New parts or new computer ?

stilz · September 20, 2015

EDIT 2 :

2nd 10min gameplay with setting same as before + shadows high

indoor 120-90fps (but there was barely any shadow to see)

outdoor 55-30fps

So Im seeing two things here -

Drastic improvement in framerate.

Drastic increase in temps.

I did some reading before work today and the GTX660's Temperature ceiling is 97c (not as high as I thought, if this is a 4gb card its an "OEM" reference board, putting the higher end GK104-200 core in it like a 660Ti I think... I was assuming a GK106 so that would be why. this would also place the core clock at closer to or at 900mhz like yours is where the 106 would be 980mhz or higher) so the card is throttling itself at 95c. Even with poor airflow the card should not be staying consistently that warm. I would expect something similar to your first posts where its fluctuating between 80 and 95.

The temp increase at idle is due to the fact the card is running 900mhz even when not under load now instead of throttling back to 405 like it was on "adaptiv" mode. You can see in your screenshot where the card throttles itself to 405mhz in relation to temperatures -

*There is one thing in this capture that worries me* - Where it says Luftertachometer its reading 0 RPM. This would indicate the fan is not spinning. If there is not much noise increase at 100% fan vs "Auto" its possible the fan is not functioning properly or working at all. This is bad . Not sure why I didnt catch this sooner. Look in the case at the fan on the GPU and make sure you can see it spinning!

If the fan is not spinning this would be the source of the heat/performance issues and I would not recommend placing the card under stress until you either get it warrantied/replaced or buy a new GPU. I suppose you could get an aftermarket cooler for the card but in my opinion thats more trouble than the 660 is worth at this point.

Theres a small chance its power delivery issues like AuronXCZE said but I would expect the card to be unstable if that was the problem. Display driver crashes, computer restarts/BSOD playing games etc. and not consistent overheating. What brand and rating is your Power supply? There should be a sticker on the side of the unit that says what it is. You never know and its worth checking

Adalgar · September 20, 2015

Have you maybe changed settings in Nvidia Control Panel -> Manage 3D settings -> Global Settings? Settings like Antialising and such? If so, restore to default.

Rayblue · September 21, 2015

In the background there are only 2 programms running ->

1. NMM

2. McAfee

2. I hate antivirus utilities -- like Mcafee and Norton/Symantec -- that were once great but have become deadweight in recent years, eating up a lot of resources and processing like popcorn. Lighter antivirus utilities such as Avira and Avast don't impact performance but still keep you protected.

jessica91 · September 21, 2015

Hallo guys and thanks for your posts !

Im working from 7am till 7pm so cant be very active

@auron :it is a 630w termaltake berlin power supply. On other "forums" they said its a very bad supply and i should buy (when i buy a new card and some other stuff) a new supply.

@stilz : When i dont do much on the computer its an "ok" noise level, its not loud but u can hear it. But when i play skyrim its getting very loud so i think it works even its not shown in the chart.

@adalgar : yeah i did some changes but only in global :

Sorry for beeing in german

1st : http://prntscr.com/8iwop6 aus = off / ein = on / maximale leistung = max. power / hohe = high

2nd : http://prntscr.com/8iwp5o

Skyrim itself has "use global settings"

@rayblue : yeah and the worst thing about it is probably that its McAfee. Everyone says that McAfee is bad in nearly all aspects but the license runs out in november.

Im definitely getting another one.

AuronXCZE · September 21, 2015

Hallo guys and thanks for your posts !

Im working from 7am till 7pm so cant be very active

@auron :it is a 630w termaltake berlin power supply. On other "forums" they said its a very bad supply and i should buy (when i buy a new card and some other stuff) a new supply.

@stilz : When i dont do much on the computer its an "ok" noise level, its not loud but u can hear it. But when i play skyrim its getting very loud so i think it works even its not shown in the chart.

@adalgar : yeah i did some changes but only in global :

Sorry for beeing in german

1st : http://prntscr.com/8iwop6 aus = off / ein = on / maximale leistung = max. power / hohe = high

2nd : http://prntscr.com/8iwp5o

Skyrim itself has "use global settings"

@rayblue : yeah and the worst thing about it is probably that its McAfee. Everyone says that McAfee is bad in nearly all aspects but the license runs out in november.

