Who will you fight for in a Total World War?

[Anbeegod]

 

 

What I was trying to say is that, regardless of the political situation of the empire after Red Ring, the empire was impossible to defeat AD. Continuing the war means risking the empire's total collapse, and even the chance that the empire can succeed in the invasion to AD is low itself. It's a lost cause, all that the emperor could do is to minimize the loss.

 

Continue the war, the legion will lose more men, and will very likely lose anyways, thus the empire will be completely destroyed this time by AD, rebellions/warlords, or An-Xileel.

 

Cease the war, at least the empire can survive and gain its chance. Losing Hammerfell and the Thalmor infiltrates the empire, doesn't seem worse than losing the entire empire and have it ruled by chaos. What happened later doesn't matter, the emperor made the right decision at the moment.

 

Yet the Empire had already defeated the elves in Cyrodiil. Their only other remaining forces were being fought to a standstill by a country which had been weakened over the centuries by internal political strife coupled with dependence on the Legions for protection. Justifying the Empire's decision to sign the WGC out of "pragmatism" is a poor excuse since the AD had effectively lost the bulk of their military strength in Cyrodiil while simultaneously being worn out by the Redguards.

 

Besides, signing the WGC did not stop corsairs from sacking Wayrest, nor quell the chaos throughout Cyrodiil following the Great War.

 

Also, I haven't come across any indication that the Argonians have an interest in attacking Cyrodiil.

 

The empire doesn't know how much force would be remaining in the AD territory, nor do I think AD would be foolish enough to send 95% of their men off to the imperial territory. Also, AD has the advantage of homefront.

 

An-Xileel is hostile to the empire, and the empire is no longer as powerful as it could be, with most of its men leaving Cyrodiil. That's enough for them to seize the opportunity to expand their power.

[FauxFurry]

The Dovahkiin is of dragon blood and the hero(ine) of the realm. That in itself gives her/him a better claim to the throne than any other individual or faction on Tamriel. Too bad that there is no Amulet of Kings in Skyrim to try on in front of the two warring factions as a subtle way of staking one's claim to the title of Empress/Emperor.

[Guest Comrade DR. MAHUJ DIK]

If one looks into the lore, those of dragonblood are always the heir to the ruby throne. I I was the dragonborn I would taker over, if not I would ally myself to it. Every time someone without dragonblood rules the empire Nirn goes to shit.

[Anbeegod]

If one looks into the lore, those of dragonblood are always the heir to the ruby throne. I I was the dragonborn I would taker over, if not I would ally myself to it. Every time someone without dragonblood rules the empire Nirn goes to shit.

 

Some would say Tamriel no longer need a dragonborn emperor because Akatosh is protecting Nirn himself now. I say, dragon blood means more than that barrier. The throne is made for the dragonborns.

[Guest Comrade DR. MAHUJ DIK]

 

If one looks into the lore, those of dragonblood are always the heir to the ruby throne. I I was the dragonborn I would taker over, if not I would ally myself to it. Every time someone without dragonblood rules the empire Nirn goes to shit.

 

Some would say Tamriel no longer need a dragonborn emperor because Akatosh is protecting Nirn himself now. I say, dragon blood means more than that barrier. The throne is made for the dragonborns.

 

 

that bullshit. Hermaeus Mora manifested himself in dragonborn without being summoned,alduin appeared on the middle of the cycle instead of the end, manimarco became a god in oblivion (That I understand as a DAEDRA) and created the shadow of the revenant, something is fucking this cycle and making stuff that shouldnt happen happen. I hope they talk about it on the next game, saying that the broken lore was being caused by something would be an awesome excuse for some stuff that happened in skyrim time.

[Arhon]

I would ally myself with Alduin and save me the pain of conquering the whole of Tamriel.

[Guest]

The empire doesn't know how much force would be remaining in the AD territory, nor do I think AD would be foolish enough to send 95% of their men off to the imperial territory. 

 

First, they already did send a large chunk of their soldiers to Cyrodiil.  And all of them were slaughtered in the Battle of Red Ring.

 

Secondly, the AD lacked the manpower to continue their campaign in Cyrodiil and subdue Hammerfell.  They were in a very weak position at the time, hence their signing of the WGC and 2nd Treaty of Stros M'Kai.   

 

Also, AD has the advantage of homefront.

 

 

When did we start discussing an Imperial invasion of the AD?

