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Form 43/44 and You

bnub345

Entry posted by bnub345 in 1

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Prologue

 

After some recent posts regarding form 43 files and Skyrim SE, I decided to make this blog explaining a little about what the forms mean, what they actually change, and what you need to know about converting them. Note that LE is the legendary version of Skyrim that ran on x32 (Oldrim), SE is the special edition on x64 v1.5.97, and AE is the anniversary edition on x64 v1.6.xx. For the purposes of this discussion, SE and AE are interchangeable. 

 

 

Introduction

 

There is a lot of information floating around about Skyrim form types that is dubious at best. Form 43 is specific to LE and a sign of improper porting, a herald of crashes and save corruption. Form 44 is the future, a sleek and sexy new header type for SE. "It is known", chant the peanut gallery on countless reddit and forum threads. Supposedly, using form 43 files on SE can lead to crashes, save corruption, and general game instability. But not when you launch the game, that would be too easy. It slowly creeps in after dozens of hours of playtime, ruining your save and carefully built up character. Conveniently, this is at a point where it is impossible to point to the plugin header as a specific culprit. Any number of bad mods, bad scripts, lack of stability fixes or save bloat could be the actual problem and no proof of form 43 problems is presented. I'll go over this more later, but there is a very limited number of circumstances where a form 43 file might cause problems.

 

 

What are Forms 43/44?

 

The form, identified in any esp/esm/esl header, specifies what type of record structure the data contained uses. Form 43 is the original version used in Skyrim LE, and Form 44 is the newer version used on SE. Bethesda intentionally made SE with backwards compatibility in mind, meaning it can use both forms. In fact, form 44 is exactly the same as form 43 except for the specific file headers that were changed for SE. 

 

 

What Changed?

 

This reddit post from Mator (creator of Mator Smash) outlines the record changes that occurred between LE and SE development. Fortunately (in this aspect anyway), SE was a lazy port on Beth's part from x32 to x64, and they changed very little of the file structure.

 

New Records in SSE

  • LENS
  • VOLI
  • SPGD (from FO4)

 

These records are irrelevant to file conversion, as they don't exist in form 43. 

 

Changed records in SSE

  • MATO - changed Directional Material Data (L9895-L9929)
  • STAT - changed Direction Material (L12783-L12797)
  • WATR - changed Visual Data (L12920-L13041), added Flow Normals (L13057)
  • WTHR - added volumetric lighting (L13426-L13432), added LENS flare reference (L13442)
  • WEAP - changed Critical Data (L13159-L13183)

 

Changes subrecords in SSE

  • VMAD - added "large references"

 

These are the records that actually matter for file conversion. If a plugin doesn't have any of these file headers, converting it won't change anything because the data is exactly the same on both form 43 and 44 versions. Even with these file headers, I'm not sure exactly how much changes when converting a plugin. I tested this on v4.80 of Nymra's Naked Defeat mod, which contained MATO, STAT, and WEAP headers. The MATO and STAT entries simply had Null References on both form 43 and 44 versions, so nothing changed as far as I can tell. The WEAP entry did have an error on the critical effect line, but it didn't cause any issues in game when I hit NPCs with a critical attack. I'm not sure about the long-term behavior.

 

 

What does this Mean?

 

If a plugin doesn't contain any of these file headers, it doesn't need to be converted. Form 43 does NOT cause problems by itself for Skyrim SE. Many of the files in Bethesda's official content contains form 43 files. If they caused problems, everyone would have these problems all of the time because they would be forced to use form 43 files every time they played a game. In fact, there are more than just form 43 and 44 files, they are supported as low as form 17. And Beth plugins are loaded the exact same way as mod plugins, see the source at the end.

 

 

When should I convert form 43 plugins to form 44?

 

  • If the plugin contains any of the file headers in the section above
  • If the plugin overwrites any of the file headers above from a form 44 master file

 

 

How do I convert form 43 plugins to form 44?

 

Open the plugin in the SE Creation Kit and save it. It's that easy. Make sure you grab the CK Fixes mod. If you don't have this fix, the WEAP critical field will be bugged because Bethesda messed up when they made the converter. Also, you need this mod to load esp plugins as master files. Otherwise, any mod with esp masters will have them stripped when you save it, which WILL break your game. Plus it has a bunch of useful fixes and makes the CK actually load faster than sloth speed, so I recommend it for anyone who ever uses the CK for any reason.