Im definitely getting another one.

Dont envy you for the 12hours shifts xD well, i really hope you get that sorted out with minimal money loss, kinda sucks to be in that position, least i would try is to uninstall McAfee or hows called and get something like Avast (its actually the only AV i know that is made with gaming in mind)

stilz · September 22, 2015

That power supply is 80plus certified so its probably fine. Not as good as you could have, and you can certainly get far better for fairly cheap now but it should be ok. That certification means it has to be able to produce its advertised power output within temperature spec at 80% efficiency or better at all load levels. It could be less efficient now due to component aging or if its been put under high stress for long periods but i doubt its anything to worry about. One thing most people still dont seem to realize is there are very few companies that actually make power supplies. Just as an example the majority of the time the difference between companies like XFX and Corsair PSU's is literally the sticker and the unit housing. People also REALLY overestimate what power supply is adequate for their system. Most quality units in the 580w to 750w range are still enough for most systems today, especially if you are not overclocking or running water pumps etc. You can certainly buy a new one if you are not comfortable with the one you own.

After working through this now I am comfortable recommending some stuff

1.) New GPU - It should not be that hot even with poor airflow. It also doesnt seem like setting 100% fan helps cool it any based on what you said.

I thought it was ok based on some assumptions I made about it but I was wrong, sorry . Seems like there is definitely something wrong with the card. Could be a huge number of things as well (bad sensors, poorly seated heat sink, power delivery circuits, the GK104 chip itself etc.). The thermal throttling I pointed out is killing frame rate it would seem.

For now you can try leaving the side of the case off and if you have a small desk fan or floor fan you can set that so its pointed into the case and see if temps get better. I would definitely double check the fins under the plastic shroud on the heatsink to make sure theyre not plugged (but you said its been doing this since it was new?). On the off chance it drops your temperatures a lot you may be able to just skip to #2.

2.) Get some case fans, at least an exhaust fan for the back of the case.

3.) Get rid of McAfee ASAP. Its a memory hog in addition to what everyone else has already said. It probably is hurting performance a little. (I can pretty confidently say this isnt causing the overheating issue though )

If you decide to go for a GPU

For 1080p I can wholeheartedly recommend a GTX970 or R9 390. Both of these cards should be plenty powerful for 1080p at 60hz even with lots of mods (within reason). Just keep in mind there are parts of the game (Like in Solitude looking from the Winking Skeever in the direction of the market square) that no matter what kind of system you have framerate will suffer with ENB, lighting and texture mods running.

The 970 only has 3.5gb of "usable" VRAM so if you really want to run lots of 4k or better texture mods Id go for the 390. My game has a large amount of 2k texture mods with some 4k mixed in here and there and i barely get over 2.5gb VRAM usage at 1080p, just keep that in mind. Also make sure if you go for the 970 you get a regular one, not one specified for Mini-ITX cases. The "normal" card has stronger power delivery and better cooling.

Sorry for the stupid long posts Ive been boring everyone with, But I like to get a good deal of information about a problem. :blush:

If I am unclear about anything or not understanding something please tell me.

Adalgar · September 22, 2015

Hallo guys and thanks for your posts !

Im working from 7am till 7pm so cant be very active

@auron :it is a 630w termaltake berlin power supply. On other "forums" they said its a very bad supply and i should buy (when i buy a new card and some other stuff) a new supply.

@stilz : When i dont do much on the computer its an "ok" noise level, its not loud but u can hear it. But when i play skyrim its getting very loud so i think it works even its not shown in the chart.

@adalgar : yeah i did some changes but only in global :

Sorry for beeing in german

1st : http://prntscr.com/8iwop6 aus = off / ein = on / maximale leistung = max. power / hohe = high

2nd : http://prntscr.com/8iwp5o

Skyrim itself has "use global settings"

@rayblue : yeah and the worst thing about it is probably that its McAfee. Everyone says that McAfee is bad in nearly all aspects but the license runs out in november.

Im definitely getting another one.

