Captured By The Thalmor: Southrange Gaol

adadnirari · March 30

11 hours ago, lollllllllllnope said:

Unfortunately not; it uses a few assets from the Dawnguard DLC.

But doesn't LE contain all DLCs?

lollllllllllnope · April 1

On 3/30/2026 at 8:17 AM, adadnirari said:

But doesn't LE contain all DLCs?

Oh, does it? I must have gotten it confused with Oldrim.

I built the mod on SE and tested it on SE, and I am not an expert in backporting, so unfortunately I can't make any guarantees. If you want to try it out and see how it goes, though, feel free to report back!

adadnirari · April 2

I tried installing and the game didn't load at all. I tried to backport it with the creationkit and I wasn't able.

lollllllllllnope · April 2

3 hours ago, adadnirari said:

I tried installing and the game didn't load at all. I tried to backport it with the creationkit and I wasn't able.

Ah, sorry about that. I'll add a note to the main mod page.

Lilzt3hcat · May 16

On 4/2/2026 at 10:54 AM, adadnirari said:

I tried installing and the game didn't load at all. I tried to backport it with the creationkit and I wasn't able.

Did you also backport the meshes and textures?, also tes5edit with the new 2026 backport to LE script is required to ensure all forms are proper. Theres a CC item and water changes which also have to be fixed otherwise it wont work. The header also needed to be changed from 1.71 to 1.70, otherwise anything non-aniv edit wont even wanna load the esp at all.

(This file should work for LE, but I havent tried it yet, you'll still need to run cathedral on the meshes and textures)

***Edit: been testing the file and its perfectly playable.

CBTS- Captured By the Thalmor- Southrange Gaol.esp

Edited May 20 by Lilzt3hcat
Updated Information

lollllllllllnope · May 16

1 hour ago, Lilzt3hcat said:

Did you also backport the meshes and textures?, also tes5edit with the new 2026 backport to LE script is required to ensure all forms are proper. Theres a CC item and water changes which also have to be fixed otherwise it wont work. The header also needed to be changed from 1.71 to 1.70, otherwise anything non-aniv edit wont even wanna load the esp at all.

(This file should work for LE, but I havent tried it yet, you'll still need to run cathedral on the meshes and textures)

CBTS- Captured By the Thalmor- Southrange Gaol.esp 1.09 MB · 0 downloads

Wait, sorry, what's the CC item? I made an effort not to include any of the AE content; if it's in there it's in there by accident.

(The strangulation spell IS based on the CC Spell Tomes "Choking Grasp", but I rebuilt it myself rather than using the official version.)

lollllllllllnope · May 16

Hey all! I'm pleased to announce the release of CBT 1.5--the biggest update to the mod since it was released!

Thanks to popular demand, there is now a female interrogator, who plays exactly the same as the male one. Go live your femdom fantasies : )

I also finally learned how to make an MCM, so you can pick and choose which torture methods you want or don't want, allow/disallow NSFW content, and decide exactly when you want to get rescued.

Other cool stuff includes a few minor mechanical features (you can choose to return to the cell at any time, and the guards will notice if you try to pick the lock) and added dialogue for both the player and the NPCs.

Plus, more bugfixes. It's still not 100% perfect, but it is getting better.

I don't recommend updating this mod mid-quest, but if you haven't started CBT yet in your current playthrough, this is a great opportunity!

Edited May 16 by lollllllllllnope

reynnaboo · May 16

This is such a good update, thanks for all your work on this! I am however having issues getting 1.5 to work/start at all in my load order.

I have tested this across a new save, as well as upgrading on my existing save that had not yet started the quest, in which the previous version works just fine.

For me, the 1.5 MCM does not show. I know this can often happen to any mod for no reason, but I've tried a few things to get it to work such as using Menu Maid to refresh things/force it to update and still no luck.

1.5 currently does not seem to start/work for me either when using the "setstage cbtsintro 0" command, or by completing Missing In Action, when the previous version does.

Using the console command on the previous version for me does work, with Keldarin showing up at the docks and then sleeping, however with 1.5, Keldarin does not appear at the docks.

For me, when entering the above console command on 1.5, it spams the console log with 'GetInCell >> 0.00' a bunch of times. I'm not super familiar with the CK/mod creation so not sure if that's significant or not, however the previous version does not do this.

