Roleplay and (none consensual) sex. A discussion,

[Daguy]

This harkens back to a post I made a long time ago.

 

I like to write roleplay journals for my characters in sandbox games, and I also like to play with mods such as Sexout and Lovers. As such sex comes up, which is fine, but then I run into rape and blackmail and many other situations. Which is fine, I feel they belong in mature and occasonally downrght adult stories. What I struggle with is how the characters deal with the aftermath.

 

There are even a few examples that don't rely on sex mods. Crassius Curio in Morrowind has not one, but two different scenes where he blackmails the PC regardless of gender. In one he forces the PC to strip for him in a room with several people in it. In the other he forces the player to kiss him for advancement. If you are unlucky and forgot you even needed to talk to him for advancement, you can find that to become Hortator you need to strip and kiss him both.

 

A lot of people 'like' Crassius, as he is supposed to be a 'chivilrous pervert', and they are fans of the Argonian Maid. However, for a roleplayer he can be a genuinely disturbing figure, because such behavior is molestation even if there are no sex acts involved. At the very least a character would feel humilated and be fearing he might ask more of them.

 

I try to make my characters react realistically, to the point i've tried to read up on responses to sexual abuse, but even then its hard to pin down. Fact is there are as many different reactions as there are people.

 

In roleplay of a hero/oine, the character can't fall apart, especially when their next conversation could have them marching up Red Mountain to fight Dagoth Ur.

 

Trying to find a middle ground between these is tough for me. One PC, for example, was a hardened adventurer but also still a sexually inexperianced youg woman. I've actually written two different scenes involvng Crassius and I find myself splicing them one at a time into the diary as a whole, unsure which to settle on.

 

On one, I have her completely go to pieces as its happening, and then afterwards decide that she won't let it beat her. that she can't afford to fall apart with all of Morrowind at stake. I also have her lay him out after he gives her what she wants.

 

In the other, I have it not really get to her openly, aside from the shame at the time which she shrugs off. I don't actually like this one, it smacks too much of steriotypical heroine #233, and how she is emotionally a rock in any situation. Its unrealistic, when I like my hero/oines to still be normal people under their tasks.

 

With both I later have the charater break down, months down the line, with a great many broken objects in her venting.

 

Even in Skyrim. (Spoilers). One could also bring up the discovery that you have had a druken fling with a Hagraven. Its tongue in cheek, done as comedy, but froma roleplaying perspective it could have a profound effect on a character. Say you are roleplaying an innocent young, straight, milkmaid-come-Dovahkiin... and she fnds out she did the nasty with one of *those*. And doesn't even remember it. Date rape by Daedric Prince. With a desperate, elderly, monstrous bird-woman thing.

 

FO3, in The Pitt. Thats one area I always use sex mods to give a more realistic feel. Healthy as only a Vault Dweller can be, your characetr is beaten up, stripped, and put to work in slave rags while surrounded by amoral slavers. A character would have to be invisible to get through the situation without some form of molestation. We also have Point Lookout, where the PC has their skull cracked open while s/he is helpless, by a scumbag who spends months on the water and probobly only rarely even sees women. I'm not saying its a forgone conclusion, but its something to consider in roleplay.

 

Oblivion too. I can't think of any but the Sanguine Shrine quest, and (deservedly) having to run through a city naked, to escape the guards. If your character escapes, its still being humiliating and the townsfolk will remember what they saw. If you get caught you 'serve your time'... but I can't imagine the nobles would be happy with the humiliation. I'm sure there are others, but none spring to mind.

 

On some character I would find it interesting to explore the situation, on how abuse can change a person, and how the long road to recovery goes. Yet, most of the characters we play are supposed to be just human, and will still need to be mentally and emotionally sound enough to do and see things that themselves would break a normal person.

 

And all this is before we even get to the actual Sex mods. I also wrote a third scene, which I will never use since it would be too traumatising for her to continue on as she does from, where the kiss that Crassius wanted was much more adult and crotch based. Lovers & Legends helped.

