Anybody else getting annoyed with Patreon "support"?

[mirlo1]

I realy understand that patreon modders dont like my discussion thread. And i must say i can understand the patreon argument as well. But it gets too much exclusive content. I realy honor the work modders are doing and i am impressed of what they can. It just makes a difference between adverticing and early realse. And its for sure ok if modders ask community for support. But they should release their mods to the community after a bit time.

[doan77]

On 10/23/2017 at 7:19 AM, HWBandit said:

Heck there used to be people that actually ripped and hacked the paysites out of spite.

 

It's still there ...

[yomak]

Animators don't make anything significant from these patreon donations. I bet they are lucky to supplement the time they put into the tedious task of creating these animations. and thats just the thing, making the animations isn't that hard but it does take time to get it "right"

althrough the big thing that does bother me is locking parts of sets behind this wall. its annoying as hell to get half an animation, why not release full sets and lock other full sets behind this wall. Its like jerking off, and your almost there, but someone walks in and you have to stop being only half done. 

 

also. God Bless Arma72, i've been following your work for a few years now and you never fail to impress me. your probably the most talented animator i've seen on this site, and no pay walls. you are truly a fine example that should be followed by those who want to consider themselves "good" or "great". keep doing what you do best.

[Guest]

I don't like the paywall mods. I think it's greedy, but no one cares what I think, right?

 

Since the other thread just got locked, I feel like this issue is being swept under the rug.

 

The rule states, members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content. 

 

And one of the moderators said they give the Patreon people 3 months for their content to be behind a paywall. Well I think the rule needs to be changed for the current circumstances so this site won't be so hypocritical.

[Simite]

I'd just like to highlight a part of that rule that everyone keeps trying to use against these creators; nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content.  Read carefully to make sure you understand.

[MadMansGun]

2 hours ago, yomak said:

making the animations isn't that hard

HA, try making one for skyrim and say that, i even had to edit/rebuild SLAL & CF to get my animations working.

 

as for the topic: ALL PAYWALLS MUST DIE, i have already seen them kill other communities.

[hummingsims]

I personally don't see an issue. While people who don't pay aren't getting the entire package they ARE getting content, content a creator works hard on. If you really want an object or service and it has quality why not pay for it? Of course creators that charge ridiculous amounts aren't going to get diddly sqaut but supply implies demand, they have an active patreon so apparently people are satisfied paying. 

[gregathit]

1 hour ago, MadMansGun said:

HA, try making one for skyrim and say that, i even had to edit/rebuild SLAL & CF to get my animations working.

Agreed, animating is HARD!  I overhauled Lovers with PK and created the LAPF.  Created 142 animations with 4 stages for each NPC (offense and defense).  That's 142*4*2=1136 total animations.  Took me 4 months to learn how to animate with blender.  Then took me another year and a half to do the 1,136 animations.  I was so burned out I stopped modding.  No rig used.  Did all the animations by hand for Oblivion.  When I get back into the saddle, I want to move up to Skyrim or Fallout4.  Be a while still.  The LAPF nearly broke me.

[markdf]

1 hour ago, hummingsims said:

I personally don't see an issue. While people who don't pay aren't getting the entire package they ARE getting content, content a creator works hard on. If you really want an object or service and it has quality why not pay for it? Of course creators that charge ridiculous amounts aren't going to get diddly sqaut but supply implies demand, they have an active patreon so apparently people are satisfied paying. 

Paying for it can be hard. Low-income gamers tend to see paid content as forcing us out, because we literally can't afford stuff like Patreon, and can't justify paying $5 every time we want to try out a mod. It doesn't matter how hard the developer worked and how good the content is, we still can't afford it.

 

Paying for the game itself (and a system to run it on) is hard enough, and often requires making sacrifices in other areas of our lives. So we often choose games that have a modding community because that increases the replayability of the game and makes it a better investment. So when content starts getting locked behind paywalls, some people react with a lot of anger and frustration.

