Best RPG of these 3

[Vyru]

1 minute ago, belegost said:

Apparently I missed the fact that Dragon Age has I not O in there. I thought we were taking about Origins, not whatever "I" stands for. In that case, what I said about DA applies to Origins. I haven't actually played whatever "I" is.

I = Inquisition, the third one. Origins definitly was the best, DA2 was ok-ish, Inquisition better again. 

[belegost]

1 minute ago, Vyru said:

I = Inquisition, the third one. Origins definitly was the best, DA2 was ok-ish, Inquisition better again. 

Dunno, dun care. DA2 was garbage though.

[Vyru]

Just now, belegost said:

Dunno, dun care. DA2 was garbage though.

As a sequel to DAO - absolutley... from a neutral perspective and considering the fact Bioware's time was cut and they were pushed to release it early AND including the final DLC that connected it to the story of Inquisition - it was ok-ish. 

[Count Chocula]

1 hour ago, Vyru said:

I'm with you there, while there are things i think the other two are doing better i had to give my vote to Skyrim.

 

That... is true but then again i finished vanilla skyrim twice and got all achievements years ago on ps3 and honestly if not for mods i don't think i would have played it again so i partly disagree here... also you can say the same about BG3 - you will find something new here and there in every new run... question is, is it enough to see everything you already know over and over again...

 

Techincally Skyrim leads to the same end too just without telling you the order to do stuff in 😜 Also BG leads to different endings... but i know what you mean.

Skyrim's "end" (i.e., killing Alduin) is not the be-all end-all that killing the big bosses are in BG3 and DA. I can enjoy continuing on in Skyrim after killing Alduin. After killing the big bosses in the DA games (I never finished BG3), I have no desire to continue (even if that's possible).

 

Replaying BG3 (which I did a lot of to level 4 or 5 during EA) reminds of when I played D&D Online in a permadeath guild. Playing a different class/race combo can do only so much to rekindle interest in a linear game like BG3 (or DA, for that matter). "Linear versus sandbox" is the issue with BG3 and DA versus Skyim. the scope of Skyrim's world  is so much bigger than BG3's and DA's. And BG3's shrinks as you progress through the game (maybe DA's does, too, don't remember). That's also where Skyrim scores over FO3, New Vegas and to a lesser extent FO4.

Edited May 14, 2025 by chocula

[belegost]

6 hours ago, Vyru said:

As a sequel to DAO - absolutley... from a neutral perspective and considering the fact Bioware's time was cut and they were pushed to release it early AND including the final DLC that connected it to the story of Inquisition - it was ok-ish. 

Internal issues do not concern me. The game is either good or its garbage. No excuses.

 

If I had bought a house or a car, I wouldn't want to hear about developer's/manufacturer's problems. I want a good end product or I go elsewhere.

 

There's way too many apologists for way too many crap releases over the past decade and a half.

Edited May 14, 2025 by belegost

[nilead]

11 hours ago, Vyru said:

literally nothing about 2 was better than inquisition??

 Subjective, ofcourse, but while DA2 was the size of a shoebox and all its level design was done by an intern paid in cafeteria sandwitches, it at least kept the writing going. 

I actually finishes it, and even went for a second go around to see "what happens if i...", i still do remember several moments and plot points from there. I couldnt name one such episode in DA:I. It starts with you being a prisoner to an organization called Inquisition, who put you in charge roughly half an hour into the game, because Inquisition is trusting like that and you're Mary Sue... and having set its bar low enough,  it drags you on in with pointless checklists and soulless companions who ocassionally give you HR "Support LGBT, mkay?" talk. Bland, completely forgetable grind. 

 Strap on top of it reworked (and comicly easy) combat, and there is just... nothing. DA:I might have actually hired some people to desined levels, but those levels are empty, there is nothing in them. iIt manages to be simultaniously vastly larger and yet even smaller than DA:2. I got to a point wich i guess is close to an end, as those plastic gender-for-personality dummies get all dramatic, you're teleported or some such into a linear forest level with lots of same enemies to grind through... and i just alt+f4'd it, never to touch it again. Couldnt care enough for the plot or its characters to waste any more time clicking down zero threat billion health piniatas to see how it ends.

