Why I dislike unions.

[Kashiwaba Tomoe]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/07/22/Union-Workers-Sabotage-Nursing-Homes-During-Strike

 

In the US at least, they've been doing more and more stuff like this over the years if they don't get their way.

[Ark of Truth]

Yeah somethings they do is just stupid.

[gregathit]

Unions played a vital and import role in our history. However, their time is now over. IMHO they do far more damage than aid and should be done away with.

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

Almost nobody in a union today know the true pain and suffering the people before them went through that caused them to form unions in the first place. They have no appreciation for how badly others had it before them.

 

They're like spoiled children who feel they're entitled to more and more because WE'RE IN A UNION AND YOU'RE BUSINESS SO WE'RE GOOD AND YOU'RE NOT POWER TO THE WORKERS! I'd love to have seen them in the working conditions of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

The worst of the worst is still teachers, though; I have a lot of respect for educators trying to drag this shithole out of an educational dark age that we've been plunged into, but teachers unions are some of the worst. They're almost like the Vatican in a way; you can never get them to outright fire anybody, they just shift them around or stone wall.

 

Because they're in a union, a lot of HORRIBLE teachers are basically untouchable because there's so much bullshit and hoops you have to jump through to be able to take any action against them.

 

HOWEVER, when it comes to people trying to form a union in, say, Wal-Mart, I totally support them. That company outright abuses its work force all around the world while reaping massive profits and claiming that they're helping people.

[prideslayer]

Unionizing is a right, I have no problem with it in concept, and don't think they should be outlawed or anything like that.

 

I *do* have a problem with states that aren't "right to work" where co-called "closed shops" are allowed. The problem here is simply one of an employee being forced to join a union or lose his/her job, if the employees vote to unionize -- or not being able to get a job you otherwise want and are qualified for, if you won't join the union.

 

If you think hard about it though, its still a tough call, even on that front. Who's to say that the company can't enter a contract with it's employees that makes joining a condition of employment?

 

My strong libertarian streak makes me hate unions at the same time I defend their right to exist, and a companies right to enter into an exclusive contract with them.

[gregathit]

I hear what you are saying Prideslayer but unfortunately you just have to look at the evidence to see unions are bad for America. A rivet jockey can't make $75,000 plus a year and have a company stay solvent. Unions are generally successful at driving up wages but if you look deeper you will find that it is all wiped out due to the increased costs. The employer just passes this stuff along to the consumer (provided they will stand for the high prices) and at the end of the day nothing is actually gained.

 

Unions right now are guilty of some of the most heinous behavior and to be blunt make the mobsters look good.

 

Unions had their time and accomplished great good but like many other things their time has passed. It is time to outlaw them and move on. Wages may go down but so will prices.

 

Closed shops are little more than legalized mobsters. I have spent two decades in construction management and operated in most of the 48 continental states so I have had to deal with these knuckleheads before. Right to work states are a hundred times easier to build projects in!

 

My parents are higher ed educators/admin and some of the stories of things professors get away with because of tenure is just ridiculous. It is time to cut this rot out of America before we lose our legs to it. Just my thoughts....feel free to disagree....

[prideslayer]

Being "bad for America" isn't enough to outlaw something, that's my point there. I know that they're bad, and if I had to come down on one side or the other, I'd come down on the side saying to make the idea of a closed shop illegal. I won't go so far as to say unions themselves have to be illegal, that's not just unconstitutional, it's unenforceable. After all, at its core, a union is just a group of people that agree to quit or strike together.

 

That last bit I think is the bit that the justice system could sink some teeth into, because getting an entire group of people to agree to strike (thus costing the business money) if their demands aren't met stinks of racketeering.

[GSBmodders]

Unions are for the most part all that stands between earning a fair wage and 20 cents an hour. Nike did not go to India and begin paying workers a fair wage. Nike rollled into India and paid workers 20 cents a week to work a 16 to 18 hour shift in working conditions so piss poor even 60 minuits had a hard time digesting the story it ran, is this the future that you want to see for america?

 

Do not delude yourselves into thinking that if Labor Unions ceased to be everything would get better. They wont, if things were going to get better they all ready would be. If anything without unions things will get worse for everyone but those who are all ready rich. You need to take a close look at what the republican candidates have uttered before surrendering to Mitt Romney. Rick Santorum suggested that Obama is a snob for believing that everyone should have access to a college education, good ole Newt suggested that our children be put to work instead of educated through jr high and high schools.