 

Its complex enough to roleplay the mind of a young heroine going off to fight the dark elf devil, let alone wrapping ones head around doing so after being damaged by abuse. Its an extra pressure, one that can break even hardened soldiers.

 

 

There are any number of things to consider however.

 

So I ask... can I get any thoughts, opinions and experianced on how other people have handled such situations in roleplay?

[prideslayer]

I don't have a lot to offer, especially WRT morrowind and other TES games. Related to the specific NV situation though, and more generally, I have two thoughts.

 

First, I think you're overestimating the fragility of a persons psyche when confronted with simply getting naked or into their underwear in front of an audience in a non-sexual way. Everyone has done this, and even gotten naked, in gym showers starting from Jr. High school -- at least in this country, I don't know where you're from. Nobody I know has ever been traumatized by the act. Some people I were mildly upset over being made fun of (small ding-a-ling, no hair, poo-stains on undershorts, etc) but this is not nearly as bad as the "every day" psychological "abuse" happening in schools. None of them really got "messed up" over it.

 

Stripping down to your skivvies to enter the BoS base, IMHO, would be much less traumatizing to and adult who's familiar with the horrors of the wasteland than it is to innocent school kids in modern real society. I also think having a damn BOMB strapped to your neck and basically turned into a slave to "prove" your worth to the BoS would be a LOT more traumatic. If there's something for the character to fixate on in his/her journal, it would probably be that.

 

Which brings me to my second point, which really applies more to FO than it does to the TES games. The world of fallout is an unforgiving, brutal, lawless place. Various factions do try to enforce their own law, whatever that may be, but the grip is always tenuous and crime is rampant. By todays standards, everyone in fallout is a hardass.

 

When you get to Freeside, which seems like a fair representation of what any generic little settlement in the wasteland is/would be like in terms of how people live and are raised, there are kids chasing each other in the street with toy guns. When a gunfight breaks out in the street, they hide, and go right back to playing when it's over. Another kid is seen chasing a molerat around with a butcher knife, excited about slaughtering it for dinner.

 

It's probably safe to say that you (in FONV anyway), having not been raised in a vault, had similar experiences growing up. I think it would take a lot to really psychologically damage your average wasteland dweller.

 

In the TES games, it's probably a somewhat different story. Those worlds seem much more civilized, but still, no more than the medieval period or thereabouts, right? People living in that time period were subject to horrific conditions and witnessed countless atrocities that would send your average college student of today directly into therapy for the next decade.

 

TL;DR version: You may (I say may) be putting a little too much of yourself into the character, which is always the risk you run when role playing. Not only are their actions and reasons theirs and not "yours", but so is their entire history back to birth, taking place in the environment they are in, with the experiences that environment provides and the values (or lack thereof) it teaches.

[Daguy]

I actually tend to RP female characters to avoid putting too much of myself in the characters. If I RP a male, they always turn out the same way. I'm actually not a very shy person, not with my body or language. I'm also much more pragmatic than I make my characters for the most part. If I was puttng too much of my self into the characters, I would be having less trouble writing about things. =D

 

These situations are not about getting naked in a communal shower, or stripping or a physical. They are situatons where your control is forcably taken away, in the Morrowind example with sexual intent, and thats often where the harm lay. Perhaps I shouldn't have brought the NV one up as it is none-sexual and dlutes the point away from others which certainly are or have that as a factor.

 

I've known women who will happily strip off at a moments notice. But i've known many more who get embaressed if they are seen in their underwear. I've also known women who were groped and almost raped, and it had lasting effects throughout their lives.

 

I know you said you don't have a lot ot offer on the TES games, but the Morrowind example at the very least is sexual and blackmail, and the Skyrim one is... just downright disturbing.

 

I do see your point, but I think while I may be underestimating the strenght of the psyche, you may be under estimating (of course not on purpose) the effects of certain situations. While they would have had no choice but to live in, as you say things were harsher, I don't think a woman in either TES or the Fallout universe would be whistling to herself if some thug bent her over a crate.