I don't know much about making mods so my suggestions might be completely wrong, but I think the structure of the mods source/scripts stuff could be causing issues? In data/source, you have a number of compiled scripts, but no psc files, and in scripts there is the source files. But you also have scripts/source which seems like everything is in the right place.

Thanks again for making this mod!

Lilzt3hcat · May 16

5 hours ago, lollllllllllnope said:

Wait, sorry, what's the CC item? I made an effort not to include any of the AE content; if it's in there it's in there by accident.

(The strangulation spell IS based on the CC Spell Tomes "Choking Grasp", but I rebuilt it myself rather than using the official version.)

(its a single item) It shows as a placed object 602966F / 1003165 in tes5edit in the cell CBTSprisonInterior "Southrange Gaol" [CELL:06005900] (position -1061.442505, 2826.953613, 219.715942) (and ofc just as an error because im not using AE) Deleting it has no effect on the functionality of the mod as far as I can tell so it must have been decorative or something.

Edited May 16 by Lilzt3hcat

Lilzt3hcat · May 16

1 hour ago, reynnaboo said:

This is such a good update, thanks for all your work on this! I am however having issues getting 1.5 to work/start at all in my load order.

I have tested this across a new save, as well as upgrading on my existing save that had not yet started the quest, in which the previous version works just fine.

For me, the 1.5 MCM does not show. I know this can often happen to any mod for no reason, but I've tried a few things to get it to work such as using Menu Maid to refresh things/force it to update and still no luck.

1.5 currently does not seem to start/work for me either when using the "setstage cbtsintro 0" command, or by completing Missing In Action, when the previous version does.

Using the console command on the previous version for me does work, with Keldarin showing up at the docks and then sleeping, however with 1.5, Keldarin does not appear at the docks.

For me, when entering the above console command on 1.5, it spams the console log with 'GetInCell >> 0.00' a bunch of times. I'm not super familiar with the CK/mod creation so not sure if that's significant or not, however the previous version does not do this.

I don't know much about making mods so my suggestions might be completely wrong, but I think the structure of the mods source/scripts stuff could be causing issues? In data/source, you have a number of compiled scripts, but no psc files, and in scripts there is the source files. But you also have scripts/source which seems like everything is in the right place.

Thanks again for making this mod!

Part of this could be the lack of seq file (which can make dialogue and quests not popup without save and reloading and other nonsense)
I generated one not sure if it'll work for AE/SE this site also wont let me upload it cleanly so I had to zip it even though its only like a 1kb file

CBTS- Captured By the Thalmor- Southrange Gaol.zip

Edited May 16 by Lilzt3hcat

lollllllllllnope · May 16

3 hours ago, reynnaboo said:

This is such a good update, thanks for all your work on this! I am however having issues getting 1.5 to work/start at all in my load order.

I have tested this across a new save, as well as upgrading on my existing save that had not yet started the quest, in which the previous version works just fine.

For me, the 1.5 MCM does not show. I know this can often happen to any mod for no reason, but I've tried a few things to get it to work such as using Menu Maid to refresh things/force it to update and still no luck.

1.5 currently does not seem to start/work for me either when using the "setstage cbtsintro 0" command, or by completing Missing In Action, when the previous version does.

Using the console command on the previous version for me does work, with Keldarin showing up at the docks and then sleeping, however with 1.5, Keldarin does not appear at the docks.

For me, when entering the above console command on 1.5, it spams the console log with 'GetInCell >> 0.00' a bunch of times. I'm not super familiar with the CK/mod creation so not sure if that's significant or not, however the previous version does not do this.

I don't know much about making mods so my suggestions might be completely wrong, but I think the structure of the mods source/scripts stuff could be causing issues? In data/source, you have a number of compiled scripts, but no psc files, and in scripts there is the source files. But you also have scripts/source which seems like everything is in the right place.

Thanks again for making this mod!

Sorry to hear that. I included the stuff in data/source/scripts mostly for the ease of any other mod authors trying to make changes; the Creation Kit and MO2 sometimes don't play nicely together and are sometimes finicky about where they load scripts from. SSE doesn't check that folder, though, so it shouldn't be affecting anything; you could delete the "source" folder entirely and the mod would still run.