[meme supreme]

I can sympathize with the poverty perspective. I'm ok with money, but my money is worth a fucking twentieth of its value when compared to dollars, and let's not even talk about euros.. A lot of mods have transitioned to it in full, only releasing things very rarely for free users, and even then it's outdated content that has long since been outshined by new stuff. There's a lot of people that also directly commission things that never release for anyone besides that specific commisioner, and I'd feel weird paying for a patron knowing a significant part of that time is dedicated to content I'll never get to see regardless of how much I'd pay or wait.

it's not like I haven't done anything either. I've released a few mashups for Skyrim -- super basic stuff compared to real modding but I'm still pretty happy with it, and knowing that people enjoy my stuff enough to use it in their game is a super rewarding feeling. Maybe it's this feeling going away that ends with so many authors transitioning into Patreon?

I agree that this eventually will kill modding. Goodwill is everything in a gaming community, taking that away and replacing it with transactions really won't lead anywhere good. ((hint: the Creation Club))

[Redabyss]

I rest my case. I don't see why this community wouldn't force creators to update their contents after one month max, maybe one and half top. Three months is way too much.

Patreon is not a demon, per se, but when people start abusing it, this becomes a problem.

Also there should be a rule which forces newcomers to upload freely for a while, before publicizing their Patreon page. Too many newcomers just pop up and spam their pages.

 

Let's face it. Surely The Sims 4 has grown A LOT in terms of animations, and that's THANKS to Patreon, no doubt about it.

Creators should be rewarded for their work, and sometimes they don't even receive the most basic "thank you".

But, the list of Patreon pages is something unbelievable, and needs more moderating.

[markdf]

12 minutes ago, Redabyss said:

I rest my case. I don't see why this community wouldn't force creators to update their contents after one month max, maybe one and half top. Three months is way too much.

Patreon is not a demon, per se, but when people start abusing it, this becomes a problem.

Also there should be a rule which forces newcomers to upload freely for a while, before publicizing their Patreon page. Too many newcomers just pop up and spam their pages.

 

Let's face it. Surely The Sims 4 has grown A LOT in terms of animations, and that's THANKS to Patreon, no doubt about it.

Creators should be rewarded for their work, and sometimes they don't even receive the most basic "thank you".

But, the list of Patreon pages is something unbelievable, and needs more moderating.

I guess maybe the pressure has to come from patrons. If people who do contribute to a patreon start demanding that the authors follow the One-Month principle, it would probably go a long way towards keeping the peace with other users.

[MadMansGun]

11 hours ago, gregathit said:

Agreed, animating is HARD!  I overhauled Lovers with PK and created the LAPF.  Created 142 animations with 4 stages for each NPC (offense and defense).  That's 142*4*2=1136 total animations.  Took me 4 months to learn how to animate with blender.  Then took me another year and a half to do the 1,136 animations.  I was so burned out I stopped modding.  No rig used.  Did all the animations by hand for Oblivion.  When I get back into the saddle, I want to move up to Skyrim or Fallout4.  Be a while still.  The LAPF nearly broke me.

i think i'm just under 600 hkx files for skyrim and i don't use rigs ether.

from what i've seen blender can be a fucking nightmare to use for skyrim animations, so if you do try you may want to take some ibuprofen before the headache starts.

[R-Lo]

15 minutes ago, IIPrincessII said:

One thing I'm mainly annoyed by is the constant argument of "Modders invested hours into modding so they deserve money". I've read it in every argument that endorses paying for mods. It's time for a more sensible approach. Modders have always invested time and countless hours into program modifications since the beginning of computer creation. I've created some for personal use and the hours flew by. It's nearly illegal to charge money for a modification of a program you do not possess the talent, money, nor skills to create. That's why mods started out as free. If you don't have 'the time' to create a mod then you shouldn't be in the modding community. LL is supported under Patreon because it's NOT a mod. It's a free website that hosts mods. I've heard almost every excuse for this foolishness by now. 