 

The things is, in both Fallout and The Elder Scrolls you play as a strong character. A (anti)hero or heroine, whether good or bad. Sexual abuse, whether its being forced to strip for someones tittilation or being outright raped, basically victimized these characters who are so used to being 'strong and powerful'. I believe that it would have as bad if not worse an effect on someone who isn't used to being pushed around than it would on a poor housemaid in High Rock or squatter in Westside.

 

Its an often thrown around phrase, but rape is often about power more than sex. And even if your character is in a harsh world, that only makes that all the more jarring.

 

Though as you note, it does also depend on the character. I'd imagine Cass would have a much 'easier' time in a lot of situations than Veronica. Most of my female characters I play as tough but still feminine, like Veronica, rather than rough and world weary.

 

Generally though... from experiances, talking with women, and reading up on it situations like these would have proufound effects for the most part. I'd say characters like Cass become that was from varous hardships and trauma, rather than that just being their general character.

 

I appreciate the response, look forwards to seeing your response, and anyone else who would be kind enough to put forth some input. I really would like as many POVs as I can get.

 

 

TL;DR: Perhaps living such hard lives and going through such experiances is what makes the average wo/man rougher and tougher in settings like Fallout, rather than them dealing with them better because they are that way. I also roleplay characters that arn't as emotionally weathered as those such as Cass, so they react more like a Vault Dweller than a worker at the Gamorah.

 

Edit: Deleted the NV point, because I think it does dilute the topic.

[prideslayer]

Just about every NPC, in every one of these games, seems to hold "revenge" as a value above almost everything else, and none of "them" seem to suffer any psychological scars for any of the things they do or that have been done to them. It's not unreasonable to assume that the player is "cut from the same cloth."

 

My point is simply that what make you uncomfortable probably doesn't really faze them, and what makes you recoil in horror probably just makes them roll their eyes in disgust. Only truly horrifying acts (or self-preservation) seem to motivate them to action, and when they do get motivated, their primary thought seems to simply be revenge.

 

In FONV there are a few psychologically scarred characters that you can draw upon for typical reactions. Passing remarks from the NCR regarding the last battle at Hoover. Private Kowalski. Boone. Betsy.

 

All the named characters respond with violence. Kowalski goes postal on you if you deface the monument and/or talk shit to him. Boone talks a damaged game once in a while, but more often than not, his thoughts and actions always turn to revenge as the best medicine as well. Betsy gets classic depressed self destructive behavior, which will probably kill her in the long run, but in the short run makes her just like everyone else -- a devil may care attitude with violence in her heart.

 

The real problem here is that you have only four options, if you take the "I am seriously traumatized" path..

 

1. Get help. There's nobody "in game" to get help from, so you either have to imagine it -- or mod it. I think personally it would be awesome if someone wanted to code some kind of psychotherapist plugin for sexout that could help you recover after being abused/raped.

 

2. Shine it on. Turn the other cheek, and just focus on revenge and "never again." Whatever doesn't kill you, as Nietzsche said. Become a hard-ass, quickly or slowly, which may bring you to..

 

3. Go evil. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

 

4. Quit. If that's what the psychological makeup of the character you're RPing dictates, then that's the end of his/her "quest." There's no rule that says every character you roll has to complete the mission/quest/whatever.

 

The goal in all the games is for you to be some sort of hero or anti-hero, you are definitely the protagonist. However, you don't always start out that way. You're no hero at the start of FONV, nor are you at the start of Oblivion or Skyrim. In FO3 you're some kind of rebellious teenage hero I suppose, but not a hero in the real sense of the word.

 

The goal of the game is for the character to grow into the role as a hero. If the one you're currently playing doesn't have the fortitude for that, well, not everyone is cut out for it.

 

I don't think that, if you think it's really what your character would do, breaking down / going mad / giving up is a "bad" option. Long before the age of CRPGs, in the era of pencils and papers, I did this more than once -- when RPGs were truly "open ended." If that's what the story demanded, then that's what you did, and next week you rolled a new character and came up with some contrived reason to join the group..

