, it's not just impassible rocks and it's not just to stop you breaking the game. But don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself.

I have done... and I've found a lot of ways through that mountain range (which it's supposed to be... you do know it's based on what is there in real life, don't you? It wasn't just plonked there for shits and giggles... it is there in real life!) that don't involve the insanely difficult mobs that you keep claiming are everywhere.

 

But wait... now you seem to be saying that it's a sodding great mountain range with a few paths through that is the problem... which is just how it should be, because anything else is frankly unbelievable! And somehow being realistic like that is bad?? Somehow that breaks your immersion??

 

Something else to think about... you get the same damned problem in Oblivion... in the (almost) mountainous areas of FO3, you get the same damned problem... I'm willing to bet you get the same problem in Morrowind. Yet it's somehow bad in FNV only??? I really hope you can explain that inconsistency...

Again' date=' why does FO3 get a pass while FNV gets attacked?

[/quote']

Attacked? I've said time and again that NV is a good game. Are yo really suggesting that the game is without any flaws at all?

No, I'm not... stop trying to twist my words.

But to answer your question: at the start of the game NV is all about getting to vegas.

No, it isn't...

That's where all the good stuff is, that's where the interesting quests are, that's where the levelled lists start to actually reflect your level to some extent.

Nope... got there at very early levels, waited until the mid 20's before... the levelled lists don't change.

 

Out in the open desert? That reflects it a lot.

They've given one very easy and very tedious route to get there, and half a dozen punitively hard ones, with all other routes being closed off, by fair means or foul.

They've given one easy and story-led route, a half dozen fairly easy ones, and a couple of ruddy difficult ones that are not impossible but are one hell of a challenge.

 

You've had that pointed out to you several times now... try that bending over backwards to be fair thing and stop claiming something that is plainly wrong.

Fallout Three has dozens of interesting places to go, you're not generally restricted in how you get to them, and when you are so restricted (as in the DC sewers) it is very rare for the encounters to be significantly more difficult than they are elsewhere.

Same with FNV... what is your point?

As a result, I personally find a greater sense of freedom in Fallout 3 than I do in New Vegas. I concede that a lot of that is probably down to my playing style, and I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Nevertheless, for this and other reasons, I find I enjoy FO3 more than NV.

Sandbox freedom... with that Sandbox not being as free as you make out, since you still get forced to avoid areas/routes or to take very specific routes.

 

Something you either missed, or deliberately ignored...

your argument has always been that you can take an indirect route around various things in FO3 at low levels while admitting the direct route is apt to get you killed... but the fact that FNV does the same thing is just unacceptable.

Think about it...

For my next trick, I will viciously and senselessly attack Blue Smarties, by explaining how I always used to prefer the red ones. Jeez...

If you're going to find flaws in the blue smarties while saying that the red ones are better for you because of those very same flaws... well, you'll be portraying yourself to be just as daft as you did above.

 

 

 

If you are interested, you've used 5 logical fallacies now. You might have guessed by now that I have little patience for people who use such fallacies...

[Guest Loogie]

NV uses powerful enemies and invisible walls to make you take certain paths. Bethesda uses metro tunnels' date=' which distract you from the fact it's funneling you with mindless shooting as you go through bland corridor after bland corridor.

[/quote']

 

It's a valid point. The thing is, I don't find tunnels nearly so restrictive in dungeons as I do on mountain tops.

 

That probably sounds like a cheap shot, but it's not. It's a matter of immersion. If I'm in a tunnel and I see three ghoul reavers ahead, my first instinct is not to say "I'll just walk through this wall and connect up with the tunnel further on down.

 

By contrast, if I'm in the wilderness and I see a likely looking ledge leading up to a low hilltop, I'm apt to think "I could sneak round over that ridge and get the drop on the bastards". And in FO3 that works more often than not. In NV it generally doesn't because there's a barrier keeping me from the top.

 

So it's not the actual channelling I object to, as such, but the context of it. I find it beaks immersion.

 

I find it more immersive to find a bad direction in the wilderness, and have the option of taking an entirely different route, than being funneled into metro tunnel after metro tunnel because the game designers don't know hot to lay out a city without walls.

 

 

[DocClox]

So I guess I'm not getting a Christmas card from you this year, huh treg?