I also don't think the problem is the lack of an SEQ file; that mostly exists to auto-start some quests, and CBT doesn't auto-start. It relies on that trigger from Missing in Action, the console, or the MCM to get going.

What happens if you coc directly into "cbtsprisoninterior"? If the console tells you there's no such cell or the game crashes, then something's wrong with your installation. Try removing the mod and reinstalling.

Could you maybe share your load order? And are you on Vortex or MO2?

lollllllllllnope · May 16

2 hours ago, Lilzt3hcat said:

(its a single item) It shows as a placed object 602966F / 1003165 in tes5edit in the cell CBTSprisonInterior "Southrange Gaol" [CELL:06005900] (position -1061.442505, 2826.953613, 219.715942) (and ofc just as an error because im not using AE) Deleting it has no effect on the functionality of the mod as far as I can tell so it must have been decorative or something.

Weird. That's just a barrel in the mess hall; you're right that it's decorative. CK shows that it's from the Update.esm master and not Skyrim.esm; I wonder if Update.esm now includes AE content.

Anyway, thanks for the report back. (And for helping other users troubleshoot!)

Lilzt3hcat · May 16

1 minute ago, lollllllllllnope said:

Weird. That's just a barrel in the mess hall; you're right that it's decorative. CK shows that it's from the Update.esm master and not Skyrim.esm; I wonder if Update.esm now includes AE content.

Anyway, thanks for the report back. (And for helping other users troubleshoot!)

Wouldn't Surprise me... (Bethesda likes to do stuff that's ends up making more problems then it fixes often enough.)

and no prob 😄

reynnaboo · May 16

32 minutes ago, lollllllllllnope said:

Sorry to hear that. I included the stuff in data/source/scripts mostly for the ease of any other mod authors trying to make changes; the Creation Kit and MO2 sometimes don't play nicely together and are sometimes finicky about where they load scripts from. SSE doesn't check that folder, though, so it shouldn't be affecting anything; you could delete the "source" folder entirely and the mod would still run.

I also don't think the problem is the lack of an SEQ file; that mostly exists to auto-start some quests, and CBT doesn't auto-start. It relies on that trigger from Missing in Action, the console, or the MCM to get going.

What happens if you coc directly into "cbtsprisoninterior"? If the console tells you there's no such cell or the game crashes, then something's wrong with your installation. Try removing the mod and reinstalling.

Could you maybe share your load order? And are you on Vortex or MO2?

I figured out the issue! It's an MO2 issue specifically. When you install mods via MO2, you have to make sure the path to the data file is correct, and when it is, it shows up green like in the image I've attached. However, with your mod even though it's showing it should work, the file path actually becomes data > data, and doesn't work.

What an MO2 user would have to do is right click the correct data path highlighted below and 'set as data directory'. This then installs the mod as normal, however it will not install the ESP file because it is outside the data path. So once you have installed the mod like this, you would need to add the ESP from the download into the data directory again and activate it.

The MCM then came up and everything runs perfectly! I think you basically just need to remove that first data folder on top, or instruct MO2 users to install like this.

Thank you again!

lollllllllllnope · May 16

40 minutes ago, reynnaboo said:

I figured out the issue! It's an MO2 issue specifically. When you install mods via MO2, you have to make sure the path to the data file is correct, and when it is, it shows up green like in the image I've attached. However, with your mod even though it's showing it should work, the file path actually becomes data > data, and doesn't work.

What an MO2 user would have to do is right click the correct data path highlighted below and 'set as data directory'. This then installs the mod as normal, however it will not install the ESP file because it is outside the data path. So once you have installed the mod like this, you would need to add the ESP from the download into the data directory again and activate it.

The MCM then came up and everything runs perfectly! I think you basically just need to remove that first data folder on top, or instruct MO2 users to install like this.

Thank you again!

Sooooo I definitely intended to remove that top-level folder before uploading and definitely forgot 😅

In other news I'm pleased to announce the release of version 1.5.1 😅😅😅

*brewmasterhal* · May 17

I've done a little testing on v1.5.1, and I have some notes.

The MCM is currently organized into two pages. The first page opens by default when you enter the mod's menu from the top-level MCM, but this is also the only way to get to the first page. If I click into the Torture Methods page, it's impossible to navigate back to the other page, even using the arrow keys or WASD. I have to back out to the top-level menu and re-enter the CBT menu to reach it. This is probably why other mods create an empty landing page with just an image or something, and create individual pages for all actual menu options.

