Jump to content

Solving the 4-options dialogue system


Recommended Posts

As you all know, a 4-options dialogue system wouldn't really work well with 80% of the future story/functional mod. If you haven't figured them out already, here are some possible ways to overcome this technical constraint - if the F4 modding kit is indeed limited by that pitiful 4-options system, irredeemable by mods and plugins.

 

I don't know very much about technical stuff, maybe you'd have better ways than mine. Welcome to share.

 

If you don't think the 4-options system is a problem, you're welcomed to leave. This thread isn't going to be of much use to you anyways.

 

 

 

Method 1: the brutal method

 

Player dialogue options:

1. Options a-c and option "return to the last branch"

2. Options d-f and option "return to the last branch"

3. Empty

4. Empty

 

Press 1 (←), both the player and NPC don't talk, and options "a", "b", "c" and "return" appear after the screen shift (the process which the screen shifts between the player and NPC's faces).

Press 2 (→), both the player and NPC don't talk, and options "d", "e", "f" and "return" appear after the screen shift.

 

Options a-f are the real options for the player to choose, and the return option exists just so the player can browse the options in the other side(s).

 

If there are too much options (creative modders come up with dozens of possibilities), this method can be reused in the same conversation for as many times as they need.

 

Screen shift (I don't know an accurate term to describe it) is very likely a solvable problem in the future.

 

 

 

Method 2: the immersive way (categorization)

 

Player dialogue options:

1. Mock him

2. Help him

3. Ignore him

4. Empty

 

Press 1 (↑), show dialogue options

1. Hahaha you jerk deserve it all.

2. You're an old pitiful fool.

3. Wow, watching you suffer has made my day.

4. You're crying like a baby. That looks silly.

 

Press 2 (→), show dialogue options

1. I'll help you.

2. Look, you can actually do it this way, let me show you...

3. This is easy for me. Sure.

4. Haven't got anything else to do anyways. Sure, I'll help.

 

Press 3 (←), show dialogue options

1. I've got other things to do.

2. Get outta my way.

3. You waste my time.

4. I'm sorry, but I'm busy.

 

The options are just examples of what this method can do.

 

As you can see, this method categorizes certain dialogue options into one. Just as method 1, this method can be reused in the same conversation, like

 

1. Positive

2. Negative

 

Choosing 1, show options (still in category)

a. Express gratitude

b. Boast him

 

Choosing a, show options

i. Thanks.

ii. That helps, you're a genius.

 

Et cetera.

 

 

 

Mixed use of methods 1 and 2 is possible.

 

 

 

 

There are, however, a critical difficulty yet to be overcome. If multiple mods have added new dialogue options to characters' conversations, these 2 methods aren't gonna help much. To tackle this problem, a framework-resource-type mod can be made, adding numerous empty dialogue options to the dialogue trees, and categorize top-level vanilla dialogue options under one "vanilla options" category. Here's an example.

 

1. Vanilla options

2. Empty

3. Empty

4. Empty

 

Choosing 1 (↑), vanilla dialogues show up.

Choosing 2, 3, 4, four empty options show up.

Choosing these empty options, another 4 set of empty options show up, etc.

 

This works as a framework and resource for modders, and the empty options work as slots. If one modder chooses one slot and another chooses the same, a compatibility patch can be made by simply moving one of the two options to another slot. To specify the use, it can work like this, though in an much-less immersive way.

 

1. Vanilla options

2. Animation

3. Immersion

4. Special (uncategorized)

 

Choosing 2,

a. Dance

b. Sex

c. Specific (uncategorized)

d. empty

And a, b, c lead to empty slots, empty slots lead to another empty slots again etc.

 

Choosing 3,

a. Needs

b. Emotions

(Don't play immersion mods much, don't have a clear idea of that)

 

 

These are my suggestions in solving this problem.

 

Please let me know if someone has already found a solution to this, I haven't been paying much attention to the modding community lately.

Link to comment
Guest MonsterFish

I was thinking about this a few days ago, and thought of the problem that occurs when you want to say, like in Skyrim, make a follower wear a set of armour (Say, you have the option to make them wear Leather, Iron, Daedric... but this time it's in FO so it'd be leather, metal, synth etc.). Now with the 4 dialogue option you can make them wear a set of armor and then... wha? You can go right to go to the next page and then left to go to the previous page and up to exit the dialogue and then the bottom to equip them with the selected armour. Granted, this could work but imagine I want all of my followers to wear one selected armour set but that armour set is the last one or the one with the most lefts or rights. I don't want to go through all my followers and selected "Choose armour" then right, right, right, right, right, down. Next follower. It gets tedious and if like in Skyrim there's the problem of them re-equipping whatever armour just cus then it's gonna be a real bitch. I should note that in Skyrim you could equip the followers with the armour even if the player didn't have it.