 

 

Conclusion

 

  • Form 43 plugins run perfectly fine on SE without issues
  • You only need to convert to form 44 if the plugin has one of the file headers listed above or it overwrites a form 44 master file with those file headers
  • Convert plugins by saving them in the SE CK, make sure you have CK Fixes installed

 

 

Epilogue

 

Check out this source to learn more from someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

 

Feel free to convert all your plugins to form 44 if you want, it shouldn't break anything if you have CK fixes. It also won't help you or change anything, but arguing with some of these people is like trying to convince a crackpot that their healing crystals don't actually protect them from COVID. 

 

 

12

14 Comments

Recommended Comments

Talesien

Talesien

Posted

Great article, always good to dispel myths and replace them with solid facts, not that the usual suspects are likely to read this. ;)

2
SpyVsPie

SpyVsPie

Posted (edited)

I installed a form 43 plugin on my Samsung smart fridge and then BAM! Three weeks later all my ice cubes melted! ? 

Edited by SpyVsPie
4
yorpers

yorpers

Posted (edited)

This is good information, I've personally already seen that article you used as a source and came to the same conclusions. But you laid out the data much better than I ever could. Hopefully the people shrieking about forms see this and can take in exactly what it means. I have used bugged critical data weapons and haven't experienced any kind of CTD or other issue from them, for hundreds of hours. So that one small bug created from a bad conversion may bug out critical strikes for that weapon, but it seems to be completely benign otherwise.

 

EDIT:

Something else you may find interesting is this list of things that get baked into a save from WAYYYYY back in 2013 by Arthmoor. Say whatever you want about him, but This list seems to be accurate from my own experience. I've personally been looking into what does and doesn't get actually 'saved.'

 

  • Papyrus script properties. These become permanently baked in from the moment the game starts and/or when a new mod with scripts is added. Script properties can only be updated by forcing them to change via an update script, like what the USKP uses for retroactive fixes.
  • Objects pointed to by Papyrus properties. These can never be moved, even with scripted commands. This data is baked in from the moment the game starts and/or a new mod is added. Most attempts will simply fail silently, while others will log an error saying the objects can't be moved.
  • Objects pointed to in forced reference aliases for quests. These are not supposed to become permanently persistent, but more often than not that's exactly what happens.
  • Changes to any vanilla objects made via scripts. Including global variables and any other information. These changes are written as modification records in the save and can only be reversed with another script.
  • Map Marker data. Specifically, if you alter a map marker, remove the name from it, then proceed to play, the map marker will permanently lose this information even after the mod is removed.
  • Positions of havok enabled items in cells you've visited. Even if you move them in the CK and you haven't disturbed them yourself. This may reset itself upon the cell's next cycle, but so far all indications are that it won't.
  • Positions of moveable static objects become permanent after your first encounter with them. Prior to this they will update.
  • Changing ownership on a bed from nobody to a faction does not appear to update, while changing it from nobody to a specific NPC appears to work fine.
  • Several fields on NPCs are known to bake in: Crime Faction, Faction memberships, Inventory items, Morality (AI Data tab), the opposite gender animations flag. These fields appear to only bake in if the NPC actually loads into memory at least once during play.
  • Facegen Data for NPCs. This seems somewhat hit or miss, but more often than not, if you have encountered an NPC while playing, any changes to their facegen data that may be made later will be ignored.
  • Timescale changes. You can make a one-time change to the game's timescale through an ESP, but after that, any changes to timescale must be done either via Papyrus or the console as the change is permanent in the save once made.
Edited by yorpers
2
Pfiffy

Pfiffy

Posted

I'm so sick of this discussion... I had to deal with it right from the day that Sexlab was released for SE.

1
Gukahn

Gukahn

Posted

7 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

I'm so sick of this discussion... I had to deal with it right from the day that Sexlab was released for SE.

You too?

Everytime a mod gets converted and I look at the comments, somewhere some one reports the Form ID.. 

Same goes for the ever beloved Mod Manager Debate... That's why we can't just have nice Things

2
Vyxenne

Vyxenne

Posted (edited)

Thanks for this article- it is detailed and logical, as opposed to either of the extremes- "The world will end" and "Form Type 43/44 has no effect whatsoever in SSE."