 

And you know what? Until you stop fucking about like that' date=' any apology is worthless... and it's certainly not you trying to be fair.

[/quote']

 

Well, so far I've failed to accuse you of dishonesty, refrained from deliberate insults, and tried not to take the discussion personally. It's a pity you can't say the same really.

 

But wait! Let me guess. Since it is clearly beyond comprehension that anyone should have a dissenting opinion regarding your favourite computer game, the only possible explanation is that I am deliberately spreading lies, right? Probably because I'm just plain evil, and enjoy the anguish and suffering I can inflict by saying "you know, it's just possible that New Vegas might not be better than Fallout Three in every conceivable way". So it isn't really being nasty and mean spirited when you do it, because you fight on side of righteousness, am I right?

 

Alternatively, I might just have a different opinion of the game and have wanted to talk about the differences between the two in a polite and non-confrontational manner. But no, that's crazy talk. It's far, far more likely that I'm deliberately "making shit up" for no better purpose than to make you feel bad.

 

So, anyway, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go an do something constructive rather than hang around here and try and out-nasty you. I believe I've made my point with sufficient clarity you are probably the only person on the planet who does not now understand it. I can't see any profit in repeating myself further.

 

What I suggest you do, is get over yourself. Seriously.

 

[hinugundam]

Well' date=' so far I've failed to accuse you of dishonesty, refrained from deliberate insults, and tried not to take the discussion personally. It's a pity you can't say the same really.

 

But wait! Let me guess. Since it is clearly beyond comprehension that anyone should have a dissenting opinion regarding your favourite computer game, the only possible explanation is that I am deliberately spreading lies, right? Probably because I'm just plain evil, and enjoy the anguish and suffering I can inflict by saying "you know, it's just possible that New Vegas might not be better than Fallout Three in every conceivable way". So it isn't really being nasty and mean spirited when you do it, because you fight on side of righteousness, am I right?

 

So, anyway, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go an do something constructive rather than hang around here and try and out-nasty you. I believe I've made my point with sufficient clarity you are probably the only person on the planet who does not now understand it. I can't see any profit in repeating myself further.

 

What I suggest you do, is get over yourself. Seriously.

[/quote']

 

So here comes the usual "I lost the argument so I will insult your personality then run" part of the argument.

Reminds me of all the trolls I faced over the years.

 

YOU DID MAKE THINGS UP. We have both given you TONS of alternative and proofs of why FONV is at least the same, if not more free than FO3.

And what did you do?

Ignore the facts we gave, insult Tregarin because he don't agree with what you say.

 

Your so called "different opinion" is what we have being arguing about.

We are using hard facts to argue on WHY your opinion is false.

And you want to dismiss it by saying "You are attacking me because my opinion is different than yours."

Twisting both the cause and the works we gave you.

Its like saying "The sun raise from the west because I say so and you can't accuse me of being wrong because you have to take different opinion."

 

None of us have made a comment on you personally in the entire tread, and WHAT DID YOU JUST DO IN THIS POST?

Tregarin was making a point to ask you "Why do value FONV lower when FO3 and FONV used the same technique?"

And you twist his words into saying he can't take a insult on FONV?

Seriously? Who is the person who can't take a insult on his favorite game here?

 

You are the one who made the insult on our intelligence in the first place, you are the one who tries to drag people into a mud fight with you. now you tries to pretend you are the better man and turn tail and run while leaving more insults behind.

Sir, do you know SHAME?

[DocClox]

Tregarin was making a point to ask you "Why do value FONV lower when FO3 and FONV used the same technique?"

The point I took issue with was when he accused me of intellectual dishonesty and threw my apology back in my face saying it was worthless.

 

Don't worry, I have no plans to apologise to you.

 

[Guest Loogie]

We're talking about videogames. All art is a matter of taste; even though I don't particularly like Fallout 3, I'm not going to personally insult someone who does when they're trying to be civil.

 

Fallacious arguments are part of internet discussions. While I could point out several on both sides of the argument, I won't. What I will point out is both sides are resorting to making sweeping general character accusations about each other as civility breaks down about funneling techniques inside a videogame, which is over the top regardless how good those games may be.