Using the Start Quest menu option correctly spawns Kel on the docks, but does not make clear to the user what has happened. At the least, it would be nice to pop up a messagebox that says to go and find Kel. A better option would be to simply execute the script that runs when you sleep after that conversation and teleport the player directly to the prison, although that would require additional dialog options to cover the fact that under these conditions the player has not met Kel. The best solution would be to give the player the option, via a messagebox, to either teleport to the docks near Kel or teleport directly to the prison.

Currently, if I create a brand new character and start the quest via the menu, I can go down and have the normal conversation with Kel. All dialog options make it clear that my character knows the location of Northwatch, and that it is a Thalmor installation. You mention that you want the player to have the option to roleplay actually not knowing, so there should be dialog here to at least feign ignorance.

Ideally it would break down to three key pieces of information: where Northwatch is; who lives there; and what they do there. These can readily be tied to quest stages and other easily poll-able functions. The state of the Missing In Action quest, MS09, can be checked with getstage MS09; if the value returned is 30+, the player knows that Northwatch is a Thalmor prison; if the value is 60+, the player has released Thorald. Whether the player knows of the location is returned by the function GetMapMarkerVisible, but you'll need to find the formID of the map marker object in the editor (in the Tamriel Worldspace). This last one is helpful for the situation where the player stumbled upon Northwatch but never started the quest.

Additional dialogs that might be interesting and can be readily checked: if the stage of MS09 is exactly 0, the player has not talked to Fralia, and should not even know the name Thorald; if the stage is 10, the player has not met Avulstein but has met Fralia and knows of Thorald; if the map marker for Whiterun is not active, the player doesn't even know who the Greymanes are.

In my current testing, trying to roleplay actually not having information, during the first round of interrogation I get stuck repeating "Please don't hurt me" followed by "I'm telling you I don't know..." until the end of the day. This isn't a bug per se, but it seems to me that after getting beaten with a mace or whatever for the first time it should be clear that they're willing to hurt and that dialog should probably be skipped.

I'll try to find some time maybe tomorrow to write up some ideas for how these dialogs could play out and set up conditions. Probably the easiest thing to do is create a set of boolean global values that you can modify as necessary based on the quest and world state when the mod is first loaded, and possibly based on the player's actions. This avenue not only simplifies the logic (rather than trying to keep track of a bunch of quest stages and map marker states, etc. you have cleanly named flags) but it means you can create a debug page in the MCM for testing.

Edit: more quick ideas
It may be worthwhile to explore modifying the dialog based on NSFW mode being active, e.g. making reference to having raped the player previously on subsequent days.
I'd like a menu toggle to not have my equipment removed when entering the prison, or alternatively a button which executes xx14af10.removeallitems player when pressed.

Edited May 17 by brewmasterhal

handsome2 · May 17

Torture Methods: castration ?

farber12 · May 17

Will you integrate mod with pama devices ?

*brewmasterhal* · May 17

5 hours ago, handsome2 said:

Torture Methods: castration ?

How do you imagine this working, mechanically?

4 hours ago, farber12 said:

Will you integrate mod with pama devices ?

I believe this has been answered before, and the answer was "in the future"

lollllllllllnope · May 18

14 hours ago, handsome2 said:

Torture Methods: castration ?

Unfortunately that would be WAY above my skill level to implement. I'm absolutely open to other people using this mod as a base, though, and making their own add-ons/extensions/patches

lollllllllllnope · May 18

13 hours ago, farber12 said:

Will you integrate mod with pama devices ?

I haven't actually answered this before, but the answer is likely no--I'm trying to keep the dependencies on this mod to a minimum, and I'm personally don't like snuff enough to put in the work. As I've said before, though, anyone who wants to build off of this mod as a base is more than welcome to do so!

lollllllllllnope · May 18

22 hours ago, brewmasterhal said:

I've done a little testing on v1.5.1, and I have some notes.

The MCM is currently organized into two pages. The first page opens by default when you enter the mod's menu from the top-level MCM, but this is also the only way to get to the first page. If I click into the Torture Methods page, it's impossible to navigate back to the other page, even using the arrow keys or WASD. I have to back out to the top-level menu and re-enter the CBT menu to reach it. This is probably why other mods create an empty landing page with just an image or something, and create individual pages for all actual menu options.

