Grumpf Posted August 24, 2011 Posted August 24, 2011 https://twitter.com/#!/ElderScrolls/status/103844894413557760 Here's a ctrl-c/ctrl-v of my answer in the Nexus: Steam Pro: -------------- X Automatic updates X Can skip physical copy Cons ------- X Need an internet connection, at least once... X Annoying popups X Rapid obsolescence of the game (for how long will it be supported?) X Automatic updates X Can't lend/ Resell X You don't own the game but a possibility to use one install of it on a computer X Modding support is uncertain X Will increase piracy amongst geeks and or boost console sales. Thus fooling even more game industry that the console is the only profitable platform. ------------------------- Like audio and video industry, Bethesda will punish loyal customers and give excuses for pirates... Did I miss something?
Guest Loogie Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Cons ------- X Need an internet connection' date=' at least once...[/quote'] Because nobody has constant internet connectivity these days! X Rapid obsolescence of the game (for how long will it be supported?) Forever. In the unlikely event Steam ever does shut down, I'm sure they'll rig it up so everything bought on it still works. X Can't lend/ Resell PC games haven't been resellable for the past decade. Lending isn't a big deal, given ease of piracy if someone wants to try the title out. X You don't own the game but a possibility to use one install of it on a computer False. You own the game; the product is yours. Especially true if you bought a physical copy in a store. You can install Steam games to any computer you have Steam installed on. X Modding support is uncertain Has nothing to do with Steam and everything to do with Bethesda making their games for consoles instead of PCs. X Will increase piracy amongst geeks and or boost console sales. Thus fooling even more game industry that the console is the only profitable platform. Steam DRM is actually mild. Steam doesn't increase piracy; things like the DRM scheme on the first shipment of Spore do. Plus, being able to install the game on any PC running Steam should further decentivize piracy.
leddis3 Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Has nothing to do with Steam and everything to do with Bethesda making their games for consoles instead of PCs. That has little consequence as Bethesda have already said Skyrim will get as much modding support as any other of their games. They already confirmed the CS will be ready when the game launches, also New Vegas' script extender works perfectly well with Steam so that isn't an issue either.
Jexsam Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Cons ------- X Need an internet connection' date=' at least once...[/quote'] Because nobody has constant internet connectivity these days! But some people have bandwitdh caps and would rather not waste precious bandwidth on updates whenever the hell Steam wants to put them in. And no, until they fix Offline mode, they can't just turn it off, because they have to log in long enough to go into Offline mode. And besides. We're talking about a single-player game here. There is no reason you should ever have to be online to play a single player game X Rapid obsolescence of the game (for how long will it be supported?) Forever. In the unlikely event Steam ever does shut down, I'm sure they'll rig it up so everything bought on it still works. Most likely. So yeah, this point is kinda silly. X Can't lend/ Resell PC games haven't been resellable for the past decade. Lending isn't a big deal, given ease of piracy if someone wants to try the title out. And what about people who'd rather not pirate? Not everybody wants to run the risk of jail time, slim though the odds of being caught may be. Hell, some people are downright morally opposed to it. X You don't own the game but a possibility to use one install of it on a computer False. You own the game; the product is yours. Especially true if you bought a physical copy in a store. You can install Steam games to any computer you have Steam installed on. Indeed, you own the game, and can in fact slap it onto any machine with Steam installed on it. You just have to be logged into your account to play them. It's actually a rather brilliant thing, I think, and very convenient. The best part of Steam, IMO. X Modding support is uncertain Has nothing to do with Steam and everything to do with Bethesda making their games for consoles instead of PCs. I don't know enough about modding Steam-purchased games to comment, though when I get Skyrim, I suppose I'll find out. X Will increase piracy amongst geeks and or boost console sales. Thus fooling even more game industry that the console is the only profitable platform. Steam DRM is actually mild. Steam doesn't increase piracy; things like the DRM scheme on the first shipment of Spore do. Plus, being able to install the game on any PC running Steam should further decentivize piracy. This is a general DRM complaint that Steam is most certainly not immune to. Steam is a DRM, DRMs are a driving force behind piracy, ergo Steam, albeit only one in a sea of far worse ones, is a driving force behind piracy. This will remain true as long as DRMs exist.