 Sandbox size is the only thing DA:I improved, and with no memorable content in it, its worth next to nothing.

[Grey Cloud]

10 hours ago, belegost said:

Apparently I missed the fact that Dragon Age has I not O in there. I thought we were taking about Origins, not whatever "I" stands for. In that case, what I said about DA applies to Origins. I haven't actually played whatever "I" is.

 

I'm still going with Betrayal at Krondor though. That game has shaped my perception of what a cRPG is.

I = Inquisition.

[Vyru]

14 hours ago, chocula said:

Skyrim's "end" (i.e., killing Alduin) is not the be-all end-all that killing the big bosses are in BG3 and DA. I can enjoy continuing on in Skyrim after killing Alduin. After killing the big bosses in the DA games (I never finished BG3), I have no desire to continue (even if that's possible).

 

Replaying BG3 (which I did a lot of to level 4 or 5 during EA) reminds of when I played D&D Online in a permadeath guild. Playing a different class/race combo can do only so much to rekindle interest in a linear game like BG3 (or DA, for that matter). "Linear versus sandbox" is the issue with BG3 and DA versus Skyim. the scope of Skyrim's world  is so much bigger than BG3's and DA's. And BG3's shrinks as you progress through the game (maybe DA's does, too, don't remember). That's also where Skyrim scores over FO3, New Vegas and to a lesser extent FO4.

Yeah i agree, Skyrim does a great job not forcing you to do stuff in a linear way where everything leads back to the "main plot" in fact the main quest doesn't really feel more important than other questlines and i absolutely do enjoy the freedom the world gives you. In the end it's still the modding community and all the mods we have that makes it so easy for me to give my vote to Skyrim... i stay with my statement that there's some things the other two do better.

[Vyru]

9 hours ago, belegost said:

Internal issues do not concern me. The game is either good or its garbage. No excuses.

Ok i give you that one... not gonna argue, you're right.

 

I still don't think the game isn't complete garbage... it's not really good especially compared to Origins and Inquisition but i've had some fun with it and i've definitly played worse games. Probably wouldn't play it again after 2 runs tho.

 

 

 

 

[Vyru]

7 hours ago, nilead said:

soulless companions who ocassionally give you HR "Support LGBT, mkay?" talk.

That... sounds like Veilguard not Inquisition to me? 

 

7 hours ago, nilead said:

It starts with you being a prisoner to an organization called Inquisition, who put you in charge roughly half an hour into the game, because Inquisition is trusting like that and you're Mary Sue..

You're the only one with the power to close the rifts... how should the story continue? You keep being their prisoner and they force you to close them? 

 

7 hours ago, nilead said:

 Strap on top of it reworked (and comicly easy) combat, and there is just... nothing.

The whole combat system is pretty much the same as in 2 including skilltrees etc... the only point i agree on is the difficulty, that was a joke even on nightmare.

 

7 hours ago, nilead said:

linear forest level with lots of same enemies to grind through

The variety of enemies wasn't bigger in DA2. The companions in 2 were 0% more interesting, in my opinion Inquisition even improved there. 

 

Since you took your time to point out what you think 2 did better, here's what makes Inquisition better for me: Let's start with 2 not giving you a choice for races, you're stuck with human only. Kirkwall looked the same everywhere with 2-3 exceptions but most of the city was just grey walls. As you progress even moving to the upper city in the bigger house didn't really feel like a upgrade, you do nothing there while in Inquisition you get a castle that developes over time and actually lets you do some micro management with the table quests, playing judge for the enemies you spared, merchants open their stands etc. Armor / Weapon crafting, enchanting, recoloring was quite fun while it was non existant in 2. Like in origins the final boss actually felt like one... one that was threatening the whole world while that crazy bitch in 2 only threatened that one boring shithole of a city. To be honest the Arishock would have been a better final boss than Meridith. 