 

An-Xileel is hostile to the empire, and the empire is no longer as powerful as it could be, with most of its men leaving Cyrodiil. That's enough for them to seize the opportunity to expand their power.

 

But where is this stated?  What is your source for this information?

[Anbeegod]

If an imperial invasion to AD isn't what we're discussing, what else can make the empire actually "win" the war? The empire is unable to conquer AD, and so isn't AD after Red Ring. Hence, the concordat.

 

An-Xileel defies imperial reign in Black Marsh, and the empire doesn't want to give the claim to the marsh up. Maybe that's in UESP or ES Wiki.

[Guest]

If an imperial invasion to AD isn't what we're discussing, what else can make the empire actually "win" the war? The empire is unable to conquer AD, and so isn't AD after Red Ring. Hence, the concordat.

 

Then why sign such a lopsided treaty if the AD was not in a position to threaten the Empire?

 

An-Xileel defies imperial reign in Black Marsh, and the empire doesn't want to give the claim to the marsh up. Maybe that's in UESP or ES Wiki.

 

Until you provide a link which supports your claim that the An-Xileel want to attack Cyrodiil and/or vice-versa, this point is null.

[Anbeegod]

 

If an imperial invasion to AD isn't what we're discussing, what else can make the empire actually "win" the war? The empire is unable to conquer AD, and so isn't AD after Red Ring. Hence, the concordat.

 

Then why sign such a lopsided treaty if the AD was not in a position to threaten the Empire?

 

An-Xileel defies imperial reign in Black Marsh, and the empire doesn't want to give the claim to the marsh up. Maybe that's in UESP or ES Wiki.

 

Until you provide a link which supports your claim that the An-Xileel want to attack Cyrodiil and/or vice-versa, this point is null.

 

 

 

The empire didn't know the actual strength of AD and couldn't estimate its limit. If AD still has force in their land that could assault the remaining imperial force, the empire will truly be defeated. It isn't sensible that the emperor knows everything AD's got, as if it's so easy to have spies collect info in Alinor.

 

 

 

According to the Imperial perspective, the An-Xileel "were entirely nativistic in their views, interested only in purging the former colonial influences and returning Black Marsh to whatever state they imagined it had been in before it was ruled by foreign powers."^[2]

^{(http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/An-Xileel)}

 

An-Xileel hates to have the empire colonize the Argonian land again. What better way do they have that can end the possibilities of centuries of enslavement (or so they might believe) by the imperials and Dunmers, once and for all?

 

An-Xileel had already led the Argonians to crush the Daedra in their land during the OC. Aside from the fact that the battles against the Daedra were in their homeland, it's a proof of the united Argonians' strength. If An-Xileel had the intention, undoing the last of the imperial legion wouldn't be any harder than kicking Dagon's force out. Regardless of An-Xileel's decision in conquering Cyrodiil or not while the empire is greatly weakened, the emperor must put this into account. Ending the war quickly can ensure that the legion can put more attention to An-Xileel's possible threat, and protect its border.

 

An-Xileel, and the Argonians, have the strength, the guts, the intention, and the hatred.

[CGi]

None of the vote options tickles my fancy.

My Khajiit dragonborn would rally to Elsweyr, kill the Mane who not only bowed before the Thalmor but even let them do with their country as they see fit, starting with splitting it up again. Yes, the Thalmor restored the old countries after the Empire united them but for what's to come a united Elsweyr is needed.
Then call for all Khajiit to return home and prepare for what's sure to come, which would be that Thalmor act all high and mighty, abusing all Khajiit in the process which would lead to the death of all Thalmor in Elsweyr and the following march to the Thalmors home (forgot the name ^^).

There everyone who posses more magic then what's needed to start a small fire will be killed together with the whole upper and middle class.

Afterwards try to ally with the Argonians (Beast races need to stick together, you know? ^^) and then marsh for the Empire so they don't start thinking they will rule over Elsweyr or try to rule over the Black Marshes any time soon again.

 

 

There ya go. Beast races world domination. 

[Kain82]

As Dragonborn I would unite Skyrim under my banner.  First I'd hire the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate Ulfric and Tullius.  Then I would use my messiah like status to rally both Imperials and Stormcloaks to drive out the Dominion.  Then I'd hire the DB again and assassinate Mede II.  Then after a the funeral, I would be crowned Emperor and return to Cyrodiil.  

 

I really wished there was a third path in the civil war, one where I can unite Skyrim.