Using the Start Quest menu option correctly spawns Kel on the docks, but does not make clear to the user what has happened. At the least, it would be nice to pop up a messagebox that says to go and find Kel. A better option would be to simply execute the script that runs when you sleep after that conversation and teleport the player directly to the prison, although that would require additional dialog options to cover the fact that under these conditions the player has not met Kel. The best solution would be to give the player the option, via a messagebox, to either teleport to the docks near Kel or teleport directly to the prison.

Currently, if I create a brand new character and start the quest via the menu, I can go down and have the normal conversation with Kel. All dialog options make it clear that my character knows the location of Northwatch, and that it is a Thalmor installation. You mention that you want the player to have the option to roleplay actually not knowing, so there should be dialog here to at least feign ignorance.

Ideally it would break down to three key pieces of information: where Northwatch is; who lives there; and what they do there. These can readily be tied to quest stages and other easily poll-able functions. The state of the Missing In Action quest, MS09, can be checked with getstage MS09; if the value returned is 30+, the player knows that Northwatch is a Thalmor prison; if the value is 60+, the player has released Thorald. Whether the player knows of the location is returned by the function GetMapMarkerVisible, but you'll need to find the formID of the map marker object in the editor (in the Tamriel Worldspace). This last one is helpful for the situation where the player stumbled upon Northwatch but never started the quest.

Additional dialogs that might be interesting and can be readily checked: if the stage of MS09 is exactly 0, the player has not talked to Fralia, and should not even know the name Thorald; if the stage is 10, the player has not met Avulstein but has met Fralia and knows of Thorald; if the map marker for Whiterun is not active, the player doesn't even know who the Greymanes are.

In my current testing, trying to roleplay actually not having information, during the first round of interrogation I get stuck repeating "Please don't hurt me" followed by "I'm telling you I don't know..." until the end of the day. This isn't a bug per se, but it seems to me that after getting beaten with a mace or whatever for the first time it should be clear that they're willing to hurt and that dialog should probably be skipped.

I'll try to find some time maybe tomorrow to write up some ideas for how these dialogs could play out and set up conditions. Probably the easiest thing to do is create a set of boolean global values that you can modify as necessary based on the quest and world state when the mod is first loaded, and possibly based on the player's actions. This avenue not only simplifies the logic (rather than trying to keep track of a bunch of quest stages and map marker states, etc. you have cleanly named flags) but it means you can create a debug page in the MCM for testing.

Edit: more quick ideas
It may be worthwhile to explore modifying the dialog based on NSFW mode being active, e.g. making reference to having raped the player previously on subsequent days.
I'd like a menu toggle to not have my equipment removed when entering the prison, or alternatively a button which executes xx14af10.removeallitems player when pressed.

Wow, thanks for the rundown! You're right about the MCM; this was my first attempt at making one and so I didn't grasp some of the finer details. I do think I'm going to tweak the page configuration in a future update.

As for the "tortured for information you don't actually have", I'll admit that you've put much more thought into it than I ever did 😅 I'm not really planning on expanding the current interrogation quest that much farther, because I'd rather move on to other projects (e.g. player enslavement by the Thalmor, or abduction by other factions). Any expansions, patches, or other mods that build on CBT are more than welcome, though! I'm definitely not possessive about it

*brewmasterhal* · May 18

Done a bit of research. Here's what I've found.

The function GetMapMarkerVisible accepts a formID reference to the specific MapMarker of interest, and returns 0 if the marker is not known, 1 if the marker is visible but un-visited, and 2 if the marker is visited (fast travel is available). The formIDs of interest are:

00016290 - Northwatch Keep
000162ce - Whiterun
000c44ad - Dragonsreach

The conditions which I believe may be relevant are as follows:

Player knows the name "Gray-Mane"
Player has met Fralia
Player has met Avulstein
Player knows Thorald's name
Player has read the letter (MS09Missive [00039c8e])
Player knows Tullius is involved
Player has met Thorald
Thorald has been freed
Player knows of Northwatch
Player knows location of Northwatch
Player knows Northwatch is a Thalmor outpost
Player knows the purpose of Northwatch
Player knows Thorald is held in Northwatch
Player has been inside Northwatch