 

7 hours ago, nilead said:

DA:I might have actually hired some people to desined levels, but those levels are empty, there is nothing in them.

It's not like there was actually more to do in Kirkwall, 90% of the time you were sent trough the whole city killing some enemies on the way, only difference you were just looking at the same concrete walls all the time. And to be fair... what did you expect out in the wild? If you're walking trough Skyrim outside cities you see a fox here, fight a bear there, maybe encounter some npc somewhere... not much different to be honest.

 

I also never wanted to turn this into a DA2 vs DAI argument, if you think 2 is better that's fine, i personally don't see a single thing 2 does better than Inquisition. But i think it's pointless to try and convince each other, tastes and opinions are different. Let's just agree the real trash game of the series is Veilguard 😜

 

 

 

[nilead]

51 minutes ago, Vyru said:

You're the only one with the power to close the rifts... how should the story continue? You keep being their prisoner and they force you to close them? 

 Assuming it was done by competent writer?

Well, you take away Mary Sue status. Let there be a chosen one, let there be Inquisition. You can even start as a high ranking member, thou hardly a faction leader, you want a heroes joruney, you want adversity. Chosen one is your prisoner. And he is not too happy about being one, dragged in chains as a dangerous anomality like Kurani threat their mages. From there, you can either go full hardass,, or build up trust to have your "Release Grunt" moment. That would create the neccecery tension, set up possible betrayal arcs and your handling of this situation, aka your character, not a fucking mark on your hand, would make you a leader of Inquisition eventually.

 It would emphasize the neccecity of managing your squads attitude, as you would need the chosen to succeed, something you'd know from the start. And making said chosen charismatic and capable anti-hero to start would set up possible plot twists and conflicts. Go to hard on him and your goody-two-shoes companions who arent too loyal to you might release him. Go too soft, and its him/her who will become the boss. Boss that might develop into a selfless character and trusted companion through interactions with you, or stray further, eventually betraying both you and the organization,

 Its 10 min sketchup.

I never touched Veilguard, Bioware was dead by 2014. Not interested in seing what would 10 years of decomposition do the companies corpse. Shame, they used to be cool. Long, long time ago,

[Vyru]

31 minutes ago, nilead said:

 Assuming it was done by competent writer?

Well, you take away Mary Sue status. Let there be a chosen one, let there be Inquisition. You can even start as a high ranking member, thou hardly a faction leader, you want a heroes joruney, you want adversity. Chosen one is your prisoner. And he is not too happy about being one, dragged in chains as a dangerous anomality like Kurani threat their mages. From there, you can either go full hardass,, or build up trust to have your "Release Grunt" moment. That would create the neccecery tension, set up possible betrayal arcs and your handling of this situation, aka your character, not a fucking mark on your hand, would make you a leader of Inquisition eventually.

 It would emphasize the neccecity of managing your squads attitude, as you would need the chosen to succeed, something you'd know from the start. And making said chosen charismatic and capable anti-hero to start would set up possible plot twists and conflicts. Go to hard on him and your goody-two-shoes companions who arent too loyal to you might release him. Go too soft, and its him/her who will become the boss. Boss that might develop into a selfless character and trusted companion through interactions with you, or stray further, eventually betraying both you and the organization,

 Its 10 min sketchup.

I never touched Veilguard, Bioware was dead by 2014. Not interested in seing what would 10 years of decomposition do the companies corpse. Shame, they used to be cool. Long, long time ago,

Ok let's say they could have made it harder for you to work your way to the status of being the Inquisitor but that would probably mean there would be less content from the point you made it there as there always is a limit how much content they put in a game until it's released, just like the whole upper city was cut out of BG3. In fact i even found it refreshing that you rise to power that quick and actually get to play most of the game as the Inquisitor. In your typical game (including DAO and DA2) you would be a nobody most of the game and a hero / king / whatever in the end, watching another cutscene and maybe get the option to walk arround post game with nothing to do... but let's say you're right with everything you said here... none of this makes DA2 a better game than Inquisition imo. Nothing does. I could have kept going with the list what makes Inquisition better for me but it's pointless, you like 2 better no matter what i say and that's perfectly fine. 