[Guest]

 

 

The empire didn't know the actual strength of AD and couldn't estimate its limit. If AD still has force in their land that could assault the remaining imperial force, the empire will truly be defeated. It isn't sensible that the emperor knows everything AD's got, as if it's so easy to have spies collect info in Alinor.

 

 

Yet the fact that the AD did not send additional reinforcements to Cyrodiil after the BoRR should be a strong indicator that they lacked the merpower to defeat the Empire once and for all, no?  

 

And for the record, I find it highly doubtful that an organization as large as the Empire does not employ covert assets in foreign nations.  

 

According to the Imperial perspective, the An-Xileel "were entirely nativistic in their views, interested only in purging the former colonial influences and returning Black Marsh to whatever state they imagined it had been in before it was ruled by foreign powers."^[2]

^{(http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/An-Xileel)}

 

An-Xileel hates to have the empire colonize the Argonian land again. What better way do they have that can end the possibilities of centuries of enslavement (or so they might believe) by the imperials and Dunmers, once and for all?

 

An-Xileel had already led the Argonians to crush the Daedra in their land during the OC. Aside from the fact that the battles against the Daedra were in their homeland, it's a proof of the united Argonians' strength. If An-Xileel had the intention, undoing the last of the imperial legion wouldn't be any harder than kicking Dagon's force out. Regardless of An-Xileel's decision in conquering Cyrodiil or not while the empire is greatly weakened, the emperor must put this into account. Ending the war quickly can ensure that the legion can put more attention to An-Xileel's possible threat, and protect its border.

 

An-Xileel, and the Argonians, have the strength, the guts, the intention, and the hatred.

 

Wanting to purge a nation of outside influences does not equal an intent to invade another nation.  

 

Besides, you overestimate the strength of the Argonians.  Their victories against the Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis were the result of the Hist taking control of the populace and using them as mindless drones.  Furthermore, their only known attempt at invading a foreign country went relatively poorly since the Dunmer were able to drive them out despite being weakened by the events of the Red Year.

[Anbeegod]

The emperor wouldn't really want to wait until he actually sees the AD reinforcement, isn't it?

 

Dispatching spies is one thing, having them collect and send back info is another. I doubt a nation like AD would be easily penetrable, especially after the epic failure of the Blades.

 

 

At any event, I've begun to realize the whole scope has derived from the Stormcloaks vs empire thing to this. I don't actually like the empire and would gladly see the entire Mede house fall (with a better ruler like the Dragonborn rise), but the Stormcloaks is definitely a no-no. Immature motivation, ambitious yet selfish leader, and racist actions. If the "Thalmor wants to destroy the world" thing is just nonsense without any base, the Stormcloaks would actually in time prove to be worse than the Thalmor and the Elder Council combined.

[Guest]

Immature motivation, ambitious yet selfish leader,

 

There is nothing wrong with wishing to secede from an Empire that has proven itself incapable of providing for the safety and security of its citizens.

 

 

. . . and racist actions.

 

Citation needed.

 

 If the "Thalmor wants to destroy the world" thing is just nonsense without any base, the Stormcloaks would actually in time prove to be worse than the Thalmor and the Elder Council combined.

 

If you want to believe that a group of Nordic separatists is a greater threat to Tamriel than:

1. A cult of fanatics that wield vast amounts of military and political power . . .
2. A ruling council of corrupt noblemen who orchestrate a conspiracy which can very well lead to a bloody war of succession that makes the Stormcloak Rebellion look like a bar brawl . . .

. . . That's your prerogative.  

[GimmeBACON]

Just going to throw this out there; Ulfric is a zealous xenophobe, not a racist. He doesn't actively have his people discriminate against or kill other races, he's just more focused on protecting the rights of "the sons and daughters of Skyrim" then everybody else. I will admit there are racists among the ranks, but that doesn't make the whole faction bad. If the game had a definitive ending where Ulfric had all Dunmer, Argonians, etc either shipped away or killled, that would be an act of racism. 

 

It's a thin line in some peoples eyes, but xenophobia=/=racism.

[Anbeegod]

 

Immature motivation, ambitious yet selfish leader,

 

There is nothing wrong with wishing to secede from an Empire that has proven itself incapable of providing for the safety and security of its citizens.

 

 

. . . and racist actions.

 

Citation needed.

 

 If the "Thalmor wants to destroy the world" thing is just nonsense without any base, the Stormcloaks would actually in time prove to be worse than the Thalmor and the Elder Council combined.