[Daguy]

Hm, very good points.

 

I think '2' is the one my characters generally take, or '3' if they are destined for the Dark Brotherhood, though it changes by extent. Also, '1' is possible with roleplay thanks to companions. With Sexout, my characters often turn for love and 'healing' to Cass, Boone, or Veronica. Therapists are all well and good, but before them people relied on friends and family.

 

My struggle is often balancing the mental anguish that traumatic situations bring with the ablity to stay mentally sound and push on. I usually, if they are a little experianced, have them grimly hold onto what they set out to do, and then break down 'off-screen'. They will then occasionally think back on events or wake from nightmares.

 

If I ever play one character long enough they may get 'jaded' enough to just close their eyes, grit their teeth, and then just carry on afterwards. But damn they would be a hardass and tough to play. They would also risk becoming boring. =P

 

I do pencil and paper roleplaying too, and yeah, a few characters have been retired from watching their entire group get slaughtered and the like.

[prideslayer]

Another possible path I suppose is the sort of hollywoodized Vietnam Vet PTSD / schizophrenia. One moment you're walking along, the next you think you see the people that hurt you in every bush and around every corner. You go from slightly paranoid to hiding out for days to a full blown postal episode. Come back to normal a bit later with all the hand wringing and "oh shit what did I do.." anguish.

 

Could be fun..

[Daguy]

Actually... thats a damn amazing idea. It wouldn't fit my current couple of characters, but its certainly something I want to try now. Damn you. =P

[sen4mi]

*deep breath*

 

So.... ok... I have some opinions here. I want to make clear though that I am only expressing opinions here, and I will happily agree that people with conflicting opinions might be correct on topics where I am incorrect.

 

 

 

I have been raped, several times, in real life. Other people have had much worse experiences than I -- honestly, mine experiences were so much better than some people's real life experiences that it's embarassing that we use the same word "rape" to lump them together. But I was mildly injured in each incident -- and the time when I was preschool I still have the physical changes from, and the time when I was an adult not so much.

 

So you hopefully will never see any identifying information about me here or anywhere. I am not exactly "tramautized" in any dramatic sense but I am taking a "never again, not even close". My real life experiences were not fun. And, I am a product of our current society in how I think about sexual issues -- and I feel that this is not a good thing for me.

 

But you can see by my presence here that I am not opposed to thinking about rape. In fact, I am fascinated by it.

And I am sometimes outraged at the structure of our laws and of some of our institutions. There's an epidemic here and rather than encouraging discussion we ... no, this is a huge rant and I cannot do it justice here...

 

Please, no expressions of outrage about this -- just drop it. I do not want to talk about me, but I also do not want people to take my post here in the wrong light. So I am bending my personal rules here to compensate for my lack of ability to express the things I want to express.

 

First: everyone is different. Seriously. Everyone. Stereotypes only work when you are distant from the people you are stereotyping.

 

We do have many many things in common, of course, that's an essential aspect of role playing. Ironically, stereotypes mostly work when we do not see the things we have in common -- that's that "distance" that it's apparent accuracy gets based on.

 

But we also change our minds, especially when we have mixed feelings about things.

 

And, things sexual, where building friendships is a core part of your drives, and where it's so easy to be hurt, are very likely to give you mixed feelings.

Especially in our society where when considering sexual issues we value the opinions of people that are deliberately ignorant of the subject over the opinions of people that have good, healthy relationships.

A canonical example here would be catholic priesthood vs. married couples, but... no.. no ranting... I do not have enough time to do this topic justice

 

 

Anyways, if you feel you are playing an unrealistic character, you should perhaps consider that the character you are playing is a realistic character, and perhaps you are playing a developing character. But just because you made decisions one way does not mean that later on you will change your mind about those decisions.

 

For example, maybe you are enjoying a social setting, and everyone is sweet, and all of a sudden you find yourself losing the attention and interest of someone you enjoy and get along with because some jerk is pushing your boundaries and apparently intent on getting you pregnant.