 

Modding is a hobby, not a career. That's the way it is since modders do not own the rights to the program they're creating a modification of. Creating the program itself is a career. I only bought TS4 because of WW mod. See how that works? The modification is dependant on the program, while the program is independent of mods. Which means TS4 is fully functional without mods. Downloading mods is completely optional. However, what's the number one thing in the world that sells? Sex. Some modders won't admit they're taking advantage of a free sex mod to replace their career with sitting at home on their computers all day. Fact: The more experienced and talented you are in modding, the less amount of time you spend creating mods. There is a new trend of creating a few unskilled animations on LL, then uploading the rest on Patreon for quick income.

 

I am very supportive of the idea of Patreon 'donation' links being inside of modders signature instead of being advertised on a free modding site. Now I will take the time to acknowledge one of the best animation creators on LL who deserves far more appreciation for his talent, free advice/tips, quality, effort, and old school modding; Amra. You get a lot of jealous tension, but know us grateful users still admire and appreciate you and everything you've offered into this community. A simply thank you could go a long way, but that hardly exist anymore on LL. Most hide behind the term "Opinion" all too often now. It's like an ass-hole. Everyone has one. 

So it's back to self entitlement, only the lonely, bored or single get to mod because a few people don't like the fact patreon exists, gimme a break,

 

When Wickedwhims broke, there were stream and flood of people declared that they rely on the mod as they "will not play without it" 

 

As for the free hosting site.... Again people skip the first rule to jump to the patreon one...

 

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•  #1

Posted May 5, 2011

 

• The biggest and most important thing of this community, is that the modders come first. They are the ones who make this community worth coming to, they are the ones enabling you to even play these mods.  Meaning if you don't like the way a mod is going, don't be a jerk about it, they can take the mod in whatever direction they want. Don't like it? Then make your own release and put the work in yourself. Find a bug or issue that needs to be fixed? Don't be a jerk about it and raise your concerns and feedback in a constructive manner.

 

Its pretty clear that site and contributing creators work hand in hand, one can't exist without the other, what's the point of people sharing mods and knowledge if only a select few loners are deemed "allowed" to use them,

 

Also, time spent creating something is not to be sneered at when you're all looking to hang the ones who work fast too,

 

Using Sims 4 as an example, it was built to be modded, from it's structure to its flaws, if EA/MAXIS  really had a problem with any of that poor intimidation attempt, it'd been squashed in the days of TS3,

 

People by the millions have bought the game purely for the lewd mods that are available here, in the process lining EA/MAXIS  pockets even further and they are well aware of that and continue to leave the door open for it to happen,

 

If anything from what I've read, since TS3 they opened it a bit wider and made it even easier for people to do.

You think they'll change any of that because of a few people here don't like it?

[Redabyss]

4 minutes ago, IIPrincessII said:

When you're ASS-suming people who create quality mods falls into that category, that makes you look like an even bigger fool. Especially ignoring the fact that modders with experience may spend less time modding to produce quality work. You've been appearing on everyone's argument in this thread, and threads alike, which is evident you're pushing the paid mods agenda hard by insulting everyone with your careless choice of words. While you're busy insulting many modders in this community, your animations fall into an unskilled category - yet you have a patreon. You're insulted because you 'fit' the description of this thread and many counter-arguments.  

You don't know R-Lo.

[R-Lo]

13 minutes ago, IIPrincessII said:

When you're ASS-suming people who create quality mods falls into that category, that makes you look like an even bigger fool. Especially ignoring the fact that modders with experience may spend less time modding to produce quality work. You've been appearing on everyone's argument in this thread, and threads alike, which is evident you're pushing the paid mods agenda hard by insulting everyone with your careless choice of words. While you're busy insulting many modders in this community, your animations fall into an unskilled category - yet you have a patreon. You're insulted because you 'fit' the description of this thread and many counter-arguments.  