 

I'm not going to demand everyone hug and apologize - we're adults and should be able to analyze our own behavior and take appropriate actions. If you all want to continue the discussion the thread was started for - sex mods that are only for Fallout 3 - feel free, but extreme personal insults over flavor of invisible walls from here on out will start getting warnings issued.

 

If you all really feel the need to argue, take it to PMs.

[hinugundam]

The point I took issue with was when he accused me of intellectual dishonesty and threw my apology back in my face saying it was worthless.

 

Don't worry' date=' I have no plans to apologise to you.

 

[/quote']

 

And you make it sounds like your apologize even means something.

 

You are just using your apologize as a excuse to run away because you lost and you can't take it.

Even a moron should see it by now.

How many post have it being? and you STILL won't admit there's more than 1 way to go. What you do instead? insults and more insults.

Decency? honesty? I don't see any either.

[Tregarin]

Tregarin was making a point to ask you "Why do value FONV lower when FO3 and FONV used the same technique?"

The point I took issue with was when he accused me of intellectual dishonesty and threw my apology back in my face saying it was worthless.

Given you still claim the easy ways you've been shown don't exist, you've proven that you are not being intellectually honest.

 

I've also been pointing out your logical fallacies that your argument relies upon... someone who is intellectually honest wouldn't keep using those fallacies.

 

Even better, I asked you why you give FO3 a pass for doing the exact same thing FNV does, and your only response was to ignore the question and keep banging on about how those easy ways you got shown didn't exist! Proving again that you are not intellectually honest in this regard.

 

 

As for why your apology is worthless... you claimed you lost the context replying to Loogie. You didn't! You lost it replying to the very post I made... and to claim that you fully understood what I was saying when you have so thoroughly lost the context and any meaning in the post shows that you DIDN'T understand it in the first place...

 

Saying "I understood it but didn't mean to twist it" is worthless when your post shows that you didn't understand it at the time... and if you DID understand it, then the twisting you gave it must have been down to dishonesty or outright stupidity.

 

 

Oh, and for anyone even remotely interested... you can get to Vegas at level 1 without firing a shot or drawing a weapon in just 10 minutes.

Ignore the Tutorial, run to Primm, head east through the pass, hug the north wall as you drop down to avoid the Jackals, run past Ranger Station Charlie up to Novac, keep on going on the I95 (or I93, whichever one it is that heads north of Novac) on the east of McCarran, head west when level with Crimson Caravan... say hello to Freeside.

 

10 minutes, not a shot fired or a weapon drawn, no hits taken, no fights run away from... and I took my bloody time.

 

Next time anyone ever tries claiming you MUST take a specific route because all other routes are too sodding difficult, they can go fuck themselves because they are 100% wrong... and an honest person (yes, that would be you DocClox) would admit it and stop being such a fucking arse about it.

[hinugundam]

Oh' date=' and for anyone even remotely interested... you can get to Vegas at level 1 without firing a shot or drawing a weapon in just 10 minutes.

Ignore the Tutorial, run to Primm, head east through the pass, hug the north wall as you drop down to avoid the Jackals, run past Ranger Station Charlie up to Novac, keep on going on the I95 (or I93, whichever one it is that heads north of Novac) on the east of McCarran, head west when level with Crimson Caravan... say hello to Freeside.

[/quote']

 

Actually Its Highway 95, which intersects with Highway 93 at 188 Trade post. The only road with I is I-15 and that's the one goes through Primm.

 

While I was checking, it seems Grub n' Gulp rest stop is reflecting on a real-life rest stop there too.

[Tregarin]

Oh' date=' and for anyone even remotely interested... you can get to Vegas at level 1 without firing a shot or drawing a weapon in just 10 minutes.

Ignore the Tutorial, run to Primm, head east through the pass, hug the north wall as you drop down to avoid the Jackals, run past Ranger Station Charlie up to Novac, keep on going on the I95 (or I93, whichever one it is that heads north of Novac) on the east of McCarran, head west when level with Crimson Caravan... say hello to Freeside.

[/quote']

Actually Its Highway 95, which intersects with Highway 93 at 188 Trade post. The only road with I is I-15 and that's the one goes through Primm.

 

While I was checking, it seems Grub n' Gulp rest stop is reflecting on a real-life rest stop there too.