Guest Loogie Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 But some people have bandwitdh caps and would rather not waste precious bandwidth on updates whenever the hell Steam wants to put them in. And no' date=' until they fix Offline mode, they can't just turn it off, because they have to log in long enough to go into Offline mode.[/quote'] In my experience, you have to restart Steam for updates to be applied - it doesn't force them on you. You can also play Steam games without updating them, unlike an Xbox. As for the bandwidth limit, the few kilobytes the servers use to find out you have an active copy to install isn't going to make or break anyone. And if bandwidth is truly a concern, a person won't leave Steam running, and when they turn it on they can decline the update. Also, I routinely use Steam games on my laptop where there is no internet connectivity. It works fine. And besides. We're talking about a single-player game here. There is no reason you should ever have to be online to play a single player game I'd rather have to be online for 5 minutes when installing than input a 16 digit authentication code that I will eventually, without exception, lose. Also, on the point of borrowing versus piracy - borrowing a PC game is piracy. If you're temporarily keeping the title to tryout prior to buying it, there's no difference between pirating and getting it from a friend.
Grumpf Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 In my experience, you have to restart Steam for updates to be applied - it doesn't force them on you. My point still stand. You need internet on your gaming plateform. It is a limitation and has no added value. I'd rather have to be online for 5 minutes when installing than input a 16 digit authentication code that I will eventually, without exception, lose. Let's say I'll ignore the fact you're not able to write down (like online) a 16 digits password because it's your choice... So if you CAN use your steam account OR put the code everything's fine. What I'm against is to FORCE you to use steam. Also, on the point of borrowing versus piracy - borrowing a PC game is piracy. If you're temporarily keeping the title to tryout prior to buying it, there's no difference between pirating and getting it from a friend. Yes obviously. Lending is legal, haven't heard of the hundreds of thousands of stores that rent games? Think of it as a book, what you really paid for is the intellectuel property to have on item and enjoy it. You can't make photocopy of it (unless it's for you), you can't quote it for money and you can't re-publish part of it. So do you know what a library is? X Modding support is uncertain Has nothing to do with Steam and everything to do with Bethesda making their games for consoles instead of PCs. I agree about the consoles vs PC and the modding consequences. Still, steam will certainly not ease it, at best it'll do nothing so let's remove this point as it doesn't really matter. X Will increase piracy amongst geeks and or boost console sales. Thus fooling even more game industry that the console is the only profitable platform. Steam DRM is actually mild. Steam doesn't increase piracy; things like the DRM scheme on the first shipment of Spore do. Plus, being able to install the game on any PC running Steam should further decentivize piracy. This is a general DRM complaint that Steam is most certainly not immune to. Steam is a DRM, DRMs are a driving force behind piracy, ergo Steam, albeit only one in a sea of far worse ones, is a driving force behind piracy. This will remain true as long as DRMs exist. Yup, DRM just punish the legal customer. I purchased star trek in Blu-Ray --> X Rapid obsolescence of the game (for how long will it be supported?) Forever. In the unlikely event Steam ever does shut down, I'm sure they'll rig it up so everything bought on it still works. Most likely. So yeah, this point is kinda silly. Well, let's remove that as only time will tell but I'm taking the bets! Cheers.