And if the situation reminds you of something bad that you have lived through and which you promised yourself to avoid? "Pleased" would not be your only possible reaction here, I think. And this can get much worse if you do not want to think about the things it's reminding you of.

 

However, I doubt you will see deep relationship oriented conversations in an automated game any time soon. Conversation systems in current games are canned scripts. And for player defined relationship goals to be handled well by games I think we would need an information handling ability implemented in the game beyond the capacity of today's search engines.

[lolerzness]

This may be a bit OT but it still relates to this topic.

I once read a manga from FAKKU. I think it was made by Homunculus or Hisasi was it? It was about a guy falling in love and attached to his game avatar to the point that she became real and have left the virtual world like Quorra from Tron.

[thesapien]

I'd always imagined in Skyrim that my Dovahkiin has his/her worst experience right before and during the opening scene. Have you ever been beaten down, I mean, really beaten down to where your will to struggle no longer mattered? The physical pain, the feeling of helplessness, then to be dragged off to a public beheading at which point you see your end and it seems certain; how to deal? If it wasn't for the super-guy beheaded before my Dovakiin, the one who faced his end unbroken, I don't know... Then, starting out on his/her own into the land of Skyrim, being attacked by wolves and bandits... such things are made into no-big-deal by gamers who just don't know better. The people of Skyrim are hardened and made into super-people by the standards of the real life people populating my country.

 

I know, guys don't like to talk about it though. We prefer to sympathize with women who get raped rather than mention what it is like to be a man and to be attacked and beaten, not even able to protect yourself, and then somehow trying to carry on with your life as a man. Men are supposed to see it as a failure to learn from, not to dwell upon, and that is our only way forward. Perhaps it is the best way forward. How else is Dovahkiin going to help fight for Skyrim.

[GrimReaper]

I've read somewhere that the psychological impact from a lost brawl is very similar to the impact rape has for a woman. I don't really think that this is entirely true however, a rapist invades the privacy sphere - after all, I think there is nothing more private than your body and sex. A rapist takes all that away just for his own desire.

 

If you get beaten up no doubt you will get a very strong emotion of being helpless and humiliated, but your private sphere will remain intact. Now imagine on top of being beaten up you get raped (men get raped, too). I think this is a whole lot more to deal with than just losing a fight.

 

Another thing to take into account is the role a man has to play in society: strong, smart, always in control of the situation, solving problems on your own and so forth. Losing a fight basically means you actually fail to be a man because a lost fight means that you couldn't fulfill the role society expects you to play. And that's where I disagree with prideslayer - psychological problems are not something you can point your finger on. You can't say "because of situation x person y will develop behaviour z". It's much more complicated than that. For example, take the shower in the school that prideslayer used as an example. He said that boys with a small willy were made fun of. This alone will make a huge dent in your self-esteem. You are not really able to tell the consequences of this all, but for some people, the impact on their self-esteem may be so big that they won't be able to socialize like men who didn't make that experience. In other cases however, this experience might not even have any influence at all in that person's life.

 

In other words: Even if you fight Giant Radscorpions and take a bullet to the head, a situation where you absolutely lose control will most likely still have an impact on your psyche. It doesn't really get easier to endure nasty situations just because you already had a fair share of 'em. You can't really get used to things like pain. Being punched in the face will still hurt even if you already got punched in the face a hundred times before. The only thing that changes is that you know what pain to expect. Assuming that your nerves are still intact, of course.

[thesapien]

I wasn't equating rape with a lost brawl, nor was I talking about lost brawls. Getting into a stupid fight and losing is more stupid than anything else. I was referring to being assaulted. Boys/guys get into fights a lot, but it is not the same. One big difference is that there are unspoken rules even when fighting dirty, like not using lethal tactics. If someone gets really hurt, it's considered to had gone too far. But when you are attacked and don't understand why or know what is happening, the experience is very different. Still, I'm not equating it to rape because rape is a word that means something else, and I would like to keep it that way. However, I am still referring to something that could traumatize a person in a way that causes them to fear things like going outside and walking down the street; that is if they don't find a way to overcome it.