Ah... oh well, I can't be right about everything.

 

:edit: You know the irony of all this? I love FO3 for different reasons to why I love FNV... being told that I'm basically being a fanboy (in a passive-aggressive way, no less) for FNV is just comical.

[DocClox]

What I will point out is both sides are resorting to making sweeping general character accusations about each other as civility breaks down about funneling techniques inside a videogame' date=' which is over the top regardless how good those games may be.

[/quote']

 

"Please sir, he started it..."

 

Sorry. I'll be good

 

If you all really feel the need to argue' date=' take it to PMs.

[/quote']

 

Nope, I'm done.

[hinugundam]

Ah... oh well' date=' I can't be right about everything.

 

:edit: You know the irony of all this? I love FO3 for different reasons to why I love FNV... being told that I'm basically being a fanboy (in a passive-aggressive way, no less) for FNV is just comical.

[/quote']

 

Well, I like FO3 for its different atmosphere.

Capital Wasteland is more a cooler, city like ruin.

While Mojave is a desert that's hidden with life.

 

Capital Wasteland is also more deserted. more lonely.

There are very little communities and vendors are hard to come by.

 

While in Mojave you can count on someone coming to back you up a lot, hell, you can call in reinforcement with NCR radio.

You can always find a authority nearby, its too civilized to feel dangerous.

 

By environment and background I'd say they stay even at least, but FONV just have a better system.

[Tregarin]

Ah... oh well' date=' I can't be right about everything.

 

:edit: You know the irony of all this? I love FO3 for different reasons to why I love FNV... being told that I'm basically being a fanboy (in a passive-aggressive way, no less) for FNV is just comical.

[/quote']

 

Well, I like FO3 for its different atmosphere.

Capital Wasteland is more a cooler, city like ruin.

While Mojave is a desert that's hidden with life.

 

Capital Wasteland is also more deserted. more lonely.

There are very little communities and vendors are hard to come by.

 

While in Mojave you can count on someone coming to back you up a lot, hell, you can call in reinforcement with NCR radio.

You can always find a authority nearby, its too civilized to feel dangerous.

Exactly... FO3 is very much a "you against the world" game with only a few safe places to rest/recover/change underwear, while there are safe places scattered all over the place in FNV... On the other hand, FNV is very much a "Crap... there's two large groups about to have a war here" game, so there's going to be a lot of areas you can rest/recover/glue that arm back on or it's just going to feel wrong, especially since they've been building up to this war for years.

 

Saying that, if you want it to be dangerous... just go slaughter a load of NCR and Legion. You'll be welcome almost nowhere and chased all over by assassin squads...

By environment and background I'd say they stay even at least, but FONV just have a better system.

Eh, I think FO3 has the edge on environment... it does manage to get across the whole "large city ravaged to shit by nukes" feel, along with areas with radiation scattered here and there... it's more of an adventure exploring FO3, but that's part of the story each game tells. (seriously... if the Enclave and BoS had been building up to a war for a few years there, does anyone think FO3 would have had a remotely similar world to what it does?)

[Guest Loogie]

What I still don't understand why the Enclave and Brotherhood were enemies when they wanted the same damn thing. It especially makes no sense seeing as Autumn is threatening to dad, giving the impression he hates wastelanders, then proceeds to freak out about Eden's plan to release the modified FEV. Not to mention this happens after he magically survives the middle of the game.

 

Either Autumn can be a humanitarian who wants to engage the purifier and not use the FEV, thereby having identical goals to dad and the BoS which should make them all allies OR he can be a jerkoff who forcefully tries to take the purifier while killing innocents with designs to use the FEV on the populace. In the game, he's an asshole who kills civilians, while simultaneously wanting to save the wasteland while warring against them. It does not compute.

 

What would have made sense is if they were all working together and it was revealed Eden and a secret cadre were playing them all for damn fools. Autumn and his men could feel betrayed that Eden is really a computer bent on killing the wasteland, and they could join up with the BoS and deliver the conflict in a way that has actual emotional impact and makes sense. The Outcasts would be a wildcard, interested in the Enclave for their tech.