When you set values for antialiasing, texture filtering etc. in Globale Einstellungen they become system wide and limit your graphics card's performance in games. Because basically you let the graphics card do twice the work: for your whole system and for the game.

Undo the changes in Globale Einstellungen and only make changes if necessary in Programmeinstellungen, but if antialiasing for instance is already set through the Skyrim launcher there's no need to do this also in Programmeinstellungen - and if you have used the Skyrim launcher for your settings anyway you can leave the settings in Programmeinstellungen alone altogether.

Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim should be in the drop down menu of Programmeinstellungen.

Programmeinstellungen is used for games. Better never use Globale Einstellungen for tuning game settings because of performance hindering conflicts.

So restore Gobale Einstellungen back to default: just click on Wiederherstellen and then Übernehmen. Then test your game. Your framerates should be much better.

jessica91 · September 22, 2015

Hey guys thx for your posts !

@auron : Thx for your help

Im pretty sure i will buy an avast license but im doing some research on other forums too.

@stilz : "Sorry for the stupid long posts" - I really like these long posts cause im getting some information i understand. I cant thank you enough for your hard work writing and thinking about my problems

I will buy 2 fans for my case + a new GPU. Which one i dont know actually, probably the GTX 970 but 350€ are much at the moment.

The only 4k textures im running are Armor mods and most of the time i dont wear that armor (im getting very fast bored about stuff ingame)

Texture mods (which i dont use often, cause my computer cant handle that very good as you already know) for buildings, streets, etc. i allways download in 2k textures.

@adalgar : Thank you for your answer !

I have set globals to default and just did 2 changes to skyrim - Vsync -> disabled and "power managment mode" -> max power

I get about 10 more fps in buildings, outdoor i cant say for the moment cause skyrim crahses when i leave that building

But yeah thats skyrim yesterday perfectly fine and today it crahes after leaving a building

Adalgar · September 22, 2015

Hey guys thx for your posts !

<snip>

@adalgar : Thank you for your answer !

I have set globals to default and just did 2 changes to skyrim - Vsync -> disabled and "power managment mode" -> max power

I get about 10 more fps in buildings, outdoor i cant say for the moment cause skyrim crahses when i leave that building

But yeah thats skyrim yesterday perfectly fine and today it crahes after leaving a building

Disabling Vsync for Skyrim is about the worst advice you can follow. Without Vsync the game physics can go crazy. Objects in interiors flying around, graphical artifacts, game glitches and what not. If there's is one game that desperately needs Vsync, it's Skyrim. Let the game handle it, there's good reason Vsync is on by default.

Nayu · September 23, 2015

Hey guys thx for your posts !

<snip>

@adalgar : Thank you for your answer !

I have set globals to default and just did 2 changes to skyrim - Vsync -> disabled and "power managment mode" -> max power

I get about 10 more fps in buildings, outdoor i cant say for the moment cause skyrim crahses when i leave that building

But yeah thats skyrim yesterday perfectly fine and today it crahes after leaving a building

Disabling Vsync for Skyrim is about the worst advice you can follow. Without Vsync the game physics can go crazy. Objects in interiors flying around, graphical artifacts, game glitches and what not. If there's is one game that desperately needs Vsync, it's Skyrim. Let the game handle it, there's good reason Vsync is on by default.

And don't forget NPCs and Creatures dropping from the sky and dying on impact

But yeah V-Sync when you have a 60Hz refreshrate is advised.

Xpyke · September 23, 2015

Guys, I've read the comments and sincerely I agree that must be something wrong with the video card, I player for 3 years on my notebook, without reaching such low framerates (even with shadows), and it was a 2,2 quad + Radeon Mobile 5650 (1gb), but my note fried and I bought a PC, so now for the specs:

AMD FX - 6300 (your cpu is superior to this one)

8 GB RAM

ATI R9 270x

I have more than 150 active mods, textures and everything, and my gpu is handling, but measuring it with afterburner shows 95% of the gpu capacity is beeing used, but I'm one more to endorse the idea of buying a cheaper card, for reference my card is at its limit, but is delivering everything on max settings.

Use this site to compare http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.phpand gives you the whole list and its specs.