 

Class warfare is very real in America, the lower and middle class is under constant attack and suckers in both groups keep on falling for the same shit and voting for those who would turn them into corporate serfs.

 

I would also like to point out that Companies do not need to move overseas to earn a profit and compete. Before they chose to move most of these companies were actively selling there products well above the manufacturing costs to begin with. Moving production out of the country or out sourcing operators has to deal with greed plain and simple. Maybe you have not noticed but Nike shoe's did not get less expensive to buy neither did Reebok so the no union things get less expensive theory is shit.

[gregathit]

Unions are for the most part all that stands between earning a fair wage and 20 cents an hour. Nike did not go to India and begin paying workers a fair wage. Nike rollled into India and paid workers 20 cents a week to work a 16 to 18 hour shift in working conditions so piss poor even 60 minuits had a hard time digesting the story it ran' date=' is this the future that you want to see for america?

 

Do not delude yourselves into thinking that if Labor Unions ceased to be everything would get better. They wont, if things were going to get better they all ready would be. If anything without unions things will get worse for everyone but those who are all ready rich. You need to take a close look at what the republican candidates have uttered before surrendering to Mitt Romney. Rick Santorum suggested that Obama is a snob for believing that everyone should have access to a college education, good ole Newt suggested that our children be put to work instead of educated through jr high and high schools.

 

Class warfare is very real in America, the lower and middle class is under constant attack and suckers in both groups keep on falling for the same shit and voting for those who would turn them into corporate serfs.

 

I would also like to point out that Companies do not need to move overseas to earn a profit and compete. Before they chose to move most of these companies were actively selling there products well above the manufacturing costs to begin with. Moving production out of the country or out sourcing operators has to deal with greed plain and simple. Maybe you have not noticed but Nike shoe's did not get less expensive to buy neither did Reebok so the no union things get less expensive theory is shit.

[/quote']

 

 

Ah, but you are smart enough to realize that things are not so cut and dried as you are making out here. Nike shoes (and every other product they make) sells at the price the public will pay. It has nothing at all to do with unions versus non-union.

 

This circular logic as been argued forever and guess what....it isn't true. The non union states are paying close to the same price as union states for skilled labor. What "will" see a big drop is folks making $75k for driving rivets. That is a needed deal. You can't continue to pay those big dollars for low skill jobs. The system just won't handle it. Let's also take a hard look at the corruption and lobbying that goes on. Things are not as rosy as most believe.

 

I would agree that class warfare is alive and well. It will never cease as one group is always going to pursue the others to its own advantage. Besides you are throwing out jabs at the republicans here and the democrats are just as bad if not worse. What party controlled the house/senate/presidency that passed that horrid healthcare bill that we still haven't figured out how to pay for? Didn't they also fail to pass a budget for two years? Didn't they advocate the huge bailout that didn't work? No, both parties in office and going for office, are all in one class - the rich. They damn sure don't have the slightest clue about the middle or lower classes, so let's not kid ourselves here.

 

I hear the .20 cents an hour nonsense every time I have to construct a project in the mixed states and the labor unions plead with me to restrict bidding to only allow them and not non-union personnel. It makes me sick that they want my client to pay 20-40% more.....for what? Where is the value added? The funny thing is the non-union workers take home pay is within penny's of the union guys. Whose pocket is that 20-40% going into anyway?

 

Oh, and to further drive home the point: In all the right to work states....they have actually found the removal of the "closed shop" nonsense was actually good for everyone......except the union bosses of course.

 

I do think that state/national level unions should be outlawed. Folks are fine forming/joining unions at individual business for that particular location. I am iffy about city level but could allow it as a test case but nothing above city level. Just too much potential for corruption the larger they get.

 

Now abolishing unions is not the only fix that America needs but it is a damn good start. Next on my hit list is to limit politicians to 1 term at the local/state/federal. That would be three terms in total max and they don't get any retirement program for life either. They have to have 401k's that they pay into like everyone else. Politics needs to stop being a career choice and just something to add a little shine to your resume.