sora3 Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 In my experience' date=' you have to restart Steam for updates to be applied - it doesn't force them on you. [/quote'] My point still stand. You need internet on your gaming plateform. It is a limitation and has no added value. To be honest, that point is a bit mute given how the internet is so prevalent and almost criminally cheap. I can understand if you're not using a fast internet but overall, the internet is a part of your life, whether you like it or not. I'd rather have to be online for 5 minutes when installing than input a 16 digit authentication code that I will eventually' date=' without exception, lose. [/quote'] Let's say I'll ignore the fact you're not able to write down (like online) a 16 digits password because it's your choice... So if you CAN use your steam account OR put the code everything's fine. What I'm against is to FORCE you to use steam. Err, how many times did you do that to all your games I wonder, Grumpf? I'm quite careful with my CD-keys but I prefer Steam as it is just input once and you're off. If you say that, then tell me you do that to every single retail boxed games. If you don't do that, I'm not convinced you are the saint you try to be. Also' date=' on the point of borrowing versus piracy - borrowing a PC game is piracy. If you're temporarily keeping the title to tryout prior to buying it, there's no difference between pirating and getting it from a friend. [/quote'] Yes obviously. Lending is legal, haven't heard of the hundreds of thousands of stores that rent games? Think of it as a book, what you really paid for is the intellectuel property to have on item and enjoy it. You can't make photocopy of it (unless it's for you), you can't quote it for money and you can't re-publish part of it. So do you know what a library is? X Modding support is uncertain Has nothing to do with Steam and everything to do with Bethesda making their games for consoles instead of PCs. I agree about the consoles vs PC and the modding consequences. Still' date=' steam will certainly not ease it, at best it'll do nothing so let's remove this point as it doesn't really matter.[/quote'] These two I agree on. X Will increase piracy amongst geeks and or boost console sales. Thus fooling even more game industry that the console is the only profitable platform. Steam DRM is actually mild. Steam doesn't increase piracy; things like the DRM scheme on the first shipment of Spore do. Plus' date=' being able to install the game on any PC running Steam should further decentivize piracy. This is a general DRM complaint that Steam is most certainly not immune to. Steam is a DRM, DRMs are a driving force behind piracy, ergo Steam, albeit only one in a sea of far worse ones, is a driving force behind piracy. This will remain true as long as DRMs exist. [/quote'] Yup, DRM just punish the legal customer. I purchased star trek in Blu-Ray --> You are quite anti-DRM which I can understand. HOWEVER, Steam's DRM is quite mild in comparison towards something akin to what Ubisoft or Blizzard does with their games. To be constantly online whenever you want to game? If you're so anti-Steam, then I demand that you pirate this game as a point into your anti-DRM stance. Seriously, this is something I am willing to support if you do it. Your words are building an image of an irate gamer that can't his way. Back it up actions and I'll take all that back. X Rapid obsolescence of the game (for how long will it be supported?) Forever. In the unlikely event Steam ever does shut down' date=' I'm sure they'll rig it up so everything bought on it still works. Most likely. So yeah, this point is kinda silly.[/quote'] Well, let's remove that as only time will tell but I'm taking the bets! I doubt it. I still have games in which the developer has gone bust such as Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines. If you actually had used Steam, then you'd probably would notice that the games that don't use Source are installed fully onto the disk in a similar vein as your retail copy. It's just that it'll use Steam to start up instead of the launcher.
Grumpf Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 In my experience' date=' you have to restart Steam for updates to be applied - it doesn't force them on you. [/quote'] My point still stand. You need internet on your gaming plateform. It is a limitation and has no added value. To be honest, that point is a bit mute given how the internet is so prevalent and almost criminally cheap. I can understand if you're not using a fast internet but overall, the internet is a part of your life, whether you like it or not. Reread the sentence just above... I will not start a war but It's written so no need to repeat myself... I'd rather have to be online for 5 minutes when installing than input a 16 digit authentication code that I will eventually' date=' without exception, lose. [/quote'] Let's say I'll ignore the fact you're not able to write down (like online) a 16 digits password because it's your choice... So if you CAN use your steam account OR put the code everything's fine. What I'm against is to FORCE you to use steam. Err, how many times did you do that to all your games I wonder, Grumpf? I'm quite careful with my CD-keys but I prefer Steam as it is just input once and you're off. If you say that, then tell me you do that to every single retail boxed games. If you don't do that, I'm not convinced you are the saint you try to be. I own over 30 licenses for various softwares, got a list in googledocs and a print in a small safe I just purchased. Plus my