Edited May 14, 2025 by Vyru

[nilead]

20 minutes ago, Vyru said:

you like 2 better no matter what i say and that's perfectly fine. 

 Pretty much, yes. From where i stand, writing is the king in RPG. Its a story, first and foremost. DA:I having inferior one is all that matters to me. Story can be short, characters can be ugly, there can be 1,5 levels in the entire game, but as long as im engaged and want to know how it ends - im a satisfied customer. And setup i described can still put you in charge in 30 minutes, blast kills most of high command, your squad saves the day, your de-facto leading crisis management leads to you becoming the boss.

 Not an undisputed one, however, not chosen surrounded by mannequins, irreplacable by his very nature. You still can have your lord of the castle fantasy, if that is your prefered direction, i can understand the appeal. It doesnt have to sacrifice the story, BioWare just didnt bother.

 A very different game, but one id say does a mix of RPG and lord of the castle right is Owlcats Pathfinder:Kingmaker. 

[Miauzi]

Vor 37 Minuten sagte Vyru:

Okay, sagen wir, sie hätten es dir schwerer machen können, dich zum Inquisitor hochzuarbeiten, aber das hätte wahrscheinlich bedeutet, dass es ab dem Punkt, an dem du es geschafft hast, weniger Inhalt gäbe, da es immer eine Inhaltsbegrenzung für ein Spiel gibt, bis es veröffentlicht wird, genau wie die ganze Oberstadt aus BG3 entfernt wurde. Ich fand es sogar erfrischend, dass du so schnell an die Macht kommst und tatsächlich die meiste Zeit des Spiels als Inquisitor spielen kannst. In einem typischen Spiel (einschließlich DAO und DA2) wärst du die meiste Zeit ein Niemand und am Ende ein Held/König/was auch immer, würdest dir eine weitere Zwischensequenz ansehen und vielleicht nach dem Spiel herumlaufen können, ohne etwas zu tun... aber nehmen wir an, du hast mit allem recht, was du hier gesagt hast... nichts davon macht DA2 meiner Meinung nach zu einem besseren Spiel als Inquisition. Nichts tut das. Ich hätte die Liste dessen, was Inquisition für mich besser macht, noch weiterführen können, aber das ist sinnlos. Dir gefällt 2 besser, egal was ich sage, und das ist völlig in Ordnung. 

 

Just think about how quickly you were "promoted" from apprentice mage to archmage, aka head of the facility, in Skyrim... and not even by the resident mages, but by a mystical (and secretive) order!

That was an O.M.G. 15 years ago.

[Count Chocula]

1 hour ago, nilead said:

 Assuming it was done by competent writer?

Well, you take away Mary Sue status.

Mary Sue, Chosen One, whatever you want to call it, is the go-to for the vast majority of fantastic fiction, be it computer game, novel, movie or TV series. Not disputing you, I'm piling on and agreeing with you. It's a lazy, predictable cliche..

 

I didn't get very far into Fallout 1, but if that water chip is so important, why isn't there a small army of residents sent out to look for a replacement? The answer is "Because it's a computer game." Which is an OK answer in terms of game play, but not satisfying in terms of fiction. Whenever the answer to "Why?" is "Because that's how the plot is driven forward," that's when willing suspension of disbelief fails. The work in question might still be entertaining for reasons other than its fiction, though.

[belegost]

2 hours ago, Vyru said:

not much different to be honest

Except you can be subjected to a surprise buttsecks and that alone places The Fantasy Porn Simulator That Just Works (tm) above everything else.

[nilead]

2 minutes ago, chocula said:

The work in question might still be entertaining for reasons other than its fiction, though.

 Absolutely, thats why we have different genres. For example, combat in RPGs is chronically pathetic. Witcher 3 can be completed by spamming left click and has no attack commitment, shooting in Mass Effect is bland at best, BG 3 is based on TT rules... you get the idea. 