 

 

 

Personally, I've never quite experienced what I'm referring to. I've been put down by my father, but he didn't hold me down or beat me until I couldn't get back up. I've also been assaulted, twice, by people I didn't know or see coming who basically showed up behind me and attacked, but I quickly realized they were like those people who just get into bar fights, so no huge deal. Still hurt and injured my ego, but not enough to let some stupid bullies traumatize me. My most traumatizing experiences actually came from one, Mother Nature and hypothermia in a river with only my life-jacket keeping me alive, and two, a car accident that broke my back and crushed my intestine (without ever losing consciousness!) and the nerve pain that followed and lasted for a good year.

 

[thesapien]

Another thing to take into account is the role a man has to play in society: strong' date=' smart, always in control of the situation, solving problems on your own and so forth. Losing a fight basically means you actually fail to be a man because a lost fight means that you couldn't fulfill the role society expects you to play. And that's where I disagree with prideslayer - psychological problems are not something you can point your finger on. You can't say "because of situation x person y will develop behaviour z". It's much more complicated than that. For example, take the shower in the school that prideslayer used as an example. He said that boys with a small willy were made fun of. This alone will make a huge dent in your self-esteem. You are not really able to tell the consequences of this all, but for some people, the impact on their self-esteem may be so big that they won't be able to socialize like men who didn't make that experience. In other cases however, this experience might not even have any influence at all in that person's life.

 

In other words: Even if you fight Giant Radscorpions and take a bullet to the head, a situation where you absolutely lose control will most likely still have an impact on your psyche. It doesn't really get easier to endure nasty situations just because you already had a fair share of 'em. You can't really get used to things like pain. Being punched in the face will still hurt even if you already got punched in the face a hundred times before. The only thing that changes is that you know what pain to expect. Assuming that your nerves are still intact, of course.

[/quote']

 

I agree the above aspects are complicated. But I also think they are actually even more complicated than that. Pain, for one, has a lot to do with expectations, itself. It's why some people with the right doctors can have surgery without anesthetics and experience no pain, for example.

[thesapien]

Another possible path I suppose is the sort of hollywoodized Vietnam Vet PTSD / schizophrenia. One moment you're walking along' date=' the next you think you see the people that hurt you in every bush and around every corner. You go from slightly paranoid to hiding out for days to a full blown postal episode. Come back to normal a bit later with all the hand wringing and "oh shit what did I do.." anguish.

 

Could be fun..

[/quote']

 

Good one. I also like to pull an Anakiin Skywalker with some characters.

[prideslayer]

And that's where I disagree with prideslayer - psychological problems are not something you can point your finger on. You can't say "because of situation x person y will develop behaviour z". It's much more complicated than that. For example' date=' take the shower in the school that prideslayer used as an example. He said that boys with a small willy were made fun of. This alone will make a huge dent in your self-esteem. You are not really able to tell the consequences of this all, but for some people, the impact on their self-esteem may be so big that they won't be able to socialize like men who didn't make that experience. In other cases however, this experience might not even have any influence at all in that person's life.

[/quote']

 

We're actually in agreement, just using different words. My intention was to show that just because something traumatic for one person happened to you, that you are necessarily traumatized yourself. Some kids never "get over" that kind of treatment, and end up developing all kinds of psych problems. Others forget about it by the next class.

 

It has a lot more to do with their individual psych makeup. My point was that people in the wasteland will probably have, on average, a more resilient psyche than the average person today in reality, since their upbringing will be so much more raw.

 

In other words: Even if you fight Giant Radscorpions and take a bullet to the head, a situation where you absolutely lose control will most likely still have an impact on your psyche. It doesn't really get easier to endure nasty situations just because you already had a fair share of 'em. You can't really get used to things like pain. Being punched in the face will still hurt even if you already got punched in the face a hundred times before. The only thing that changes is that you know what pain to expect. Assuming that your nerves are still intact, of course.