 

Again - Many of us DO-NOT mind those who wants an income out of a modding hobby to have a Patreon, as long as they're not using this FREE modding site to host their own agenda. That makes you, and those who think alike, self-entitled by misusing a website's purpose for your own gain. Make your own website to advertise if you must, or just leave the link in your signature. You can't always have everything your way, like the spoiled children analogy you mentioned before. 

You're really barking up the wrong tree, 

I could easily push out quickly produced animations as many do but I choose not to, yes im a beginner and people can visually see the progress I've made in short time and also the fact that I'm very quick to share the  things I've learned rather than behave like some spoilt elite, your words don't offend me, just show you for a spiteful person.

 

I push on this argument, not as a creator of patreon but as a gamer, I only came here last year and see too many people losing their shit and crying for it all to be torn down because it got uploaded somewhere else first, it's sad and pathetic that people complain about that and if everyone worked an hr here and there when they felt like it'd be far from +2000 here,

 

And this talk of "using this FREE modding site to host their own agenda" is fueled only by ones own agenda because they see a mod and feel that it should belong to them already. 

 

I'm no sales person, just someone who's having fun learning new ways to show my stuff and having fun while doing it, I've always been creative and musically minded and happy to share that so if that's insulting to you then social media might not be your thing?

 

My words are far from careless as it is purely evident that I'll think of all angles and not just my own narrow view

[mirlo1]

43 minutes ago, IIPrincessII said:

When you're ASS-suming people who create quality mods falls into that category, that makes you look like an even bigger fool. Especially ignoring the fact that modders with experience may spend less time modding to produce quality work. You've been appearing on everyone's argument in this thread, and threads alike, which is evident you're pushing the paid mods agenda hard by insulting everyone with your careless choice of words. While you're busy insulting many modders in this community, your animations fall into an unskilled category - yet you have a patreon. You're insulted because you 'fit' the description of this thread and many counter-arguments.  

 

Again - Many of us DO-NOT mind those who wants an income out of a modding hobby to have a Patreon, as long as they're not using this FREE modding site to host their own agenda. That makes you, and those who think alike, self-entitled by misusing a website's purpose for your own gain. Make your own website to advertise if you must, or just leave the link in your signature. You can't always have everything your way, like the spoiled children analogy you mentioned before. 

Thats a bit rude. Here is a discussion about it. And ofc some are pro patreon and some are against it like me. But you should respect his opinion. I would also be interested to know if they declare that as income in their tax return. And they use programs to mod things that have a billing disclaimer to use just for private use and not commercial. They ignore alot facts just to make profit out of their hobby.

But i am not an innocence lamb who is doing everything right. So i dont point on them for such things. I just think they should be fair and see that what they do isn´t completely correct as they often argue.

I agree with you that R-Lo is realy ignoring arguments against it. And there are much more arguments against than pro in my opinion.

[R-Lo]

4 minutes ago, mirlo1 said:

Thats a bit rude. Here is a discussion about it. And ofc some are pro patreon and some are against it like me. But you should respect his opinion. I would also be interested to know if they declare that as income in their tax return. And they use programs to mod things that have a billing disclaimer to use just for private use and not commercial. They ignore alot facts just to make profit out of their hobby.

But i am not an innocence lamb who is doing everything right. So i dont point on them for such things. I just think they should be fair and see that what they do isn´t completely correct as they often argue.

I agree with you that R-Lo is realy ignoring arguments against it. And there are much more arguments against than pro in my opinion.