Some of these flags can be combined by virtue of having identical checks, but we'll get to that in a moment. The relevant checks for each are:

Several possible checks for this. The easiest is GetMapMarkerVisible(162ce) > 1, which simply confirms the player has been inside Whiterun. This is a "low resolution" check, but attempting to go more thorough becomes complex fast - there are 3 Gray-Mane NPCs and 5 Battle-Born NPCs whom the player may encounter without actually starting the quest (including Fralia) but there's no easy way to determine if the player has interacted with them in any way, or in the case of most Battle-Borns whether they have mentioned the name "Gray-Mane". The one exception is Idolaf, who will mention the name in the scene WhiterunAdrianneIdolafEstablishingScene [cc7b1], or in the intro dialogue with him DialogWhiterun [270a4]. These can be checked via IsSceneActionComplete(cc7b1, 2) and GetStageDone(270a4, 10) respectively, but this seems excessive. Given that the noted scene begins if the player has crossed the bridge over the little stream just inside the gate, it follows that the name has probably come up. Since it is technically possible to pop into the city Worldspace and immediately leave, I did look up the formID of the marker for Dragonsreach. It would also seem possible that the player has never been near Whiterun and happened to stumble into Northwatch and meet Thorald, but even if the player slaughters all the Thalmor inside Thorald remains disabled until stage 20 and cannot be met, thus the only valid check here is:
GetMapMarkerVisible(162ce) > 1
This one is easy: GetStage(MS09) >= 10
GetStage(MS09) >= 20
GetStage(MS09) >= 10
GetStage(MS09) >= 30 - In this case, it may be slightly more accurate to use the SKSE function IsRead() on the Book object MS09Missive [39c8e], but without the use of console commands/certain mods there's actually not a way to reach this quest stage without reading the note, thus:
GetStage(MS09) >= 30 or IsRead(39c8e) if it's preferred to handle the possibility that players are using the console/running mods that allow picking up books without reading them first (with the caveat that SKSE becomes a requirement if it is not already)
GetStage(MS09) >= 30 - With the Unofficial Patch it becomes possible to get a letter from Tullius ordering the release of Thorald, but the dialog only becomes active if GetStage(MS09) >= 30 AND GetStage(MS09) < 60
GetStage(MS09) >= 60
GetStage(MS09) >= 100
GetStage(MS09) >= 40 OR GetMapMarkerVisible(16290) > 0 - Hypothetically the player has read the note if GetStage(MS09) >= 30, but stage 40 places a quest target on Thorald.
GetStage(MS09) >= 40 OR GetMapMarkerVisible(16290)
Same as above
Same as above
Same as above
This one, sadly, can only really be handled via GetStage(MS09) >= 60 or possibly GetObjectiveCompleted(MS09, 55) == true, although in practice there's no meaningful distinction here as the script fragment called when the quest stage is set to 60 is what completes objective 55. The only way to get more granular with this is to place trigger volumes inside the interior Cell at each door (or attach scripts with OnActivate blocks to both of the interior and exterior doors), but I see no real advantage to doing this.

If we combine flags with identical conditions, we end up with:

Player knows name "Gray-Mane" - GetMapMarkerVisible(162ce) > 1
Player has met Fralia and knows of Thorald - GetStage(MS09) >= 10
Player has met Avulstein - GetStage(MS09) >= 20
Player has read the letter, knows of Battle-Born and Tullius involvement, knows Thorald is at Northwatch - GetStage(MS09) >= 30
Player knows of Northwatch, its location, occupancy, and purpose - GetStage(MS09) > 40 OR GetMapMarkerVisible(16290) > 0
Player has met Thorald/been inside Northwatch - GetStage(MS09) >= 60

Note that I have omitted the flag for Thorald being freed. The entire story of this mod hinges on Thorald being missing, so of course he must have been freed. This leads to an interesting observation, though; if a player does start this mod without actually freeing Thorald, then in order to maintain continuity the following needs to happen:

Thorald, Avulstein, Geirlund, and Vidrald all need to be disabled and marked for delete
Every Thalmor NPC inside and outside the Northwatch Cell needs to be disabled and marked for delete
The quest needs to be set to stage 200 or 201, completing the quest with a reward (a leveled weapon for stage 200 or 200 gold for stage 201), or set to stage 202 or 255 to fail the quest with no reward (202 simply sets objective 110 to failed, while 255 removes the player from the MS09AllyFaction)

If you simply create a FormList which contains the proper ACHR records for all of the NPCs, you can batch disable and delete them.