file here, on my server... Even my homeseer requires the mighty tubes to work probably, that's really aggravating... X Will increase piracy amongst geeks and or boost console sales. Thus fooling even more game industry that the console is the only profitable platform. Steam DRM is actually mild. Steam doesn't increase piracy; things like the DRM scheme on the first shipment of Spore do. Plus' date=' being able to install the game on any PC running Steam should further decentivize piracy. This is a general DRM complaint that Steam is most certainly not immune to. Steam is a DRM, DRMs are a driving force behind piracy, ergo Steam, albeit only one in a sea of far worse ones, is a driving force behind piracy. This will remain true as long as DRMs exist. [/quote'] Yup, DRM just punish the legal customer. I purchased star trek in Blu-Ray --> You are quite anti-DRM which I can understand. HOWEVER, Steam's DRM is quite mild in comparison towards something akin to what Ubisoft or Blizzard does with their games. To be constantly online whenever you want to game? If you're so anti-Steam, then I demand that you pirate this game as a point into your anti-DRM stance. Seriously, this is something I am willing to support if you do it. Your words are building an image of an irate gamer that can't his way. Back it up actions and I'll take all that back. I am using some DRM free version of main exe for some games I legally purchased. That and iso copy on my HDD with Daemon tools. They still got their money and as long as I have a hard copy with license this is legal in Belgium. I can my way whatever that means X Rapid obsolescence of the game (for how long will it be supported?) Forever. In the unlikely event Steam ever does shut down' date=' I'm sure they'll rig it up so everything bought on it still works. Most likely. So yeah, this point is kinda silly.[/quote'] Well, let's remove that as only time will tell but I'm taking the bets! I doubt it. I still have games in which the developer has gone bust such as Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines. If you actually had used Steam, then you'd probably would notice that the games that don't use Source are installed fully onto the disk in a similar vein as your retail copy. It's just that it'll use Steam to start up instead of the launcher. That's reassuring. I'm a bit parano as my main client now uses some hardware/software with a need of 20 years continual support, we never manage but that doesn't stop the FDA to require it from us... Cheers!
meero Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 You can remove the adds that pop up in Steam by going to settings > interface and unchecking the box at the bottom "Notify me..". Steam DRM certainly beats the shit out of Securom/Starforce/Tages, or anything that Ubisoft do. I'd love for the game to release and not have drm, but in 2011 no major publisher is going to do that sadly.
Grumpf Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 Sell the game with a simple little serial number for 20$ either on a cheap disc or by download. Problem solved... Same thing with music and movies. Let me download what I want how many times I want for 25$ a month, I won't bother burning DVD or storing anything, you'll have my membership for life and everyone will be happy... But no, here's what we got --> see the pic in previous post... FBI warning! For a movie? Seriously? And displayed in big on the screen of the fucking guy that is actually by definition not the one this message should be addressed??? Tell me how often you'll go to the supermarket if everytime you buy something the security will check and search you but don't do anything to the customers leaving without a purchase... Right...
Guest Loogie Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 The FBI warning is more akin to you going to the store and seeing a sign saying "No Shoplifting" than security frisking you. The internet is everywhere now, and IS NOT a requirement to run Steam past the initial install of a game. It's simple enough to decline automatic updates and to start Steam in offline mode. Complaining about the internet being a requirement for 30 seconds would be like living in the 60s and complaining computers now have screens instead of blinking lights. Steam games will always be supported. The first title to launch on Steam was Half-Life 2, and my copy still works just fine. As for you using DRM-free exes, that's a form of piracy - you're using illegally distributed reversed engineered files. Since videogames are expensive, and rarely have demos, my approach for years has been to pirate a game then buy it if it's any good. Case in point - Fallout 3 was awful and didn't deserve any money, while I went out right away and snatched up Alpha Protocol after giving it a go.
EvenstarGW Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Another service I'll have to sign up for, and probably will forget the password to within a year. I don't actually play very many games, but the ones I like I tend to play to death. The point that worries me is the future support issue. With the economy as it is right now, no company is safe from going bankrupt. So what if they do? You say the games wil stay supported, but who will support them? If special patches will be required to remove the steam dependency, who will pay for the servers to host them? I'm not convinced.
Grumpf Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 My point exactly. And the trolling above is not helping... Despite my clear point about the zero added value of steam and obsolescence risk you will still have fanboys worshipping.