[Tregarin]

What I still don't understand why the Enclave and Brotherhood were enemies when they wanted the same damn thing. It especially makes no sense seeing as Autumn is threatening to dad' date=' giving the impression he hates wastelanders, then proceeds to freak out about Eden's plan to release the modified FEV. Not to mention this happens after he magically survives the middle of the game.

 

Either Autumn can be a humanitarian who wants to engage the purifier and not use the FEV, thereby having identical goals to dad and the BoS which should make them all allies OR he can be a jerkoff who forcefully tries to take the purifier while killing innocents with designs to use the FEV on the populace. In the game, he's an asshole who kills civilians, while simultaneously wanting to save the wasteland while warring against them. It does not compute.[/quote']

Possibly... just possibly... Autumn wanted control of the Purifier because that would make sure the Enclave was in control, and the "Top Dog"? I mean, it's not like groups with identical goals have had some conflict over who controls a resource before...

 

Hey, it even fits with what the US does today, so it's not that far fetched. (please note, that comment is mostly tongue in cheek...)

What would have made sense is if they were all working together and it was revealed Eden and a secret cadre were playing them all for damn fools. Autumn and his men could feel betrayed that Eden is really a computer bent on killing the wasteland, and they could join up with the BoS and deliver the conflict in a way that has actual emotional impact and makes sense. The Outcasts would be a wildcard, interested in the Enclave for their tech.

So... why didn't Bethesda have you working on the story??

[Guest Loogie]

Because Bethesda has no talent outside of their art department. Hiring me would ruin that integrity.

 

If I gave enough of a fuck, fixing the story would be a good mod, but there's too little gain. As for the Enclave wanting control, all they would need to do is offer help, bring their people in, then have de facto control. More depth could be added to the story with dad being bitter abouthis project being taken over. Dad could also be a good character to crystallize opinion about the players choices; of course, that means the player would need more choices than blowing up Megaton.

 

Which is another thing. The logic for blowing up Megaton is idiotic, but what is even more idiotic is the gameplay affect. You can choose to not blow the city up and keep every vendor ingame, which you really need. Or you can blow it up and deny yourself the vendors in exchange for an explosion. Either way you get a needless house with a robot butler, after being presented with overwhelming evidence that robots are so valuable no one wouldn't hand you one like that as a toy.

[DocClox]

What I still don't understand why the Enclave and Brotherhood were enemies when they wanted the same damn thing. It especially makes no sense seeing as Autumn is threatening to dad' date=' giving the impression he hates wastelanders, then proceeds to freak out about Eden's plan to release the modified FEV. Not to mention this happens after he magically survives the middle of the game.

[/quote']

 

Do they want the same thing, though? On the strategic level, I think we can agree they don't. The BoS are dedicated to preserving technology and preventing its falling into the wrong hands, (whatever hands those might be) while the Enclave regard themselves as the continuance of pre-apocalypse US government and as such are sworn to the end of re-establishing control over the continent.

 

In the short term, it's true they have a common goal in getting the purifier working, but it seems to me they have radically different visions of how the purifier should be used.

 

Eden, we know about. "He" has an agenda for genocide which is clearly incompatible with Lyon's kinder, gentler vision for the BoS. I think we both agree on that point.

 

Autumn though ... I think the Autumn faction in the enclave want the purifier because they have visions of a hydraulic empire - one where the vassal nations have to toe the Enclave line, or risk losing their access to clean water. Of course, for that to work, we'd need the enclave to fundamentally misunderstand how the purifier works. If they see it as a source of pure water then their strategy makes a degree of sense. If they know that the purifier will result in clean water across the capital wasteland then it doesn't.

 

The explanation that fits best is probably that Eden knows how the purifier works, but hasn't shared the information with Autumn. After all, if Autumn knew the purifier was worthless then, given the tension between Autumn and Eden, he'd likely resist committing the troops to capture the facility, and thus derail all hopes of Eden's Final Solution.

 

Autumn, on the other hand, is working to fulfil the traditional Enclave aims by seizing control of the facility which (he believes) will give the Enclave the leverage it needs to re-establish US hegemony on the east coast. It's never going to work, but he doesn't know that, and he's basically upholding his duties as best he knows how. He won't work with the BoS because he wants to use the water supply to compel obedience, while Lyons wants to create a more egalitarian wasteland.