The only arguement here is that patreon and Kickstarter didn't exist back when these things and sites started out,

 

I'm not ignoring the arguments people make,

I 100% agree that mods should NEVER be indefinitely paywalled or shown as patreon exclusive, DF gets a pass in my book as too many will flame over that too,  and yes prices are too high, I've also said many times that the Patreon creators should pay more attention here,

 

So please know your shit before calling people ignorant 

 

I try to dissolve arguments, not just try to raise them for upvotes 

[R-Lo]

Funny thing is that people are complaining about all they see is patreon, 

The site is far bigger than the download section

 

 

Last month, Slimreaper was badmouthed for not releasing here, yet he hadn't previewed or "advertised" anything in just as long, "kept his stuff on his own website" like you say,

That pissed you all off and he got reported for it, that is the epitome of hypocrisy and that is what ultimately pissed me off when this discussion arises like clockwork at the end of a month again.

Great way to encourage the sharing, having creators cut away from everyone just to not hear the constant complaint of a few.

[R-Lo]

10 minutes ago, IIPrincessII said:

I may not know you personally but you come off as very egocentric and insulting the way you demonize this website's purpose and bend the rules. You've used name calling in several different posts made by you. It reminds me of childlike antics. If this site being a FREE modification website bothers you, no one is stopping you from creating your own to produce paid content. You seem upset that people don't want you or others bending the LL rules and demeaning the website's purpose. Though, the moderators are far more lenient than other popular sites like Nexus. You can't force people into buying Patreon content by baiting them and misusing this site. I've seen someone create a sex sequence, then made the climax Patreon only. It's really getting out of hand the things I've seen on this site. Calling everyone entitled because this website's purpose is to host free mods is showing resentment towards what this community stands for. This is a community of modders that help each other create exciting new content for each other's games. If modding as a hobby isn't fun for you, or you feel indifferently like you'd only do it for money as an incentive, then do what's best for you. Just don't force this website to convert to that agenda.  

It what way do I demonize the website? When I spend time here helping others to play and create while sharing my game and showing my characters, I didn't just disappear off to Patreon site once I got what I needed like people get accused of, so your accusation is unjustified, rude and plain stupid as is your judgement of me, 

I don't tease my work, I show it and if I didn't then I'd just be slagged off for that instead,

 

So who wants it their own way? Making demands on how we present our preview and work in progress?

 

If I've name called then you may stamp yourself and everyone with that as I've held my tongue and remained more polite than most including the people who start these threads 

 

 I joined last year and it was already this way so I'm not out to change or convert anything.

It's already happened and people being too stubborn to face it shouldn't be made everyone else's problem

 

You can't talk about misuse of the site when you have all 7 posts to your name since and most of them are tied to this discussion trying to force a divide, either you're not a very encouraging user or created an extra profile for the purpose of saying things that you don't want your main account tied to, THATS MISUSE

 

I'm not egocentric,  just honest. And to do my bit as someone benefitting from  and contributing to the site, I'll subscribe to their patreon,

 

Flame on all your like and personal attacks you make only drive my point further.

 

People are more than entitled to a say or an opinion but month after month this acheives nothing.

[yomak]

22 hours ago, MadMansGun said:

HA, try making one for skyrim and say that, i even had to edit/rebuild SLAL & CF to get my animations working.

 

as for the topic: ALL PAYWALLS MUST DIE, i have already seen them kill other communities.

Skyrim isn't the sims 4 both use different programs for making animations. The sims is rediculous easy. You just need an eye for details and patience.

[gregathit]

10 hours ago, MadMansGun said:

i think i'm just under 600 hkx files for skyrim and i don't use rigs ether.

from what i've seen blender can be a fucking nightmare to use for skyrim animations, so if you do try you may want to take some ibuprofen before the headache starts.

Yea, I looked into that and frankly it is why I haven't started animating yet.  I know I'm going to have to learn how to use 3dsmax for skyrim and f4.  While blender is horribly clunky, I spent almost two years using it a couple hours each night and double that on weekends, so you get used to it.  Hell, I felt like I got pretty damn good at it.  LOL!  Took me four months to master the basics in blender.  Wonder how long 3dsmax will take me..............:(

 

Even after all this time, I don't think the tools to create animations for skyrim exist for blender..........that I have seen anyway.