 

I can only hope that someone, somewhere will allow a system where more than 4 dialogue options are available.

Link to comment

I was thinking about this a few days ago, and thought of the problem that occurs when you want to say, like in Skyrim, make a follower wear a set of armour (Say, you have the option to make them wear Leather, Iron, Daedric... but this time it's in FO so it'd be leather, metal, synth etc.). Now with the 4 dialogue option you can make them wear a set of armor and then... wha? You can go right to go to the next page and then left to go to the previous page and up to exit the dialogue and then the bottom to equip them with the selected armour. Granted, this could work but imagine I want all of my followers to wear one selected armour set but that armour set is the last one or the one with the most lefts or rights. I don't want to go through all my followers and selected "Choose armour" then right, right, right, right, right, down. Next follower. It gets tedious and if like in Skyrim there's the problem of them re-equipping whatever armour just cus then it's gonna be a real bitch. I should note that in Skyrim you could equip the followers with the armour even if the player didn't have it.

 

I can only hope that someone, somewhere will allow a system where more than 4 dialogue options are available.

 

 

Your problem can be solved by MCM menu, but a lot of mods wouldn't work well with it, especially the ones that only make sense with conversation.

Link to comment
Guest MonsterFish

 

Your problem can be solved by MCM menu, but a lot of mods wouldn't work well with it, especially the ones that only make sense with conversation.

 

I am a person that prefers immersion and I doubt that I'm the only one that does the same. I'm a person that looks at the MCM menu once at the start of the game and maybe again if a new mod is installed unless a mod requires constant attention like SlaveTats. I don't like to look at the MCM unless I have to, muh immersions.

 

Plus, what happens when there are multiple mods installed? Say one mod modifies the bottom arrow so that it will display the current statistics (Health, Relationship Rank etc.) of a follower and another to display what the followers likes and dislikes are, which one takes priority? I'm going to guess whichever one is lower in the load priority. So whenever I want to switch between them I have to switch off Fallout and change priorities? Yeah, no that shit aint gonna fly.

 

So what if we introduce it so that the bottom is a "mod" option. But still you have that issue of pressing down, right, right, right, right, right, until you come to the option you want and then down since there's likely to be more than 4 mods. Again, same problem. MCM could easily fix it but I along with a lot of other people prefer an immersive 'Hey, what exactly do you like doing?' than pressing esc to go into MCM. You could possibly make an item for the Pipboy and select it in there, it's an in-game object so it doens't break the in-game immersion. But say you have 30 mods that all add something. Say one tracks the followers position, another does yada yada yada. I now have 30+ objects in my inventory that I constantly have to scroll through to find what I want. I already have trouble finding a holotape or a note.

 

I think Bethesda weren't thinking hard enough when they came to this 4 dialogue option epiphany.

Link to comment

Maybe I should make a correction. "Modding kit" instead of the engine.

 

F4 runs with the 4-options-with-arrows system, so I doubt adding a fifth option in the same branch would work. After all, there are only 4 arrows (slots).

 

Maybe things will be different when the kit is out. For now, all we can do is speculation.

Link to comment

What?! Add more choices and make things complicated for console gamers? That's not how Bethesda does business anymore! Even if the same system was proven highly unpopular in a different game. They can make it work because they're Bethesda, damnit! Or how so many people are reacting.

 

A system similar to the one in past games (you select from a list of topics) would be great. Having those choices lead to different outcomes would be better, but that's not a function of the dialogue system per se.

Link to comment

The first time I saw one of the dialogue tweaking mods that are now the top downloads at Nexus I thought that some of them will be required by most of the mods that will be created in the future. I'm not going to be surprised if such functionality is included in the first Unofficial FO4 Patch whenever it gets released.

Link to comment

The main problem IS trying to reducing player dialog options into negative/positive/[sARCASM]/etc no matter what dialog it must be. Sometimes even 4 options is overkill. 