 

Also, I noticed everyone avoided the bit about teachers and tenure. You are aware that short of sexually molesting someone or engaging in criminal activity they can't be fired? Utter nonsense.

[thesapien]

If Nike can set up shop in a place where people are willing to take a job paying 20 cents a week working overtime, then that place has bigger problems. What were those workers doing before Nike showed up? Were they starving to death? And why did they need someone from another country to come give them a job? Why weren't they working for themselves? Why weren't they farming and building homes and such? Again, they had much bigger problems and simply forming a union to get 30 cents working for a company that then exports their goods after they've wasted time making shoes instead of schools isn't the solution. WTF are they doing making Nike shoes to be exported while certainly not getting a fair shake of the profits? They should either be forming their own shoe company and exporting shoes to pay for things at home or not making shoes to export at all.

 

Unions are a solution to unhappy slaves. They aren't a solution to getting people out of slavery.

 

And if the US Nike equivalent dropped to 20 cents a week, it would not be because unions went away. Again, bigger problems would force that. Basically, it would have to be probably what fucked up those people making 20 cents a week. It would be from people losing the ability to take care of themselves, to learning to rely on others, unable to start their own companies, and ultimately being slaves to a powerful system that will raid a farmer's co-op or shut down a lemonade stand because the right thugs weren't paid off via taxes, fees, permits, registration, inspectors, etc. We'd have to become a country where everybody demands a job because they've either forgotten how or are not allowed to work for themselves and trade among each other. Oh, wait, we're already headed there. So many people are completely helpless unless somebody else with some wealth gives them a job. The helpless need somebody who has deep enough pockets to pay off the government for them, even pay half their income taxes for them since the government thugs will still even tax the shit out of every dollar of wages.

 

I'm going to agree with Greg and Prideslayer that unions suck hairy balls. Unions only temporarily benefit a people, and even then only those who are members while fucking the rest; dido on the reasons already given by others in this thread. Members seem to become proud slaves who can do a shit job and are impossible to get rid off.

 

However, I'm going to further side with Prideslayer on how to NOT deal with unions. Making them illegal is the wrong way to go. I think that might have unintended consequences we'd all regret. (a war on unions?) Also, I think it would actually just be replaced by something much worse, namely; more government involvement to where all those things we hate about unions would be socialized into law by the city, state, and fed. This is actually where I think we're headed. If unions are seen to fail, then hello more socialism.

 

The problem with Prideslayer's and mine solution, we being more libertarian, is that it scares people and thus gets little support. No one wants to hear the best government action is to get the fuck out of the way, get government the hell out of our business so that we can more freely work for ourselves and each other. Self determinism and choice freak people out though. They want guarantees in life.

 

Another problem with our solution is that it removes government obstacles for everyone, the little guy and the big corporation, meaning that evil companies doing bad things need to be dealt with by us and not an overseeing agency. So Nike (if you think they are evil) can only be brought down by people taking responsibility for who they trade with. People can't just go trading dollars for shoes from a company without doing research first, nor can they trade labor for dollars from a company before doing some background checking first. I mean, they can, and many will, but that's the idea behind actual responsibility. Plus, it's not like having government regulators has actually ever been any better, right? Shirking responsibility seems to have ill consequences down the road.

 

So, yeah, the best solution is the hardest. It means giving unions less of a reason for existing. It means freeing us up to act like real adults freely trading, doing business, and whatever the fuck we want so long as it is mutually agreed upon by real adults.

 

Oh, and vote for Ron Paul. [plug]

[thesapien]

Also' date=' I noticed everyone avoided the bit about teachers and tenure. You are aware that short of sexually molesting someone or engaging in criminal activity they can't be fired? Utter nonsense.

[/quote']

 

Are you talking about PUBLIC school teachers? Aren't they unions who work for the government? Worst of both worlds!

[gregathit]

Also' date=' I noticed everyone avoided the bit about teachers and tenure. You are aware that short of sexually molesting someone or engaging in criminal activity they can't be fired? Utter nonsense.

[/quote']

 

Are you talking about PUBLIC school teachers? Aren't they unions who work for the government? Worst of both worlds!