[TenaciousV]

I love to support other creators in any way I can. I'm glad when I'm able to offer financial support, so patreon doesn't bother me. 
I do see the potential (and actual) issue with creators abusing LL for essentially free advertisement, and turning their patreon into a paywall due to lack of updates. 

Since we're on the subject of doing things solely for the love of custom content/modding, why not push for others to notify the creators when they're not updating their free content often enough? If it really is getting worse as time goes on, you can always report it when you see it.

I don't see the need to attack creators just because they aren't meeting your expectations. If they really are abusing the forum, report them and move on. 

[R-Lo]

The only bad thing is you freely judge people for using the site in the same way it's being used when they found it,

I'm not saying free mods is a bad thing nor have I tarred Everyone with the same brush which you continue to do even now by twisting words and trying to insist that previews for patreon pages are a problem yet people complained when those previews weren't shown here because that got moaned about too, that's a double standard doesn't benefit the site at all.

 

If you bothered to take the time, you'll see that I rather help out and give something back and it's not my fault if you can't handle the fact that times change and modding is more open to the public,

 

If you visit a gallery, it doesn't mean that you should own every artwork on the walls because you simply walked in for free,

 

 

And this.... 

egocentric

ˌɛɡə(ʊ)ˈsɛntrɪk,ˌiːɡə(ʊ)ˈsɛntrɪk/

adjective

1. 1.

   thinking only of oneself, without regard for the feelings or desires of others; self-centred.

   "egocentric loners with an overinflated sense of self-worth"

    

 

Only succeeds in showing how little attention you pay to my actions, words and uploads and sounds more like the vibe your giving off with your inability to accept change.

 

 

Ive said nothing out of line and you know full well that when I use the word "spoilt" or "entitled" it's aimed at a minority not "everybody"

 

If  all you want to stress is that vids and GIFs being shown here is wrong then you're making a  mountain out of a mole-hill, things can't be that interesting if this is such a huge and site breaking issue to you, 

 

The rules are currently being revised and updated to cover the grey areas that some people are complaining about so soon there will be no argument, 

 

While tiring out that old rule that is already in progress of change, try not forget the first two as they are just as important to everybody.

 

I don't need to say anything more, the constant digging and twisting that will follow will only further summerize the things that myself and the other neutral (or pro) users have been saying all along,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mirlo1]

1 hour ago, IIPrincessII said:

You're trying to make the fact that this website's purpose is to host free mods created by the community a bad thing, by associating the word free with 'entitled' (demonizing). You've called every user that uses this website 'entitled' and 'spoiled children' for disagreeing with your opinion. Users of this site only expect the mods to be free because that's what this website has been created for. Would you walk into a Pet's Supply Store in hopes of buying a brand new TV? That makes it your opinion if you feel that the mods here should cost money. You're confusing fact with opinion when the website's rules are very clear. Those of us wanting the rules to be better enforced does not make us 'narrow thinkers'. You insult so freely I can't tell if you genuinely feel it's the opposite. It was already stressed to you several times in ALL my posts to use Patreon without advertising it here. Who could argue that?

 

Lastly - Not sure how this pertains to the subject but; I don't have countless hours in the day to sit around on the internet, making thousands of posts on a community forum, insulting people who don't share my opinion, digging around for an argument, making assumptions about others, etc. I created this account for a Skyrim mod I downloaded over a year ago and came back for WW. Though I rarely play either game. Also - sorry for so many late replies today. I had other things to do with my life. 

L-Ro means you can only have a different oppinion than him if you have hundrets of posts. A voice isn´t a voice for him if you arn´t a big poster. That point makes me also angry like you. And when i am nice to him and say to some not to be rude to L-Ro because we discuss here instead of thank me he starts to become rude to me and spits on me. I will just ignore him for now till he excuse to the people.