Ok, so we've got six flags which can potentially be relevant to the mod's story and are checkable. The only way that any of these flags are relevant is if they player uses the MCM (or console) to spawn Kel without actually completing Missing In Action. This means that these flags only need to be checked if the mod's quest has been started abnormally. Here is a pseudocode implementation of the logic which should be executed when the player first encounters Kel:

Function Quest_Init()
	if GetStage(MS09) >= 100
		CBT_PlayerKnowsGraymane = true
		CBT_PlayerKnowsThorald = true
		CBT_PlayerMetAvulstein = true
		CBT_PlayerReadLetter = true
		CBT_PlayerKnowsNorthwatch = true
		CBT_PlayerMetThorald = true
	else
		CBT_PlayerKnowsGraymane = GetMapMarkerVisible(162ce) > 1
		CBT_PlayerKnowsThorald = GetStage(MS09) >= 10
		CBT_PlayerMetAvulstein = GetStage(MS09) >= 20
		CBT_PlayerReadLetter = GetStage(MS09) >= 30
		CBT_PlayerKnowsNorthwatch = GetStage(MS09) >= 40 OR GetMapMarkerVisible(16290) > 0
		CBT_PlayerMetThorald = GetStage(MS09) >= 60
		Northwatch_NPCs.disable
		Northwatch_NPCs.markfordelete
		SetStage(MS09, 202)
	endif
EndFunction

This should handle all eventualities. The if/else effectively determines if the CBT quest has been started naturally or by some other means, and the setstage in the else block makes it impossible for the player to invalidate most of the flags if the player chooses not to interact with Kel immediately. Hypothetically this could be handled better by breaking Kel's intro dialog into two parts. Currently, CBTSIntroKeldarinAsksPlayerTopic has no attached script, no WalkAway topic, and assumes that the player is aware of Northwatch. If it instead had Kel ask "Pardon me, you look like the traveling sort. Could you help me with some directions?" you can delay having to actually reference any of the flag values until after an attached script runs the above code by forcing the player to either respond "Of course. Directions to where?" or "I overheard you're looking for a Northwatch keep?" or "I'm sorry, I don't have time." The latter of these can also be the Walk Away topic and share a response from Kel, which is scripted to execute the script that deletes the intro Kel record and activates the OnSleep trigger. This guarantees that either the player engages with Kel or ignores him when the flag logic runs and the quest starts gracefully in a way that maximally prevents the player from creating continuity errors.

*brewmasterhal* · May 18

36 minutes ago, lollllllllllnope said:

I haven't actually answered this before, but the answer is likely no--I'm trying to keep the dependencies on this mod to a minimum, and I'm personally don't like snuff enough to put in the work. As I've said before, though, anyone who wants to build off of this mod as a base is more than welcome to do so!

I don't think that snuff is necessary. I haven't looked too deeply into the PDF framework, but it should be possible to set up a few of the devices that aren't guaranteed to be fatal in the torture chamber and do something like: fade to black; force the player into the furniture; fade back in; start the furniture's first phase; wait and show some dialog; fade out again; move the player back to the cross; fade back in again; play dialog and roll for the next torture method. This is the kind of thing that, in theory, is easily implementable as an optional addon for those who want to use Pama's stuff with CBT.

27 minutes ago, lollllllllllnope said:

As for the "tortured for information you don't actually have", I'll admit that you've put much more thought into it than I ever did 😅 I'm not really planning on expanding the current interrogation quest that much farther, because I'd rather move on to other projects (e.g. player enslavement by the Thalmor, or abduction by other factions). Any expansions, patches, or other mods that build on CBT are more than welcome, though! I'm definitely not possessive about it

I'll have to see about updating my CK so I can try working on this if you do decide to move on. In the meantime, I'll continue to work on re-writing the dialog tree to work with the set of flags I've worked out and publish them in this thread, if that's cool with you.

*brewmasterhal* · May 18

Took a shower, had some more thoughts.