Adalgar · September 23, 2015

Guys, I've read the comments and sincerely I agree that must be something wrong with the video card, I player for 3 years on my notebook, without reaching such low framerates (even with shadows), and it was a 2,2 quad + Radeon Mobile 5650 (1gb), but my note fried and I bought a PC, so now for the specs:

AMD FX - 6300 (your cpu is superior to this one)

8 GB RAM

ATI R9 270x

I have more than 150 active mods, textures and everything, and my gpu is handling, but measuring it with afterburner shows 95% of the gpu capacity is beeing used, but I'm one more to endorse the idea of buying a cheaper card, for reference my card is at its limit, but is delivering everything on max settings.

Use this site to compare http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.phpand gives you the whole list and its specs.

Could be the card, but I doubt it somewhat. 120 FPS indoors (see page 2) does not really point at a faulty card.

Wrong settings or not needed settings, applying antialiasing etc. globally, could make a card doing more and unneeded work which results in lower FPS and could also explain the higher temps.

I would advise setting all things changed at some point in time in the Nvidia Control Panel back to default, unless one exactly understands its meaning and is sure it benefits and isn't conflicting with values that may be set elsewhere. Use the Skyrim Launcher for settings. If Vsync for whatever reason is not working (FPS goes way over 60 FPS on a 60 Hz monitor for instance), then force it in Nvidia Control Panel for Skyrim (easiest way). For reference the performance of a GTX 660, unmodded Skyrim, Ultra Preset:

But of course one could always buy a newer and stronger card and the GTX 660 is aging. It would be just a pity if such a card couldn't also reach its full potential.

stilz · September 24, 2015

Nobody is saying the cards performance isnt where it should be, at least Im not anymore. You gotta remember we went from 30fps with shadows off to 120 indoors with everything on highest over the course of the steps taken in this thread (new drivers, disabling McAfee etc.). Toms numbers are also likely a little low given they were taken nearly a year before the last updates were pushed for the game. Many of the patches in 2013 boosted framerate quite a bit if memory serves as they adapted and shipped many fixes made by the community in the last few patches.

The issue I have with it is the card is pegged at 95c no matter what the fan settings are which is the point where the card is physically shutting itself down to avoid damage (causing frame rate spikes). Even when we first started getting screencaps and the card was "stuck" in low power clocks it was getting over 90c. Could be a bad sensor, or a myriad of other things. GPU temp will not drop drastically enough with just shutting things off in CP, the card can only pull as much power from the PSU as its power delivery circuits were designed to pull, which in combination with its clock speeds and voltage settings the GPU can only produce a finite amount of heat ( The GPU's intended TDP ). With no frame rate limit the card is operating as fast as it can all the time and you may see a difference of 2-3c with antialiasing off, but not 20 to 25+.

However turning on vsync and shutting off that 4x Antialiasing would almost certianly help in some situations as the load on the GPU would drop substantially (Indoors, caves etc.) because even if the card is capable of pushing 120 FPS it only needs to push 60. If its still too hot even with half the work load theres something wrong. (Id say anything getting close to 85c given the cards thermal ceiling)

Changing voltage or clock settings (overclocking) on the other hand alters the maximum possible heat generation of the chip. As long as there is head room with the ability of the GPU itself and the boards power handling circuitry of course, otherwise you just end up with an unstable computer. The power delivery on nVidia cards is typically pretty lackluster since the GTX 500 series.

Id also like to clarify because I recommended the R9 390 or the GTX970 doesnt mean you cant get away with lesser cards, especially at 1080p (GTX960, R9 380 etc.). I just tend to recommend cards I feel will still perform well even when theyre a generation or 2 behind. The 660 happens to be a card I think is fine for most people even though it is a bit behind now. In the end it comes down to what you the buyer can afford. You should buy the best card *you* can afford. Period. If you have second thoughts about a card because of how much it costs, maybe you cant reasonably afford it at that time. So its time to save up or look elsewhere . I would however say try to stay away from anything in lower brackets than the 660 was in at its release or the 960 is in now however. That price range is really the last cards that nVidia or AMD means to be full time gaming cards. Youll notice once you get under that price range both companies start pushing video playback performance and power usage for their products over "bleeding edge" 3d performance.

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