 

I'm not sure why you've conflated psychological pain with physical pain here.

 

You can learn to ignore physical pain, and your psychological pain from the experience may have never existed to begin with.. depends on the person. Someone who steps into an MMA ring on a daily basis will probably respond to a beatdown in public (or even a rape) exactly the way these wacked out wastelanders do -- struggle, grit your teeth, and bear it while plotting your revenge.

 

In a "get naked or I won't help you" situation, chances of them being psychologically damaged is extremely unlikely IMHO. There is a certain attitude and psychological makeup to people who are consistently exposed to what an average person considers abuse, as well as with people who live by a simple "I don't give a shit" creedo.

 

I can't say how you (or anyone but me) would respond to a given situation with anything approaching certainty, but I can say pretty authoritatively that if I were presented with a situation that was simply "Show us your willy or eat this bullet" and there was really no alternative, you're gonna get the stiff one eye -- and proudly. I can't see such a situation really damaging me personally.

 

Which as the man said, is a different scenario from a beat down, and a different scenario from rape as well. Equating it to either one of those diminishes both.

[thesapien]

MMA fighters were on my mind, too. A trained fighter could hit a nonfigher's hand with their face and cause more lasting trauma to the nonfighter, most likely. Another example is someone like Jackie Chan who can go through life breaking nearly every bone in his body without lasting trauma while someone else will break one bone or strain a muscle resulting in chronic problems from their traumatic experience. Why do some people become disabled while others bounce back? This is no small question.

[prideslayer]

If you wanted to boil it down (always risky), I think it simply comes down to your expectations and readiness. People who get hurt for a living get into their line of work knowing they're going to get hurt. The physical pain isn't lessened, but they expect it, so they're psychologically prepared to deal with it before it happens.

 

I think a mistake is made when making assumptions about the background of the PC and of other characters in these games, when they are confronted with potentially traumatizing situations. The mistake is assuming that this is the first time this has happened to the PC (or the first time the PC has witnessed it), the first time the perpetrator has done it, and so on. There is always a first time, but many of the scenarios seem to be fairly commonplace.

 

Introducing a mod like Rapers into fallout for example, alters the entire world. In this new world, people are raped in the street, in broad daylight, all over the wasteland. One can assume that this has been going on for a while, and that it didn't just happen when some angry god said "Let there be brutalrapers.esp!" The kids on the street "grow up" seeing this. You and everyone around you grew up seeing it. It's happened to nearly every adult in the wasteland. So, if you're told to get naked in front of some guy, or give him a blowjob to get the key, are you going to be traumatized? Probably not.

 

OTOH if you introduce the tryouts, but not rapers, then THAT is the world you live in. One where slaves to the legion are routinely sexually abused. Stories of this from merchants are certain to have reached you before you are ever subjected to it yourself, so you should be mentally prepared before you arrive -- as prepared as you can be. Same with the Fiends and so on.

 

I may be harping on a point but I think it's important, in any attempt at rational roleplay, to keep this in mind. When you introduce a mod to your world, you sort of have to assume that the effects of that mod have always been there, and adjust the background, mental state, etc. of your character to reflect that.

[Daguy]

I see where you are coming from, and if I played them like that, yeah. I would probobly treat my less sheltered characters as jaded in regards to it all. However, I tend to play with mods like rapers on lowest settings and with stalkers off. I find the potential for combat rape and things in storylines/quests to lead to something, but when I roleplay I don't find that getting knocked to the floor and raped every time I visit a settlement is interesting to roleplay. It loses the novelty.

 

Same for Lovers and Oblivion. I play with Joburg and LandE off, and RaperS on lowest settings, unless i'm trying to set up a special scene like a gang-rape. I like sex and rape to be an element, and perhaps even a danger to my PCs, but I like it in a 'Game of Thrones' context rather than an outright porno context. I use mods like Tryout at the start or mid-way through a characters story as a dramatic point or way to 'change' them and make them more cut-throat or damaged. Story tools rather than being the story.