As I mentioned in my above post, for players with the Unofficial Patch installed it's actually possible to have Thorald freed on the orders of General Tullius, without any fighting at all. Since it is effectively impossible to play Skyrim with more than a handful of mods without the UP being a requirement, this applies to nearly all players. Taking this path re-contextualizes the entire story of CBT. It would no longer be "how did you break Thorald out?" but "where is Thorald?" and "how did you learn of Thorald?". It should be possible to check for this easily by calling GetDead() on the Thalmor Interrogator NPC who guards Thorald.

For NSFW mode, a Thalmor should express disgust at raping anyone who isn't another Altmer, and should outright refuse to engage with a Khajiit, Orc, or Argonian. It would require a little more work, but when the rape torture is rolled you could play a scene where Kel explains that they're not without mercy and they do reward cooperation, and to prove it they've brought in one of the other prisoners who has been helpful. As a reward, he gets to do whatever he wants with the PC, with the exception that if she dies he will only outlive her by moments. I haven't tried playing as a male, but I assume that the PC takes the female role in the SL scene regardless. Assuming this is the case, the "reward" scene could also be used if it's not desirable to write Kel as gay.

In real interrogations - at least when the police are doing it - if they have proof that the suspect has done something they will not immediately reveal what they know, instead their goal is to get the suspect to incriminate himself by lying about something which appears mundane. Once the suspect has been caught in a lie it forces him to scramble to explain it, placing him off balance and increasing the likelihood of additional mistakes. I'm less familiar with "less legal" interrogation methods, but it seems to me that revealing precisely why the Thalmor kidnapped the player up front is not likely to be the best strategy.

One thing that I know for certain would be tried is the so-called "good cop, bad cop". I would suggest that instead of making a toggle that turns Kel from male to female, use both and let the toggle determine which one is bad cop.

Exploring the first and third points, when the player is first brought to the gaol one of three possible introductions should have occurred. One, the player met Kel and admitted knowing about Northwatch; in this case, Kel should begin by establishing why the player has knowledge of a secret facility. Two, the player met Kel but did not admit knowing anything about Northwatch; in this case Kel needs a different starting point (which will likely depend upon the specific set of flags mentioned in my above post). Three, the player got Thorald out peacefully (intro TBD); in this case, Kel can start with "you entered Northwatch keep with orders directly from General Tullius to release Thorald Gray-Mane..."

I need to think more about how rapidly this can explode into a very large number of INFO records...

Edit: more thoughts
We know that by the end of Diplomatic Immunity, the Thalmor are not aware that the PC is the Dragonborn but they are investigating the matter. On the other hand, by the end of The Fallen the Dragonborn's identity is public knowledge. If the PC gets captured before starting The Throat of the World (but after Diplomatic Immunity), the Thalmor should at least suspect that the PC is working with The Blades, and is probably both a Talos worshipper and the DB. If the PC gets captured after (before The Fallen), the Thalmor should have good evidence that the PC is the DB.

It's actually possible to join the Legion, free Thorald by order of Tullius, and then switch sides by bringing the crown to Ulfric. That would be a very interesting conversation.

In both of these cases (known to be a member of The Blades or the turncloak route - or both), the player is clearly an experienced spy. How this might be used in the context of the mod I don't know yet.

Ultimately, the Thalmor aren't necessarily interested just in Thorald, Avulstein, etc. they should be interested in threats to their power. Having someone assault a secret base and escape with a prisoner - by stealth or blood - undermines them and presents them with a powerful new enemy to deal with. Having someone waltz into that base with orders from one of their allies and take a prisoner from them demonstrates that their power is not absolute. If one of the perpetrators of this event is: a member of the Legion; a Stormcloak; a Blade; a high-level member of some local faction; the Dragonborn; or someone who should be a citizen of the Aldmeri Dominion (Altmer, Bosmer, or Khajiit) then this points to a dangerous conspiracy which needs to be addressed quickly.

Here's a thought that causes a ton of problems: if the Thalmor know the player is the Dragonborn (or if the player uses the Thuum at some point) they will be forced to gag her and continue the interrogation using only yes/no questions... Fortunately, there are plenty of ways to prevent the player from using Shouts and Powers, but we will probably have to add the Runic Collar mod as a requirement.

Edited May 18 by brewmasterhal

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