 And they are beloved despite those, and many other issues. Similarily, story of Doom is - you're angry and kill demons, go. And thats okay, that is enough, you're not there for a story.

Sometimes we even get gems that tick more than one box. Like old WC3 had top notch RTS gameplay and good story to go with it. And sometimes, you just dont get  what you're looking for. Say, if i got myself a flight simulator and found flying sucks ass, it would take truly spectacular achievements in other areas to keep me from refunding it.

 It works sometimes. Bethesda writing is weak AF, but their world building and design just makes you want to explore regardless. But those are the exceptions, usually becoming their own thing. Bethesda games are their own blend. DA:I didnt create its own genre, just became a stepping stone in BioWares downfall.

[Count Chocula]

One of my favorite examples of ruined suspension of disbelief is in Blade Runner. Towards the end of the movie, when Deckard goes to the Bradbury to see Sebastian, it's pouring rain. He pulls up in front of the hotel, and his windshield wiper is not working. That's because the prop broke. That wasn't intentional, but apparently Ridley Scott didn't think it was a big enough deal to fix. To me, it is a big deal. In rain that hard, no one would be driving around without their wipers going. Unless they have to drive only 20' for a film shot.

 

But that does not stop Blade Runner from being one of my favorite movies.

[Count Chocula]

9 hours ago, nilead said:

Bethesda writing is weak AF, but their world building and design just makes you want to explore regardless.

An example of that, at first glance, is Gage's replies in FO4 if you choose sarcastic dialog options. He replies as if he thinks you're serious. Now maybe that's actually good writing, to show us that Gage is one of those people who doesn't understand sarcasm (certainly no shortage of those in real life). But Gage strikes me as the kind of guy who would understand sarcasm, so I put it in the shitty writing bucket.

Edited May 15, 2025 by chocula

[Grey Cloud]

3 hours ago, Vyru said:

i personally don't see a single thing 2 does better than Inquisition.

I agree. Fighting the same group of enemies on the same street corner every time you pass by was boring. In DA:I, to me, the dialogue interactions between various permutations of Varric, Leliana, Cassandra and Vivienne whether general banter or the theological/philosophical were excellent.

 

Meanwhile, in other news Rogue Trader DLC2 is 'incoming' according to the latest update. 👏 🤞🙏 

[Vyru]

3 hours ago, nilead said:

You still can have your lord of the castle fantasy, if that is your prefered direction, i can understand the appeal.

Wouldn't say that's my thing in general, i usualy like the "underdog slowly working his way up" setting but i think a different approach was cool for once and it didn't ruin DAI for me. Does it make sense you're the herald then inquisitor in a couple days? Not really... do i really care if everything makes perfect sense in a fantasy game where i can shoot fire and lightning, demons fall from the sky and some ugly ancient bastard wants to destroy the world? Not really... 

[Vyru]

2 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

In DA:I, to me, the dialogue interactions between various permutations of Varric, Leliana, Cassandra and Vivienne whether general banter or the theological/philosophical were excellent.

100% agree even though i don't really like Vivienne and sent her away in most of my runs 😆

 

Also Morrigans comeback and story/character progression was pretty cool.

Edited May 14, 2025 by Vyru

[Vyru]

3 hours ago, belegost said:

Except you can be subjected to a surprise buttsecks and that alone places The Fantasy Porn Simulator That Just Works (tm) above everything else.

💯 😆

[Grey Cloud]

3 hours ago, belegost said:

Except you can be subjected to a surprise buttsecks and that alone places The Fantasy Porn Simulator That Just Works (tm) above everything else.

That and the warriors from Hammerfell have curved swords. Curved swords!

[Grey Cloud]

41 minutes ago, Vyru said:

i don't really like Vivienne

The banter between her and Varric is some of the best.

 

Vivienne: Varric dear, you must give me the name of your tailor

Varric: Why? I don't think he makes anything you would wear.

Vivienne: Oh, I know. I just want to send him a stiff letter about the clothes he makes for you.

😬