 

 

~Deleted what I previously put here, a segment of my Morrowind RP, since it is probobly inappoprate for General.~

[thesapien]

So, speaking about trauma for male and female characters, I found this statistic today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_suicide

The incidence of successful suicide is vastly higher among males than females among all age groups in most of the world. In the United States, the ratio varies between 3:1 to 10:1.

 

Has anyone ever suicided their character?

 

I don't remember ever really seriously considering it myself in RL, but I've been around it a lot.

[Kashked]

From that article one important point is this... "although reported suicide attempts are 3 times more common among females than males."

 

I've worked quite a bit within the psyciatric system, both with the "criminally insane" (mostly men) and the general psyciatric care (mostly women). My impression is this, and I think it is confirmed by academic studies, although I dont have any sources for this... Men with severe psyciatric trauma are much more likely to act out in other ways than women, turning violent towards others rather than themselves, while women more often hurt themselves. Suicide-attempts are often more along the lines of "a cry for help" or for attention among women. Anyone who seriously want to kill themselves will do it. In the end it isn't that hard, and anyone seriously wanting to kill themselves will succed. There are plenty of people who tries over and over again, and while I don't doubt that they feel that they want to kill themselves, not succeding by attempt 2 or 3 will most likely mean that they aren't truely trying.

 

As for role-playing in the context of the games represented on this site, I would say that this means that if you want to realisticly roleplay a traumatized woman in FNV (wheter you use the opening headshot or sexual slavery in Tryout or Sewerslave as the trauma) going into a selfdestructive circle would be a beliavable outcome, while a traumatized male character would be more likely to turn outright destructive. Now, for Skyrim I don't really think there exists the "tools" to roleplay a selfdetructive female character, no drugs, no prostitution etc.

Oblivion I don't know, having not played it for a very long time.

[Kashiwaba Tomoe]

I've had some real fun with stuff like that before Daguy.

 

Using the chainbeast mod, my female wizard started in Anvil, and suddenly found herself being abused (as happens in that mod).

 

Come about level nine, I returned to the city and utterly obliterated everyone that was not essential, minus a few that hid in time.

 

Then of course, there is Fallout 2 in The Den, trading sex to get Vic out.

I've always imagined that that should be MUCH more humiliating than it was set as being.

[Lurk3r]

First, I want to thank all of you. This kind of discourse is why I come to this site- I don't actually play any of the games (yet).

 

Unfortunately, my suggestion for solving this problem is pretty mechanical (and has thus pretty much been shot to pieces) but I'll say it anyway: You could attach a debuff for trauma to certain events (sexual assault, coercion, etc.). Whenever a character is victimized, you would gain the perk 'Traumatized' and suffer penalties to communication or other interactions, based on the event. You could get rid of the perk by talking it through with key NPCs for therapy or spending time coping/ confronting the experience using the wait command.

[prideslayer]

I think such a system could work Lurk3r, if taken to a higher level of complexity, to more closely (but still not accurately -- it's a game) reflect human complexity.

 

Twinks (not the gay kind, the RPG kind) aside, role playing is about dealing the hand you're dealt. If you roll a CHR:3 INT:3 character, you're not "role playing" if you're solving all the puzzles "with your own brain" or sweet talking people into giving you stuff.

 

So, the trick is integrating SPECIAL other data into the consequences of rape. Low charisma? Maybe the therapist doesn't even believe you. Low intelligence and perception? Maybe the therapist victimizes you some more (sexually or not). Higher than average stats can lead to a quicker recovery time. Repeated recoveries could lead to shortened automatic recovery.

 

Eventually 2nd tier perks could be made available only to characters that have been traumatized X times, such as becoming immune to it in the future, through a variety of "mental disorders" from plain acceptance, to extreme masochism (needing the abuse), or even "becoming the monster" where you suffer drawbacks if you don't victimize others.

 

I'm getting a bit long winded.. short version: mechanical solutions can work fine, if those playing accept they're playing the role the rolled, and nobody gets too hung up on the realism aspects.