 

What I have never seen, however, is a concise answer to this: does it do any harm to resave a Type 43 (or lower) plugin in the CK+CK Fixes

  • Before starting a New Game
  • Mid-playthrough but before launching the game with the Type 43 Plugin installed and the load order re-sorted
  • Mid-playthrough after launching the game with the Type 43 Plugin installed (including load order re-sort) but before saving the game
  • Mid-playthrough after launching and saving the game with the Type 43 Plugin installed and the load order re-sorted

The reason it seems reasonable to ask these questions is that at least some of what we do in creating/porting mods is "just in case, it does no harm" (e.g. esl-ifying SkyUI_SE.esp and/or Racemenu's plugin, both of which are identified as safe to convert to ESL-FEs by SSE Edit and Wrye Bash and or adding breast bones to the previously-unboned (shutUP @Grey Cloud ) breasts of a sexy top for someone who has told you they don't use or want Body Physics in their game); if it's safe and quick to do and even might offer some user benefit, now or down the road, I'm generally a fan of doing it.

 

And before some naysayer calls out the Drama Llama, pointing a bony finger at me and screaming incoherently "You're just grasping at straws, trying to justify all the work and pixel ink you've wasted resaving plugins and talking about resaving plugins and linking people to Arthmoor's articles on resaving plugins for absolutely no discernible benefit bwaaaaAAAAAAAAAha ha ha haaaaa *snort* , I can provide a screenshot of my WB Warnings tab showing the dozens of Type 43s I have in my own personal load order.

 

I generally resave all the converted Oldrim plugins I publish for SE, just to avoid the drama and bony pointers in my Posts tab, but other than that I don't bother. However, if there is some identifiable harm done by resaving Oldrim plugins in CK-SE + CK Helper, I'd like to know about it. Thanks.

Edited by Vyxenne
Grey Cloud

Grey Cloud

Posted

Keep me out of this one. As far as I'm concerned, any problems related to SE are filed under 'self-inflicted wounds'.

I never bothered with SE as the apparently mandatory frontal lobotomy didn't hold much appeal. :classic_ph34r:?

1
Vyxenne

Vyxenne

Posted (edited)

I was only pulling your chain vis-à-vis the "unboned breast" word play.

 

Had I known you had turned into The Grinch while I wasn't looking, I wouldn't have tagged you. Sorry.

Edited by Vyxenne
Grey Cloud

Grey Cloud

Posted

8 hours ago, Vyxenne said:

I was only pulling your chain vis-à-vis the "unboned" word play.

 

Had I known you had turned into The Grinch while I wasn't looking, I wouldn't have tagged you. Sorry.

No problem.

I've had my fillet of Skyrim generally.

bnub345

bnub345

Posted

20 hours ago, Vyxenne said:

What I have never seen, however, is a concise answer to this: does it do any harm to resave a Type 43 (or lower) plugin in the CK+CK Helper

 

This is difficult to answer with 100% certainty because I don't know what the CK actually does when it converts the esp. I guess you can't know unless the code is reverse engineered. Presumably it just updates the the changed entries to the new format and doesn't touch anything else. But as far as it is known, there isn't any risk to resaving. There is a bug if you don't use CK fixes with the weapon critical effect. This is a 4-bit entry on LE, and to convert it to 8 bit on SE the CK adds 4 bits of padding, which is basically just an empty placeholder. The bug causes the padding to be referenced instead of the actual data, leading to an empty entry. But this only causes the effect to be registered as a null entry, it can't actually harm the game in any way.

1
Vyxenne

Vyxenne

Posted

On 8/24/2022 at 5:30 AM, Grey Cloud said:

I've had my fillet of Skyrim generally.

Odd, I can generally detect piscine aromas without prompting... ?

Vyxenne

Vyxenne

Posted

22 hours ago, bnub345 said:

it can't actually harm the game in any way.

Based on the lack of any damning article or blog post that I have seen, I agree, and that was my point- while Arthmoor may have been wrong in his initial assessment (circa 2016, shortly after the launch of SSE) that failure to resave 43 >> 44 could plant harmful seeds in our savegames, at this point I think it's "erring on the side of safety" for us porters and dabblers to resave our shared Oldrim ports and patches (properly, including CK Fixes) simply as a "best practices" measure.

Grey Cloud

Grey Cloud

Posted

As a recent convert to SE I am disappointed (classic British understatement there) as to how flaky SE is compared to LE. In LE I was forever installing and uninstalling mods on my game and very, very, very rarely had any problem with a save refusing to load. With SE after maybe 2 months of building my game, or at least trying to, I have had more borked saves than in five-plus years of LE. I have been converting from Form 43 to Form 44 just to be rid of the warning box in WB.

 

So my question is: are any types of mod where converting to Form 44 is a bad thing?

 

 

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