 

Yes, and I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

One other thing to keep in mind....context. While 20cents may not seem like much to a US citizen for an hourly wage it is quite different for an Indian. Now don't go hauling out the pitch forks and torches just yet. India is in many respects still a third world country and everyone realizes that you can't compare wage scales between the US and India.

 

I love how a majority of folks cuss Walmart up one side and down the other but don't really bother to consider all the facts. Walmart is quite ruthless about driving costs down so that they can keep their own prices down. Sure they don't pay much to employees but they don't have any problem getting getting them, so someone, somewhere is accepting the wage. I say this only because I am sure this is an example someone is going to throw up sooner or later.

 

I understand your qualms about banning labor unions on the state level and up but I just don't see any issues that it would cause. As prideslayer alluded to earlier these giant labor unions are only a few steps from racketeering which already is illegal. I definitely don't want more government either way as that clearly is a loose/loose scenario for America.

 

No matter how you slice it, it is a difficult can of worms that sooner or later we will have to address. As to outsourcing.....well there are legitimate reasons for doing so, as everyone knows. If we can chop the government way back and institute right to work then I think we will see things start to turn around. It won't happen overnight but I think it will happen.

 

Now if Obama isn't booted out of office along with harry reid so that we can get on with repealing that horrible healthcare bill and come up with something that is "MUCH" smaller and actually will work, then all of this will be moot, as the debt balloons and inflation forces us to move to mexico......

[Dmouse52]

LOLz if you think you're unions are bad, please try ours in the UK. You'll find communism is alive and well (seriously)and they make absolutely no bones that THEY should be running the country because only THEY really understand right from wrong.

Now not all them are in this frame of mind but during the olympics there's going to be a strike over a minor point that's been blown into mountain sized proportions. I knew they were going to do it because all the noises for it started last year but they hadn't had any reason until now to call for one

[prideslayer]

Also' date=' I noticed everyone avoided the bit about teachers and tenure. You are aware that short of sexually molesting someone or engaging in criminal activity they can't be fired? Utter nonsense.

[/quote']

 

I'm not sure what there is to say about it. The teachers union is a bunch of gangsters, like any of the rest. Worse maybe. I read (ok, skimmed) some news story a few days ago about them being all up in arms that some state is pushing to ensure that *gasp* they are actually qualified to teach the subjects they are hired to teach.

[Kashked]

Heh, one of the most interesting things about frequenting an international forum like this is getting to see how things are in other countries.

 

Well, if you would like to know what happens when unions have a lot of power withouth getting too antagonistic you could look at sweden. "The Swedish model", called Saltjöbadsandan in Sweden, ("The Spirit of Saltjöbaden" - Saltsjöbaden being the place where the first agreement was struck) is basically a model where the three parties, the state, the unions, and the employers, have set up a system för negotiations for collective bargaining. The state's job is simply to stay out of the process, and let the employers (who have their own "union", which of course includes elements of the state that employs people) and the unions work out a deal. I think we have something like 90% of the population between 18 and 65 unionized, but the model is falling apart, with more people having individual agreements with their employer, and a lot of younger people not joining unions (which is considered one of the largest societal problems in Sweden atm).

 

The unions are pretty much an extension of the "Socialdemocratic workers party" which has had the power in Sweden for most of the 20th century, and in the past there were even forced joining, in order to be socially accepted on many workplaces you had to join the union, and by joining the union you joined the party as well, wheter you wanted to or not. This has been banned now though...

 

But the traditional unions in Sweden are losing in power, which I don't mind at all. Interestingly one of the worst unions is the union of the medical doctors... They have purposfully kept the number of students who are allowed to study medicine in Sweden at a low level for the last 30 years, creating a chronic lack of doctors, resulting in higher wages.

 

I'm not sure what there is to say about it. The teachers union is a bunch of gangsters, like any of the rest. Worse maybe. I read (ok, skimmed) some news story a few days ago about them being all up in arms that some state is pushing to ensure that *gasp* they are actually qualified to teach the subjects they are hired to teach.

 

Hehe, it's funny, in Sweden it's the other way around. The teachers unions (there are two which are in competition, for historical reasons to complicated to go into here) have for the last couple of years fought for a law requiring all teachers to have the appropriate qualifications for their subjects, and thanks to a liberal minister of education (don't read "liberal" from an american perspective, it has quite a different connotation in Europe) it has gone through and is now law.