Old Fallout (1-2) was good because dialogs were straight to business. And roleplay wasn't ruined because sometimes you must act tough or must comply somehow. "Humorous" dialogs got it's place, it's not nearly everywhere [sARCASM]. Bethesda (and partly Obisidian) lost it and just slapped whatever they can come up with. And you just playing by their rules. 

And don't forget that different dialogs must lead to different NPC reactions because otherwise immersion and roleplay will not work.

 

You can't do a thing against FO4 dialog system no matter how much strings you throw into these 4 options.

Link to comment

Too complicated

 

Just an extra key to troggle a list of dialogue will be enough

 

Maybe the Z key

 

 

Didn't think of that. Good suggestion!

 

One hotkey for each functionality dialogue mod, using a hotkey framework resource that is configurable in MCM menu. Convenient and comprehensive indeed.

Link to comment

What?! Add more choices and make things complicated for console gamers? That's not how Bethesda does business anymore! Even if the same system was proven highly unpopular in a different game. They can make it work because they're Bethesda, damnit! Or how so many people are reacting.

 

A system similar to the one in past games (you select from a list of topics) would be great. Having those choices lead to different outcomes would be better, but that's not a function of the dialogue system per se.

Hey ! long time console player here (except for Beth games  for the benefits of modding) and I strongly disagree :D

 

But yeah unluckily this is probably the way Beth sees console players (along with a large part of the industry): they confuse people wanting to have a game that is supposed to work -- Beth never really managed that in console anyway-- with dumbing down the  damn thing. And dialog system did not need fixing even less so being fixed with a  very poor copy of the Bioware system (which was never limited to 4 options and had "more..." option  to open up the dialog tree breadth)

sometime I wonder if they did that to just screw certain kind  of mods that are more prone to  add dialog options (namely the ones found in this forum) but they probably just though it was a good idea given that they wanted obviously to rely less on dialog and more on shooting people : they did a good job on improving that but definitely the dialog part for character building went down the  gutter for it.

 

For the conversation related to OP I think a mix between the 2 (categorization and some direct quotes with a "more...") would make sense. For that I point again to Bioware system:

  - few direct answers on the initial circle (for example the typical "Yes/No" answers)

  - then items for going more in depth should the player need it  

In Bioware games it is typically the right part for short dialogs and then the left part usually open up the dialog (things like "tell me more about ...")

This allow to skip quickly when you do not care (yes I accept your stupid fetch quest, lets move on) or do something else when you fell like it (I really want to know more about this person/mission or want to do something silly)

The choice wheel inherently is not bad and if it is well structured it allows to quickly identify what an answer can lead to and make quick choices when in an hurry (who never skipped dialog because it was the 200th time they had such dialog ?) and having directly available "quickly finish the dialog" is a huge advantage for it no matter what is your control scheme. Of course this advantage quickly lose its value if there's no more depth than 4 choices which most of the case are only 2 "choices": either accept the quest or postpone your acceptance to the next time you speak with this NPC (unless of course said NPC dialog is changed during a quest blocking you to accept this initial quest until the other quest completion) 

Link to comment

There is a conversation in the vanilla game that uses a "more options" choice. Tiny, tiny Railroad spoiler:

 

 

 

When choosing your call sign for the Railroad you have some choices to pick from and one choice for more options. If you pick it your character asks Des if she has any recommendations and gets the reply that this isn't how it works, you shouldn't pick from a list of options but instead should come up with your own. You then get more options and in the end you... well, pick from a list of options... :D

 

 

 

Anyway, that is at least one moment in the game where you already have more than four choices. I can't remember if you can go back to the first selection after looking at the second (I always pick one from the second set) but there is a way built-in to the game to go beyond four.

Link to comment

There is a conversation in the vanilla game that uses a "more options" choice. Tiny, tiny Railroad spoiler:

 

 

 

When choosing your call sign for the Railroad you have some choices to pick from and one choice for more options. If you pick it your character asks Des if she has any recommendations and gets the reply that this isn't how it works, you shouldn't pick from a list of options but instead should come up with your own. You then get more options and in the end you... well, pick from a list of options... :D

 

 

 

Anyway, that is at least one moment in the game where you already have more than four choices. I can't remember if you can go back to the first selection after looking at the second (I always pick one from the second set) but there is a way built-in to the game to go beyond four.

 

That either means the 4-options system is hard-coded or Beth wasn't going to make an exceptional case that isn't 4-options hard-coded.

 

Either way, it can be solved.

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...