HanPL Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 To be honest I only use Steam when Humble Bundle occurs buy those games pack for 1$ and add them to my account. Then remove steam from PC and wait till next Humble occurs... Where are old good times, when you inserted CD in your DVD drive instaled game and voila you can play. Now bullshit like DRM/Securom/ crap DLC or just literally showing players middle finger (like with MAFIA 2 large part of the game was cuted out and sold as DLC etc Also I remember when I bought GTA 4 Pre order, when I was trying to launch SecuROM was shouting that I don't have valid version or game or it's NOT in dvd drive... ) after 3~4 tries it finnaly launched. )
Guest Loogie Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 So what if they do? You say the games wil stay supported' date=' but who will support them? [/quote'] All they'd have to do is patch Steam so it works entirely offline. Simple, easy. My point exactly. And the trolling above is not helping... So you consider anyone to have a different opinion a troll? Despite my clear point about the zero added value of steam and obsolescence risk you will still have fanboys worshipping. Several of your points were not valid, and demonstrated the fact you have little or no experience with Steam. I'm not a fanboy, and I'm not worshipping, and it's probably not the label you want to be throwing around on a forum like this. While some of your points are legitimate, things like "It'll be harder to mod!" and "I have to be online constantly!" aren't among them.
HanPL Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 #1) moderators are always right. #2) in the case that a moderator is wrong, refer back to rule #1 And to be honest I don't have anything agains installing additional things to lauch game (unless they are stealing personal info which EA really likes to do.. ) as far as they don't launching the game real chore. Just look at "From Dusk " Steam is returning money to people who bought the game because of the DRM/Constant internet connection while playing. )
Guest Loogie Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 #1) moderators are always right. #2) in the case that a moderator is wrong' date=' refer back to rule #1 [/quote'] Ah, the Nexus code!
HanPL Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Na If that would be Nexus you would be banned long time ago for arguing with mod
Grumpf Posted August 26, 2011 Author Posted August 26, 2011 OUR discussion is trolling, not only people with whom I disagree. I still to be pointed out to the added value of Steam. Needing an internet connection to play your game, albeit only for 1 minute is an annoyance that serves no purpose. >>>Steam games will always be supported. We will have to agree on disagreeing on this you have no proof neither do I of the reverse. >>>As for you using DRM-free exes, that's a form of piracy. Re-read what I just said above. >>>While some of your points are legitimate, things like "It'll be harder to mod!" and "I have to be online constantly!" aren't among them. Hence they're not at all amongst my points... So I don't know why you want to prove me wrong on things we agree on
chukkake Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I'm on the road a lot, and I have internet pretty much wherever I go, no matter what hotel I'm staying in. Can't say that about access to my CD keys/game CDs. So for me, I'd rather use Steam than the old CD/key install/activation way. It's just more convenient for me than lugging around a lot of physical copies and pages of paper with codes on them, since I already have enough luggage to carry.
Grumpf Posted August 26, 2011 Author Posted August 26, 2011 LOL you guys crack me up... I mean it's easier for you to connect to Steam than... connect to your email et retrieve the one with your scan keys/doc text? Or a doc file on your laptop HDD (with the iso of the game...) Look at that on your smart phone (you travel a lot so you have an android or iPhone or BB right?). Ok ok, tell me now, how much does it pay to add for steam on forums disclaimer: It's a joke, I'm teasing you. It's the linux vs windows, mac vs PC I think this debate will never really be close but hey, it's good to vent sometime. Important bit is that skyrim better be a good game! Cheers.
HentaiGnome Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I'm confused. Is Steamworks separate from the Steam application that some of us may already have on our computers? (i.e. Playing Steam version of Oblivion)
FallenWarrior Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I'm confused. Is Steamworks separate from the Steam application that some of us may already have on our computers? (i.e. Playing Steam version of Oblivion) Hopefully this link will prove helpful about what Steamworks is Steamworks
Guest Loogie Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 I'm confused. Is Steamworks separate from the Steam application that some of us may already have on our computers? Hopefully this link will prove helpful about what Steamworks is The short answer is "no."
HentaiGnome Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 I'm confused. Is Steamworks separate from the Steam application that some of us may already have on our computers? (i.e. Playing Steam version of Oblivion) Hopefully this link will prove helpful about what Steamworks is Steamworks I'm confused. Is Steamworks separate from the Steam application that some of us may already have on our computers? Hopefully this link will prove helpful about what Steamworks is The short answer is "no." Thanks. I play Oblivion using the Steam version and have already downloaded a few other games from Steam. So I guess in my case I don't have anything to worry about once Skyrim is released; and even if I had to complain about something, it's kinda too late lol. As the saying goes: "If you can't fight 'em, join 'em!"
Recommended Posts