[prideslayer]

I'm not sure what there is to say about it. The teachers union is a bunch of gangsters' date=' like any of the rest. Worse maybe. I read (ok, skimmed) some news story a few days ago about them being all up in arms that some state is pushing to ensure that *gasp* they are actually qualified to teach the subjects they are hired to teach.[/quote']

 

Hehe, it's funny, in Sweden it's the other way around. The teachers unions (there are two which are in competition, for historical reasons to complicated to go into here) have for the last couple of years fought for a law requiring all teachers to have the appropriate qualifications for their subjects, and thanks to a liberal minister of education (don't read "liberal" from an american perspective, it has quite a different connotation in Europe) it has gone through and is now law.

 

Definitely interesting getting other perspectives, and I'm well versed on how the word "liberal" has been coopted here over the past 50 or so years.

 

Teachers here are required to have certificates and often some sort of degree in their field, but like most testing done here, they aren't required to keep it current or demonstrate that they still have proficiency in their subjects.

 

Teachers being required to pass the same exams they are going to be giving their students. The horror. This is obviously unfair to them.. I'm sure we can find a way to claim it's bigoted, racist, and discriminatory as well..

[johneb]

Unions make your breath smell terrible.

[thesapien]

I, too, love the international perspective from this forum. Good stuff, everybody.

 

I love how a majority of folks cuss Walmart up one side and down the other but don't really bother to consider all the facts. Walmart is quite ruthless about driving costs down so that they can keep their own prices down. Sure they don't pay much to employees but they don't have any problem getting getting them' date=' so someone, somewhere is accepting the wage. I say this only because I am sure this is an example someone is going to throw up sooner or later.

 

I understand your qualms about banning labor unions on the state level and up but I just don't see any issues that it would cause. As prideslayer alluded to earlier these giant labor unions are only a few steps from racketeering which already is illegal. I definitely don't want more government either way as that clearly is a loose/loose scenario for America.

 

No matter how you slice it, it is a difficult can of worms that sooner or later we will have to address. As to outsourcing.....well there are legitimate reasons for doing so, as everyone knows. If we can chop the government way back and institute right to work then I think we will see things start to turn around. It won't happen overnight but I think it will happen.

[/quote']

 

Yeah, I also wouldn't pick on Walmart. They really don't seem that bad to me. And there are sometimes much worse examples in the little known small local shops. I don't get why people seem to assume that the local store owners are always so much nicer or more deserving.

 

As to laws and unions, I think if a union is racketeering, well, we've already got laws for that. Just enforce the laws we already have against such things. But I just think people should be allowed to freely organize into clubs and groups if they want, so long as they aren't breaking existing laws.

 

You mean "outsourcing" as in jobs overseas? I think there's a myth about the MAIN reason being lower costs of labor. Wages are indeed a factor, but the overall main reason that we see business being exported is political, I think. If I can set up shop somewhere else without worrying about lawsuits, taxes, thugs, or any number of other costly things out of my control, then I'd do it too. Lower wages offshore is probably offset by import taxes anyway.

 

It's like the US is overly protective of everybody (or at least tries to be) which results in everybody having too much power over everybody, as contradictory as that sounds!

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

Walmart is a huge company that rakes in billions of dollars; they should be able to offer their workers affordable health insurance, rather than tell them to go to the US government state and see if they can get Medicaid.

[prideslayer]

Walmart is a huge company that rakes in billions of dollars; they should be able to offer their workers affordable health insurance' date=' rather than tell them to go to the US government state and see if they can get Medicaid.

[/quote']

 

Why?

 

Walmart is a business, not a charity.

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

Why shouldn't they?

[prideslayer]

Why shouldn't they?

 

Get on the board and try to convince them, and I'm sure they'll enlighten you.

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

And I'm sure it'll all boil down to "because it'll make us richer".

[prideslayer]

And I'm sure it'll all boil down to "because it'll make us richer".

 

Your point?

 

That is the companies entire purpose for being. Again, they are not a charity.

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

If you build a successful company off the work of your employees (which is the only reason a company can survive is because of the workers), then you have an obligation to atleast offer them affordable health insurance.

 

But I guess this is because of my view that if you're wealthy, you have a social obligation to help those less fortunate then yourself.