 

If you want to believe that a group of Nordic separatists is a greater threat to Tamriel than:

1. A cult of fanatics that wield vast amounts of military and political power . . .
2. A ruling council of corrupt noblemen who orchestrate a conspiracy which can very well lead to a bloody war of succession that makes the Stormcloak Rebellion look like a bar brawl . . .

. . . That's your prerogative.  

 

 

Please read one of my previous posts, you'll see the empire is actually better for Skyrim than the Stormcloaks, to both its people and governance in terms of economy and culture etc. If you want more explanation, I hope I can answer.

 

Being bad is a different concept with being powerful and a threat. Potema is definitely no match to Sheogorath in combat, but it's obvious that Potema has done more harm than Sheogorath exponentially, and is obviously a greater threat to Solitude than the latter.

 

The Stormcloaks might not be a threat to most of Tamriel for the time being, but that is irrelevant to how morally/ethically correct they are.

 

 

Just going to throw this out there; Ulfric is a zealous xenophobe, not a racist. He doesn't actively have his people discriminate against or kill other races, he's just more focused on protecting the rights of "the sons and daughters of Skyrim" then everybody else. I will admit there are racists among the ranks, but that doesn't make the whole faction bad. If the game had a definitive ending where Ulfric had all Dunmer, Argonians, etc either shipped away or killled, that would be an act of racism. 

 

It's a thin line in some peoples eyes, but xenophobia=/=racism.

 

Except Ulfric Stormcloak forced/made all Dunmer and Argonian individuals/families to live in a slum, imposing the policy of ethnic separation. This is an act of racism, rather than simply being xenophobic. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" is nationalism, and extreme nationalism will inevitably become racism. If you treat individuals differently simply out of their ethnicity instead of their ability/mind, that is racism. No grey areas in this matter.

 

Stormcloak racism is mostly seen in Markarth and Windhelm. Winterhold is the one that is more xenophobic than racist. Xenophobic and racism are fundamentally different, but are "seemingly" similar.

[GimmeBACON]

 

Just going to throw this out there; Ulfric is a zealous xenophobe, not a racist. He doesn't actively have his people discriminate against or kill other races, he's just more focused on protecting the rights of "the sons and daughters of Skyrim" then everybody else. I will admit there are racists among the ranks, but that doesn't make the whole faction bad. If the game had a definitive ending where Ulfric had all Dunmer, Argonians, etc either shipped away or killled, that would be an act of racism. 

 

It's a thin line in some peoples eyes, but xenophobia=/=racism.

 

Except Ulfric Stormcloak forced/made all Dunmer and Argonian individuals/families to live in a slum, imposing the policy of ethnic separation. This is an act of racism, rather than simply being xenophobic. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" is nationalism, and extreme nationalism will inevitably become racism. If you treat individuals differently simply out of their ethnicity instead of their ability/mind, that is racism. No grey areas in this matter.

 

Stormcloak racism is mostly seen in Markarth and Windhelm. Winterhold is the one that is more xenophobic than racist. Xenophobic and racism are fundamentally different, but are "seemingly" similar.

 

The elves are not violently persecuted, but the local Nords are suspicious and outwardly xenophobic, and Ulfric Stormcloak turns a blind eye to their plight.

Pretty accurate statement. Ulfric's father gave them the area, he just didn't care to put funding into making the Grey Quarters or the docks better. Foreigners came in droves to their country and were homeless and poor, squatters who made the areas slums; sure it'd be better to have the areas cleaned up, but the area could just as easily be cleaned up by the Dunmer and Argonians that live there instead of them expecting others to do the work for them.

 

It's like if you live in an impoverish neighborhood because it's what you can afford, you can deal with your home being crap, or you can make it better for yourself. It's when the community accepts that their role is that of the lesser that they actually become it.

 

I don't deny there are racists among the Stormcloaks, but, I'd bet there are racists among every faction, it's the fact that it's evident in Skyrim that paints them as bad guys.

[adder33]

My last character being a succubus, who became a werewolf, cured herself and is going to be a vampire, I'll vote for "I'll conquer myself" and ally with my friends from Oblivion... at least if I need allies besides the Volkihar clan, the Dark Brotherhood, the Skyrim Thieves Guild and my slaves from the imperial army in Skyrim including my lover Elisef (Sex lab amorous adventure installed)...